Q&A: Distressed/PE Associate

Not going to disclose too many details about myself but wanted to give back to the community as the forum was very helpful to my own path.

I went to a semi-target public school. Did a couple of random internships while at undergrad (ranged from a HF to corporate finance/strategy to endowment fund), killed some interview and ended up with a job offer at a private credit gig straight out of college. Honestly, I really just didn't want to do two years of banking so I took a leap of faith and moved to the East coast.

Did more nuanced deals - mostly in the non-sponsored space where we focused on 15%+ IRR deals through a combination of equity kickers, high cash coupon, etc.

After some time there, decided I wanted to focus more on the public side of credit and wanted to look at more distressed and special situations. From there, ended up at a MF doing distressed private equity and credit investments. I'm a year on the job in my new spot and so far it seems like the markets have some what turned in my favor.

Feel free to ask my mostly anything here or DM me, I will try my best to get to everyone

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Comments (82)

  • Intern in IB - Cov
May 4, 2020 - 11:45am
  1. If PE is the end goal, would you reccomend private credit over IB out of undergrad?
  2. What are some resources to learn about distressed PE investing?
  3. How did you interview prep and learn to voice your opinion on investing?
  4. Any advice you have for college students?
Most Helpful
May 4, 2020 - 1:03pm
Intern in IB - Ind:

1. If PE is the end goal, would you reccomend private credit over IB out of undergrad?
2. What are some resources to learn about distressed PE investing?
3. How did you interview prep and learn to voice your opinion on investing?
4. Any advice you have for college students?
  1. No I wouldn't, I would recommend you still do investment banking, the problem is that once you enter in private credit, you'll be somewhat seen as a private credit guy even if youre only 1-2 years on the job. I learned this the tough way as I thought that being straight on the buyside would give me an advantage over most IB kids - turns out that it does, but people will believe your mindset will be tougher to mold given the specific way you look at deals already
  2. it's really Moyer's distressed debt analysis book that i've put my hands on and gotten through - would recommend this one
  3. Well coming straight out of college, I just had to prove I was smart enough and that I could think about a debt investment in a logically way that fit the investment style i was interviewing for - they totally understood that I wasn't coming in with bank training
  4. honestly, have fun, get good grades, and network profusely, especially if you are shooting high or come from a non-target or semi-target background; at the end of the day, you just need a handful of people to recognize your drive
May 4, 2020 - 11:49am

What are the typical red flags that make your team dismiss potential investment cases?

Are there any common denominators in the cases that you invest in?

I don't know... Yeah. Almost definitely yes.

May 4, 2020 - 1:08pm

Anything related to oil and gas right now........ kidding only sorta.

Usually, given the backbone of my seniors and what they have historically had great success investing in are companies that are asset heavy (real estate, industrials, manufacturing, etc.)

As for your first question, could technically dedicate an entire forum to red flags, but if I were to sum it up, the question I ask myself is, "is this a business that I would be ok owning? if this goes from being a trade to an LTO (loan to own), would I be comfortable with that?"

May 4, 2020 - 1:34pm

To expand on this a little bit more:

There's a difference between buying a good business with a shitty balance sheet for cheap and buying a shitty business for cheap

Yes, they are both distressed...but if I right size a good business with a shitty balance sheet, this is a legitimate turnaround and if i right size a shitty business, I still have a shitty business that I'll need to market better to get out of...

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  • Associate 2 in CorpDev
May 7, 2020 - 6:10am

I've always been curious about how credit players compete for asset heavy borrowers - take leverage levels for example, does it come down to how much more comfortable you are vs other lenders on the % LTV to lend at, or do lenders have fundamentally different views of a borrower's asset value?

Essentially, I'm just trying to understand how you achieve an edge over other lenders in these asset heavy deals. Thanks mate

  • Analyst 2 in PE - Other
May 4, 2020 - 11:49am

Wow this is exactly the Q&A I was hoping to see. I followed a similar path to you, joining a NY-based private credit firm out of undergrad at a firm that does senior, mezz, and equity investments mostly in private equity backed deals. Couple questions:

  1. Did you reach out to HH or did they reach out to you? And how did you approach the convo's?

  2. Given that you were already in the buyside how secretive did you have to be for recruiting?

  3. What were your interviews for distressed firms like? Also what type of deals would be the most applicable to list on a resume / discuss for interviews with distressed funds?

  4. What are the best HH for special sits / distressed credit and private equity?

  5. What advice would you give to someone trying to make the same jump as you and do you have any resources that you can share (happy to DM you)?

Apologies in advance for the laundry list of questions, but have been waiting for someone to do a Q&A like this

May 4, 2020 - 1:19pm
  1. Both - but mostly the former; be upfront, tell them that you are interested in a strategy shift and why
  2. very secretive; I imagine your current firm, like my former, had invested a lot of time/money in hiring you straight out of undergrad, they want to hold onto your value for as long as possible
  3. Honestly, pretty hit or miss. I had some firms who really had me analyze public credit docs to firms who just wanted to see if I could do a 3 statement-LBO. I think at the end of the day, these firms realize you are coming from a private credit background and not a traditional RX background so they will tailor their questions to it, but obviously there are firms who are just looking for someone more plug and play (gives me fond memories of interviews with firms like DK/Centerbridge). Focus on more peculiar deals you did, maybe a deal that turned upside down and now you're in RX or bankruptcy, covenant breaches, etc. They don't care so much for the cookie cutter sponsored transactions.
  4. Honestly, I used the entire gamut. I don't think there's a specific HH that is only geared towards special sits (I could be wrong)
  5. It's certainly doable - but there is a lot to prove. The longer you stay in private credit - the more you've pigeon holed yourself into being a "private credit" guy. Stay current in the public credit markets (Reorg/debtwire/etc. are great resources to keep current with anything distressed). Being able to convey visible interest as to why you're interesting in distressed will separate you apart and make your story hold better together as to why you are switching
May 4, 2020 - 12:37pm

How did you recruit for a MF which (presumably) takes only top investment banking analysts? Was your private credit gig at a well-known firm that we'd recognize? And how long into this job did you recruit? (i.e. on-cycle first year, second year, or off-cycle?)

May 4, 2020 - 12:57pm

Thanks for doing this, also interested in moving into distressed PE.

What surprised you the most when you moved across into distressed PE (having seen the credit side of things)?

What is the kind of mandate for your fund and average check size?

Is there a typical playbook in terms of what kind of investments you'll do vs. won't touch in the distressed space?

May 4, 2020 - 2:25pm

Just how complicated some of these transactions can get w/ regards to bankruptcies and restructuring.

Pretty broad mandate, IRR hurdle is 25%. On the equity side, check size is $500mm to ~$1.3b ish

Haha...really anything about the sin categories and oil and gas. oh and grocery stores. Seniors typically shy away from anything they've been burned by before

May 4, 2020 - 1:31pm
  1. Any thoughts on career longevity in the industry? At first glance it seems US distressed firms aren't doing as well as they should in this environment (e.g. Solus) . I know it's still early in the cycle.

  2. What are you usually reading?

  3. Any former equity guys in your team/strategy?

May 4, 2020 - 3:51pm
  1. I know a bunch of firms basically started beefing out their distressed infrastructure since the latter half of last year - I've been told the distressed investing industry is quite small...I haven't put too much thoughts as to what I would want to do after - still figuring that out.

  2. It's pretty busy right now - any reading I do is more information and news about companies and the markets

  3. Not really, the skill set is pretty different

May 4, 2020 - 1:50pm

Really appreciate your time. I'll be doing public credit research this summer so very interested in your thoughts:

1) What is the difference between public and private credit investing? Can you make the jump from public to private credit?

2) Why the shift to public credit? and why not equities?

3) How do you suggest me prepare for my internship? I'll be on the sellside


May 4, 2020 - 3:55pm
  1. its essentially the exact same thing a public equities vs. private equities, except the asset class is different. In one, you'll drive a transaction and the ship (private side), on the other side, you're more beholden to the daily mark

  2. very very difficult transition, especially private credit. Maybe easier when you work in distressed, but i dont know of many people who hopped from private credit to public equities. You might meet some equity funds that like folks with credit backgrounds (i.e. my interview with Millenium before) but its not the norm

  3. just try and keep up with the markets on a broad basis - there's no real reason to fret and they know they'll need to train you. maybe familiarize yourself with some credit documents if you're truly bored

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Cov
May 4, 2020 - 1:54pm

Hey, thanks for doing this. Just a few quick questions:
1. Why did you make the switch to distressed PE as opposed to HF? Put differently how do you stack the two investment structures and what would you recommend to someone trying to enter the distressed world?
2. How do you evaluate the longevity of your job / the field as a whole when we're in a less advantageous part of the credit cycle?
3. What's your workflow when evaluating a brand new investment?
4. What is a breakdown of your responsibilities on the job?
5. How's the lifestyle at your shop?
6. What are your long term plans? How are the exit opportunities in your role with respect to vanilla PE or moving onto the equity side of investing?

Cheers mate

May 4, 2020 - 4:45pm
  1. well i guess i get to see a hybrid, theres the more LTO strategy (PE) and there's the side where I'll look at investments that will be more strictly HF style (trading)
  2. there's always companies that are distressed for whatever reasons, might just be fewer of them to look at unless the market turns
  3. to put simply, generate idea, do diligence, pitch idea, more diligence, IC, follow up confirmation, follow-up IC, invest, then invest more
  4. Both sourcing and executing ideas
  5. Hours are bad right now just because of where the markets are/were in this last stretch
  6. honestly havent given this too much thought yet - maybe a event driven equity hf?
  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
May 4, 2020 - 1:55pm

Thanks for doing this!

Two questions. First, what sorts of resources did you use to prepare for distressed interviews? Anything in addition to Moyer you thought was particularly helpful, certain case studies etc.?

Second, what do you think your prior or current firm would think about candidates with sellside credit structuring experience? Not talking about LevFin or DCM, but more bespoke debt advisory across the capital structure (bank debt down to mezz). Been looking to make the jump but struggling to understand how attractive my skillset is given the unique nature of my experience.

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
May 5, 2020 - 4:49pm

My bad, should've been clearer. We're pretty unique on the street in that we do debt advisory, origination, and execution / underwriting all out of one product group.

So for example clients will come to us asking how to finance an acquisition, or do a leveraged recap, or optimize their cap structure for an upcoming sale. My group is agnostic to type of product (bonds/loans), cap structure, and whether its IG or not; so we'll create a bespoke structure to best meet the situation. We'll lend / underwrite a bit too but mostly aim to syndicate out risk, so there's some exposure to the markets.

I think it's definitely a skillset valuable for credit investing roles (whether distressed or not), I've just struggled with succinctly explaining this to HHs and interviewers, as was the case here. Bank is brand name (BB/EB).

May 4, 2020 - 2:53pm

Thanks for doing this.

1) Do you source deals- if you do can you explain that a little- if not where does your responsibilities start in the pipeline.
2) What are the most important statements/filings and metrics you use to value a distressed company.
3) How can a graduate going into a sell-side distressed research role stay current. I've already read moyer but have had some trouble finding good resources that stay focus on high-yield/distressed news

May 5, 2020 - 11:39am
  1. On the credit side - yes, I do some sourcing through some price tracking screeners I have created as well as market updates from bond traders, reading on Reorg, etc.

  2. Quick and dirty - I look at the create math and lay out the capital structure and identify potential near term catalyst (liquidity crunch, covenant breach, near term maturity, etc.). Then escalate to a senior to decide if its worth spending more time on.

  3. These are paid subscriptions but what I use at work are Reorg/Debtwire/LCD News

May 4, 2020 - 3:58pm

Thanks for doing this! Heading to a EB RX group this summer. Eventually would like to end up in the distressed space.

  • When evaluating distressed strategies and how they differ from one another, any particular tips?
  • As far as the MF's go re: distressed, who do you see as dominate players rather than just "tourists" in the space?
May 4, 2020 - 5:16pm

hey 7hr0wbak, thanks for doing this q&a! super informative and you've got some interesting experience.

I'll be at a BB doing structured products origination this summer and my end goal is private credit at a MF, ideally out of undergrad next year. do you think I'd be able to move over from BB this summer to structured credit post grad? or should I try to rerecruit to lev fin / coverage group and recruit on cycle for credit? how would you try to make the move if you were me?

thanks in advance!

May 4, 2020 - 8:13pm

Thank you for doing this. Are there any ex-lawyers in your distressed PE group? Additionally, does a JD/MBA give you any advantages during recruiting?

May 5, 2020 - 11:57am

There aren't in my group - but that's always a route that fascinated me.

I've interviewed at other funds where members had JD/MBAs (I think Elliot/Centerbridge), I can't imagine it not giving you an advantage while recruiting as we spend so much of our time on the legal aspect of deals, but I don't personally have a concrete example so I'll let others opine.

May 4, 2020 - 10:49pm

I've worked almost two years in Restructuring Consulting, and hoping to eventually break into Distressed Credit or PE. Have had a good experience understanding Distressed Companies, liquidity issues etc.., but don't have the valuation experience that a 2-year IBanker would. Do you have any recommendations in terms of firms that would be looking for this sort of experience? Any advice on how to end up in a role like yours would be extremely helpful. Thanks

May 4, 2020 - 10:56pm

How do you protect for downside risk other than asset/liquidation value? Are there any specific ways you structure the investment for downside (e.g. 1.5 liquidating pref shares etc)

Since in many LTO scenarios, you still need to rely on some type of EBITDA growth for exit and most businesses won't be growthy type on rev side. What are some operating strategies/cost outs you can execute to generate EBITDA uplift?

  • 1
  • Analyst 2 in IB-M&A
May 5, 2020 - 9:28am

Bump on your question re lack of growth to facilitate an exit in LTO scenarios. I have a hard time reconciling the overwhelming % of asset-heavy, older and potentially prone-to-disruption business models with the kind of EBITDA growth you would need to generate an exit opportunity. If not growth, then beyond the initial legal and structural diligence I would imagine there is a strong emphasis on operational expertise at portco level to ensure you can juice out the return you need in lieu of the growth you expect not to generate?

May 5, 2020 - 11:29am

To answer some of your questions:

You both are pretty spot on, there is a heavy emphasis on operational expertise at the portco level (most if not all of my seniors have done an extended stint in consulting at one point or another (before or after grad school)). In simple terms, another way that we often "grow" EBITDA is through tack-on acquisitions. Of course, there's a balance - if you grow too big, it'll be tough for another strategic buyer to buy you out.

Right now is kind of a weird time with COVID-19, so in terms of the cost cutting side, anything and everything is on the table right now. Maybe I'll revisit the question when it all dies down given the unprecedented times.

Structuring is definitely one way to protect yourself. And while I realize this doesn't answer your question fully - the mindset in distressed is that you create for such a low multiple that that in itself is one of the ways you protect yourself.

  • Senior VP in HF - Other
May 5, 2020 - 3:20pm

That's not necessarily the right framework to think about it. Often time the LTO is gonna be in cyclical businesses that had too much leverage and got caught in a downturn over extended. These are the exact type of industrial business models you're referring. Its not so much driving growth, so much as buying at a cheap creation multiple at trough cycles. Removing burdensome interest expense allows the business to continue to reinvest during the downturn and rebound in the cyclical upswing. Reality is some industries have companies with way to much leverage given the cyclicality and that provides opportunities.

  • Associate 2 in PE - LBOs
May 5, 2020 - 1:28am

Hey thanks for doing this.
I'm at MM PE in Asia and want to move to distressed / special sit. PE in U.S. through MBA.

1) My understanding is that distressed / special sit. PEs more focus on structuring, modeling, and reviewing legal docs rather than monitoring portfolio companies. Am I correct?

2) I was admitted to CBS but recently heard that the PE placement at Columbia is weak. What do you think about it?

3) As an international, I need visa sponsorship. Is it rare for the firms in your field to support visa for internationals?

May 5, 2020 - 12:08pm

1) yes, absolutely correct; my current firm just happens to place a significant weight on monitoring portfolio companies as well
2) I honestly cant opine, but will say there are members on my team that went to CBS (they are known for value investing after all) - you should reach out to former alumnis and ask
3) imagine companies have different views on this and also depends on which city you're recruiting for...i imagine a NYC probably has a plethora of qualified candidates for any job but take with a grain of salt - let's be honest, I don't make any hiring decisions

  • Associate 2 in PE - LBOs
May 5, 2020 - 8:31pm

Thank you so much for the reply. Mind ask a few more questions?

1) how to source a deal? - auction vs. proprietary sourcing?
In Asia, many MM shops pursue prop. deal to buy low and it requires strong ppl./comm. skill and deep understanding of regional culture. Grown and educated in Asia, I might not be as competitive as others on these skills. Hope those skills are less important in distressed/special sit. space compared to traditional buyout, but would like to hear your opinion

2) Yes, CBS is well known for its Value Investing Program but what I heard is that the program largely focuses on HF not PE. Anyway, Will reach out to alumnis. Thx for the advice

3) Any city (besides NYC) in your mind having some presence in distressed/special sit. investing?

  • Associate 3 in AM - Equities
May 5, 2020 - 12:19pm

2) Weak in what sense? PE placement among people in the Value Investing program or overall? More people pursue public opportunities than PE at CBS?

  • Associate 2 in PE - LBOs
May 5, 2020 - 8:32pm

What I heard is that ppl in VIP pursues HF career instead of PE. So PE placement at CBS is not as good as HF placement... I might be wrong, Please correct me if I am.

  • Associate 2 in CorpDev
May 13, 2020 - 9:57am

Assoc 2 - I've moved from equity into credit as well in Asia and while I'm settling in alright so far, thought it was interesting that you're also considering / working through a similar move - mind if I pm you some questions? keen to hear your thoughts as well

May 5, 2020 - 8:45pm

Thanks for doing this. Two questions:

  1. What is the differentiator between distressed players? Seems like they all largely have the same information and backgrounds? Does it generally come down to differences in conviction around future performance?

  2. Where do you see distressed going in the next decade? Do you think it is a sustainable source of market beating risk-adjusted returns? People on this forum seem obsessed with distressed investing, but I wonder where the forward-looking appeal really lies versus more growth-focused strategies.

  • 4
May 6, 2020 - 12:46am

Thanks for doing this, very informative.

I know you are at a MF, but would be curious to know of some of the other competitors in the space you see. Think the distressed HFs are a little better known but would like to see who else on the distressed/turnaround PE front you think highly of.

  • Intern in IB - Cov
May 6, 2020 - 9:50am

As a student, how should I learn/study for distressed and SS PE? Seems like most online resources are geared toward typical buyout funds.

May 8, 2020 - 9:45am

Can you please explain how you're hitting a 15%+ IRR?

What's the equity component structure look like?

How do you structure the paydown? Is this bullet debt? or min amort? or something else..?

Are the interest payments fixed? or floating? Are they cash? or PIK?

Which industries actually issue debt like this? Seems crazy expensive.

What's the sweet spot for the size of these facilities?

Sorry if these are dumb questions. I just don't know much about the sector at all, but shocked you're hitting 15%


May 8, 2020 - 11:19am

As an asset class distressed returns not very good overall and most of the big funds returns have been horrible except for a blip in 09-10. Both public and PE. At least in PE you can do other things and get a 2x. On the HF side not so much (HFRI Event Driven and Distressed indices over last 5 years up 3.44% and 3.7%, yes that is not all funds reporting but I have been in this business for 20 years see the returns of most of the top funds and their 5-10 year track records of the best are high single digits a few low double digits which is weighted by the early days when small). It is great to work in, very interesting but too much money chasing too few good assets. When you look at ROIs on a lot of the big investments including the capital losses on initial trading positions and the additional capital that was investedthrough rights offerings and exit financings to recapitalize the businesses and exit BK, they are terrible. That said, you can still make a lot of money with average returns.

Distressed PE at the big funds has not performed well either (Oaketree Shipping disaster, Avenue/GSO energy disasters) and going to get much worse with all the money being raised bidding up asset prices. HF and PE been burned multiple times in sectors like energy and shipping and they keep recapitalizing the businesses instead of letting them fail because no one want to be the first to liquidate and let the others benefit (these sectors do no benefit from consolidation so M&A roll up not a solution) With all the Fed liquidity coming into the system its is going to be even harder this cycle we have more an more zombie companies like Japan since the early 90s. Still good returns to be had in the LMM, but cannot scale bid dollars there, better off starting and SBC fund and getting 10x leverage. FYI, the line we buy "good businesses with bad capital structures" is a lie they tell LPs who are morons. Only junior analysts actually believe that until they see the reality. Most of the time you are buying a mediocre business with a bad capital structure that has been underinvested in for years by the sponsor because there was too much debt and they were extracting fees and dividend recaps for as long as they could and by the time they turn it over to creditors its on life support. But it is easier to make a bad business mediocre, than a good business great so if you can increase EBITDA 10-20% over 3 years and get 1-2x of multiple expansion in the right market still can make a good investment, but not nearly as easy as people who have been int the business 2 years think (no offense, its just we all realize after a time that it is mostly BS)

It used to be that a sector would go into distress and you could buy cheap wait out cycle and make a lot of money, merchant power (calpine, mirant, Texas GenCo) Airlines (DAL, Northwest AA BKs were all very profitable for distressed), Lehman/Madoff/MF Global, Asbestos trades, Grace, Fed Mogul, plastics/packaging after Katrina.

  • Associate 3 in AM - Equities
May 8, 2020 - 2:39pm

This kinda deflates my interest in getting into distressed. Where do you think the best place to be is in finance or credit for a long and successful career (compensation, job security, advancement opportunities, interesting work, etc.)?

May 8, 2020 - 3:12pm

Should not let it deflate your interest. That was not my intention, just some perspective from having been in the business a while. Distressed is very exciting and intellectually stimulating career path. Most HFs regardless of strategy massively under perform the market on a consistent basis and you can still do very well financially while having a rewarding career. PE prospects for returns are dim as well, The big PE firms can barely get 2x overall on their funds. But when you raise $10s of billions it does not matter, plenty to go around.

  • Associate 3 in AM - Equities
May 8, 2020 - 6:29pm

Gotcha. I had this notion that funds often make equity-like returns but that seems to be the exception because they also take heavy losses too. I guess if investor money only expects MSD to HSD overall returns and funds deliver just that, the money will stay.

May 9, 2020 - 11:07am

Don't forget we have QE since 2008 and there has not been a real distressed cycle until now and again price signals are being distorted by Fed intervention. A lot of companies that should have liquidated limped along post 2008-09 because of cheap money and CLOs not wanting to equitize and sponsors kicking in a few bucks to keep their option alive. Most distressed hedge funds, are really credit opportunity funds. In a world of 1-2% interest rates 6-8% is very good in credit.

The 15% IRR stuff is really BS, and IRR is very distorted when used for short term return bench marking. If i buy new issue B HY bond with a 5% coupon at 99 (1pt OID) and then sell it a month later at par I made a 15% IRR, but I cannot repeat that portfolio wide every month.. Or if I buy a 6,5% coupon bond at 95 that matures in 8 months and get par I had a 15% IRR. But am I cannot by $100mm of a $500mm or $200mm of a $1bn issue in the secondary market at the price, my bidding at that size will push it to par. Junior analysts do not think about these things, nor do they understand portfolio management and on top of that everyone in finance lies about returns and how will their investments perform. HSBS Private Wealth, invests in a 25 or so of the prominent distressed and credit opportunity funds and publishes their returns monthly, it is no hard to get your hands on and you will see a vastly different picture than what is painted on this site. Mostly mid to high single digits and these are prominent, big name funds.

May 8, 2020 - 4:40pm

What would someone have to do to go from Commercial Banking to Distressed PE and Credit Investments?

May 13, 2020 - 3:33am

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  • Incoming Analyst in Other
May 13, 2020 - 9:56am

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