For all those fashion/summer intern attire questions

Please - sorry dosk, but do NOT wear a black suit to the office. Black is not acceptable for business attire.

Other than that, good post

Honestly, awful article. I was going to stop reading after the author recommended black suits, but figured I might as well see what other flawed recommendations were offered. J-Crew cotton madras ties in a business environment? Banana clothing? Rockport shoes? All terrible suggestions. For the prices listed, a smart shopper could easily do much better.

The recommendations are just not feasible for a banker- 5 dress shirts? Color undershirts? 2 ties? This wardrobe is more appropriate for Dunder Mifflin... Amp up the budget to 3k and you can do it decently.

If you want, I can help you put a list together- PM me if you need some ideas.

Yeah, I love your site dosk, but this post seems impractical and poorly thought out.

It would be much, MUCH more useful to see a "smart shopper's guide" to finding quality clothing for a decent price than to see a bunch of links to the most popular mid-priced retailers on the planet.

e.g. are there any major clothing sales in NYC that someone should hit at the beginning of the summer? Can I get clothes off ebay for cheaper? What should I avoid at all costs (chalk stripes, black suits, etc.)? Where are some good outlets to look at near NYC? Where should I splurge, where should I be cheap? What should I insist on getting in a given piece of clothing, where can I cut corners?

no brooks brothers on this list? i think BB is perfect for young people in finance and its really not that pricey. they have good deals on dress shirts (3 non-irons for 200) and if ur like me and lucky enough to have or know someone who has a corporate discount card u can get 30% off. id wear banana republic pants to the office but that's about it... the shirts are way too metro and blazers/suits too trendy... the fact that a banana republic suit is recommended for IB is abhorrent. same goes for JCrew ties.

I don't want to pile on, but I can't disagree more with this article.

2 suits will not get you by. Either will 5 shirts.

You need 8 shirts, 3-4 suits. Banana Republic suits are the poorest quality suit made. You can do much better with an outlet store Brooks Brothers suit, for cheaper. Don't want to spend much on the shirts? Express dress shirts have a clean look and are fitted and cost $30. When I was an intern I got about 5 polo dress shirts at like Marshall's or TJ Max for $30 a piece.

You're an intern and you're poor. We understand. These will do you just fine.

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Either you sling crack rock or you got a wicked jump shot

Love the site but have to agree...

Some of the "banker deals" that should be mentioned are i.e. Brook's semi-annual sales. For example, I believe they currently have 3 shirts for $199. This past weekend they were offering 25% off the entire store. On top of that, if you open up a card, they discount an additional 15%. That's 40% in savings! $2000 there would take you a long long ways.

Obviously, not every intricacy of every sale should have been included, but I've grown accustomed to the little "insider things" that I always get from your own posts!

Interesting article, but I think a number of those clothing suggestions are a bit on the low-end and might not cut it on Wall Street. That being said, if you go about being an educated consumer and hit up all the stores that are having special sales, it is still possible to build a wardrobe on a budget -- and one that actually enables the person to look classy and "fit in" to the Wall Street culture.

I originally was thinking about writing this post as a response to another thread, where some ex-military guy was asking how to assemble a wardrobe for less than a few thousand dollars. However, after having received a couple other requests from other WSO users, I'll offer up some suggestions here as to how how an intern or a new analyst/associate can put together a decent wardrobe without having to break their bank, and still look presentable with some "name brand" items. (Note that my estimates assume that you buy all your stuff on sale

It's easy to tell people what they CAN'T wear in the workplace...so here's a post that offers suggestions as to what you actually can get by with. Do realize that this is considered a very basic wardrobe, and you probably aren't going to "wow" anybody with your style...but as a new intern or analyst, why would you really need to? Anyway, here are some suggestions for the basics...

- 2x Suits, one navy and one charcoal, either half or fully canvassed @ ~$750 each = $1,500. ==> can be had from a variety of makers in this price range; try the sales for most major department stores including Saks, Lord & Taylor, Nieman Marcus, Barneys, etc.) Those of you working at Lehman may need a third suit, but most banks these days are business casual.

- 7x dress shirts @ ~$65 each = $455. ==> Try Brooks Brothers, Charles Tyrwhitt, Land's End, etc., either traditional finish or non-iron.

- 3x dress shoes @ ~$290 each = $870. ==> Try Allen Edmonds or Alden; they don't have sales too often, but you can ask for "factory seconds" or hit up outlet stores. You would be fine with two pairs of oxfords (one black and one brown), as well as one pair of "dress casuals" (split-toe bluchers are versatile enough for a night on the town, too)

- 4x ties @ ~$80 each = $320. ==> If you go to sales at Bergdorf Goodman and most of the designers on Fifth Avenue, you can definitely find Ferragamo, Zegna, and occasionally Brioni and Hermes at less than $100 each. Century 21 also has Canali and Zegna for $50-60 every so often, why why not check there too?

- 7x dress socks @ ~$6 each = $42. ==> standard issue

- 4x dress slacks @ ~$80 each = $320. ==> Try Brooks Brothers or Lord & Taylor. Banana Republic is probably acceptable too if you look carefully enough, though it's often hard to tell the fineness of the wool since I don't think they usually print it on their labels.

- 3x leather belts @ ~$55 each = $165. ==> You'd probably want to get two black and one brown calfskin belts. Brooks Brothers makes a high quality 1 1/8" width belt that holds up quite well; Allen Edmonds (made by Crookhorn) and Alden are good too. Trafalgar is a lesser known maker among the average populace but they really have a good quality/value trade-off, and the leather stays soft for a long time. Like ties, belts are another item where you can really get them for cheap at sales if you know what to look for. Also, you can find really great deals off eBay for new or lightly used belts.

- 0x cufflinks. ==> As an intern or an analyst, you really don't need to be wearing cufflinked shirts, but if you want, you can probably spend anywhere between $5-200 to get a decent pair. Vintage ones are popular too, so look on eBay if those are your style.

TOTAL = $3,672

The suggestions offered above are probably more elaborate than what an intern needs, so given that something like what I described above should work for a full-time analyst or associate, I see no reason why an intern can't put together a decent wardrobe for around $2,500 (just by buying lesser-known makers and fewer total items). Hopefully this helps to show that it is clearly possible to put together a pleasant, long-lasting professional wardrobe with some "name brand" items that people on Wall Street seem unnecessarily preoccupied with...and you can do all of this for less than a few thousand dollars.

I hope this helps. Please feel free to add anything that I may have overlooked.

I disagree with recommending expensive suits.... no one notices!!

here is my tip, make sure the suit jacket fits, people always seem to wear a suit one size too big, i used to do the same!!!

if it is the right size then you are halfway there

second point is, don't buy "old men" suits (hugo boss, Austen Reed, - UK) if you are under 30. they all seem to be cut to accommodate a pot belly!!! get a slim fit and it makes a world of difference

always buy in a sale/discount, you could get 40-50% off "last seasons" suits..... no one will notice :)

just my opinion, i alway get compliments on suits but have never spent more then £250

Eh as an intern get something that is clean, fit and neat.

It's brand or w/e is irrelevant. Go to an outlet and be done with it.

1) I have worked on Wall Street at an investment bank for 2 years and I own exactly 2 suits, and that's just fine. I have 5-10 dress shirts but certainly don't need more than 5. Your mileage may vary, but I don't think more than this is really necessary UNLESS you do have to wear suits every day (which most places don't require).

2) Keep in mind this is targeted at interns.... spending much more than $2,000 is IMO a waste.

I spent less than $2,000 on a wardrobe and I have never once received a comment from anyone on appropriate attire or anything. In fact, no one even discusses fashion in the workplace or makes any comments about attire unless it's truly out of line.

That said, if you guys do want to spend a lot of money on clothes, I can do another version of this. The purpose of the links was more to just demonstrate where you could get these at specific price points.

Maybe others can chime in, but I guess my point here is that despite everything you hear about going crazy buying expensive clothes and all, no one really cares as long as you do good work, at least at the junior levels. So it's better to save on money, buy what you need at first and adapt as necessary.

Thanks for the comments (even the nasty ones :) - I may re-work this at some point.

hi dosk17...in case there was any confusion, my post was not meant as a criticism, but rather, just my perspective on what is appropriate for wall street dress. you're right about how people don't discuss your clothing unless it's egregiously bad -- but people don't always tell you what they're thinking, and it always helps to look good. as such, my suggestions for attire are based on what i believe to be a good quality/value trade-off, and the type of thing where junior personnel like analysts or interns will never have qualms about their appearance. in addition, the suggestions i offered are also intended for durability and longevity -- for example, a good pair of allen edmonds or alden shoes like the ones i suggested should last several years with regular wear (with resoling as necessary) and good shirts can hold up for well over a year with proper care, so one can look at purchasing appropriate attire as a stable long-term investment. basically, you get what you pay for.

in the end, the whole point of my post was to illustrate how easy it is to put together a GOOD wardrobe on a fairly small budget, not how to put together a budget wardrobe on an even smaller budget. people should always work within their means, but within those means, people should aspire to be as polished as possible, especially if they want to be taken seriously.

I get that image is big on the street, but what about for interns at regional offices of BB's? I'll be in Houston as a S&T SA and was simply told business casual was the dress code. I can't imagine this requiring a several thousand dollar wardrobe upgrade, at least not for the interns.

Your addition was great, and yeah it's definitely possible to go a bit higher clas if you're willing to and still not spend a ridiculous amount.

Wx: At regional offices dress is less important, at least from what I've seen. If dress code is business casual I would not go crazy here - maybe get a suit just in case (even though it is business casual), 5 shirts and a few pairs of pants with the usual dress shoes.

If you're an intern at a regional office I would go with what numi wrote and reduce further. If you're really frugal you could get away with spending $1,000 or less if you want to take my "budget" suggestions. :)

Again, some may disagree but I honestly don't think it's critical to go all-out as an intern and especially not if you're at a regional office.

dosk - I think most everyone here is on board with your main point, that you don't need to spend $10K+ on your wardrobe. What was missing—that is abundant in most of your other posts—was the "insider info." Anyone with half a brain can outfit themselves with business casual from banana republic, but as others have pointed out, those in the know find better quality at lower prices (e.g. Express, Brooks for shirts).

Your response, "That said, if you guys do want to spend a lot of money on clothes, I can do another version of this," misses the point. $2,000 is a reasonable budget, but a really savvy shopper could get a lot more for their money than what you suggested.

More tips on how to choose/evaluate each item would be good too. For example, you say, "Perfect fit is absolutely essential with suits, so don’t skimp on quality. You can save money on the rest of your wardrobe, but a good, quality suit is a worthy investment." However, you give no criteria of how a suit should fit and how to evaluate the quality.

The whole piece just seems uncharacteristically thin.

To be fair, you admitted upfront that you are not a fashion expert, but if that's true then perhaps you shouldn't be writing a fashion guide. Stick to topics where you can really offer valuable, unique, personal insight—that's what has made most of your other posts so great and your blog outstanding overall.

i can't but help feel like the people who are likely to post on this board are probably more likely to overemphasize the importance of clothes than others...it generally seems like on this board shit like this is emphasized to the detriment of other factors that are presumably more important--like being competent at your job and working your ass off.

Actually I would have never even considered writing a post on fashion but a bunch of people here wanted it.

Lesson learned, and in the future I'm not going to write about anything that I am not an expert on even if it means less content. The format will probably shift more toward Q&A as I work on other aspects of the site and some other projects as well.

And xqtrack: Yes, agreed that clothes are definitely over-emphasized here. But there's a whole bunch of other stuff like the whole "rank investment banks" game as well that are more common and equally useless.

No matter how much I try to convince people otherwise, sometimes there's no point in trying to de-emphasize something until they do it and learn firsthand what matters and what doesn't. :)

Dosk,

I'm a big fan of the blog and have suggested it to several friends of mine who are devoted readers now. That being said, I think there are definitely a few things you mentioned/suggested in your article that seem somewhat ridiculous. For the record, I come from a fairly uncouth background and am no fashion expert (which is probably why I ask a lot of fashion questions), but even with my limited knowledge the following still seem unbelievable and poor advice:

"Even if you have to wear a suit every day, you won’t need more than two or three suits, which already allows for proper suit rotation and laundering."

I'm going to be summering at a business formal bank and please tell me how it acceptable to only have 2 suits in such an environment? I currently own three (solid navy, pinstripe navy, pinstripe grey, and am looking for a solid grey/charcoal). I don't care to spend a ton of money on suits, but just can't see any way I could pull off only wearing three suits for 4-5 different days a week. Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't they get wrinkled and look like shit come Thursday when I'm going for the second wear? Secondly, how are we suppose to have time to launder them during the week? I'm not trying to be an ass with these questions, I would seriously like to know if it is possible, and if so - how, to pull off only having 2-3 suits when I'll be wearing a suit 4-5 days a week?

"Black suits are the most common and most conservative."

To steal a little from modern physics, the only grand unifying dress rule I have heard from every single banker or former banker contact I have is: "Never ever wear a black suit - wear navy and/or charcoal/grey." Therefore, is this not the norm (despite everyone seeming to agree with this)? Is it actually okay to sport black suits?

I deleted the link since clearly I have been out-voted here.

Keyser, as to your questions:

You generally do NOT wash a suit every time you wear it because in MOST offices you don't wear the jacket every moment of the day even if you have to wear the suit into work. And if the suit is halfway decent it will not get wrinkled so easily. I would wear suit 1 on Monday, suit 2 on Tuesday and suit 3 on Wednesday then go back to suit 1/2 on Thursday/Friday.

And yes the black suit thing was off because my guest writer is not aware of this in banking.

PERSONALLY, I HAVE worn black (or at least dark grey) suits before and NO ONE has mentioned anything to me ever. Yes, I know it's "against the rules" but honestly unless you do something incredibly stupid e.g. wear shorts to work, no one is going to say anything to you.

I've deleted everything and will get rid of this thread shortly since so many people disagreed/did not find this useful.

dosk17, you really didn't do anything wrong and you should feel free to write whatever you want...it's your blog. people have different opinions as to what makes for professional attire -- my opinion is outlined clearly in my post above (and hopefully the readers here find it informative) -- but people will have fundamentally different opinions on how to dress based on their culture, upbringing, where they are working, and so forth. that being said, people should be readily accepting of each others' differences, agree to disagree, or whatever similar expression there is to describe the situation...but bottom line is, there's really not much wrong with what you wrote and you shouldn't feel like you owe people anything. (if it's any consolation, it appears that the majority of people here know less about basic professional attire than you, simply by virtue of the fact that they don't work on wall street)

i think you should just leave this thread alone and let it run its course...compared to most of the other threads on this board, this one actually has a purpose and people can learn from the discussion here

Buy a fourth suit and dry-clean your stuff once during the summer...you should be fine.

But I do feel bad giving people advice that so many disagree with.

Especially since the whole point of the blog in the first place was to help people achieve their goals.

I'll take a look at some of the other suggestions here and change around the post to better reflect what's acceptable and what's not.

no, you shouldn't feel bad about anything. maybe you had one post that sort of missed the mark...no big deal. aside from the black suit comment, nothing was egregiously bad in my view (and i consider myself to be pretty conscious of professional attire). people should be grateful for your contributions, and i think most people are.

by the way, if you think any of the stuff i wrote is useful and you happen to agree with it, feel free to use it on your site

so out of curiosity (i mean this genuinely), can most of you tell if someone is wearing a say 300 dollar suit or like an 800 dollar one? obviously, theres a huge jump when like when you go to kmart quality, but once you hit 100% wool, do you think you can really tell the difference between what your analyst colleagues wear?

May take you up on that and use some of your suggestions.

xqtrack: In my 2 years as an Analyst I have never once heard a comment from anyone about the quality of anyone's suit (at least at the Analyst level). From a fashion perspective I couldn't tell you, but from my own experiences, it's a pretty rare topic of conversation... complaining about work/office gossip dominates 90% of conversations.

Dosk please keep posting as much as possible. Your blog is fantastic and is one of the top 5 resources I cite in a guide for students interested at banking at my university. People disagree on small things on this board for a lot of subjects. Please do not be discouraged.

Question for the masses: Why are we not supposed to wear a black suit? I landed my position at a BB in a black suit and used to wear one to the office every few days or so at a MM last summer.

I couldn't tell you what something cost, but I can usually tell if someone is wearing low quality crap. It's not the cost, it's the quality of the material, the fit, etc. For instance, if you find the right tailor in a place like Hong Kong, you can look like a hero for under $500. What someone is wearing certainly wouldn't make me think more or less of anyone.

For the record, six months ago I didn't even know what a lapel is. While I prize competence above dressing well, there are definite advantages to using the way you dress as a signaling device. Besides that, a well-made suit is not so much about impressing people as it is about you being comfortable in what you're wearing when you're pulling serious hours.

There is nothing snobbish about style, though unfortunately many proponents do exhibit such tendencies. I understand both sides of the debate, but it's really not that hard to see the sensible middle ground here.

Black is, in many circles, reserved for funerals and evening wear. There is an air of added formality attached to the color allowing for this distinction. This "rule" has been relaxed a lot, and in less formal settings people are often seen wearing black during the day. Same goes for Japan, if I'm not mistaken, but there is a different cultural backdrop there.

I generally adhere to wearing no black during the day, but whether the distinction makes sense to you is your choice to make.

Trying to give advice on this is the hardest thing to do. It's like saying, "This is the best food". It's all a matter of preference and personal feelings. I think your point is effective, that "you don't need to spend a fortune". That said, your blog is fantastic and keep it up. Thanks!

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Either you sling crack rock or you got a wicked jump shot

If you wear a black suit, you'll hear this one quite a lot: "What, is he a waiter?" If you get laid off or fired, the office wag will inevitably say "Well, now he can finally chase his dream of being a waiter!" The funeral/formal event comment has some merit, but overall it just looks odd for a few reasons.

i can't tell how much someone paid for their suit since prices themselves can vary widely, but usually you get more or less what you paid for and $300 only buys so much. of course, a fair amount of suits in this price range are in fact "100% wool." but just as there is a huge range in prices and quality for cars or any other semi-precious item, such a range exists as well for the prices and quality of wool.

it's true that the most important element of a suit is proper fitting, and even average suits can be made to look good if they fit someone properly. similarly, you can ruin a $3,000 brioni suit if the measurements are not correct. that being said, quality of suits is generally detectable; even if someone can't put their finger on exactly why the suit looks expensive or cheap, it seems like people can form pretty good gut impressions of them. mostly you learn by experience; in my case, i have my suits made-to-measure and just going through the process of picking out your fabric and style can generally entail going through dozens of fabric samples. at this point, i have a better sense of what i'm looking for compared to a few years ago.

if you're really curious about learning more, i recommend a book called "dressing the man" by alan flusser. it explains a lot of the points i mentioned as well as a number of other clothing basics. to anyone that's concerned, reading this book hardly makes you a "fashion snob" if that's what you're worried about; granted, flusser's suggestions tend to be on the very conservative side, but you do gain a lot of fundamental knowledge from the book, especially when it comes to the history of men's formal and business wear, as well as proper fitting. a lot of people have read this book, especially in the finance and law professions.

On the topic of laundering suits - generally you should only dry clean suits at MOST at the change of every season. Of course, this does not bode well for daily wear, so the conclusion here is that you should have enough suits so that you can be rotate enough as to not wear through your suits. You needn't dry clean after every wear because wool does not hold odors. Obviously hang and let air properly, and dry clean if you spill anything. But on any normal day, just wear and hang - too much dry cleaning can really damage your suits.

If you do feel like you need to spruce up your suit, just have it steamed and pressed. I've probably accumulated about 14 or 15 suits over the past 3 years, but I probably only wear 4 or 5 (some of the suits I bought in the past I utterly regret buying).

can you put the article back up? it seems kind of funny i want to read it

I own this book and while I never had the time to read through it cover to cover I found particularly helpful the guidelines on dinner jackets (which I intend to follow in making any formal-dinner wear that may crop up in the near future).

While certain aspects of suit "fashion" come and go (single vent, double vent, flat front, pleats, narrower lapels, etc.), I echo numi that this book gives a great introduction to making your business apparel rather "timeless."

I think speaking generally, I can always tell the difference between off-the-rack shirts and MTM shirts on people. I can almost always tell the difference between MTM and bespoke.

With suits it's much more distinctive what's MTM and what's bespoke, though.

Regardless, I still love your site!!! I get so excited I pee myself a little bit whenever I see a new article on my RSS feed.

Kidding... sort of...

i definitely agree with GameTheory here

as an aside, in my earlier post, i wrote "MTM" when in fact i meant "bespoke." i think that when one actually goes through the process of having a suit made from scratch, one can learn a lot about the entire design process, since the suit is both designed and cut by a tailor and then sewn together by a coatmaker. the suit is not only made based off your measurements, but also takes into account your posture and movements...and as such, there is no standardized pattern for any one individual.

personally, most of what i learned about fitting came from going through the motions of getting a suit made, and having to go through multiple fittings in order to make sure that everything looked good. that being said, i never once considered getting a bespoke suit when i interned or even started working in finance, partially due to the fact that i didn't have that much money, but mostly due to the fact that i didn't really know what i was looking for.

i personally think of "bespoke" as a description of the process of crafting a suit from scratch, whereas "MTM" refers to a suit is cut from a stock pattern, but adjustments to that stock are made in order to best fit your measeurements. the suit is essentially finished once you see it for the first time, with some slight tailoring as necessary. that being said, a good MTM suit, in spite of its being based on a mass-produced pattern stock, should still look great on someone if proper measurements are carried out. at the end of the day, fit is what matters most, and i think most people would be fine with either a bespoke, MTM, or an off-the-rack suit as long as it fits the person that's wearing it.

It's only when you go through the bespoke process that you realize how badly your OTR suits fit...

I checked out the receipts I had when I was buying everything for summer. It came out to:

Shirts (12 @ $42 each) = $593.80
Pants (4 @ $91 each) = $366.85
Suit (3 @ $437 each) = $1311
Socks (15 pairs @ $7.50 each) = $113.12
Shoe Trees (4 @ $14.78 each) = $59.12
Tailor fees for everything = $535

TOTAL: $2978.89

So ~$3000 sounds about right. The number could definitely be trimmed down with say, 1 less suit, 4 less shirts, 5 less pairs of socks and 2 less shoe trees. I really cannot possibly do laundry on a weekly basis though so I bit the bullet a little bit.

Hopefully this helps...

Slightly off topic, but for those of you who may have wondered what super 120 meant or what a floating canvas is, a good resource is this blog written by a Saville Row tailor:

http://www.englishcut.com/

The blog is not very structured but he does provide an insider’s view on sartorial matters and frequently addresses the issue of customers having differing means. I would recommend going through the archives or using the search function.

I just got 3 pairs of Incotex super 100s and super 120s trousers for about the price that you had listed for a pair of BR trousers (at over 80% off). Also got a number of RL Black Label shirts for over 50% off. This is how to build a killer wardrobe on a budget.

So i've never been to the tailor's before and was just wondering, Let's say i bought a MTM suit where the only adjustments they make for you are the sleeves. (in my experience, albeit only one)

Are the tailor's that you see in dry cleaner's reliable to do your tailoring? Where would be an ideal place in Northern NJ/ Bergen County to find a good and relatively cheap tailor? What do you get tailored to have your suit fitted? What about pants? (no break at ankles, comfortable waist, and obviously regular rise waist?)

I'm having a tough time with finding dress shirts as if I buy size SMALL, the collar is kind of tight. But if I buy MEDIUM, the shirt is too long and it shows through in the back of my pants and the sleeves are too long.
-Can tailor's make the neck bigger? Generally, how big should your dress shirt neck size be compared to your actual size? 1/2" bigger? is it all based on preference?

What about the amount the collar shows when wearing the suit jacket. 1/2"?

Also, another question is, are black suits just bad in banking or in the finance arena? What about wealth management, what about S&T, and buy-side positions?

if you buy a MTM suit, how is it that the only adjustments they make for you are the sleeves? did you mean that they took all your necessary measurements and produce the suit for you, and only afterwards realize there was a problem with the sleeve lengths and tailored them accordingly? or did they only measure your sleeves when you were buying the jacket (which would be terribly wrong)? for the most part, assuming you bought a MTM suit, it should generally fit you pretty well and any alterations, if needed, should be minor at best. (refer to my earlier post as to what "MTM" should be defined as)

generally i wouldn't go to the dry cleaners to get my suits tailored -- go to someone that your family or more senior people at your firm can refer you to, or a tailor that's reputable for working with men's attire.

as for your shirts, you need to start looking for dress shirts and leave the casual shirts behind. if all you are seeing is an "S" or an "M" for sizing, the shirt is casual. be attentive to both the collar and sleeve measurements -- dress shirts should provide you with both. collars and sleeves that are ill-fitting are equally unacceptable. it is not a matter of personal "preference" as you put it -- there is no other choice besides buying a shirt that fits you best. i would recommend going to see a master tailor just to ensure that your measurements are performed properly, but if this isn't a big deal to you, the salespeople at higher end stores (perhaps turnbull & asser, kiton, brioni, etc.) can take your measurements. if you're in the new york area, it's worth visiting these stores just to make sure your measurements are taken correctly, even if you don't intend to buy from them.

regarding collars, there should be approximately 1/2" of collar showing above the jacket collar. in fact, one of the most common and telltale signs of an ill-fitting jacket are not only sleeves being too long (or too short), but also when the collar is incorrect and should be raised or lowered. importantly, note well the positioning of the jacket relative to your shirt collar; it should neither be puckering (too tight) nor standing away from your neck (too loose). the jacket should more or less hug your neck and incorrect collars are one of the most common issues with suit jackets -- that's why a proper suit fitting should really go from top to down.

hope that answers all your questions...further, as GameTheory and i mentioned in earlier postings, i highly recommend a book called "dressing the man" by alan flusser. that you are asking these questions is certainly a good indication of your potential attention to detail, and therefore further reinforces the value of investing $40 in the flusser book. you won't be disappointed.

Good advice numi, but I'd caveat that 16-32 or 15 1/2-34 is not a whole lot better than small or medium. Different brands/styles of shirts can be cut vastly differently, most notably through the waist, chest, shoulders, and sleeve width/arm opening. Suffice it to say, don't buy anything until you've tried it on or it is a brand you already know.

Personally, I have a terrible time finding shirts, mostly because my neck is too big for my body (wide neck, narrow shoulders/chest). I work in a business casual environment, so I mostly buy shirts that are 1/2"-1" too small at the neck (i.e. I can just barely button the top button, if at all) but only wear them without a tie. I have a handful of shirts that I can actually wear a tie with, but even with careful selection, slim fits, euro brands, paying more than I should, etc. they still tend to feel like I'm wearing a garbage bag. I haven't gone to a tailor but know that I should one of these days.

i agree, AltESV. ultimately, one has to try on the shirt to make sure it fits well, but it sounded like liquiditys still needs to get basic measurements taken. it's definitely a good point in that not all "16-32's" will fit the same; in fact, most of the time, they don't.

i have the same issue with you regarding shirts that may be too "baggy", i.e. i need shirts to first and foremost fit around my neck and chest area, but the ideal shirt would also taper a bit on the sides too. i find that i've had some luck with fitted shirts from thomas pink and charles tyrwhitt, and even though there is still a reasonable amount of excess fabric in certain areas, it's something that i'm ok with. i realize that most people probably aren't as attentive to this stuff as i am, and secondly, as long as i'm buying off the rack, i have to accept that things won't fit like a bespoke. and that's all fine and dandy, because i don't have money to get every single one of my shirts bespoke, and i also feel less badly about putting a shirt that i bought off the rack through the daily wear and tear.

Yeah, I mostly wear Charles Tyrwhitt, regular cut, 1/2" small on the neck. Slim fit shirts are hit and miss for me, as I'm honestly not that slim (beer gut). My problem is mostly in the shoulders. I've got a couple thomas pinks that I can wear ties with, but they are a bit too expensive for me to outfit my whole wardrobe with, and still a little too baggy in the shoulders. My most recent success has been with a Ralph Lauren Black Label shirt, although that's even more expensive than Pink, but it fits me better than any shirt I've had in the last 5+ years.

If you're buying Pink or RL Black Label, go MTM. You can easily get shirts for $90-110 that will fit you a thousand times better than off-the-rack ever will. Any high end department store will have MTM programs (although Saks and Neiman are outrageous because you pay for brand names like Zegna). Nordstrom (if there is one by you, out of luck if you're in NYC) carries Individualized Shirts as their MTM maker, and they're decent, and various mens clothiers. If you're in NYC there are some very good MTM shirtmakers out there.

I always instantly think of mark to market when I hear MTM- which in a sense is what it is.

hehe, have you been reading American Psycho!?

I just checked out Nordstrom... price starts at $145 and goes to $295 for MTM. Also, it's not really MTM; they have pre-cut stock and you basically just choose the details. They'll only take two measurements: neck and sleeve. I still got a couple of shirts, because the sales person was really nice.