Racial favoritism on Wall Street
My friend who works at a BB has constantly told me how much of an impact racial favoritism plays on the street. Jews seem to get promoted fairly easily compared to others. I've also seen large amounts of Asians in the analyst classes but rarely make it to a top PE shop or the MD level. I don't know if it's a social skills thing but it seems like racial favoritism plays a large role. thoughts?
Diversity in Investment banking: Are minorities barred from advancing to senior positions?
At the junior level being normal and likable are the two most important factors. If you have a good personality and are generally pleasant to be around than you don’t open yourself up to prejudices. If someone openly states that they don’t like you for something like race, sex, or religion, ask yourself, is that the kind of place you want to work?
At the senior level, it’s reasonable to believe that those same immutable factors (race, sex, religion,) are a complete non-factor. In senior positions, it is about what you produce for firm i.e. your salesmanship that determines your worth. Handicapping someone because of something they can not change would be counterproductive, to say the least.
Key Takeaways
- A qualified person who is likeable and works hard will always have an opportunity regardless of sex, race, or religion.
from certified user @thebrofessor"
on the MD level, it's all about sales. you can be a WASP but if you can't close, who cares? you could have the strongest accent in the world but if you can close, who cares
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MD level = sales. Has zero to do with race. If you can produce business then you can make it to the top levels of the industry. If you can't produce business then you will be relegated to the sub-MD level. Your skill set in Excel and your math grades in college and gmat score has nothing to do with your ability to produce business.
I think these statements ignore the fact that maybe one race is more heavily represented than the other, and this is reflected in the composition of management. Might be wrong though.
at the end of the day, i dont think race matters much. just work hard.
Agreed.
agreed on MD level, it's all about sales. you can be a WASP but if you can't close, who cares? you could have the strongest accent in the world but if you can close, who cares? that being said, you're not making the distinction between naturalized Asian Americans and Asian Americans who've been embedded in Western culture for a while. this goes back a ways, and I can only speak to the Japanese because that's what I studied at uni.
Japanese business dealings are extremely different than American business, especially in the pace. for example, in Japan it may take hours of socializing before you even begin discussing business, don't know why, this is just what I was taught. I've heard Latin countries are similar in pace. perhaps the lack of first generation Asian Americans in sales positions is because the nature of business dealings in Asia is so polar opposite of that in the northeast, it's just a function of cultures clashing. I'd be willing to be some MDs in NYC would have a hard time closing business in Tokyo.
as for Jews, I think this is just plain incorrect. it used to be the other way around, there were "white shoe firms" that never hired jews in the old days. When Warren Buffett graduated Columbia, Ben Graham wouldn't hire him because he didn't want him to take up a spot that a jewish boy could occupy. Warren, being a WASP, could get a job anywhere on the street whereas jews had more limited options back then. to put it bluntly, I don't know any of my C-suite's religions, nor do I care. as long as they continue to give PWM the resources it deserves, I don't care what they do on Saturdays, Sundays, when they pay towards Mecca, whatever. I also don't see any favoritism one way or the other, at least at my own firm.
bamboo ceiling is still a thing?
Check your privilege.
Jews have an easier time in WS because they are over represented and Jews help Jews out. All this talk of "if u can't sell u can't make it" is true but I would think there are more ppl that can "sell" than there are MD positions, so being Jewish has to undeniably be of assistance when it's you versus some other candidate and the partner hiring (promoting) you is Jewish. This world isn't a meritocracy and in many cases who u know, or what u are, is as/more important than ability. No one can deny this reality.
Jews definitely strongly favor other Jews and anyone who denies this hasn't spent much time around Jews. I don't think there's anything wrong with that either.
To be fair you could substitute any group for "Jews" and that statement would hold.
Also, Jews are historically bankers. Finance and law used to be looked down upon professions that respectable Christians wouldn't do. Also, there was a time when Christians couldn't charge interest on loans for religious reasons (don't know what changed), so Jews naturally became bankers. It turned out to be pretty profitable and animosity started to build.
No way. Indians do not help each other out - frankly my experience has been its quite the opposite where I've been hurt by being Indian and facing Indians... And that's kind of sad.
@"Jamoldo" I have read your comments on WSO threads and quite like them. I agree with your comment above on Indians not helping other Indians but only to an extent. The concept of competition is embedded in them from a very young age so they probably tend not to help their direct colleagues so much. First generation migrants have their own set of issues to take care of - debt at high interest rates, family commitments, confused mind due to change in environment and difficulties faced in adjusting there. Once they secure a role they just can't be bothered to do much for others because the way they think is, 'oh when I was struggling no one gave a shit or I will help only those who did something for me'. This attitude is a weakness and I hope the situation improves. Second generation people have grown listening to hardship stories of their parents and family so tend to think on the lines of making sure they are set in life. I've had my own sad experiences but I try my best to assist other Indians. I would love to do more once I have a proper IB or buy-side gig.
Also, I've definitely seen Indians at a higher level extending a helping hand to juniors who deserve it.
Is it me or a lot of race threads recently...
Not just you.
If schools give minorities 25% less responses than white males then that same study repeated on wall street would likely yield a 50% reduction in responses or more. The same study found that increasing minority representation changes nothing. Even minorities respond more to white males.
Given the importance of networking, that doesn't bode well.
Preparing for a plethora of monkey shit and/or anecdotal evidence.
speaking of anecdotal evidence, what study are you referring to?
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2063742
New York magazine had a really good article on this, it's worth a read. http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-americans-2011-5/index4.html
The study that's being quoted was very poorly conducted, their statistical analysis is abysmal, and I would caution against reading too heavily into it. That being said there are studies with similar conclusions that are better conducted but I'm not sure if they show racism or aversion to lawsuits.
They say Jews have extremely high Verbal IQ. Assuming its true, that probably would give them an edge in stuff like banking or law where good communication etc plays an important role.
That or they just stick together very closely and help each other out.
Either way, check your Jewish privilege
jews are more connected and established in the states, for now. the landscape will be very different given time
In other news, we will all eventually die.
It appears to me that OP is just mad that any amount of quant abilities coupled with a lack social skills won't get you into a MD position.
In my experience, there is a very real tendency at both large corporations and finance firms to promote either the exact same or the exact opposite of whichever manager is already in that position (depending on that person's performance). It's insane to look at the list of Principals / Partners / Executives of certain firms and basically see the same person's picture a dozen times. Others realize what they've been doing isn't working... and that's when you start going in the complete opposite direction, whether it be subconscious or not.
thats simply not true, ur observation made u sound stupid
Every organization with a current jewish ceo or commisioner; has a Jewish predecessor. Jews help jews, but at the end of the day who cares, it's about how hard you work and your ability.
Like Goldman? oh wait
Whatever, Goldman has a long history of Jewish CEOs. You can find an outlier to anything ever stated. You will be pressed to find multiple of the situation.
shit, do I get anything for being Indian?
lool.
It's the Illerminurti, ermagherd
OP - I have a friend who also complains about racial discrimination in his firm. But I know my friend is a moron overall so can't take his comments too seriously. I think it goes both ways.
I haven't read papers and article links posted above but I will never say racism doesn't exist. It exists in every continent. People form the west, not just white but naturalised citizens will struggle to do business in the east. It goes the other way as well.
With regards to promotions, I have noticed a very few ethnic minority bankers at MD level. Lack of these talented people within top spots puzzles me as well. Numbers have definitely improved over past two decades. Ethnic minorities I have seen in the UK who were born in this country are definitely smart and good at sales. Having said that, I haven't worked a larger bank so lack the inside info. as to what makes things tick in times of promotions.
The way I look at it is, screw everything and move on. Work hard and smart. If people have experienced discrimination, they can always do something about it more efficiently when they go higher up the ladder to help others. I've seen tons of people who take diversity very seriously and invest time to help others.
Everything comes down to your ability to be likeable and socialize. Part of this is race because people, generally subconsciously, like socialising with other people with similar interests and senses of humor (which is often different among races). So there absolutely is some racial favoritism but it's no different than favoritism of people with better looks, more "normal" interests, etc. Once you've made it in to Goldman or MS or JPM the things people stress about as youngsters (grades, quant skills, etc) nonlonger matter. Almost everyone will have the baseline ability to do the job well. It's your approach and personality that will set you apart as you move up.
The moral here is be normal. Be likeable. Go out of your way to socialise and be generally humorous. These are the things that will really matter and set people apart.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_American_businesspeople
quite a dominance in jews
Frankly, I find Jews do "stick together", more than other groups (be it race, religion, nationality and etc). But I don't think they blindly support one of their own. I just think it is easier to see a Jew helping a Jew, then an Indian helping an Indian.
At the same time, I have met a lot of people, who later told me they were Jewish, and if not all, most of them have been quite successful individuals, and at the same time (from what I could tell), quite bright as well.
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