8/21/13

In light of the recent death of an investment banking intern in London (who was apparently epileptic) and with all the misinformation and romanticized banking horror stories being peppered all over the place, I thought I'd (try to) settle this for once and for all and clear up all the bullshit.

With respect to the people saying that it's "NEVER" expected to work 3 back to back all nighters, or that interns aren't expected to work all nighters--you guys might be too senior to notice it happening.

There is a team that sits near me at my shop that regularly has to pull back to back all nighters, because they have a terrible staffer and awful seniors to work for. They don't even go home for the shower anymore; they have a few sets of fresh clothes under the desk. Unsurprisingly, the majority quit post-bonus. HR is puzzled, but people are too afraid to tell the truth about how badly the workload for that team is managed.

This is just patently false. Its not at all like this in the industry.

This sounds more like one of the college kids that so frequently troll WSO and are for whatever reason turned on by the idea of working ridiculous (beyond the pale of reality) hours in banking.

The amount of misinformation about the banking lifestyle on WSO in fairly absurd. And it stems largely from these nerdy kids who think its a badge of honor to somehow work ridiculous hours. Its the same kids who when they first start working will stay in the office for absolutely no reason. Its the same kids who try to impress people by bragging about their ridiculous work schedules. Its the same kids that build a 16 tab model with 11 different scenarios and 8 sensitivity tables to run statistics on how many hours per week they are working.

You see this through levels in banking, these are the VPs that are in the office until midnight-1AM consistently. Its the directors and MDs in the office until 10 or 11. They are legitimately sad people, you feel sorry for them. To some degree banking is constantly forcing people to demonstrate their worth, and some people think that their worth is quantified by how many hours they spend in the office. What you start to see is that the 'face time' people initially starting putting in to demonstrate their worth to other people, starts becoming their own sense of self worth. Yeah, thats some deep Dr Phil shit.

Pulling 100 hour weeks is fairly intense. But even still its working from 9AM to 1AM during the week. And working from 10AM to 8PM on Saturday and Sunday. Its not really that bad. Its just horrific in comparison to working a normal job and going to happy hour after work, and brunch and college football on Saturdays and chilling at home all day on Sundays. Even in the banking 100 hour week, you're still averaging about 5-6 hours of sleep during the week, and as much sleep as you want during the weekend. Will there be weeks when you work more than that, yes. Will there be weeks when you work less, yes. The busier groups will work those weeks more often, and will have the absolutely ridiculous weeks come up a few more more times than the less busy groups. But if you're consistently working meaningfully more than that on a regular basis, its because you're not effective at your job.... and often times because you like the idea of always being in the office. Everyone who has actually worked in banking for a year or more knows exactly what I'm talking about.

The truth is the industry has its fair share of characters, but they are still within a few standard deviations of reasonable human beings. After you work a really long week and the deliverable are off the table, you can bounce early if you want. If you worked all weekend until 2 AM, worked until 4 Monday night and were in the office at 830AM to flip books on Tuesday, you can bounce early. Or come in late the next day. No one is driving slave ship. Meetings can get pushed if there is not enough man power. Analysts get shuffled around. Most banks have templates, canned presentations and pages from past books, presentation operators that turn changes, outsourced analysts abroad and graphics departments to create shit.

The real gruel of the banking lifestyle comes not from a lack of sleep... even though there may be instances where you're fairly sleep deprived when you're sprinting towards the finish line on a few projects... rather it comes from the fact that everything outside of work is always hanging on a string that may get snipped if the smallest thing requires your attention at work.

Comments (102)

8/20/13

Nice.

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8/20/13

Marcus_Halberstram:
Pulling 100 hour weeks is fairly intense. But even still its working from 9AM to 1AM during the week. And working from 10AM to 8PM on Saturday and Sunday.

Do you find that this "schedule" is more or less the norm or do you think you get more weekday time and less weekend time or whatever else?

Marcus_Halberstram:
The busier groups will work those weeks more often, and will have the absolutely ridiculous weeks come up a few more more times than the less busy groups.

Generally, which groups are busier and which aren't, or does this deviate too much from company to company to predict? Also, does being in a busier group bode well for your reviews or doesn't it matter?

8/20/13

CRE:

Marcus_Halberstram:

Pulling 100 hour weeks is fairly intense. But even still its working from 9AM to 1AM during the week. And working from 10AM to 8PM on Saturday and Sunday.

Do you find that this "schedule" is more or less the norm or do you think you get more weekday time and less weekend time or whatever else?

Marcus_Halberstram:

The busier groups will work those weeks more often, and will have the absolutely ridiculous weeks come up a few more more times than the less busy groups.

Generally, which groups are busier and which aren't, or does this deviate too much from company to company to predict? Also, does being in a busier group bode well for your reviews or doesn't it matter?


CRE -- my experience in regards to your questions:

1 - Work seems heavily skewed towards weekdays. While it does happen, work never really needs to be done "first thing in the morning" on a Saturday or a Sunday morning. This means the big pushes to make sure absolutely everything is squared away tend to occur during the week. Weekends tend to be slower paced, with more breaks to go to the gym, take personal phone calls, etc.
2 - It really is firm dependent. From my experience, healthcare has miserable hours almost everywhere. The rest varies by firm. Others may be better suited to comment here.

CompBanker

8/20/13

I just got another job offer for a position in IBD and the interviewer asked me if I would be okay with 18-20 hour days. I said yes at the time, but then after reading this story, there is a point where it simply isn't worth it.

8/20/13

CRE:

Marcus_Halberstram:

Pulling 100 hour weeks is fairly intense. But even still its working from 9AM to 1AM during the week. And working from 10AM to 8PM on Saturday and Sunday.

Do you find that this "schedule" is more or less the norm or do you think you get more weekday time and less weekend time or whatever else?

Marcus_Halberstram:

The busier groups will work those weeks more often, and will have the absolutely ridiculous weeks come up a few more more times than the less busy groups.

Generally, which groups are busier and which aren't, or does this deviate too much from company to company to predict? Also, does being in a busier group bode well for your reviews or doesn't it matter?

To answer both questions it dependent on a variety of factors.

First and foremost your firm culture. BBs are know to have more intense expectations in terms of how available you are. Some boutiques are the complete opposite and you're actually viewed unfavorably if you're routinely working late and in the office all the time.

Second is the group you're in, the type of work that group does and how much deal flow there is. Live deals are more pressing and are less flexible in terms of deliverables, so they usually result in a more intense schedule. Depending on the firm your in, specific industry or product groups have varying degrees of intensity.

Third is the role you play in the group. Are you at the lowest rung and get all the work no one else wants to do? This might be counter intuitive, but that usually involved less late nights if you play it right. Thats because the bitch work... profiles, comps, pet projects, administrative group work is typically less time sensitive and has more visibility. Are you the favorite analyst of a particular MD? That means you'll work (sometimes) exclusively with him/her depending on your group dynamic. Their expectations can make or break your lifestyle. Some Senior Bankers are ridiculous low maintenance, if you get in close with one of them you'll be set.

Generally execution groups are busier. Some firms run the lion's share of execution out of coverage groups. But typically M&A is generally fairly busy. As is LevFin in some instances (but is often more market hours)... and depending on the firm sponsors. I've noticed ECM groups are generally some of the more moderate groups in terms of lifestyle. But again, dependent on all of the above. And the level of supersedence really goes from the bottom of the my post upward.... your MD sets the tone, then your role in the group, then your group, then your firm culture.

I wouldn't call the 100 hour week the norm. Its less frequent than people on here lead you to believe.

8/20/13

Marcus_Halberstram:
Some BB's are know to have more intense expectations in terms of how available you are. Some boutiques are the complete opposite and you're actually viewed unfavorably if you're routinely working late and in the office all the time

Interesting. Are there any specific stereotypes, i.e. "These places are sweatshops" and "These places are the opposite."

What's a good way to get "in" with a senior banker, or does it generally depend on personality?

8/20/13

Most people I know work between 80-100 hours a week and exaggerate a couple hours here and there. But I'm not sure what you mean by "patently false". The guy didn't claim to make a statement about the whole industry - he merely told an anecdote of a group that's managed particularly poorly.

I'm not going to comment on the veracity of the statement, but only that it does not surprise me. There are groups that honestly have horrendous working conditions and every hour after 120 starts becoming pretty terrible.

8/20/13

It happens more often in some groups than others (healthcare, TMT) due to the nature of of those industries, but it's rare that you will work 100 hours a week for six months. It's most likely 2-3 weeks up to a month or two at most, but as with anything there are exceptions.

Whenever I've had a 100 hour week though, it tends to be heavier during the week (i.e. leaving between 2am - 4am). As a third year now, I've only stayed until 3am a handful of nights in the last six months. Most nights I'm out by midnight or earlier.

People tend to think life is a race with other people. They don't realize that every moment they spend sprinting towards the finish line is a moment they lose permanently, and a moment closer to their death.

8/20/13

Sav, I would call the claim that a group works so much that they can't go home and shower and need to keep several days worth of clothes at work patently false.

Enlighten me otherwise.

And CRE, getting in with a Senior is a combination of chemistry, luck (getting staffed repeatedly with him/her early on so you can develop a good working relationship) etc...

8/20/13

Marcus_Halberstram:

And CRE, getting in with a Senior is a combination of chemistry, luck (getting staffed repeatedly with him/her early on so you can develop a good working relationship) etc...

Cool. That's what I expected, but you never know when something is going to come up that isn't intuitive.

8/20/13

Just curious. If the "norm" is 100hrs, how come that those people have the time to be on WSO? I really hope that they at least earn enough to hire someone to clean their apartment, cook for them, wash their clothes. Or in case they have a wife (to do all this) and kids, do they have enough time to enjoy their wife and kids?

8/20/13

sterre74:

Just curious. If the "norm" is 100hrs, how come that those people have the time to be on WSO? I really hope that they at least earn enough to hire someone to clean their apartment, cook for them, wash their clothes. Or in case they have a wife (to do all this) and kids, do they have enough time to enjoy their wife and kids?

They are not usually working that entire time. A lot of my friends in IBD tell me about how they don't usually get any work until mid-late afternoon but they have to go in during the day to be "available" in case there is work to do.

8/20/13

Glad to hear that. It can't be healthy to work that many hours and that late.
I do think that there is a difference if a boss expect you to work that many hours and working many hours because you really enjoy your work. It also would help if you could do some work from home. Although I still think that 100hrs are to many hours. There will be a time that your body will tell you too much is too much.

8/20/13

"Pulling 100 hour weeks is fairly intense. But even still its working from 9AM to 1AM during the week. And working from 10AM to 8PM on Saturday and Sunday. Its not really that bad."

Wow, just wow. Banking has melted your brain to the point that you are 100% out of touch.

8/20/13

justin88:
Wow, just wow. Banking has melted your brain to the point that you are 100% out of touch.

Agreed. What a loser

8/20/13

I totally agree. And the big problem is that if there are enough people who do this, the companies will expect these ridiculous hours from other employees as well. I don't want to offend MH but he also seems to be one of those nerdy ones who seems to think it is a badge of honor to work that many hours.

8/20/13

justin88:

"Pulling 100 hour weeks is fairly intense. But even still its working from 9AM to 1AM during the week. And working from 10AM to 8PM on Saturday and Sunday. Its not really that bad."

Wow, just wow. Banking has melted your brain to the point that you are 100% out of touch.

Agree.

The HBS guys have MAD SWAGGER. They frequently wear their class jackets to boston bars, strutting and acting like they own the joint. They just ooze success, confidence, swagger, basically attributes of alpha males.

8/20/13

SonnyZH:

justin88:

"Pulling 100 hour weeks is fairly intense. But even still its working from 9AM to 1AM during the week. And working from 10AM to 8PM on Saturday and Sunday. Its not really that bad."

Wow, just wow. Banking has melted your brain to the point that you are 100% out of touch.

Agree.

I thought I was the only one who cringed a little reading that.

There was a thread earlier where one guy recorded either his intern or analyst hours and said the average came out between 75-80 hrs a week. Has anyone done anything similar?

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." --Abraham Lincoln

8/20/13

I'm at a lower MM M&A boutique - 80 hours would be a bad week for me.

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."

8/20/13

duffmt6:

I'm at a lower MM M&A boutique - 80 hours would be a bad week for me.

I'm at the same type of firm and 80 hours would be a very bad week. My avg is prob about 60-65.

8/20/13

adapt or die:

duffmt6:

I'm at a lower MM M&A boutique - 80 hours would be a bad week for me.

I'm at a the same type of firm and 80 hours would be a very bad week. My avg is prob about 60-65.

65 is probably about my average as well.

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."

8/20/13

My summer avg at bb was probably 85, although skewed bc first 2 weeks are 60 hrs kind of light. I had a month entirely of 95-110 hours.

8/20/13

justin88:

"Pulling 100 hour weeks is fairly intense. But even still its working from 9AM to 1AM during the week. And working from 10AM to 8PM on Saturday and Sunday. Its not really that bad."

Wow, just wow. Banking has melted your brain to the point that you are 100% out of touch.

My point was that it is by no means un-doable or lethal.

While it may be emotionally taxing, its physiologically not exactly Navy SEALs training camp as some moron was implying.

8/20/13

justin88:

"Pulling 100 hour weeks is fairly intense. But even still its working from 9AM to 1AM during the week. And working from 10AM to 8PM on Saturday and Sunday. Its not really that bad."

Wow, just wow. Banking has melted your brain to the point that you are 100% out of touch.

ok marcus is not out of touch; you just havent lived in new york.

80+ hour weeks are common in all industries.. i've had a group of friends where the half of us in s&t/banking/corp fin left earlier than than few of the 1-2 in non finance people for months in a row. for example, one friend had to get a draft? memo? for her client in advertising.

and dont get me started on those small consulting companies you've never heard of -- the kids there easily work 100+ hours.. their equivalent of "MD's" are similarly cranky and high maintenance.

mind you all industries above are pulling comparable hours on half the pay. but AGAIN, it doesnt mean they have these weeks all the time -- or as often as bankers. it just DOES HAPPEN to everybody in new york.

in startups, creative, or anything project based in NY - working into the wee hours is just super common.
for them getting out before 7 is super rare. they look at me like i have three heads when I try to schedule dinner for 7. even I am surprised by this -- as we are conditioned to think only finance works these crazy hours on this board. this may/may not link to why night life goes until 4am here in NY.

8/20/13

Good thread, guys. Just as an additional data point - I tracked my hours over the summer, and ended up with an average of 106 hours a week. Granted, I summered at a particularly intense/busy group, so that must've inflated hours somewhat. But it wasn't uncommon for analysts in my group to go through multiple weeks of 100-120 hours, and it wasn't as if the senior people were creating tons of unecessary work - there was honestly just that much work to be done. To be frank, it scared me a bit, and I'm considering not going back. I think that there's something to be said for giving up when the hours just get to be unsustainable, but obviously, each person has a different threshold for what that entails.

dollas

8/21/13

she_monkey:

justin88:

"Pulling 100 hour weeks is fairly intense. But even still its working from 9AM to 1AM during the week. And working from 10AM to 8PM on Saturday and Sunday. Its not really that bad."

Wow, just wow. Banking has melted your brain to the point that you are 100% out of touch.

ok marcus is not out of touch; you just havent lived in new york.

80+ hour weeks are common in all industries.. i've had a group of friends where the half of us in s&t/banking/corp fin left earlier than than few of the 1-2 in non finance people for months in a row. for example, one friend had to get a draft? memo? for her client in advertising.

and dont get me started on those small consulting companies you've never heard of -- the kids there easily work 100+ hours.. their equivalent of "MD's" are similarly cranky and high maintenance.

mind you all industries above are pulling comparable hours on half the pay. but AGAIN, it doesnt mean they have these weeks all the time -- or as often as bankers. it just DOES HAPPEN to everybody in new york.

in startups, creative, or anything project based in NY - working into the wee hours is just super common.

for them getting out before 7 is super rare. they look at me like i have three heads when I try to schedule dinner for 7. even I am surprised by this -- as we are conditioned to think only finance works these crazy hours on this board. this may/may not link to why night life goes until 4am here in NY.

Marcus is out of touch with reality, not "banker reality".

If you looked at my profile, you'd see that I do live in NY.

People tend to inflate the actual amount of hours they work. An occasional 80+ hour week happens in other industries, but is quite uncommon. Banking, corporate law, and medical residency are the only places where people work that much on a regular basis. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY in S&T puts in 4000+ hours in a year. The trading floor is 99% empty by 7pm. Most consultants don't even work on Fridays. People working at startups get into the office at 10 or 11am; even if they stay till midnight-1am M-F (lol they don't) that's 55-65 hours working through lunch and dinner.

Best Response
8/20/13

I am a frequent poster under another user name that has been on this site for several years. I am going to weigh in on this from an anonym. account as I do not want to reveal too much about who I am. If you want to discount what I say, feel free, but what I am listing is the 100% truth. Most of it backs up MH's comments....

I spent a year and a half in a group in our firm's NYC office that has a reputation across the Street for being a sweatshop and then changed groups (and offices) to our firm's Houston O&G group, where I have been for about the same amount of time. I am an associate from a top 5 B-School who came from a non-finance background.

1. "these nerdy kids who think its a badge of honor to somehow work ridiculous hours. Its the same kids who when they first start working will stay in the office for absolutely no reason. Its the same kids who try to impress people by bragging about their ridiculous work schedules. Its the same kids that build a 16 tab model with 11 different scenarios and 8 sensitivity tables to run statistics on how many hours per week they are working."

- These folks absolutely exist and they bring down the entire culture of IB. Most of them will spend hours trying to calculate a WACC when the MD told them specifically "just use 10-12%." They will often drag their feet on getting things done, just to go home later and make a big deal on how many additional hours they worked than others. While they are much more common at the analyst level, you will see them at all ranks in IB. All of them have been in IB their whole careers (obviously true of the analysts, but I am speaking more about the senior folks here) and were finance majors in college. Coming from a STEM background, I can tell you that the finance required for IB is just not that hard. It's freakin' 8th grade math, at best. Building a rediculous model only impresses people who like building rediculous models. The client that you are building the model for does not care about your supposedly ingenious way of computing accretion/dilution. Simpler is usually better and if the client (or prospective client at a pitch) thinks your methods are overly esoteric, you are not going to get the mandate. They will think you are a pretentious douche and give the business to another bank.

2. "You see this through levels in banking, these are the VPs that are in the office until midnight-1AM consistently. Its the directors and MDs in the office until 10 or 11. They are legitimately sad people, you feel sorry for them. To some degree banking is constantly forcing people to demonstrate their worth, and some people think that their worth is quantified by how many hours they spend in the office. What you start to see is that the 'face time' people initially starting putting in to demonstrate their worth to other people, starts becoming their own sense of self worth. Yeah, thats some deep Dr Phil shit."

- 100% true. See my comments on 1, above. Most of these folks either will not make it to the next level, or if they do make it to MD are the ones who never do deals and the top-flight analysts and associates will not work for. At my group in NYC, one MD would only be able to get staffing from analysts who were new or first year associates. Once you were beyond that, junior folks would refuse to work for him. He has not done a deal or even won a bakeoff since he made MD. I doubt that will change and he will probably find himself looking for work in 2-3 years. I am sure the guy was the absolute rock star of his analyst class.

I cannot tell you how many times someone would love to comment on how they were working on something till the wee hours and it was like they wanted me to get down on my knees and blow them for it. Who really cares?

3. "Even in the banking 100 hour week, you're still averaging about 5-6 hours of sleep during the week, and as much sleep as you want during the weekend."

- 100% true. I put in many 4 AM - 6 AM nights in NYC and I still got at least 4 hours of sleep and did not roll in till 10-10:30. Later than 4 AM on consecutive nights only happened a few times. Midnight to 1 AM M-Th was common, where I still did not arrive till 9:30-10 AM the next day. Even if I went out for a drink or watched TV at home, I still got some decent sleep.

4. Most groups knock off by 8 PM on Fridays. If you are looking for a job with a particular shop, email one of your junior contacts there on Friday night and see if he is in the office. If he is, that should be a major warning sign. Most problems that cause what happened in London at BAML are the result of bad group or firm culture. If I remember, didn't dealbreaker have some commentary about people leaving BAML groups in droves?

For the last year and a half, I have worked in a BB group in Houston. Not only do I find O&G to be a fascinating industry to cover, but the culture here is outstanding. Once, I had to come in and flip books on a Sunday and the MD actually showed up to help because he felt so bad about it. In my office, the MDs are almost never here. They are either at meetings/pitches or at home or playing golf. I have never seen a VP or Director here past 8 PM unless their was a huge pitch the next day and even that was not always the case. Overall, my hours are much less than NYC. I would say I am between 60-75 hours a week 95% of the time. I am never at the office past 5 on Fridays and while 10 PM on M-Th is very common, midnight or later is rare. If 6 PM rolls around and I have nothing to do, I leave. It is not looked down upon. It is expected. We have good deal flow and bring in a lot of fees. The reason we do not get crushed is due entirely to group culture and the total absense of the kind of folks MH and I mentioned. We ACTIVELY do not recruit people who will do what is mentioned above. My experience is proof that IB at the associate level truly can consistently be a 75 hour per week job.

I have been at the top end of the bonus ladder each of the years I have been with the firm. At the end of the year, senior bankers (minus the ones metioned in 2.) only care about the quality of work you put out.

8/20/13

Also a frequent poster on this site, and also posting under a new account in order to protect identity.
For the most part, I agree with everything you have to say. I am writing this to echo your sentiments in part, and in part to further highlight that the discrepancies between different groups' hours are purely a result of culture.

I also work in a oil & gas group in Houston; we are considered one of the top coverage groups both in o&g and at our bank. I am a first year analyst and have not ever worked in NY, but my experience (as well as my associates') is slightly different than yours. The average for analysts in my group is probably around 85-90; but we hardly ever pull long hours on weekends. Usually Sat/Sun work is about 7 hours, maybe. Some people do all of their weekend work on Saturday, some do it all on Sunday. But we rarely ever have a deliverable on a Saturday morning or on a Sunday morning. Our senior guys respect our weekends, and this is only because my group's culture demands that. What the don't respect, however, is Mon-Thurs. Fridays are generally pretty good too, so this means past 3 or 4 am M-Th is not an oddity. on average its not that bad, but I have had 2 month streaks where I never went home earlier than 3 am M-Th, and I was always expected to be there by 9:30 the next morning. This all depends on what you are staffed on, but most importantly who you are staffed with.
I have found that my long hours/weeks/month are a result of the VP I was working with. The assoc (depending on how good he is) will usually stick around to help at least until midnight, and most are fairly understanding/don't give out ridiculous work. There are a few VPs in my group though that have no regard or respect for our hours, act like going home every day at 3 or 4 am is no big deal, and in my opinion are straight up insane. These are the guys that will stay until 4 am themselves, therefore forcing everyone below them to hang around as well. As a summer, there were many nights where I had to hang around "in case someone needed me". That's an example of culture going wrong.

Now, I think my group has a great culture and I agree that Houston overall has better work/life balance (from what I have heard), but this does not mean there are not insane people above you that ruin it for everyone.
I am surprised that banks work there interns so hard though (London guy?). We would never (and same with most groups in Houston) expect a summer to pull more than 1 all nighter their entire 10 weeks - and that's also rare.

Hours at different groups is dependent on how much pitching/live deal exposure you have, your group's deal flow, but most of all your group's culture. For those going through recruiting, I urge you to reach out to juniors and get candid opinions. Talk to every bank and see what the general consensus is. There are definitely worse groups in Houston that I could have worked with, but I'm certain there are definitely groups that have a less skewed perception of "good hours" too.

12/16/13

Interesting post. Would like to get in touch with you offline with few questions. Can you please PM your contact email/availability. Thanks in advance!

8/20/13

There are absolutely some groups that require analysts to pull regular all nighters. When I was an analyst at a BB in M&A I usually pulled 1 all nighter per month (if I had to guess an average). However, I once was forced to pull 2 all nighters in a row by a horrible, dumb associate.

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8/20/13

I did work for a Financial but not in investment banking, but can someone explain to me if that many people in investment banking work that many hours, why aren't more people hired to reduce the workload? Is it just money (i.e. the bonus someone gets that they are willing to accept those ridiculous hours)?

8/20/13

Are hours at Barclays a lot different? A friend of mine is a 3rd year analyst there (not entirely sure what group) and she says she works 9 to 5 some days even and at most 12 hour days. She also can't just be a slacker or something since she's a 3rd year and she survived all of the recent layoffs and I know she recently took a vacation on top of that.

8/20/13

In Houston?

8/20/13

FrequentPoster:

In Houston?

Nah, NYC.

Edit: Since I called her to "talk to her about the industry" there is a chance, I suppose, that she is completely bullshitting me to not "scare me off" but I don't think she would necessarily do that

8/20/13

3rd year analysts both have a lot of leeway and are usually pretty good at their jobs. The extra efficiency of two years banking experience can make a big difference.

8/20/13

Woah, woah, woah. Thanks for selectively quoting from one of my posts to make it seem like I'm one of those "college kids that so frequently troll WSO and are for whatever reason turned on by the idea of working ridiculous (beyond the pale of reality) hours in banking."

The unfortunate culture of the team I was citing is not representative of banking as a whole, and I did not claim it to be such. My group is nothing like that (hallelujah, hallelujah) and the rest of the floor regards the working hours of that particular group with a mix of of incomprehension, horror and pity. I put that particular team forward as a singular example to counter someone's blanket statement that back to back all nighters "never" happen. My point was that work benders can and do happen, but the main reason for such aberrations is not because "OMG BANKING IS SOOOOO HARDCORE" but for the much less glamorous reason that some teams are just badly managed. Boring, but true.

If you had read the rest of my post (it's long, so I don't blame you if you skipped), you'd have gone on to see that I absolutely do not encourage pulling all nighters, and instead stress the importance of knowing when to say no and learning to communicate with your staffer to manage your workload.

As an analyst, I've pulled a few all nighters when absolutely necessary, but never because I want to. Yeah, about that--thanks for assuming that I enjoy spending more time at the office than I have to. I'm okay with pulling an all-nighter if I know it's for urgent/unavoidable reasons, and it's the only way that something will get done. I'm not okay with it when an associate/VP is power tripping and demanding that something is done by the next morning for unreasonable/illogical reasons. That has happened to me once and only once. I genuinely thought that I had accidentally offended this guy and that he was paying me back for something, until I found out the next morning that he was widely regarded as an asshole for his random acts of irrational staffing. Again, this only happened once. Again, the importance of communication--if I'd told someone else what was going on, I would have understood what was happening and I wouldn't have had to pull that stupid all-nighter.

(NB: It is totally acceptable, with my group at least, to go home in the afternoon/early evening once you've finished whatever unholy task required you to pull that all-nighter. It's understood that you're not going to be effective anymore, anyway, so finish what kept you there, then get the hell home and get some sleep.)

Anyway, the point of my post was the opposite of what you assume. I wasn't trying to glorify working hours in IBD. Why would I do that? Nobody enjoys living at their desk. I just was trying to explain why prolonged shitty hours can sometimes happen, and give some tips to anyone in the unfortunate position of having to deal with the prospect of being overstaffed. Take a deep breath, relax. I was trying to be helpful, and I think you are as well. There's no need to bite the head off someone bearing another perspective.

8/20/13

You should probably take a look at the old DLJ memo (linked below) that was circulated there and then recirculated at UBS LA if you have doubts that some groups absolutely do have horrendous cultures and the hours can be as ungodly as you have heard. It is by no means an industry norm, but to make the blanket statement that it is "patently false" is also inaccurate. I know of a few friends who have been in such groups and the egregiousness of hours got so out of control that very senior leadership at the respective firms had to step in to mitigate the issues because burnout, turnover, and potential liability risks were so high that the perpetuation of the status quo was no longer viable.
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/files/DLJ%20Too%20B...

8/20/13

rufiolove:

You should probably take a look at the old DLJ memo (linked below) that was circulated there and then recirculated at LA if you have doubts that some groups absolutely do have horrendous cultures and the hours can be as ungodly as you have heard. It is by no means an industry norm, but to make the blanket statement that it is "patently false" is also inaccurate.

Rufio, so you find the claim of analysts in a group routinely being forced to live out of the office without going home to shower or change clothes for multiple days plausible? Tell me you've had friends that have had to do this and you think its absolutely possible. In my experience I've never heard of anything even close to this... it sound like the wet dream of a Wharton M&T student? Maybe I just haven't been talking to the right people. Maybe I'm wrong.

Also, the 100 hour week I posted is not too far off from the DLJ memo... i.e., 16 hour days during the week, and 20 hours on the weekend.

8/20/13

I think you're putting words in people's mouths here. My point was that I know both through firsthand experience (in isolated stretches) and through a couple of friends (who encountered it on a recurring basis which translated closer to a state of normalcy than to random outliers) that certain deal teams and groups can reflect a lifestyle that is absolutely antithetical to the one you are describing, and these scenarios are not in fact "patently false" but are simply the way it is. In reference to the specific poster's comments you are referencing (regarding being unable to return home to shower anymore / keeping lots of clothes at the desk) I believe that the statement viewed in isolation and taken out of context is reflective of slight hyperbole / focus being placed on the absolute worst stretches. But the overall sentiment does not strike me as unfeasible. Back-to-back all-nighters can happen "regularly" in certain deal teams within sweat shop groups. I guess the term "regularly" would likely need to be refined, but I know friends who were pulling 24-30 hour stretches a minimum of 5 times per month when involved with particularly taxing deals and it certainly starts to feel like a regular occurrence when the nights that aren't all-nighters are still midnight plus.

I think the gist of what he was getting at was that he had witnessed a stretch where kids in another group at his firm were not rarely sleeping and full all-nighters, in which the kids were unable to leave the office to go home and change or grab a quick hour long nap were prevalent.

I just think it's inaccurate to make the blanket statement that such circumstances do not exist anywhere in the industry. I certainly agree with you that they are nowhere near the norm and that exaggeration is rampant, but I also know there are certain places where such cultures are alive and well.

8/20/13

Relevant question, adjusting for all other factors, is lifestyle better in Houston IB than in NYC IB?

8/20/13

I think it depends. If you look at the top 3 groups in houston, I would say 90 is probably average but some groups have later weekdays and some do more weekend work. The biggest dicks from my office all came from NY or a diff office though, Texas guys are generally more chill. With that said though, it is most definitely still IBD and people will still be complete assholes for no reason.

8/20/13

I wonder if you and your associates would mind not killing the children. It really isn't the way forward.

8/20/13

Agree with everyone on the culture aspect - I worked in a MM firm with a very good office culture and never pulled an "all-nighter" (i.e. staying at work until the start of next day's work, I've had many 3-4 AM nights). It was also an environment where if you worked until 3-4AM, you can roll in relatively late. To echo what everyone has said, it is pretty easy to tell during the interview process which firm has a good culture - people seem happier, seem to get along with their colleagues and consistently mention office culture & camaraderie as the drawing point of the group/office. If you went through 5 rounds of interviews and all they asked you were how to calculate WACC and nothing about who you are, well, that shows what their culture is like... I had this exp with Moelis couple years back, for instance.

8/20/13

So I guess we can add BAML London to the next WSO thread asking for well-known sweatshops.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." --Abraham Lincoln

8/20/13

Average hours come out ~80-85 even in a busy group over a long period. The issue is that those hours consist of getting crushed for 3 months and then the relative calm of august or december, where, depending on culture, you may still need to put in facetime.

8/20/13

+1 to this.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/20/13

These stupid squables aside, the reason there is so much misinformation is because someone hears of a particularly brutal 2 or 3 day stretch someone had to pull and then they represent that to be a regular course of business type of lifestyle.

The other misconception is that an all-nighter = working until 730 in the morning. If you're in the office past 430, for all intents and purposes thats an all-nighter... even though you may go home and get 3 or 4 hours of sleep before heading back in. Again people turning a 430 AM night with 4 hours of sleep into leaving the office at 730, and going home just to shower. There is a mountain of a difference between those two scenarios, and those of you that have worked each of those will attest to that.

The main point of this post is to present what banking hours are generally like. And the fact that DLJ and UBS LA are known -- even now -- 10+ years after they've been history to have had the most brutal hours Wall Street has seen... and the MD is saying that when you're working 100 hours, thats when you're fully tapped, should inform you guys as to the validity of the monkeys on here claiming that anything more than that is fairly common. Not to mention that by virtue of him having to send that e-mail suggests that his analysts aren't working at that pace, despite his expectations.

8/20/13

Okay Marcus. You win. Despite the fact that the point of my post was the opposite of what you choose to believe, and that I have replied to this thread clarifying that the team in question is not the norm, and that I certainly do not work those hours, I am totally guilty of spreading misinformation. By virtue of the fact that you have more internet points than me, and your apparent ability to ignore responses that don't suit you, you must be correct when you speculate that I am a university student with "wet dreams" about working long hours. Yep. Those are some super sexy dreams. I can't wait till I'm livin' those dreams for real. What was I thinking, trying to contribute in some kind of helpful manner to a discussion? Did I really expect reasonable exchange...on an internet forum? I'm so ashamed. I'm going to go take a time out in my dorm room (while jacking off to American Psycho, obviously, because I have a fictional and glamourised version of IB in my head). It's only 59 minutes past midnight right now--I'm going to stay up for fun while staring at Excel so I can pretend to be one of those super cool bankers who work craaaaaaaaazy hours because they work hard and play hard, amirite?

Aaaaand that'll teach me to try and participate in this forum, instead of lurking on it for downtime entertainment.

8/20/13

Most of the elite boutiques other than LAZ have pretty reasonable hours compared to BBs.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/20/13

...

8/20/13

Great insight, thanks guys

8/20/13

I think the the biggest and most common misconception is one that has been stated a ton on this website: Investment Banking is not just M&A. I dont know of anyone in S&T that works back to back all nighters. At most, international equity guys work 12 hours and can be called on mobiles when they leave buy 12 hour days never come on a consistent basis. As for M&A, I dont think you should be or would be looked down on for stopping when you reach your limit. I'm sure my bank isn't the only one where MDs would rather have employees with energy able to focus than walking zombies.

8/20/13

Marcus raining knowledge. Good for you. You are easily one of this site's best users.

8/20/13

Marcus, good to see you on the site again!

8/20/13

I've been in a stretch of time where it was 100 hour weeks every single week (7+ weeks). However, I hardly ever stayed past 4 AM. Really a case by case thing, and I think that was a very uncommon scenario.

8/21/13

At a few of the known sweatshops (I can speak to Moelis and Rothschild specifically) 100 hrs is a pretty normal week. Now it definitely comes in waves, and even at these places I'm sure you have weeks where you are working pretty light (70-80 hr) weeks, but I have a number of friends at these places that work very consistently until 2 or 3am and then put in 20+ hrs on weekends. Didn't really read through this entire thread, so apologies if I am just beating a dead horse.

8/21/13

I know a few ppl in HK IBD who work like that - no break. China works you hard

4 arms are greater than none - Machamp

8/21/13

Interning at Accenture Strategy for past 6 months.
Longest shift Ive had was 3 back to back all nighters.
Ive gone home at 6pm sharp couple of times too.
but mostly anywhere from 10~3am so....its not THAT bad.
and we usually get one day off of the weekedns so i can live with that

hello.

8/21/13

I'd say my banking career pre-VP was 75 hours on average, with some weeks higher and even some lower. It's still plenty. I've noticed some people work 'smart'; they just process things quicker and don't get bogged down with little things that's not important to that particular MD or client. There's a bit of 80/20 happening here (one VP I know joked that the people who focus on the 20 are the ones doing the 100 hour weeks constantly, hyuk hyuk). There have been people who worked 90 on average at my bank, and they progressed fairly quickly because they were viewed as committed etc., but if you stay in banking, long hours become much less the focus.

8/21/13

Worked at a BB for 2 years. Averaged 75-80 my first year. Didn't keep track my second year but it was definitely less than that.

Completely agree that the majority of the "OMG 100+ every week" crowd are full of BS (not saying all are, just many)

8/21/13

Why exactly do all these "frequent posters" need to create new accounts to post here again?

As for the hours, I'm in an EM so I'm afraid what I have to say might not resonate with most of you. But even in a no-name boutique run by an ex-Wall Streeter workaholic, one-track mind guy, the worst I've had is continuous 90 hours weeks over a 3-month stretch. This is when my PM is a guy who once told me that he's pissed off since he has to "go to the house warming of his new house with his family, and can't use that time for working". A guy who expects the same from us.

So when respected WSO users like @rufiolove say that 25-30 hours stretches happen 5 times a month, it's more than a bit difficult to digest, but I'm still willing to accept it as news to me. It still sounds just absurd. Those guys must either run permanently on red bull or have the stamina of professional athletes.

Read my blog: Bateman Begins

8/21/13

You also need to take into account the time of year, and what the goals of each individual are. My internship was 4 weeks over 100 hours and 6 of the 7 real work weeks over 90 hrs (July 4th was a needed break day). I also had an end goal in sight of getting an offer and going back to school. On top of that, you are slow at everything. You get faster as you get more experience. Yes there will be crushing weeks. Yes it varies by group. So much of this, however, can be put into perspective with relative ease. If you're goal is to be a 4 or 5 star analyst, you will be crushed. If your goal is to get in, put up with stuff for 2 years, and leave for something else, it can be more manageable.

Too many variables in banking to stereotype what the hours are like, but in an attempt to inform, Its 85-120hrs for 1st years and gradually drops as you become more efficient.

I'm also in Houston where energy in incredibly busy right now, so take my 120 top side as very much an outlying event.

"Now watch this drive." -W.

8/21/13

Worst week I ever had during my M&A internship (six months ..., welcome to continental Europe) was 9 am - 5 am Monday to Thurday, 6.30 am on Friday (or Saturday actually), then 11 am 7 pm (had another intern back me up as I was heading to a Metallica concert \m/) and then again 9h - 8h pm on Sunday.

In the first three months, I was always leaving office between 3 and 5 and I as lived in the suburb it took me more than an hour in the morning to come back ...

8/21/13

As an intern in a 2nd tier BB, I can tell you that 90-95hr per week was the regular schedule. Many (bad) reasons for that:
- HR had no oversight on our hours and when dealt about those at the end of the internship, that was completely normal hours
- BBs are often places where individual recognition and acknowledgement are barely existant - no one barely cares about/talks to one another and appearance is the only form of exchange
- Poor management and performance of MDs: staffed with 3 MDs. 2 were some sort of soon-to-retire 60ers giving random work to make the impression they were actively working. The other one had no real banking experience (whole career at Big four CF... certainly selling bakery shops), poor interpersonal/managerial skills (team, clients) and had no consistent client-strategy (e,g, pitching everything around, swinging buy/sell side as changing socks...). He closed nothing in one year and people dubbed him "The 40-Year-Old Virgin of IB"
- Some members of the IB department were really pushing this facetime/stay-at-the-office mentality because let us face it, they did not have much to do outside of work and in a sadistic way wanted to deprive you of your things (family, friends, passions...) - e.g. when they saw you had things planned Friday evenings, they would sort of frown upon you giving you deep-in-the-drawer shit just before the weekend.

That s my own impression of my IB internship - it implies me but of course we are here to discuss each other's experience

8/21/13

A few comments:
- 100h+ workweeks (or even 80+ for that matter) cannot be a rule, and they're usually correlated to poor leadership
- Instilling this "macho" culture that requires your life to suck to do a good job is an abhorrent practice that should be reviewed at Wall Street's C-Suites, especially by C-officers from the S&T track (checks and balances there, avoiding the "it's like this because it's always been like this" argument)
- At the analyst levels, it may be that crazy stretches make up fun anecdotes for college reunions, but at the VP+ level, living up to this "Conan the Barbarian" character usually masks either (i) childishness or (ii) ineptitude
- BAML London isn't *particularly* bad in terms of workload or senior douchebagness. I've worked there and I still keep in touch with quite a bunch of good fellows there. It's just as hardcore as the London average

HOWEVER, keep in mind that...
- It's part of the game, helps keeping sensitive info confined to the smallest number of people possible
- "Defect-free paranoia" is a disease that is closely linked to the personality of a lot of the people that IB tends to screen in
- It is actually good that it happens a few times in the first years, to create or reinforce an above-average sense of responsibility, to make up for the above-average pay, above-average exposure, above-average exit opportunities, etc etc
- Romans 5:3-4 ... I used to read this to my teams whenever we hit 100 hours, as a joke (kind of)

8/21/13

I'm hoping that this "reality check" doesn't only pertain to Analyst level hours. I'm looking to get into the game at the Associate level and would like to have some kind of life outside of work....any comments on this?

"Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a Champion" - Muhammad Ali

8/21/13

pacman007:

I'm hoping that this "reality check" doesn't only pertain to Analyst level hours. I'm looking to get into the game at the Associate level and would like to have some kind of life outside of work....any comments on this?

As an Associate 1, you will work very similar (or more) hours than an Analyst 2/3 but it gets a bit better as an Associate 2/3 where you will probably average 75-80 hours BUT you have more flexibility (i.e. you can work from home on late nights or some weekends where you are busy all day). You also travel a lot more though which means you have to get up at 4am to get to the airport in the morning and fly back in the evening when you can 50% of the time go home afterwards and log in from home as needed (at least in Europe it's a lot of flying around because most companies you cover are not based in London). Associate 1 will be a pain because you have to learn the basics of banking and prove yourself to your Analysts and VP/MD's so you will pull hard hours (and be subject to a certain degree of face time).

8/21/13

Pulled in 103, 91 and 93 hours first 3 weeks as Summer Associate before I stopped counting. July 4th week and last couple of weeks were kind of light, but in the middle was just rough (including a weekend where I had 4:30AM Friday 11PM Saturday and 3:30AM Sunday, big live deal though). Some other ones pulled few 6:30AMs. Group has bad reputation/high deal flow overall and was told (and saw) first year Associates suffer a lot. Things improve with experience, reputation and more control.

8/21/13

Feel bad for the guy from his appearance you can tell he was always going to be great

On another note interns in accounting complain about not having enough work, IB guys complain about too much!... I prefer the latter

8/21/13

Threads like these make me really happy I got a job in ER. Love the work and pretty much get to leave when I get my work done. I have to be at work at the crack of dawn, but I can leave as early as 4pm if it's a slow day (usually around 5:30pm).

8/21/13

There really is no set answer for this question because hours will be very dependent on your group, deal flow, and just how busy your staffings are. If you are in a very busy group that is lean (from people leaving early), you could average 110+ hours a week over months at a time. Within that average you may have bad weeks materially higher as certain deals are more active (think 125+ hour weeks).

If you are concerned about hours you should look at each group on an individual basis. As a rule of thumb you should also avoid working in Healthcare and TMT as they tend to have longer hours at most banks.

8/21/13

what a silly dysfunctional industry.

get less than 6 hours of sleep a night and your productivity will be shit, just utter SHIT. how hard is it to staff up?

8/21/13

lol k

8/22/13

Division of labor doesn't work in banking like it does in other industries- Henry Ford would have fucked shit up, not revolutionized the industry. As one (generic) example for why this is true- imagine the potential chaos if 2-3 people were building a model rather than 1. Because the model is relatively time-sensitive, and only 1 person can efficiently work on it, that 1 person has to work long hours.

8/21/13

I work in consulting and average about 55 hours a week. granted, i work at a second tier firm.. MBB, OW, Booze, type of ultra elite firms work harder than my firm, but my friend at MBB has told me he averages about 60 hours a week. This is all NYC office btw.

The longest hours I've ever had to work in my last 3 years of consulting was about 80 hours per week. However, I do lose a lot of time spent in bullshit travel (hours spent flying, waiting for the plane at airport, commuting, trains, etc)

Btw, I've heard from my college friends in finance that average stint in I-banking is like 2 years. I've been thinking about doing an MBA and possibly doing the IB thing as an associate, but if the majority of IB associates don't last more than 2-3 years into their jobs, and don't have lucrative exit ops into PE or HF and largely end up in Corp Dev-type of jobs at F500 for not so great pay, I am not sure if MBA is worth it at all.

8/22/13

an email my friend at a BB received from his staffer a couple of months ago - can't post links so see URL below (note: no "www" before address):

i.tinyuploads(add dot com here)/Zt2Yek.jpg
i.tinyuploads(add dot com here)/3E73u6.jpg

won't say much more

8/22/13

I'm working at one of the top boutiques in Europe, so I think I can also give an insight about intern and junior staff hours.

I interned at the same firm where I started full time, so I have the intern and the analyst perspective for that specific firm. During my internship, hours were much worse compared to the analyst hours. The main reason for that was that interns were in a pool which meant they worked for everyone. So you basically worked for three analysts/associates at one time, hence you were always busy. Usually two of the three analyst left before 1 am, whereas nearly all of the time one of them had to stay late, which made us interns stay late as well. The experience was pretty intense because I didn't have a single day off in the first month, whereas analysts and up always had a few free days or weekends. From time to time, you just have to communicate with your analysts and tell them about your workload. They have been through the same stuff, so they will hopefully understand. Unfortunately, I realized this pretty late in my internship.

Now as an analyst, hours improved but they still suck tbh. It's generally M-TH 9am - 1am, FR 9am - 9pm/10pm and weekends are starting around 1pm. I usually get out after a few hours which translates into about 10 or 12 hours at a maximum on the weekend. From time to time you even have a completely free weekend and having at least one day off on the weekend isn't that uncommon either. What I don't like about my group is that some of the MDs and VPs just stay too long imho. It just looks bad to leave before the VPs, but some of them regularly stay around midnight or 1am, therefore I rarely leave before midnight. We were told that there is no face time, but let's be honest.. people start to talk once you regularly leave before the higher ups. Don't get me wrong, the people in my group are great and I get along with everyone just perfect. But what annoys me, is that we have to put in too much unnecessary hours.

There are obviously times where you have to put in some crazy hours, i.e. stay until 5am for a few days and work the whole weekend, but those are often caused by unreasonable or unnecessary requests by seniors. Some of the associates told me that they had times when pitch books were limited to a specific amount of pages, whereas today we have to create decks that could be sold as a dictionary.

The most important thing is to communicate your workload with others (especially your staffer) and to look out for yourself. It's okay to decline an additional requests when you are flooded with work or just need some sleep.

8/22/13

Worst part is sometimes you have to wait for that one person's model to slap stuff on your deck or whatever and that's when you twiddle your thumbs for hours middle of the night.

8/22/13

Man, 100 hours a week for years and years (as analysts and associates) - and it's NOT that bad? I really have to reconsider my ambitions about a career in banking. I'm just curious. When do you have spare time to nurture your relationship with childhood friends or buddies from business school or university?

8/22/13

You don't. You try to compensate your recurrent absence by picking up the tab whenever you accidentally happen to have an evening off to catch up with them. No wonder it's a career people get into because of its exit opportunities.

8/25/13

roarslakt:

Man, 100 hours a week for years and years (as analysts and associates) - and it's NOT that bad? I really have to reconsider my ambitions about a career in banking. I'm just curious. When do you have spare time to nurture your relationship with childhood friends or buddies from business school or university?


It's not years and years, people have this retarded idea that you work 100 hours for 10 years.

You do 80 a week in your first year. Then 70ish in your second year and then you leave to the buyside. If you really hate free time you join a megafund and go back to 80 hours a week, if you join mm pe or a hf you'll do somewhere between 60-70 a week which is perfectly manageable.

Also lol at people giving Marcus shit about 100 hour weeks not being bad. They really aren't, it's only 14 hours a day, it's not a fucking holiday but as long as its not back to back its not the end of the world either. Didn't know wso had so many whiny bitches lol. Plus it's not like you spend 100 hours doing super intense work. 20-30 hours is spent watching YouTube waiting for markups, 60 hours are spent mindlessly aligning slides, 10 hours require work that is more challenging than tying your shoelaces.

8/23/13

I think most people just don't have the guts to get up and go home. Others leave right after their direct manager leaves... it's a shame people, grows some kojones and start leaving earlier! Otherwise you will be like the people at FoxCon. And the money isn't even that great, if you work 80 hours per week and you dont make more than 300k, you should quit right now

8/23/13

Shhhh.... Shhhh... You're sounding stupid....

8/23/13

I am so glad you wrote this. I am about to finish my BBA and my goal is to become an IB Analyst. I heard the story and my first thought was, "in what ungodly circumstance would that happen?" It just seems so unlikely! I am able to do some simple financial modeling at my current job and I really couldn't imagine a model taking 3 all-nighters to build. And even if it does, who the hell would say anything if you excused yourself to get caught up on sleep (for a reasonable amount, anyway).

In the words of the ancients, one should make his decision within the space of seven breaths. It is a matter of being determined and having the spirit to break through to the other side.

8/23/13

I was at 110-120 per week just about all summer, and I was leaving earlier than the full-time analyst in my office just about every night. But hey, he's going to megafund PE and was the top analyst in his class. You don't get there without putting in the hours. Our group has a rep for being a sweatshop though. But the placement makes it worth it.

Anyway, just wanted to point out that yes, there are places where you will work 100+ hours per week every week. We're probably the exception, but it happens.

8/24/13

I find it mind boggling that people actually think 80-100 hours a week is ok or to be considered normal, lol. I can understand if it is just a 2-year stepping stone for other opportunities (if they are great opportunities, rather), but people who are older and do this their entire career- what's the point?

I haven't done the job, so I'm not here to provide insight, but rather out of curiosity. I have to think that the people who are working these God awful hours are horribly inefficient at their jobs.

Most people just do this for a couple of years I take it?

8/24/13

TheEngineer:
but people who are older and do this their entire career- what's the point?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNTBb1u6UGg
8/24/13

But when you are working those ridiculous hours, how do you even enjoy the money you are making? From what I've heard, not saying this is factual, you end up spending money on every meal because you don't have time to buy groceries or cook, you overpay for an apartment to be close to work, etc.

Honestly, if you are about making money, it seems spending 100 hours tunnel-visioned on one job isn't the most efficient way of acquiring the benjamins.

8/25/13

TheEngineer:

But when you are working those ridiculous hours, how do you even enjoy the money you are making? From what I've heard, not saying this is factual, you end up spending money on every meal because you don't have time to buy groceries or cook, you overpay for an apartment to be close to work, etc.

Honestly, if you are about making money, it seems spending 100 hours tunnel-visioned on one job isn't the most efficient way of acquiring the benjamins.


The money you spend on food is usually in the office and the firm pays for it, or if its not in the office its such a minimal amount anyway, even if you eat out at nice restaurants... which by the way is one of the purposes of making a lot of money (i.e., to indulge). Living in NYC, you're going to eat out/order in all the time anyway. Second the living close to the office is not really true either. You really only live close to the office your first 1 or 2 years out of college and its typically not any more/less expensive than any other part of the city. After your 1st year or so you move into a better neighborhood more disconnected from the office.

It is in fact a very reliable way of acquiring the benjamins (as you say). It is not however a reliable way of acquiring anything else except maybe middle-aged angst and an onset of anxiety anytime you are disconnected from work for more than 72 hours.

You also will only really work these types of hours for 2 year in banking, then you decide what you want to do once your program is up. If you feel like you haven't yet had enough... go to megafund PE. If you feel like you've had enough but can still handle a more moderate lifestyle... go to MM PE. If you want out all together go do something else entirely.

Even if you stick around in banking, you're working like this for a handful of years... whether that is worth it to you or not is an entirely personal decision. Once you're a 2nd year associate (promoted) you have much more of a life and are more like a factory foreman. You pop in to make sure the production line is working properly and the end product is coming out well-made, polished and without flaw.

Of course, then your life has a lot more stress because as you hit the VP zone you're assessed less of a processor of work and expected to generate business... which comes with its own stresses. So in sum, this job never really gets easy. You can only really afford to be in coast mode as a 3rd year analyst, 2nd year associate and maybe in the twilight of your MD years. But if it were an easy career/lifestyle, it wouldn't pay so well.

8/25/13

I'm sure there has been a thread about this somewhere, but I'm really curious as to what % of analysts that complete their two-year stint end up where. How many go into PE?

8/25/13

Pulling 100 hour weeks is fairly intense. But even still its working from 9AM to 1AM during the week. And working from 10AM to 8PM on Saturday and Sunday. Its not really that bad.

Compared to what, sticking your dick in a blender?

One of the most ridiculous things I have seen someone say on this site.

Carry on folks.

The strangers in this town They raise you up just to cut you down
8/25/13

Jeez... are these cool guy references to my "not that bad" comment ever going to end?

Maybe you're such a cool guy that missing out on 100 hours of being a backward-Cornell hat wearing and polo collar popping d-bag makes you jump out of your bright orange Tod's and into on coming traffic.

But for most people 100 hours is not lethal... which is why this post was written... to rebut all the people claiming that working banking hours is sufficient to literally kill you. And give the prospective monkeys an idea of what it actually consists of. No, you're not spending a week in delirium with bloodshot eyes and an amphetamine IV.

Is it fun or desirable, no. But are you playing Russian roulette by working your balls off... not quite.

I get it, some of you really really cool with super vibrant social lives (that's why you became a bankers in the first place, right) and working a really rough week is akin to a life of celibacy... you'd rather have your windswept hair blown out of its signature Yale-tusell.

But for us mortals, it sucks and its by no means fun, but it won't actually kill you (as was earlier being debated)... and it doesn't consist of going an entire week on barely any sleep.

Not that bad compared to the picture painted by most people on here of the consequences of working a 100 hr week. So CTFO.

8/25/13

Marcus_Halberstram:
Pulling 100 hour weeks is fairly intense. But even still its working from 9AM to 1AM during the week. And working from 10AM to 8PM on Saturday and Sunday. Its not really that bad.

Brah, you're so out of touch. Don't catch a fade thinking I'm not about that ride hard lifestyle with powder up my nay to fend off the z's neither.

Ya parties can wait till after midnight during the week cause they don't really get going until I show up, nahmean? But from 10AM to 8PM on the weekend I'm crushing brews with my bros on the porch calling up the ladies and slamming sloots on my couch.

Just cause you got some hard on about office work don't mean that shit's normal, nahmsayin?

Can't make love to Excel, brah. Can't do it.

8/25/13

CRE:

Marcus_Halberstram:

Pulling 100 hour weeks is fairly intense. But even still its working from 9AM to 1AM during the week. And working from 10AM to 8PM on Saturday and Sunday. Its not really that bad.

Brah, you're so out of touch. Don't catch a fade thinking I'm not about that ride hard lifestyle with powder up my nay to fend off the z's neither.

Ya parties can wait till after midnight during the week cause they don't really get going until I show up, nahmean? But from 10AM to 8PM on the weekend I'm crushing brews with my bros on the porch calling up the ladies and slamming sloots on my couch.

Just cause you got some hard on about office work don't mean that shit's normal, nahmsayin?

Can't make love to Excel, brah. Can't do it.

I absolutely love the false dichotomy of either being a drone rotting in a hermetically sealed office building for most of the week, or being a collar-popped, sloot-slamming brah. Hilarious nonetheless.

The strangers in this town They raise you up just to cut you down
8/25/13

Going Concern:

I absolutely love the false dichotomy of either being a drone rotting in a hermetically sealed office building for most of the week, or being a collar-popped, sloot-slamming brah. Hilarious nonetheless.

I could lampoon another subculture (hipsters are especially hilarious and horrible at the same time), but as a fraternity man in college myself the bro is always the most natural.

8/26/13

I could lampoon another subculture (hipsters are especially hilarious and horrible at the same time), but as a fraternity man in college myself the bro is always the most natural.

[/quote]

I hate hipsters. I spent my freshman year at NYU and so had the "pleasure" of knowing a bunch during that time- I find it hilarious that NYU hipsters can get super involved with things like Occupy Wall Street and call themselves part of the 99%, but go to a school that costs as much as NYU does on their parents' money... Someone told me about a hipster they met who said he lived in Williamsburg "before it was cool..." if I was there, I'd definitely have told him that just meant he lived there when it was shitty...

Rant over.

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