What side project or side hustle are you working on?

Kassad's picture
Kassad - Certified Professional
Rank: Almost Human | banana points 7,469

Title says it all.

The best idea I read here recently was making Instagram bots to sell accounts to wannabe celebs. My entrepreneurial pursuits are much more long-term: an automated trading system and an AI-driven drone security system, among others.

So I'm curious: what other lucrative business ideas / get-rich-quick schemes do you monkeys have, if any?

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Comments (177)

Aug 9, 2017

No Limit Texas Holdem Poker is my side hustle

Get rich quick scheme? Hopefully invest $10k and make $8mm in 2 weeks one day at the WSOP Main event

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

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Aug 19, 2017

I see a lot of people who play but never make much. Where do you stand? I'm thoroughly in the "never make much" category simply because I don't know when to fold 'em.

Aug 9, 2017
Kassad:

I see a lot of people who play but never make much. Where do you stand? I'm thoroughly in the "never make much" category simply because I don't know when to fold 'em.

I'm in the don't make much but don't lose much category. I play pretty tight but am aggressive as well. I don't chase or go for one outers just for kicks and have a developed way of playing in tournaments.

However, I play a lot. Probably 5-15 hrs per week after work. My main goals with poker are:

a) Don't lose money
b) Make money

I probably will feel it is time to enter the WSOP Main event when I have increased my stack to well over $10k. I would rather not just buy in (in cash) to the event.

Its a pity though living in the US because I bet I could satellite in via Poker Stars with a few $500 satellites and save $8-$9K. But, its ok, I can 'indirectly' satellite and just play US online sites to ratchet up the funds to enter.

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

    • 1
Aug 9, 2017

That's cool man. I one day hope to play the Main as well. Have a bet with my wife currently that if bonus >= $xxxxxx that she will let me play. That said, I am worried about the endurance required for that event. I can certainly handle two day live events but I'm worried that since you don't make the money until day 4, I am a lock to either spazz off and bust early or mincash.

How would you prepare for it? Just a bunch of live regional MTTs or would you spend a couple weeks at the Rio to get ready?

    • 2
Aug 9, 2017
jankynoname:

That's cool man. I one day hope to play the Main as well. Have a bet with my wife currently that if bonus >= $xxxxxx that she will let me play. That said, I am worried about the endurance required for that event. I can certainly handle two day live events but I'm worried that since you don't make the money until day 4, I am a lock to either spazz off and bust early or mincash.

How would you prepare for it? Just a bunch of live regional MTTs or would you spend a couple weeks at the Rio to get ready?

No, I cant' take that much time off of work. I'd just jump into it.

I can play poker half awake though, last week I worked 9-7pm, left to drive 5hrs to a casino at 8:30pm, got to the casino at 1:30am, sat at the table at 2:00am, played for 2.5hrs on 1/2 with a $200 buy in and left with $475. I drove another 2 hrs after that to go camping/white water rafting (casino was on the way).

I was fairly half dead at the table, but as my body was fatigued, my mind is pretty much on all the time.

You're right, WSOP is a marathon though. I probably would hardly drink alcohol that much, eat really clean, and carry caffeine pills in my pocket and a bag full of red bulls and clean snacks and water. I'd be hitting up the hotel gym every day and be sure to get enough sleep in as well.

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

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Aug 10, 2017

Are there any legal, legit (non-scam) poker sites for US players? Specifically those residing in NYC?

Aug 9, 2017
iggs99988:

Are there any legal, legit (non-scam) poker sites for US players? Specifically those residing in NYC?

Yeah.

I would recommend Carbon Poker first. Second, Ignition Poker (but its anonymous). Black Chip / Americas Cardroom aren't bad. Bet Online has a bad interface, and players are not that great. Intertops poker sucks in volume and the players are bad and the interface is horrible.

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

Aug 10, 2017

Thanks for the recommendations. Do you live in NYC? I thought online poker was banned in NY.

Aug 9, 2017
iggs99988:

Thanks for the recommendations. Do you live in NYC? I thought online poker was banned in NY.

I used to live there. Not anymore.

oh. It looks like Carbon poker is banned in NY.

But, it looks like America's Cardroom is legal - https://americascardroom.eu/us-players-welcome

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

Aug 9, 2017
Kassad:

I see a lot of people who play but never make much. Where do you stand? I'm thoroughly in the "never make much" category simply because I don't know when to fold 'em.

For the record, I did play full time in 2015. 90% online as I didn't live near a casino. It threw off my circadian rhythm greatly. Was cool to make own hours but psychologically was similar to day trading in the fact that you could do well that day or poorly and had to be at peace with it either way.

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

    • 1
Aug 19, 2017

Why did you leave? Having left finance, it's as though I broke a mental boundary. Looking back on it, I wish I'd never have done it, so to me playing poker full time looks like an easy way to enjoy life. I get that there's a skill curve, but anything can be overcome. And it must look great on a resume if you apply to the right company and have the right "extracurriculars".

Aug 9, 2017
Kassad:

Why did you leave? Having left finance, it's as though I broke a mental boundary. Looking back on it, I wish I'd never have done it, so to me playing poker full time looks like an easy way to enjoy life. I get that there's a skill curve, but anything can be overcome. And it must look great on a resume if you apply to the right company and have the right "extracurriculars".

I planned to stay. The flexibility of traveling, mobility, and independence were unlike any other position I had been in. Part of the draw to me in poker is I like statistics, behavioral psychology, and analytics. I felt compelled to do something more meaningful in 2016 so went into neuroscience research and analytics, then switched closer to finance in another analytics position in 2017.

I like having a steady paycheck. I had months of running well in poker and towards the end I seemed to hit bad beats constantly, against all odds. I personally thought it was God nudging me to move on. I still love playing it on the side now and can just take vacation to play the WSOP Main like all the other businessmen.

I look forward to it.

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

    • 1
Aug 10, 2017

I had my fair share of poker and I have to say the biggest "after-effect" for me was that I have lost the sense and value of money. For example, $100 in poker was way differently valued than $100 in RL. It's shocking, in hindsight, about the amounts of money I moved "all-in" with that would have never been used in that way in RL. That was a pretty bad negative effect for me. Besides that, as a hobby or side-hustle, poker is fun -- you just need to know how to manage your bankroll because that can eat you alive if you don't control yourself.

Isaiah - you mentioned playing 1/2, have you tried 2/5? It's a different animal

    • 1
Aug 9, 2017
seville:

I had my fair share of poker and I have to say the biggest "after-effect" for me was that I have lost the sense and value of money. For example, $100 in poker was way differently valued than $100 in RL. It's shocking, in hindsight, about the amounts of money I moved "all-in" with that would have never been used in that way in RL. That was a pretty bad negative effect for me. Besides that, as a hobby or side-hustle, poker is fun -- you just need to know how to manage your bankroll because that can eat you alive if you don't control yourself.

Isaiah - you mentioned playing 1/2, have you tried 2/5? It's a different animal

I despise cash games so only play 1/2 when I can't play anything else.

2/5 is pretty baller. I'm not a high roller or anything lol.

When I play 1/2, I see people bet 30,50,80 preflop. I can't imagine 2/5....

What do you buy in at in 2/5?

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

Aug 10, 2017

Buy in depends on the casino -- some cap at $500 and some cap at $1000. Typical preflop bet is $40-60 but can go up to $100~200. Typical preflop bet for 1/2 is $10~20. Way more adrenaline at 2/5 for sure.

Aug 10, 2017

I played poker professionally for 6 years (college dropout who went back) and now work in RE PE. Poker is extremely unattractive these days and not really worth getting into if your expectation or long term desire is to make a living from the game. People are extremely talented at games above $2/5 and in mtts. I played the World Series of Poker main event in 2008 and 2009, it was a exponentially easier back then even though in those years it was much much more difficult than 2003-4. In my opinion, much of the sexiness in poker is being taken out of the game as computer solvers get better and better at coming up with what it means to play perfectly. It was much more fun in the old cowboy days.

Funny hearing you guys spell out the differences between 1/2 and 2/5...in the old days people at 2/5 were beyond terrible, you had to get up to 10/20nl+ to find good players and even then everyone had a bunch of holes in their game. The last time I went to Vegas during the Series was 2011, shortly after black Friday, and it was starting to get very noticeable how things were changing, as there were 5/10nl games that seemed completely unbeatable, whereas 10/20nl was soft the summer before.

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Aug 9, 2017
Net Work:

I played poker professionally for 6 years (college dropout who went back) and now work in RE PE. Poker is extremely unattractive these days and not really worth getting into if your expectation or long term desire is to make a living from the game. People are extremely talented at games above $2/5 and in mtts. I played the World Series of Poker main event in 2008 and 2009, it was a exponentially easier back then even though in those years it was much much more difficult than 2003-4. In my opinion, much of the sexiness in poker is being taken out of the game as computer solvers get better and better at coming up with what it means to play perfectly. It was much more fun in the old cowboy days.

Funny hearing you guys spell out the differences between 1/2 and 2/5...in the old days people at 2/5 were beyond terrible, you had to get up to 10/20nl+ to find good players and even then everyone had a bunch of holes in their game. The last time I went to Vegas during the Series was 2011, shortly after black Friday, and it was starting to get very noticeable how things were changing, as there were 5/10nl games that seemed completely unbeatable, whereas 10/20nl was soft the summer before.

Yeah it could be compared to Warren Buffet being able to spot large margins of safety back in the day and having the markets become so efficient. Unfortunately, I only learned poker in 2014, well after PokerStars left the US, where players were making $10-20K+/month.

Did you cash in the WSOP Main in 2008 or 2009? Did anyone stake you?

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

Aug 10, 2017

Solid comparison. I didn't cash in the ME either year that I played but have cashed in other WSOP events, though I didn't play many. My main game was playing heads up cash games on PS, FTP, and UB, where I played 1/2-5/10nl depending upon what kind of action I could get. Live I've played up to and including 25/50nl with an ante, but the highest I regularly played live was 10/20nl. I got staked for the WSOP my first year (by durrrr actually, even though we never met) and then just sold some pieces at markup the second year, putting up the rest myself. In hindsight, my poker career would have been a ton more lucrative if I just stuck to grinding online and didn't waste money on live poker trips, but I guess you only get to be young once.

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Aug 9, 2017
Net Work:

Solid comparison. I didn't cash in the ME either year that I played but have cashed in other WSOP events, though I didn't play many. My main game was playing heads up cash games on PS, FTP, and UB, where I played 1/2-5/10nl depending upon what kind of action I could get. Live I've played up to and including 25/50nl with an ante, but the highest I regularly played live was 10/20nl. I got staked for the WSOP my first year (by durrrr actually, even though we never met) and then just sold some pieces at markup the second year, putting up the rest myself. In hindsight, my poker career would have been a ton more lucrative if I just stuck to grinding online and didn't waste money on live poker trips, but I guess you only get to be young once.

hahahahaha Tom Dwan staked you!! that's awesome. He must have been early 20s. That's so young. That guy plays INSANE. Especially high roller cash game bluffs. Greatest video though was when he had the 67 nut straight vs Phil Ivey. lolol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO43txmXNQ4 / you just know Ivey thought he was pulling the typical durrrrr heavy bluff, but he wasn't .... which is a great thing about his style.

Yeah, as anyone with a finance background, I think incorporating the full cost of the trip + entry ticket is a real factor in keeping positive profits overall. Plane tickets and hotels add up in cost for anything but high stakes.

I heard LA is a great city to grind it out in person though, especially as the main alternative to Vegas in the US. I surf and snowboard, so LA is a big draw to me. I almost moved out there this year (interviewed 5 times for corporate positions, but ended up staying on the east coast).

Do you still play online? What sites do you use?

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

Aug 10, 2017

He staked me BC he did full time staking for a close friend of mine who told him he should invest in me for the ME. I think he had like 30 horses in it that year. The rumors on Tom aren't very good these days, seems he owes some important poker world people significant money in addition to skipping on his challenge with jungleman. Just goes to show how quickly things in poker can change. Regardless of how he's doing today, his run up was incredible, especially back then when it was more of the wild west and you had to come up with your own theories and ways to test them. Things are much less like that now which is why I said poker is so much less sexy than it used to be.

It wasn't really the travel cost, I would just spend loads and didn't love grinding on the trips. I thought about moving to LA in 2009 to incorporate more live play, but ultimately didn't and I think I'm glad for it (also an east coaster). I do love SoCal and need to live there someday though.

I don't really play any poker at all now, certainly not online, it faded pretty quickly for me after black Friday. I am from Pittsburgh and was living there at the time, so I was playing a lot in the casino shortly after BF, but I also only had 1 year left on school at that point and really wasn't enjoying the live poker as the loss of online was very emotionally difficult since it was such a life change given that online. poker was my job and favorite hobby.

    • 1
Aug 10, 2017
Net Work:

He staked me BC he did full time staking for a close friend of mine who told him he should invest in me for the ME. I think he had like 30 horses in it that year. The rumors on Tom aren't very good these days, seems he owes some important poker world people significant money in addition to skipping on his challenge with jungleman. Just goes to show how quickly things in poker can change. Regardless of how he's doing today, his run up was incredible, especially back then when it was more of the wild west and you had to come up with your own theories and ways to test them. Things are much less like that now which is why I said poker is so much less sexy than it used to be.

It wasn't really the travel cost, I would just spend loads and didn't love grinding on the trips. I thought about moving to LA in 2009 to incorporate more live play, but ultimately didn't and I think I'm glad for it (also an east coaster). I do love SoCal and need to live there someday though.

I don't really play any poker at all now, certainly not online, it faded pretty quickly for me after black Friday. I am from Pittsburgh and was living there at the time, so I was playing a lot in the casino shortly after BF, but I also only had 1 year left on school at that point and really wasn't enjoying the live poker as the loss of online was very emotionally difficult since it was such a life change given that online. poker was my job and favorite hobby.

You must have had a HUGE bankroll if you played 10/20NL regularly. Do you mind if I ask what your bank roll was? Did you have a very structured plan in terms of strictly using X amount of money on poker, or was it just more of 'go with the flow' style? Which casinos did/do you usually play in? Have you played in Borgata @ AC?

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Aug 9, 2017
seville:
Net Work:

He staked me BC he did full time staking for a close friend of mine who told him he should invest in me for the ME. I think he had like 30 horses in it that year. The rumors on Tom aren't very good these days, seems he owes some important poker world people significant money in addition to skipping on his challenge with jungleman. Just goes to show how quickly things in poker can change. Regardless of how he's doing today, his run up was incredible, especially back then when it was more of the wild west and you had to come up with your own theories and ways to test them. Things are much less like that now which is why I said poker is so much less sexy than it used to be.

It wasn't really the travel cost, I would just spend loads and didn't love grinding on the trips. I thought about moving to LA in 2009 to incorporate more live play, but ultimately didn't and I think I'm glad for it (also an east coaster). I do love SoCal and need to live there someday though.

I don't really play any poker at all now, certainly not online, it faded pretty quickly for me after black Friday. I am from Pittsburgh and was living there at the time, so I was playing a lot in the casino shortly after BF, but I also only had 1 year left on school at that point and really wasn't enjoying the live poker as the loss of online was very emotionally difficult since it was such a life change given that online. poker was my job and favorite hobby.

You must have had a HUGE bankroll if you played 10/20NL regularly. Do you mind if I ask what your bank roll was? Did you have a very structured plan in terms of strictly using X amount of money on poker, or was it just more of 'go with the flow' style? Which casinos did/do you usually play in? Have you played in Borgata @ AC?

I've heard the general rule is use a max of 10% of your bankroll for a buy in.

if 10/20 buy in is $5K, a conservative amount would be a $50K bankroll.

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

Aug 10, 2017

I think in general 10% is a bit risky, although the example you're suggesting is a 250bb buy-in so maybe not too bad. I think a good general rule would be to have 3000bbs at a bare minimum, but all of this is dependent upon your life situation. If you live at home with your parents and know someone who can stake you if you go bust, taking shots and being aggressive can be a great idea. On the other hand, if your poker playing is supporting a family and bills, not so much.

Aug 14, 2017

Interesting. I play after work about 3 or 4 or so hours a week and want to go deeper. How do you view and manage your bankroll on a principle level? I have a friend who dropped out of college to play pro, and after three or four years playing in Vegas he managed to separate the two in his head quiet well. He claims it's the only way he's able to continue playing full time and not jump out a window when he loses a $30,000 hand. I already have a hard time stomaching much less of a loss than that...

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Aug 10, 2017

Greatly depends on your life situation. Tell me more about yourself, single?, debt?, bills?, etc. When you say go deeper, do you mean playing full-time or just becoming a weekend warrior at the local casino?

Aug 14, 2017

Single, graduated and started working full time about a year ago. Most definitely weekend warrior at local casino or even online, but I want to dedicate at least 10+ hours a week and eventually make it a real side hustle rather than a hobby. No debt besides a car loan, I rent and work in a affluent SoCal secondary market with pretty easy access to casinos having multiple reservations not too far away.

Aug 10, 2017

Glad to hear weekend warrior and not full-time pro as I think that's very unattractive these days. I'd start by signing up for either upswingpoker or runitonce and absorbing as much video content as you can. From there, I'd start playing very small stakes online, even just like $.25/.50. Start with one table and work up to 3-4 if you're able - this should be good practice for you. While doing this, I'd continue to dabble at live poker as you currently are. See where things go from there, if you're still loving it, keep playing more and hire a coach. If that goes well and you keep improving, hire a better coach. Keep repeating this cycle until you're playing for nosebleed stakes. Anything short of really really high stakes at live poker is going to equal a miserable existence if you ever have the desire to do it for a living. The life of a $5/10nl grinder is fucking dog shit once you get past the honeymoon phase with poker.

    • 1
Aug 24, 2017

Anyone play cash games in LA? I am moving from Seattle to LA in a few weeks and am curious about the different casinos. Mostly have been playing 2/5 but have started to play larger stakes 5-5 / 5-10. Was crushing it here in Seattle during my 2 years win rate of 9 BB / HR. Been playing 20-30 hours a week.

Aug 9, 2017
Kassad:

Why did you leave? Having left finance, it's as though I broke a mental boundary. Looking back on it, I wish I'd never have done it, so to me playing poker full time looks like an easy way to enjoy life. I get that there's a skill curve, but anything can be overcome. And it must look great on a resume if you apply to the right company and have the right "extracurriculars".

If youre seriously considering spending time going into poker, I would recommend playing a lot of hands for free first on PokerStars.

Then go to a paying site/casino and play low stakes. Not to win, but just to keep your head above water, avoid decreasing your stack, focus on increasing your stack through consistent winnings, and begin to find what games and venues make you the best net profits.

Net Work sounds like he focused on cash games, but not everyone is good at cash games. I'm actually quite shabby at cash games.

There are basically three categories of No Limit Texas Holdem competitive poker.

a) Cash Games
b) Sit and Gos
c) Tournament play

Find what you're good at and go from there. When I played full time, I focused a lot on tournaments, but used Sit and Gos to give me constant cash flow to plow into the tournament fees, as tournaments are high variance and the time spent playing doesn't always equal a good $$$/hr unless you make final 2 tables or final table. I'd typically play 4 screens or more on 1-2 large monitors. If you only have your 42" TV screen (or the bigger the better), you can run an HDMI to your computer and most platforms will let you run 6 games comfortably on the screens. I typically don't like to play more than 6, but a few of the top online pros will run some ridiculous amount like 20 tiny games.

I'd start out with only 1 screen though, then go to 2 and go from there depending on your comfort level. Typically your win percentage will go down slightly with the more games you play, but if you're a consistent and skilled player, your $$$/hr should increase with a lower win percentage but higher profits.

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

    • 1
Aug 10, 2017

Glad to know I'm not the only one with this bucket list, hope to make it there one day

Aug 22, 2017

Thats awesome! I'm a average poker player and want to do the same. How did you go about building your bank roll when you first started?

Aug 10, 2017

Was a lot easier when online poker was around

Aug 22, 2017
Aug 9, 2017

gonna make shirts that say funny shit
sell em to folks

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

    • 3
Aug 9, 2017

I have a really great idea for a side business that a couple b-school buddies of mine have said they would join if I launch it, but I am entirely too risk averse to start my own business. It's a shame since I'm pretty confident it would get snap funded and be a great business long-term, and these guys are legit operational wizards, but I'm scurred...

    • 1
Aug 9, 2017

so what is it then you pansy

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

    • 11
Aug 19, 2017

Are you going to tell us the idea? I have a bunch of ideas I don't talk about, they're under the "stoner talk" category in my notebook.

    • 4
Aug 9, 2017
Kassad:

Are you going to tell us the idea? I have a bunch of ideas I don't talk about, they're under the "stoner talk" category in my notebook.

Yeah I probably won't share it because I'm worried it would get scooped. Let's just say it involves disrupting a market that is highly fragmented, with huge pricing inefficiencies, that provides a necessary service. It is definitely not sexy but could be tremendously profitable.

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Best Response
Aug 19, 2017

You just described, quite literally, every single startup idea on the market today. Good job.

    • 17
Aug 9, 2017

haha fair enough. The beauty of it is, there is really no one going after it (yet). At least nobody with decent tech or an operations focus. I expect that to change in the next few years and I will think to myself "that could've been me..." Meanwhile I will continue to slave away building dcf's and reading earnings transcripts.

Aug 9, 2017

its fucking drycleaning isnt it
i always say, no way those chinamen are running an efficient operation. if a few families could team up... create some synergies... brand name... where do you get your bullshit drycleaned? THE WHOLE FOODS OF DRYCLEANING

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

    • 7
Aug 10, 2017

why not just tell us then? better it get scooped up by us than someone else; keep it in the WSO family

    • 1
Aug 9, 2017

I thought it was a quote from Silicon Valley. I thought he was being funny.

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

    • 1
Aug 9, 2017
jankynoname:
Kassad:

Are you going to tell us the idea? I have a bunch of ideas I don't talk about, they're under the "stoner talk" category in my notebook.

Yeah I probably won't share it because I'm worried it would get scooped. Let's just say it involves disrupting a market that is highly fragmented, with huge pricing inefficiencies, that provides a necessary service. It is definitely not sexy but could be tremendously profitable.

Sometimes what seems like a pricing inefficiency is only a reflection of illiquidity or high transaction fees.

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

Aug 18, 2017
jankynoname:
Kassad:

Are you going to tell us the idea? I have a bunch of ideas I don't talk about, they're under the "stoner talk" category in my notebook.

Yeah I probably won't share it because I'm worried it would get scooped. Let's just say it involves disrupting a market that is highly fragmented, with huge pricing inefficiencies, that provides a necessary service. It is definitely not sexy but could be tremendously profitable.

Waiting for @Angel Molester" to chime in on disrupting.

'I'm jacked... JACKED TO THE TITS!!'

Aug 18, 2017

UbEr for SEX DUNGEONS

Aug 9, 2017

In the process of starting a business selling something a lot of my friends are into.

I also sell things on Ebay and Amazon. I order from China and then resell larger in-demand items, whose shipping don't cut much into my margins. I'm making pretty good money from it, and have about 500 things listed now, so things are selling all the time. The competition is just ridiculous, but if you're willing to spend hours and hours finding and researching a viable product where you can sell for less than competitors and still at least double your investment, then it's worth doing.

Aug 10, 2017
SmartThinker:

In the process of starting a business selling something a lot of my friends are into.

I also sell things on Ebay and Amazon. I order from China and then resell larger in-demand items, whose shipping don't cut much into my margins. I'm making pretty good money from it, and have about 500 things listed now, so things are selling all the time. The competition is just ridiculous, but if you're willing to spend hours and hours finding and researching a viable product where you can sell for less than competitors and still at least double your investment, then it's worth doing.

Wow, I thought that market was already totally saturated. Do you mind if I ask: are your warehouse/shipping operations outsourced? Or are you keeping piles of stuff in a garage somewhere? As an outsider, I'm curious how that works.

    • 1
Aug 9, 2017

The market is very saturated, and it can be discouraging at times, but there's definitely still money to be made for those who are willing to really dig in and spend hours researching possible products. I had one of my friends, who has made a couple hundred thousand form the platform, show me the ropes, so I may have had an edge starting out. As of right now, I'm pretty much keeping piles of stuff in my garage and having my little brother ship things out.

I don't really want to say what product areas I've had success in, but there are still certain products where I can sell for about three times what I pay for them, or at least twice the amount I pay, and still be the lowest-price seller, and still get at least a sale a day. I've also lately had success with top-selling items that have huge demand because of celebrity influence.

Aug 9, 2017

Are you using Alibaba or Ebay's similar service? I looked into doing that with China crap but couldn't find anything that would work better than what I was already doing (clothes mostly and Amazon and Home Depot return pallets I'd buy).

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

Aug 9, 2017

Alibaba definitely sells the cheapest things in terms of item cost, but I don't use Alibaba, because I'm not pushing out the kind of volume that makes it worthwhile after the cost of clearing it through customs, import tax, and shipping cost.

To illustrate this, let's say I buy 60 of an item, or $300 worth, that I can then flip for $1000. But then I have to spend money on shipping to the customer, which is going to be at least $100-150., and then another $200-300 on taxes and shipping, and then wait a month or two for the items to sell, and then once they do, Ebay and Paypal take out their fee. This is not worth doing. If I were buying 1,000 or more of the item, then it'd probably be worth it, because the cost of taxes do not scale with increases in quantity, and I would be getting the cheapest price per item.

What do I use? Mainly AliExpress, a company that offers free ePacket shipping from China, as the shipping cost is subsidized by the government. Then I can buy $300 worth of stuff that can flip for $800, and I don't pay at all for shipping to my home. Then I just pay for shipping to the customer.

Although, I try not to buy things where I need to sell X number of items to break even, with one or two exceptions. I like selling higher-priced things where I make 3x my initial investment with a single sale, and where shipping does not cut much into my margins.

tl;dr I wouldn't use Alibaba unless I'm making really large orders.

    • 2
Aug 10, 2017

Do you mind going into depth as to what it is that you do?

You don't need to tell us the products you make money in, just how you even buy something and then sell it. I'm pretty interested.

    • 2
Aug 11, 2017

What value do you add to the product that allows you to triple your profit? Whats stopping customers from buying it for what you're buying it for? I can't imagine you get a discount like that for the small bulk amount you buy

    • 1
Aug 9, 2017

Honestly, I would give examples, but I don't want people stealing what I do. I will say that you would be surprised how cheap things are sold for on this site.

What value do I add? I spend hours sorting through suppliers from China, and finding legitimate suppliers who sell high quality items. Most customers don't want to do this, much less give their credit card information to someone on this platform. If you go onto sites where people discuss importation, one of the most common questions is, "What's stopping customers from buying it for what you're buying it for?" Most customers don't know about these platforms, think they're untrustworthy, and think ordering from them sounds complicated. It's a lot easier to buy something off Amazon. I mean, the other day, I needed a new backpack, and I bought a nice full-grain leather one for literally $20 off one of these platforms, and it's actually pretty high quality. The price you can get things for on these platforms isn't quite as good as Alibaba, when you're ordering 10,000 of an item, but it's pretty good.

Aug 10, 2017

Got it, so basically what you're doing is buying from Chinese suppliers, importing to America, and then reselling on Amazon?

Aug 9, 2017

Yeah, exactly.

Aug 11, 2017

You post the product on Amazon? But don't people expect really quick shipping? How do you overcome the really lengthy shipping of ali express when they send it to the buyer?

Also, does Amazon cover your shipping cost when the buyer has Amazon prime?

Aug 9, 2017

I don't drop-ship. I send it to myself first. Slightly lower margins since I have to pay for domestic shipping, but obviously having shipping take 3+ weeks would be a recipe for disaster.

And no, since I'm an individual seller and not Amazon.

    • 1
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Side-by-side comparison of top modeling training courses + exclusive discount through WSO here.

Aug 9, 2017

painting and photography

Aug 9, 2017
metronorthdude:

painting and photography

Yeah I have dabbled in that as well.

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

    • 1
Aug 10, 2017

Call me boring but I like to try and find and really thoroughly research 1-2 big public equity positions a year. I like to write my own detailed memo and send it to a few trusted friends I respect to rip it apart.

I have a secret desire to build enough of a track record that if I ever wanted to just say 'screw it' I could take my money + raise $5M - $10M in AUM do manage and grow via public, debt and private investments.

Will that ever happen - unlikely. But trying to hold myself to doing a thoroughly researched investment in my free time is hard and I like to try and force myself to do it.

    • 2
Aug 10, 2017

Boooorrrinnggggg! Just kidding, good luck!

Aug 15, 2017

if I were you, I'd just invest your own money and then start a newsletter. so much less compliance versus raising outside capital

Aug 10, 2017

Ecommerce business. Pretty stream-lined & I never have to touch merchandise.

Aug 10, 2017
cabbagecorpIPO:

Ecommerce business. Pretty stream-lined & I never have to touch merchandise.

Everyone here wants details

Aug 10, 2017

I private labeled a batch of mixed products via cheap Chinese manufacturing. Chinese Manufacturer --> 3PL --> Consumer. Too many players in the space now, but a few years ago there was a lot of money to be made. I knew a few guys doing $1-10 mm in sales annually w/ 2-3 products & it was all passive income once you established your brand and commercialized a product.

Aug 10, 2017
cabbagecorpIPO:

I private labeled a batch of mixed products via cheap Chinese manufacturing. Chinese Manufacturer --> 3PL --> Consumer. Too many players in the space now, but a few years ago there was a lot of money to be made. I knew a few guys doing $1-10 mm in sales annually w/ 2-3 products & it was all passive income once you established your brand and commercialized a product.

That's fantastic. Feels like I missed the boat on this but it's still cool to hear about it. Curious what logistics companies you like?

    • 1
Aug 10, 2017

Machine Learning project to match customers and investment opportunities.

    • 1
Aug 10, 2017

Also, being a developer, I've come across so, so many b-school "idea" bros.
Goes something like this:

"We have this kick-ass disruptive idea, there's nothing like it! We're talking with angel investors (i.e dad), and want to move quickly. Looking for a full-stack developer / CTO. Can't tell you much more than that. We'll give you 5% ! No salary yet tho, need to expand it"

I f'in loathe the "idea guys". No technical skills, maybe some family connections for money, no previous experience. And they always want like 40% of total equity. The startup field is littered with these types.

    • 5
Aug 10, 2017

Ladies too, there's an increasing amount of "idea chicks" who I suppose are bff's with the "idea bros".

The "idea chicks and bros" are heavy on jargon, always talk about start up culture, and constantly manage to use the names of prominent tech companies even in trivial conversations about what to have for lunch. Also they're convinced of their brilliance, which is what makes them impossible to work with....getting basic points across is like trying to convince a political partisan of when the other side has a good idea, huge pain in the ass. If I hear one more moron tell me that block chain / Kanye Koin / jerkmeoffKoin is going to replace my bank by the end of the quarter, I'm going to have to choke them. Or wait, I can make an app to do that.

I'm waiting for tech bubble 2.0 to blow the f*** up already and knock some common sense back into people.

    • 6
Aug 17, 2017

This, so much. Dude I joined this Facebook group called Austin Startups and left in about 5 minutes. No actual discussion about business plans, just bickering about male aggression (wtf?), people linking to their shitty Medium.com motivational blog posts, and occasionally you'd get a business idea but it's really of the lemonade stand variety, meaning a service that's cute but isn't an actual scalable business.

Aug 10, 2017

I am currently working with some professors on trying to prove that jacking off cures hangovers.

    • 12
Aug 19, 2017

Finally, someone tackling the real issues

Aug 14, 2017

How can I invest all of my net worth in this

Aug 28, 2017

Are you jacking the professors off or are they jacking you off? Or maybe it's a double Dutch rudder situation.

    • 1
Aug 10, 2017

Trying to see if I can find a bartending gig on the weekends to go with my full-time job.

Aug 11, 2017

Not really a lucrative business idea or get rich quick scheme but when I was waiting to start my first FT job after college I wrote research for Wonder.com. I guess it's used by some reputable companies. If you do it like 10-20 hours a week you could probably pull in an extra $100-$300. Just depends on how quickly and efficiently you can write the reports.

Aug 11, 2017

An idea I had from a while ago but building a website where people can sell their business online (assets, building, etc).

Aug 15, 2017

would love to be a personal trainer on the side, but being a gigolo just pays so much better.

    • 1
Aug 14, 2017

My buddy started a cryptocurrency udemy course.

Followed it up with a cryptocurrency youtube channel and twitter.

Turned his initial 10k investment into 350k+, and now he gets paid by these new crypto coins to promote their ICOs and give presentations on the promise of their technology. His side gig is basically pulling in more money than his main gig now.

On the one hand, i think crypto is insane and frankly I dont understand it so I try not to have any part in it. On the other hand, a 3500% return in two years is legendary and im mad jelly.

    • 4
Aug 18, 2017

bitcoin/altcoin trading

Aug 25, 2017

My friend runs a website and lives in very expensive high rise in NYC. I took his idea and put it into a different niche. Second month in and it's harder than i thought but there's some progress. I can dream right? -- At least it's a legitimate shot.

My second idea is to freelance w/ a very high paying skill. I need to do a bit more work and solicit clients, but the outline is there. Plenty of people do this but I need to get on this more. No I won't tell you what it is.

However my career has been good to me so far and I don't think I would leave even if unless one of the above started to make real money.

Aug 28, 2017

Think of a way to monetize your hobbies. I know someone who was a career industrial mechanic. A real genius with tools. He now goes to garage sales and tool meets to find tools that are underpriced either because the seller doesn't know what it is/does (might have been leftover from a father who passed away), or because the tool has something wrong with it (this guy, as I said is a genius with tools and is able to quickly find out what's wrong with these things and fix them easily). Hugely profitable and amazingly high demand.

What are your hobbies? Do you like music - teach lessons or repair instruments. Do you like math - tutor kids or provide outsourced CFO services. Do you like sports - start a training bootcamp (do it outside in a public park - almost no costs). Like getting drunk - start a bar crawl. Lot of these ideas are just simply turning your hobby into a service.

Sep 3, 2017

Heres an interesting thread from a few years ago about a guy that bought a billboard/advertising company. I've tried messaging him in the past to see how it was going but to no avail. Billboard advertising is probably still relevant even if social media advertising is in the public spotlight just now, people are still driving and need to look at that shit whether they like it or not. Think I heard that one from Gary vaynerchuk.

https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/my-story-th...

Sep 3, 2017

From experience the more successful side hustles come from an idea, rather than the actual desire to start a business.

Sep 3, 2017

What are your interests?

An uncle of mine was really in to cars and bikes, so he would go and find mangled bikes from accidents and take the parts and ship them to germany and make $$$ off of those. Hed also go to the midwest and buy old cars, fix them up and sell them off.

"...all truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

  • Schopenhauer
Sep 3, 2017

I think I have a great idea for website it's (A) very unique and (B) definitely useful to the population at large. It would also be very useful/valuable to the news/media industry.
....but its extremely intensive man-hour wise - maybe that's why it hasn't been done. (It requires a panel of people pouring over on average 60,000 pages of information throughout the year.)

Sep 3, 2017
imnottheonlyone:

I think I have a great idea for website it's (A) very unique and (B) definitely useful to the population at large. It would also be very useful/valuable to the news/media industry.
....but its extremely intensive man-hour wise - maybe that's why it hasn't been done. (It requires a panel of people pouring over on average 60,000 pages of information throughout the year.)

Was this meant to be a cliffhanger?

twitter: @CorpFin_Guy

Sep 3, 2017

Let's hear it.

Sep 3, 2017

I have a small 1BR condo in the downtown core of my city, and rent it out on Airbnb. The difference in IRR versus a long-term rental is insane. Cap rates are so low to the point where it is nearly impossible to find a property and generate positive monthly cash flow (assuming you leverage it 70-80%). On the other hand, with Airbnb, you can easily be positive monthly cash flow in slow months, and come summer time, you can clear 2-3k per month in net cash flow on top of all expenses (mortgage, maintenance, taxes, wifi, cable, hydro, etc).

I would definitely consider it a possibility. Since you're working 50-60 hours a week, you'd likely have to outsource the management of the property (usually for 10-20% of your gross revenue).

Sep 3, 2017

Do you list on Airbnb yourself or is there a third party who takes care of it all?

Sep 3, 2017

I have a lot of free time since I am a student, so I do it myself. There are many short-term rental property managers out there that will take care of the entire listing for a fee (10-20%).

However, when I start my job in May, I will be moving back into this condo (as there is no way I'd be able to juggle the property and a job).

Sep 3, 2017

Do you think the ecoomics work out if you have an outside manager?

Sep 3, 2017

100%. I've done the math. IRR still significantly higher than LT rental.

Sep 3, 2017

What kind of utilization rate do you need to come out ahead on Airbnb in your city?

Sep 3, 2017

It's not really a function of utilization rate. The demand is there. Its just that demand varies by season. So in my experience so far, my occupancy rate has always been above 98% per month. However, in the winter times (where demand is low), I typically have to reduce my nightly rate.

Sep 3, 2017

Interesting thanks.

Sep 3, 2017

Are you in a high COL city though? In lower COL cities, shouldn't you be able to generate positive CF even at ~75%? Not a RE guy, but curious.

Sep 3, 2017

Yeah COL is high and cap rates at 3%.

Sep 3, 2017

This is solid input. I'm torn between going the Airbnb route vs long-term tenants. Airbnb so far appears quite a bit more attractive, but also significantly more time-consuming. I'm in a "secondary city" so COL isn't as high as it is in NY, SF, Boston, Chi, etc.

Has anyone juggled a 50-60hr/week job and had property rentals on the side? Any input would be appreciated.

Sep 3, 2017

Does your "business on the side" demonstrate anything that people in IB are looking for? If yes, then yes; if no, then no.

PS- your post was vague and lacked specifics.

"I'm not sure what the four 9's do, but the ace, I think, is pretty high."

Sep 3, 2017

Well, to be more specific, I worked for Fedex Kinko's 3 years and am now working part time at The Home Depot and doing an internship. I feel that this side business demonstrates entrepreneurial and communication skills. I am not looking to get into IB, but am looking to get into Asset Management/Equity Research.

Sep 3, 2017

Finance employers will look for lots of things: teamwork skills, communication skills, familiarity with computers, writing ability, time management, etc..

Virtually any previous job can be portrayed to exhibit these skills. (even if it didn't actually) I would suggest listing the above opportunities, but very briefly and to the point. Say you have 4-5 bullet points for the insurance internship, then have 1-2 for the kinkos and home depot

Focus the bullet points on your resumes on changes/improvements. For example, did you increase revenue at a department at Home Depot?

I know a kid who got a job at a top investment bank and his only prior work experience was being a high school baseball coach.

good luck

Sep 3, 2017

It's something I've been considering. What I've seen is the private schools in my area require a MS or MBA and give preference to grads from that school.

Sep 3, 2017

Enough experience to actually be able to meaningfully add to the course. At the BS level that shouldn't be too difficult. Everything post that level will require significantly more.

Sep 3, 2017

In my experience, most HF contracts would prohibit such activities, for a variety of reasons...

    • 1
Aug 9, 2017

Plenty of guys run little real estate fiefdoms. But those are typically rental properties that require very low touch. Difficult to envision a hf analyst having a whole lot of time for an actual start-up project on the side.

    • 1
Sep 3, 2017

"Fiefdom" made me chuckle.

Sep 3, 2017

I am a franchisor of a national fast casual cartel - I find the cap light, recurring EBIT streams to be the perfect balance to my salary volatility.

Sep 3, 2017

Out of curiosity... how much work does that entail? say, monthly?

Sep 3, 2017

That would entirely depend on the franchise agreements. Some require no direct involvement and can be completely outsourced although that can be tricky to turn a profit that way. While others such as chickfila have a minimum time on site requirement for owners.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

Sep 3, 2017

Aren't you worried about principal/agent issues primarily stemming from the fact that you're not on-site supervising? Or do you have someone you trust doing that?

Sep 3, 2017

No and if I were an LP I'd be fucking pissed if you did.

    • 2
Sep 3, 2017

Why? Is it because the guy's not dedicating all his time?

Sep 3, 2017
Bonzo Bojangles:

Why? Is it because the guy's not dedicating all his time?

I get where you are going but there is a big difference between leisure time and engaging in a for-profit enterprise on the side.

Sep 3, 2017

My bad if it seemed rhetorical, honestly interested in your thinking.

Sep 3, 2017
Bonzo Bojangles:

My bad if it seemed rhetorical, honestly interested in your thinking.

To me, it's not about dedicating your full time but more subtle than that. Obviously everyone is entitled to leisure time; nobody expects a PM to spend 100+ hours a week working (or even 80+ hours a week).

I think the subtle difference is LPs are expecting you spend your work time working for them and your leisure time doing whatever the fuck you want. But if you're spending your leisure time working, then why aren't you working for your investors? More importantly, in our business there is no clear distinction between what work time is and what leisure time is -- nobody can ever really say if your side business is being done on work time or leisure time. And it's not hard to imagine all sorts of conflicts of interest that can pop up where the ultimate calculus is: "Am I better off working for my LPs or working for myself?"

I realize this is all a bit "squishy" and ill-defined.

    • 1
Sep 3, 2017

Following your line of reasoning through the second paragraph, your statement: "LPs are expecting you spend your leisure time doing whatever the fuck you want" needs the qualification: "besides the pursuit of additional personal wealth." And strictly following your logic, if I work at a GP and I spend 70 hours per week on direct/indirect value-add research both in and out of the office (including time spent reading the Economist on the 6 train, debating trade ideas with buddies at Raoul's, etc.), CalSTRS prefers I spend the rest of my week riding jetskis and racking cocaine as opposed to tending to a small side business? I get it - if I'm running an HFT desk on the side that touches the same securities I invest in for my client - fine, that's conflicted, but if I can sustainably, meaning without negatively impacting my performance or service to the client, run a side business that isn't in direct economic competition, why care so much? I suppose it's an easy target because even a kindergartener can point and say "oooh, that's a second job, that's not fair to your first job," but there are far bigger sins a money manager can commit, if we want to go down that road. How about ego, pride, neglect of home-life that leads to other distractions, and the whole host of cognitive biases people fall prey to all the time? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_bi... It's easier to put in an IMA "you can't run a side business" than "you have to keep your ego in check," but I think it's a mostly misplaced concern.

Sep 3, 2017
Lizard Brain:

Following your line of reasoning through the second paragraph, your statement: "LPs are expecting you spend your leisure time doing whatever the fuck you want" needs the qualification: "besides the pursuit of additional personal wealth." And strictly following your logic, if I work at a GP and I spend 70 hours per week on direct/indirect value-add research both in and out of the office (including time spent reading the Economist on the 6 train, debating trade ideas with buddies at Raoul's, etc.), CalSTRS prefers I spend the rest of my week riding jetskis and racking cocaine as opposed to tending to a small side business? I get it - if I'm running an HFT desk on the side that touches the same securities I invest in for my client - fine, that's conflicted, but if I can sustainably, meaning without negatively impacting my performance or service to the client, run a side business that isn't in direct economic competition, why care so much? I suppose it's an easy target because even a kindergartener can point and say "oooh, that's a second job, that's not fair to your first job," but there are far bigger sins a money manager can commit, if we want to go down that road. How about ego, pride, neglect of home-life that leads to other distractions, and the whole host of cognitive biases people fall prey to all the time? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_bi... It's easier to put in an IMA "you can't run a side business" than "you have to keep your ego in check," but I think it's a mostly misplaced concern.

WTF are you talking about, cognitive bias, neglect of home life? Personality/personal issues are way different than saying "hey, it'd be really cool to run a t-shirt printing business for 30 hours a week."

I actually think your kindergartner's construct of "That's a second job, that's not fair to your first job" hits the nail on the head. I actually wish I had just put it that way myself.

Don't forget, as someone in the investment business you are a fucking FIDUCIARY. You owe your investors a duty of care that you do not owe to yourself.

Sep 3, 2017

Oh yeah baby. Get self righteous about fiduciary duty. Fucking lay it on me

So where do you want to draw the line about duty of care? Let's start regulating every facet of PMs' lives so that we're certain all of their actions are absolutely aligned with best interests of LPs. Let's regulate PMs' diets and exercise regimens to make sure they don't suffer from poor health that could negatively affect investment decisions. Transcendental meditation and Tony Robbins seminars are necessary as well.

Get where I'm going with this? I'm being facetious, but seriously, where do you draw the line? You would say "any other non-passive income earning activity," but that's not drawing a line in the spectrum - you're picking just ONE FACET of external life to regulate. Do you fucking get that? And I don't have a problem with you saying "no second job," that's your prerogative, and I understand if you don't want your investment professionals potentially getting distracted by a second business (though if anyone is stupid enough to propose an energy-intensive second activity anyway, shame on you for hiring them in the first place), my problem is with your accompanying statement, "spend your leisure time doing whatever the fuck you want," because that laissez faire statement is 100% incongruous with your fundamentalist position on second income

Sep 3, 2017
Lizard Brain:

Oh yeah baby. Get self righteous about fiduciary duty. Fucking lay it on me

So where do you want to draw the line about duty of care? Let's start regulating every facet of PMs' lives so that we're certain all of their actions are absolutely aligned with best interests of LPs. Let's regulate PMs' diets and exercise regimens to make sure they don't suffer from poor health that could negatively affect investment decisions. Transcendental meditation and Tony Robbins seminars are necessary as well.

Get where I'm going with this? I'm being facetious, but seriously, where do you draw the line? You would say "any other non-passive income earning activity," but that's not drawing a line in the spectrum - you're picking just ONE FACET of external life to regulate. Do you fucking get that? And I don't have a problem with you saying "no second job," that's your prerogative, and I understand if you don't want your investment professionals potentially getting distracted by a second business (though if anyone is stupid enough to propose an energy-intensive second activity anyway, shame on you for hiring them in the first place), my problem is with your accompanying statement, "spend your leisure time doing whatever the fuck you want," because that laissez faire statement is 100% incongruous with your fundamentalist position on second income

Things are different when money is involved. Stop trying to pretend otherwise. If you are engaged in a for-profit enterprise on the side, there exists a tipping point where it is more worthwhile for you to dedicate your time to that rather than your fund. I don't mean all your time, but some amount of time that could/should be spent on your investors. That tipping point doesn't exist with playing golf or knitting sweaters because you still need to do your job to fund your life. As you decrease your financial dependence on your primary investment job, your interest in it naturally goes down. This is just a different form of why LPs like fund managers to have skin in the game. The more time you dedicate to earning money outside your job, the less skin you have in the game. Maybe that's the best way of putting it.

Now, if you're a coupon clipper, sure, you'll take the double-dip of salary in one job -- even if half-assed -- and extra income in the other. And if you're a coupon clipper working for an asset manager buying shit at par or primary market issuance, who really cares if you return 4%, 5% or 6% for your investors? You really can have your cake and eat it, too.

Ultimately, if spending [x] hours/week on your second job is more worthwhile than spending it on your first job, clearly there is an incentive mismatch, because it should be more worthwhile to you to spend that extra time on your first job. I know that if my fund returns an extra 5%, I'm definitely due way more than I could earn subletting apartments.

We're obviously not going to agree on this, but obviously we have different perspectives. I come from a world where 10-20 hours a week isn't the difference between 5% and 6% returns, it's the difference between 20% and 0% returns.

    • 2
Sep 3, 2017

There's a cogent argument I can appreciate

Sep 3, 2017

Excellent points, clearly a professional with real world knowledge. Refreshing to read on WSO

Sep 3, 2017
mrb87:

<

blockquote class="quote-msg quote-nest-1 odd">

We're obviously not going to agree on this, but obviously we have different perspectives. I come from a world where 10-20 hours a week isn't the difference between 5% and 6% returns, it's the difference between 20% and 0% returns.

Sorry if this is a tangent - Could you explain why the type of investing you do has that dynamic where each marginal hour of work (relative to competitors I presume?) adds significant return? Are you referring to HF, absolute returns style-investing and comparing it to AM investors or are you referring to event-driven investing in particular?

Appreciate any light you can shed on your statement.

Sep 3, 2017
ElliotWaveSurfer:

mrb87:We're obviously not going to agree on this, but obviously we have different perspectives. I come from a world where 10-20 hours a week isn't the difference between 5% and 6% returns, it's the difference between 20% and 0% returns.

Sorry if this is a tangent - Could you explain why the type of investing you do has that dynamic where each marginal hour of work (relative to competitors I presume?) adds significant return? Are you referring to HF, absolute returns style-investing and comparing it to AM investors or are you referring to event-driven investing in particular?

Appreciate any light you can shed on your statement.

Correct. If I'm running a book with 50-100 names it, I'm basically indexing and unless I'm extraordinarily good or lucky (or conversely, extraordinarily bad or unlucky), I'm probably going to be pretty close to my benchmark. It's hard for me to see how spending an extra 10-20 hours a week will generate incremental returns. OTOH, a more concentrated portfolio requiring heavy research/due diligence/activist measures can probably benefit from investing more hours, all else being equal.

    • 1
Sep 3, 2017

Junior trader at a $15 b L/S equity fund.
Two of our PM's (neither a partner) have outside business that I know of.
One owns and rents out a handful of condo's in the NYC metro area and the other one owns a catering hall / restaurant a fairly far distance from NY.
The LP's don't care as long as your P/L is in the green. After a few years of showing you're of value to the firm you get more leeway where they trust you to not do anything on the side that would interfere with your P/L.

    • 2
Sep 3, 2017

My PM is involved in a start-up he funded. It 100% does have an impact on his ability to focus on the HF side of things.

    • 1
Sep 3, 2017

Given the heated discussion above, I think I should expand a little bit on the logic I have seen applied at places where I have worked (not that many)...

The main reason why I have seen HFs explicitly forbid or, at the very least, frown upon PMs/partners running stuff on the side is the potential for complications down the line. Issues of compliance, intellectual property ownership, conflicts of interest may arise, in some particular circumstances. All these things are, naturally, low delta, but, in my experience, a lot of funds, especially the larger ones, prefer to err on the side of caution. Obviously, that said, when/if you're senior enough, everything can be negotiated.

    • 1
Sep 3, 2017

Personally, if you think you can get a greater return outside of investing in your own fund, you shouldn't be running money (save for funds which are designed to be a part of someone else's portfolio, e.g., short only funds).

    • 1
Sep 3, 2017

For PE funds, it's pretty standard for LPAs to include a time and attention clause where all partners and principal (ie. everyone who receives carry) is forced to dedicate themselves full-time to the fund. I'm less knowledgeable about HF, but I assume that at least for bigger funds, this must be pretty standard too (although it might only directly apply to partners since HF tend not to directly allocated carry to employees).

There also seem to be some confusion as to what running a business constitute. Generally speaking, I think that being involved as an investor is not going to cause any issues and it's common for people to manage their personal portfolio, own real estate and invest in businesses and startups. As long as involvement is limited to the board level (ie. no operational involvement although often the line does blur), it's normally fine. I think the issue would be if someone has an operational role (which is what i think running a business is all about) then as others mentioned, there's all kind of conflicts and distractions.

Sep 3, 2017

As somebody / some above have said, some funds explicitly forbid most types of side businesses. Would love to get involved in something though. You get the extra income (which is always nice!), you smooth out your earnings being all over the place from year to year and also (if the business takes off) you have that nice option of being able to say "that's it, I'm done".

Sep 3, 2017

Just get an easier job, even if it's for less money. You should treat your job as the side project, not your startup. Otherwise, it may never take off as you will always give it less attention.

Sep 3, 2017

Real talk:

This can and has been done by people from all walks of life. Only you can actually make it happen. If you really believe in what you are doing on the side, you'll work on it.

If someone came in and said "nah, no way man, just give up," would you have listened?

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Sep 3, 2017

What the two people above posted. Keep your chin up and best of luck.

Sep 3, 2017

Probably not. While everyone says that "if there is a will, there is a way," there are some hard biological/physical factors to keep in mind (there's only 24 hours in a day, you actually DO need to sleep at least 7-8 hours per night, etc.).

Working 8-8 and building a start-up (assuming another 4-5 hours of work per evening), would give you about 5-6 hours of sleep per night + nothing else. You basically cannot do that.

Sep 3, 2017

I'm usually quite optimistic but I don't think it's very likely for a business to succeed if you don't have enough time and energy to devote to it, no matter how intelligent and business savvy you are.

Additionally, you will HAVE to work during the day at times to take care of regulatory/legal paperwork, customers, sales, etc.

Sep 3, 2017

Do you code or do business end? If business end, then it's very do-able.

What does a startup need from the business end?

+Gaining customers

+Gaining partnerships (maybe, depends on business)

+Gaining media publicity (which comes automatically with success from 1 or 2, so you don't even need to actively work on this). For example, my friend got this article on Techcrunch and his team didn't even advance to the finals! http://techcrunch.com/2012/03/12/txtroo-launches-a...
What do you really need, seriously. A business plan? Projection of path to revenue? It's not incredibly time intensive, but network-intensive.

The dumb way to put time into your startup is to talk to random people and get them to use your product/service/website. The smart way is to convince influencers in your niche market to become evangelists. With consulting, you can take advantage of the flying and whatnot to set up meetings.

Go for it man. PM me if you (or anyone reading this) needs help. I'm here for you :)

Sep 3, 2017

Xepa is a stand up guy

Get it!

Sep 3, 2017
Sep 3, 2017

.

Sep 3, 2017

thanks for the advice----all of you. Interesting, the blogger above went to my school & is in my year but I've never met him before.

Sep 3, 2017

i tried to do this a while ago selling web hosting services and its harder than you would think. How do you plan on market these products? Do you have a blog? are you a spammer?

Sep 3, 2017

Well the basic overview is you go:

SEO keyword (takes quite awhile) ---> Create Landing Page ---> Opt-in forms w/ free product usually a review that you can write 4-5 pages ----> Post every now and then some content on front end (landing page on back-end using WordPress) ----> Keep SEO keywords in posts ---> Use ezinearticles, backlink programs to increase google ranking

Pretty much that is it if you do not want to spend more money then setting up the landing page and mailing list

Of course getting into PPC and solo ads are better but it has to be targetted since you want to have relevant traffic, its not good to have 10,000 visitor's looking for cooking recipee's when your niche is dog training

Sep 3, 2017

hmmm, considering that you only have 1 year until your SA, I would suggest against starting this business. It takes a while to acquire a following for what you are doing. I feel that if you tried to do this, the benefits to running it will not outweigh the opportunity cost of networking for your high finance job. btw, don't waste money on ppc and solo ads because the big dogs with a lot of capital will always beat you in the bidding battles

Sep 3, 2017

Yeah the reason why I wanted to ask on here is to get an opinion, AM isn't something you can do on the side, you really have to treat it as a business. The paid crap is not really an option for a small guy and quite frankly I don't want to spare my capital in it especially since it is such a hit-or-miss thing and bigger dogs outbidding you...

That said I might still look to find a relatively untapped niche and see how it goes, it only costs like $20 to get it started up and I can limit myself to spending only an hour on it each day if I'm not seeing any progress I can try and at least sell the site or something... in any event it will be a different experience

Sep 3, 2017

Don't do internet marketing. It's a shitty way to make income and it's like being the sleaziest type of salesman. I'd rather freelance write or work in dining services...

Sep 3, 2017

good luck, but i think time would be better spent learning how to program a website if anything, not setting up a wordpress blog

Sep 3, 2017

Yea above posts are correct likely I will not do it, probably will instead make a blog about my investment banking pursuit or something like that and monetize it if it actually turns into something.. lol

But wordpress isn't that bad you can really use it to your advantage, learning how to code from the bottom-up is sort of tough but I do use lynda so I can make it slowly there

Sep 3, 2017

holy shit fuck. I was an aggressive little cunt when I wrote this. My god. I totally missed out on htat IB SA, but I worked in private equity straight out of undergrad haha!

Sep 3, 2017

We have a few advisors at my firm. Most of the people are retired/semi-retired. One guy who has another full-time gig notified his firm in the beginning.

Sep 3, 2017

Just let them know about it. If it wont detract from your work there, then there shouldn't be an issue.

Sep 3, 2017

Are there any conflicts of interest that you will need to manage/play down? This is something worth keeping in mind.

Sep 3, 2017

I don't see it being a problem, if it were me I'd just let my VC firm know and reiterate it won't affect my work. If anything, I'd see my team being happy to help me in making introductions where it could help.

Sep 3, 2017

Thanks for your views everyone. I think the problem still is that some GPs may see this as being a distraction from my "main job" no matter what you say plus an exit route in the making (we associates here are meant to stay for the long term) but I will look at ways of positioning this adequately.

Sep 3, 2017
m2:

Thanks for your views everyone. I think the problem still is that some GPs may see this as being a distraction from my "main job" no matter what you say plus an exit route in the making (we associates here are meant to stay for the long term) but I will look at ways of positioning this adequately.

I think that is a strong possibility, but I assume that if you don't tell them, it could be a 'fireable' offense if they find out.

Sep 3, 2017

Will you be seeking out other VCs for funding the project? If so, this could be a potential conflict of interest.
I would mention something about being involved with the project but since there is no compensation as of right now, I won't say anything about that.

Sep 3, 2017

Ok basically I haven't been allowed to do this b/c the promised compensation signalled to the partners here that I could end up spending A LOT of time on this. I'll probably still help out a bit here and there but not go "all-in" at this point.

Aug 15, 2017

it sounds like they're different lines of business, and that the # of hours would be manageable, nevertheless, I'd ask compliance. I know the adage "ask for forgiveness, not permission" sometimes applies, but not in finance. if you're series 7 registered, you could get royally fucked if you fail to disclose an outside business interest.