Pages

  • Sharebar

who perfectly followed the Goldman/Morgan to TPG/KKR to HBS career path? It would be interesting to see how they all turned out, whether they became Partners at TPG/KKR now or decided to settle down with a family and work at a less-stressful job, and if so, if working their asses off for the majority of their youth was worth it.

Any one have any anecdotes/friends who went this path?

The WSO Advantage - Investment Banking

Financial Modeling Training

IB Templates, M&A, LBO, Valuation + Learn More.

IB Interview Prep Pack

30,000+ sold & REAL questions Learn More.

Resume Help from Actual IB Pros

Land More IB Interviews. Learn More.

Find Your Perfect IB Mentor

Realistic IB Mock Interviews. Learn More.

Comments (61)

  • Slaying Alpha's picture

    I was a 2005 analyst so, most of my class and the couple before me recruited into PE/HF for 2005/2006/2007 starts, the handful that went to mega funds, went to HBS/GSB, and ended at fairly brand name shops. Shops ranging from Lindsay Goldberg up to Paulson/Soros/Moore.

    From the guys I kept up with didn't see anyone go from like a Francisco Partners --> Wharton --> TPG, but they would go to a comparable shop whether in tech of similar sized fund...

    Those that went from
    TPG/KKR/BX/H&F/Bain Cap/SLP --> HBS/GSB --> comparable fund/top-tier HF

    --
    Interview Guides
    GMAT Tutors
    WSO Resume Review
    ---
    Current:
    Senior Analyst - Hedge Fund
    Past:
    Associate - Tech Buyout
    Analyst - Morgan St

  • ibhopeful532's picture

    I have a friend who did 3 years Lazard, a year at real-estate PE fund before it was acquired by Apollo, and is currently a VP. For someone who achieved what is regarded as true objective success, he doesn't seem to be too happy about it.

    The thing is, sooner or later, most people begin to realize that as they get older, money and prestige are not sufficient to bring fulfillness. Remember that child-hood giddiness you might've had, dreaming about being an astronaut, an aerospace engineer, an archaeologist, a pilot? Very few 10 year olds have dreams about being in investment banking / private equity.

    Unfortunately - by that time, most risk-averse individuals (i.e. the type that enters finance), are shackled by golden-hand-cuffs. They make a good living, enough to support a family, not enough to truly achieve permanent financial security (i.e. they can't just quit their jobs). It's also too late for most of them to pursue what they truly may have wanted to do in life (e.g. become a pilot or something).

    People tend to think life is a race with other people. They don't realize that every moment they spend sprinting towards the finish line is a moment they lose permanently, and a moment closer to their death.

  • Edmundo Braverman's picture

    +1 on the Coach reference, LIBOR.

    I actually got to meet him a couple times and he was a truly incredible person. I loved to hear him talk about "Lewis" (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) and for some reason I always remember a crack Adam Carolla made once on The Man Show:

    "That was back before Lew Alcindor became Cassius Clay..."

  • In reply to ibhopeful532
    coldbeverage's picture

    ibhopeful532:
    I have a friend who did 3 years Lazard, a year at real-estate PE fund before it was acquired by Apollo, and is currently a VP. For someone who achieved what is regarded as true objective success, he doesn't seem to be too happy about it.

    The thing is, sooner or later, most people begin to realize that as they get older, money and prestige are not sufficient to bring fulfillness. Remember that child-hood giddiness you might've had, dreaming about being an astronaut, an aerospace engineer, an archaeologist, a pilot? Very few 10 year olds have dreams about being in investment banking / private equity.

    Unfortunately - by that time, most risk-averse individuals (i.e. the type that enters finance), are shackled by golden-hand-cuffs. They make a good living, enough to support a family, not enough to truly achieve permanent financial security (i.e. they can't just quit their jobs). It's also too late for most of them to pursue what they truly may have wanted to do in life (e.g. become a pilot or something).

    People tend to think life is a race with other people. They don't realize that every moment they spend sprinting towards the finish line is a moment they lose permanently, and a moment closer to their death.

    so where do you fit in here? were you one of those rare 10 year olds?

  • In reply to ibhopeful532
    LLcoolJ's picture

    ibhopeful532:
    I have a friend who did 3 years Lazard, a year at real-estate PE fund before it was acquired by Apollo, and is currently a VP. For someone who achieved what is regarded as true objective success, he doesn't seem to be too happy about it.

    The thing is, sooner or later, most people begin to realize that as they get older, money and prestige are not sufficient to bring fulfillness. Remember that child-hood giddiness you might've had, dreaming about being an astronaut, an aerospace engineer, an archaeologist, a pilot? Very few 10 year olds have dreams about being in investment banking / private equity.

    Unfortunately - by that time, most risk-averse individuals (i.e. the type that enters finance), are shackled by golden-hand-cuffs. They make a good living, enough to support a family, not enough to truly achieve permanent financial security (i.e. they can't just quit their jobs). It's also too late for most of them to pursue what they truly may have wanted to do in life (e.g. become a pilot or something).

    People tend to think life is a race with other people. They don't realize that every moment they spend sprinting towards the finish line is a moment they lose permanently, and a moment closer to their death.

    speak for yourself.

    being a pilot would be boring as shit. becoming an astronaut/aerospace engineer would require years studying extremely difficult shit all day just to get a shot, and the success rate is far lower than in any other field. 10 year olds don't know shit about anything other than whats been glorified in popular culture.

    private equity/hedge fund work on the other hand is exciting and challenging. if successful you can find yourself truly powerful. detectives can have 10 year olds fantasize about their jobs after watching CSI:Miami, i would rather take my bonus please.

  • bo schembechler's picture

    a man is successful if he wakes up in the morning, goes to bed at night, and does what he wants in between

    - bob dylan

  • In reply to bo schembechler
    LLcoolJ's picture

    bo schembechler:
    a man is successful if he wakes up in the morning, goes to bed at night, and does what he wants in between

    - bob dylan

    most people use this "attitude" to backwards rationalize/justify their unproductive lifestyles. ironically they up the most unfulfilled.

  • In reply to bo schembechler
    monyet's picture

    bo schembechler:
    a man is successful if he wakes up in the morning, goes to bed at night, and does what he wants in between

    - bob dylan

    That would discount bankers then wouldn't it? They work on DCF models late into the night, they don't sleep.

  • In reply to ibhopeful532
    econ's picture

    ibhopeful532:

    People tend to think life is a race with other people. They don't realize that every moment they spend sprinting towards the finish line is a moment they lose permanently, and a moment closer to their death.

    Well said.

  • In reply to ibhopeful532
    monkeysama's picture

    ibhopeful532:
    I have a friend who did 3 years Lazard, a year at real-estate PE fund before it was acquired by Apollo, and is currently a VP. For someone who achieved what is regarded as true objective success, he doesn't seem to be too happy about it.

    The thing is, sooner or later, most people begin to realize that as they get older, money and prestige are not sufficient to bring fulfillness. Remember that child-hood giddiness you might've had, dreaming about being an astronaut, an aerospace engineer, an archaeologist, a pilot? Very few 10 year olds have dreams about being in investment banking / private equity.

    Unfortunately - by that time, most risk-averse individuals (i.e. the type that enters finance), are shackled by golden-hand-cuffs. They make a good living, enough to support a family, not enough to truly achieve permanent financial security (i.e. they can't just quit their jobs). It's also too late for most of them to pursue what they truly may have wanted to do in life (e.g. become a pilot or something).

    People tend to think life is a race with other people. They don't realize that every moment they spend sprinting towards the finish line is a moment they lose permanently, and a moment closer to their death.

    What most people want to be when they're ten is heavily influenced on uniform. Very small children want to be firemen, police officers, and doctors because their snazy outfits are easily recognizable as symbols of authority and prestige. For children who are just beginning to grasp social norms this can be very powerful.

    Also, you should poll all those friends who didn't manage to make it in finance and instead followed their dreams to art school. I imagine those friends are not nearly as happy as your VP banker.....

  • In reply to monkeysama
    ibhopeful532's picture

    What most people want to be when they're ten is heavily influenced on uniform. Very small children want to be firemen, police officers, and doctors because their snazy outfits are easily recognizable as symbols of authority and prestige. For children who are just beginning to grasp social norms this can be very powerful.

    Also, you should poll all those friends who didn't manage to make it in finance and instead followed their dreams to art school. I imagine those friends are not nearly as happy as your VP banker.....

    So let me get this straight - you're saying that bankers somehow are granted real prestige / authority? The prestige assigned to a doctor, a fireman, a police officer is *very* different than the "prestige" of a banker.

  • International Pymp's picture

    Prestige is a glorious thing. That said, the main reason I pursue prestige at this point in my career is not to feel good about myself (people that do that are lame / have personal issues). The main reason is that my experience working at a first time private equity fund has shown me that prestige and track record are crucial to being able to raise capital from limited partners. I want to have my own PE fund on day, and I'll need to have worked at some successful PE shops / banks and have built relationships and a reputation in the industry before I can do that... The ultimate goal for any true PE player should be to start your own Fund... not have the "prestige" of working at BX / KKR... I'd rather have my own 500mm fund (chairman/ceo) then be a SMD at blackstone making the same amount of money... the sky is the limit if you're the boss and you don't have to take shit from anyone (other than your LPs)

  • 7toaster's picture

    Are bankers even assigned any prestige these days? After getting bailed out by the gov't for all the mayhem they caused and destroying people's 401k's and home values? (At least that's what the public narrative is) If anything, I personally go around telling people "Yeah, I got an offer in finance. I know, I know, the only reason I'm taking it is because I got rejected from Google and Facebook... :( " (I'm a software dev by the way)

    What tangible good do bankers do for society that would give them any form of prestige? A doctor and fireman save people's lives. A soldier risks (and often gives) their lives to fight for freedom, supposedly. A software engineer at Google, Apple, or Facebook makes a product that simplifies people's lives and/or enriches their experiences. What does a banker do for anyone besides himself or herself?

    Jealousy is not prestige. People are jealous of bankers and high-end prostitutes, but they don't admire them. But people admire soldiers, doctors, firefighters, and Peace Corps volunteers, but aren't jealous of them.

The WSO Advantage - Investment Banking

Financial Modeling Training

IB Templates, M&A, LBO, Valuation + Learn More.

IB Interview Prep Pack

30,000+ sold & REAL questions Learn More.

Resume Help from Actual IB Pros

Land More IB Interviews. Learn More.

Find Your Perfect IB Mentor

Realistic IB Mock Interviews. Learn More.

  • MPG's picture

    I've been an aerospace engineer, and my best friends are fighter/helicopter pilots. Both of my parents are cops. I have friends who are doctors. We all agree--these jobs are OVER RATED. With exception of being a doctor (if you can get past the shitty years). Its a good way to start a career, not end one.

    To me, enjoying life means making enough money to do what I want and support my family. It's not retirement if all you can afford to do is watch TV and eat at home, and have health insurance.

  • 7toaster's picture

    Yes those jobs are "overrated," that's what I was saying. They are prestigious jobs to the outside observer, which leads to their high "ratings" so to speak, that ultimately the jobs don't live up to (thus the word "over-rated"). If you're a firefighter, you don't spend all day rescuing babies from burning buildings, or saving people's lives from falling skyscapers.

    But if you're a firefighter, people see you AS A HERO. Doesn't matter whether you actually are. Doesn't matter whether you just spend all day sitting on your ass playing Xbox because there are no fires to fight. People will pay you respect and deference. That's what prestige is. It's an appearance, not a reality. If you're a firefighter, people will buy you drinks "for your service and heroism." When has anyone ever considered a banker a hero?

  • In reply to ibhopeful532
    monkeysama's picture

    ibhopeful532:
    What most people want to be when they're ten is heavily influenced on uniform. Very small children want to be firemen, police officers, and doctors because their snazy outfits are easily recognizable as symbols of authority and prestige. For children who are just beginning to grasp social norms this can be very powerful.

    Also, you should poll all those friends who didn't manage to make it in finance and instead followed their dreams to art school. I imagine those friends are not nearly as happy as your VP banker.....

    So let me get this straight - you're saying that bankers somehow are granted real prestige / authority? The prestige assigned to a doctor, a fireman, a police officer is *very* different than the "prestige" of a banker.

    They're not prestigious or anything. Children simply view them as powerful because they mistakenly view the wearing of special clothes as a sign of authority. Honestly, why do people always equate the "what a ten year old dreams of being when they grow up" as a high watermark of success? All those jobs, with perhaps the exception of astronaut, blow. I know cops - they sit around in their cruisers all day waiting to write traffic tickets. Firemen get more ass than a toilet seat, which is nice, but dying in a fire or of lung cancer certainly isn't.

    Fuck that, I want money.

  • In reply to monkeysama
    7toaster's picture

    monkeysama:

    Fuck that, I want money.

    Yeah that's great, but don't expect to be admired or idolized for being a sell-out and a prostitute. There are many legitimate reasons to sell-out for money, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. I'm not judging you. In fact I'm doing the exact same thing as you. It's a choice that you've made. Embrace the fact that you're selling your soul to the devil for cold cash; don't hide from it or try to convince people that you're being a noble person for it.

    Nothing wrong with being a sell-out, but being a hypocrite is unforgivable.

  • In reply to Slaying Alpha
    Brady4MVP's picture

    Slaying Alpha:
    I was a 2005 analyst so, most of my class and the couple before me recruited into PE/HF for 2005/2006/2007 starts, the handful that went to mega funds, went to HBS/GSB, and ended at fairly brand name shops. Shops ranging from Lindsay Goldberg up to Paulson/Soros/Moore.

    From the guys I kept up with didn't see anyone go from like a Francisco Partners --> Wharton --> TPG, but they would go to a comparable shop whether in tech of similar sized fund...

    Those that went from
    TPG/KKR/BX/H&F/Bain Cap/SLP --> HBS/GSB --> comparable fund/top-tier HF

    I thought francisco partners was a solid shop? Or am I wrong about that?

    Do the people you know who went to paulson/soros/moore type places, go to b-school before ending up there or did they make the jump straight from the sell-side? I imagine if you can land paulson without b-school, there's no need to get your MBA.

  • In reply to 7toaster
    gupta23's picture

    7toaster:
    monkeysama:

    Fuck that, I want money.

    Yeah that's great, but don't expect to be admired or idolized for being a sell-out and a prostitute. There are many legitimate reasons to sell-out for money, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. I'm not judging you. In fact I'm doing the exact same thing as you. It's a choice that you've made. Embrace the fact that you're selling your soul to the devil for cold cash; don't hide from it or try to convince people that you're being a noble person for it.

    Nothing wrong with being a sell-out, but being a hypocrite is unforgivable.

    lol I agree, all of those jobs fuckin blow, 50k a year motherfuckin peasants, their life isn't so calm and stress free when they have to pay a 30 year mortgage on their sh1t 300k house and lowlife lifestyle. Who the fuck actually considers fireman as a respectable job? These people are fuckin retarded.

  • happypantsmcgee's picture

    ^I sincerely hope this was sarcasm

    If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

  • IlliniProgrammer's picture

    This gupta23 character is consistently misogynistic, racist, xenophobic, and has zero spelling or grammar skills. Most damning, though, is that he isn't funny, lol. It's mouth-breathing idiots like him that give this board a bad rep

    Lol, Does anyone remember what Gupta posted as an OP in the thread he now tried to delete? Let me guess, he wanted to know the best route from Jr. High to GS...

  • In reply to 7toaster
    International Pymp's picture

    7toaster:
    Are bankers even assigned any prestige these days? After getting bailed out by the gov't for all the mayhem they caused and destroying people's 401k's and home values? (At least that's what the public narrative is) If anything, I personally go around telling people "Yeah, I got an offer in finance. I know, I know, the only reason I'm taking it is because I got rejected from Google and Facebook... :( " (I'm a software dev by the way)

    What tangible good do bankers do for society that would give them any form of prestige? A doctor and fireman save people's lives. A soldier risks (and often gives) their lives to fight for freedom, supposedly. A software engineer at Google, Apple, or Facebook makes a product that simplifies people's lives and/or enriches their experiences. What does a banker do for anyone besides himself or herself?

    Jealousy is not prestige. People are jealous of bankers and high-end prostitutes, but they don't admire them. But people admire soldiers, doctors, firefighters, and Peace Corps volunteers, but aren't jealous of them.

    bankers are the oil in the engine of the global economy. Their highly specialized skills are what makes the world go around. their work is helping develop markets around the world and bringing hundreds if not thousands of people out of poverty every day.

  • D M's picture

    Gupta, I crown you the asshat of the day. Congratulation. Try not to let the crap get on your face.

    "You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer
    "Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee

  • BigBang's picture
  • In reply to gupta23
    Getgo's picture

    gupta23:
    7toaster:
    monkeysama:

    Fuck that, I want money.

    Yeah that's great, but don't expect to be admired or idolized for being a sell-out and a prostitute. There are many legitimate reasons to sell-out for money, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. I'm not judging you. In fact I'm doing the exact same thing as you. It's a choice that you've made. Embrace the fact that you're selling your soul to the devil for cold cash; don't hide from it or try to convince people that you're being a noble person for it.

    Nothing wrong with being a sell-out, but being a hypocrite is unforgivable.

    lol I agree, all of those jobs fuckin blow, 50k a year motherfuckin peasants, their life isn't so calm and stress free when they have to pay a 30 year mortgage on their sh1t 300k house and lowlife lifestyle. Who the fuck actually considers fireman as a respectable job? These people are fuckin retarded.

    That's harsh and sort of true. Someone making 50k per year spends $100 on a coat. Someone making 500k would spend around $800. Same goes with taking a mortgage out on a house and everything else. Everyone spends relatively over their limit. People should just live within their means.

  • In reply to gupta23
    econ's picture

    gupta23:

    lol I agree, all of those jobs fuckin blow, 50k a year motherfuckin peasants, their life isn't so calm and stress free when they have to pay a 30 year mortgage on their sh1t 300k house and lowlife lifestyle. Who the fuck actually considers fireman as a respectable job? These people are fuckin retarded.

    Philistine?

  • higher's picture

    guys, who the fk cares whether the average joe thinks u have a prestigious job or not? as a banker you don't interact with the average joe. don't try to impress people that are irrelevant.

  • In reply to International Pymp
    Saccard's picture

    International Pymp:
    7toaster:
    Are bankers even assigned any prestige these days? After getting bailed out by the gov't for all the mayhem they caused and destroying people's 401k's and home values? (At least that's what the public narrative is) If anything, I personally go around telling people "Yeah, I got an offer in finance. I know, I know, the only reason I'm taking it is because I got rejected from Google and Facebook... :( " (I'm a software dev by the way)

    What tangible good do bankers do for society that would give them any form of prestige? A doctor and fireman save people's lives. A soldier risks (and often gives) their lives to fight for freedom, supposedly. A software engineer at Google, Apple, or Facebook makes a product that simplifies people's lives and/or enriches their experiences. What does a banker do for anyone besides himself or herself?

    Jealousy is not prestige. People are jealous of bankers and high-end prostitutes, but they don't admire them. But people admire soldiers, doctors, firefighters, and Peace Corps volunteers, but aren't jealous of them.

    bankers are the oil in the engine of the global economy. Their highly specialized skills are what makes the world go around. their work is helping develop markets around the world and bringing hundreds if not thousands of people out of poverty every day.

    Look at IntPymp re: bankers are the oil in the engine of the economy. It's kind of ridiculous that you don't know/recognize the benefit bankers serve to society.

  • 7toaster's picture

    Of course I know the so-called "benefit that bankers serve to society" as the oil in capitalism, except I think most rational people wouldn't call it a "benefit to society" to promote and expand a global corporate supply-chain that:

    Exploits foreign children in sweatshops

    Clear cuts rainforests, permanently destroying thousands of unique species and altering the global climate

    Drops Agent Orange on tons civilian populations, leading to birth defects for generations

    Has chemical plant explosions that kill hundreds of thousands, then bribes gov't officials to look the other way

    Profits from war and lobbies to invade other countries for oil

    Yes there are *some* ethical corporations, such as Google. But there are many, many more Monsantos, Blackwater/Xes, Halliburtons, Dow Chemicals, BPs, Nikes, McDonalds, and Apples. By and large, corporations have no conscience. If a corporation is a "person", then it's a "person" whose only sense of pleasure is from profit and whose only sense of pain is loss.

  • In reply to ibhopeful532
    absinthe's picture

    ibhopeful532:
    I have a friend who did 3 years Lazard, a year at real-estate PE fund before it was acquired by Apollo, and is currently a VP. For someone who achieved what is regarded as true objective success, he doesn't seem to be too happy about it.

    The thing is, sooner or later, most people begin to realize that as they get older, money and prestige are not sufficient to bring fulfillness. Remember that child-hood giddiness you might've had, dreaming about being an astronaut, an aerospace engineer, an archaeologist, a pilot? Very few 10 year olds have dreams about being in investment banking / private equity.

    Unfortunately - by that time, most risk-averse individuals (i.e. the type that enters finance), are shackled by golden-hand-cuffs. They make a good living, enough to support a family, not enough to truly achieve permanent financial security (i.e. they can't just quit their jobs). It's also too late for most of them to pursue what they truly may have wanted to do in life (e.g. become a pilot or something).

    People tend to think life is a race with other people. They don't realize that every moment they spend sprinting towards the finish line is a moment they lose permanently, and a moment closer to their death.

    This is fucking depressing.

    Personally I like what I do, but I'm not in Banking/PE. Obviously I'll never know if there was a better path in terms of personal satisfaction and accomplishment (probably), but I definitely find my job very personally challenging and hence fulfilling.

    They could cut my paycheck in half and I would probably still do this over most other jobs. Actually, never mind I would probably go play online poker if they did that lol.

    Also, I know some people in PE who really enjoy it. Not my type of thing, but hey.

  • In reply to 7toaster
    higher's picture

    7toaster:
    Of course I know the so-called "benefit that bankers serve to society" as the oil in capitalism, except I think most rational people wouldn't call it a "benefit to society" to promote and expand a global corporate supply-chain that:

    Exploits foreign children in sweatshops

    Clear cuts rainforests, permanently destroying thousands of unique species and altering the global climate

    Drops Agent Orange on tons civilian populations, leading to birth defects for generations

    Has chemical plant explosions that kill hundreds of thousands, then bribes gov't officials to look the other way

    Profits from war and lobbies to invade other countries for oil

    Yes there are *some* ethical corporations, such as Google. But there are many, many more Monsantos, Blackwater/Xes, Halliburtons, Dow Chemicals, BPs, Nikes, McDonalds, and Apples. By and large, corporations have no conscience. If a corporation is a "person", then it's a "person" whose only sense of pleasure is from profit and whose only sense of pain is loss.


    such a communist wow.

    corporations are established to create profits for their shareholders. don't blame them for achieving their objective o0. They serve society through creating wealth for society, providing jobs, technological innovation, new consumer products.That's what they are made for. Corporations act ethically if it is in their best interest to do so, and do not act ethically if it is not aligned with shareholder interest.

  • eyelikecheese's picture

    ^^^Google is far from an ethical company. Truly, how can it be? They possess information about everyone and everything. There isn't any need to back up my assumptions once you realize the this is not a tech/engineering company. It is an INFORMATION company. With that much power, you actually can make less money, by making too much. Think about it...

    People only pursue prestige because they are brainwashed into a society that glorifies money and suppresses independence and free thought. We are encourage to spend, spend spend! by our government and corporations, don 't you ever wonder why are they always telling us to spend money??? They want us to become social slaves, slaves to them, so we can further dilute our minds with nonsensical objects,prestige jobs, and meaningless television shows. Once our life becomes "spend, spend, spend!" we are forced into wage slavery. Society makes it so that we HAVE to work to support our debt and our lifestyle. That is how so many people become depressed. unhappy, and truly resort to medications, alcohol, and watching television. All three of which pre-occupy your time just enough so that you never questions "why"?

    Luxury items and material possessions are non-indespensable, but a positive hindrance to the elevation of mankind-Henry David Thoreau.

  • In reply to higher
    Edmundo Braverman's picture

    higher:
    corporations are established to create profits for their shareholders. don't blame them for achieving their objective o0. They serve society through creating wealth for society, providing jobs, technological innovation, new consumer products.That's what they are made for. Corporations act ethically if it is in their best interest to do so, and do not act ethically if it is not aligned with shareholder interest.

    Wrong.

    Corporations were established (400 or so years ago) for one purpose and one purpose only: to limit liability. That's it. Nothing about maximizing shareholder value, providing employment, technological innovation, or any of the other beneficial byproducts they occasionally produce. The sole purpose of the corporate structure is to limit the liability of the owners of the corporation.

  • In reply to Edmundo Braverman
    LIBOR's picture

    Edmundo Braverman:
    higher:
    corporations are established to create profits for their shareholders. don't blame them for achieving their objective o0. They serve society through creating wealth for society, providing jobs, technological innovation, new consumer products.That's what they are made for. Corporations act ethically if it is in their best interest to do so, and do not act ethically if it is not aligned with shareholder interest.

    Wrong.

    Corporations were established (400 or so years ago) for one purpose and one purpose only: to limit liability. That's it. Nothing about maximizing shareholder value, providing employment, technological innovation, or any of the other beneficial byproducts they occasionally produce. The sole purpose of the corporate structure is to limit the liability of the owners of the corporation.

    Which lets them take excessive risk that a partnership or proprietorship cannot. Which gives the corporation an advantage by allowing it to accumulate wealth and knowledge which a partnership or proprietorship cannot. I've made this argument before, but corporations cannot exist at all without the government, unlike a partnership or proprietorship. So much for "free markets" when certain participants have an enormous advantage.

  • higher's picture

    oh no we r getting into the corporation govt. argument again didnt you have this ages ago in another thread over 3 pages libor?

  • In reply to higher
    LIBOR's picture

    higher:
    oh no we r getting into the corporation govt. argument again didnt you have this ages ago in another thread over 3 pages libor?

    haha yeah. I could probably write a book on it lol.

  • In reply to Edmundo Braverman
    Saccard's picture

    Edmundo Braverman:
    higher:
    corporations are established to create profits for their shareholders. don't blame them for achieving their objective o0. They serve society through creating wealth for society, providing jobs, technological innovation, new consumer products.That's what they are made for. Corporations act ethically if it is in their best interest to do so, and do not act ethically if it is not aligned with shareholder interest.

    Wrong.

    Corporations were established (400 or so years ago) for one purpose and one purpose only: to limit liability. That's it. Nothing about maximizing shareholder value, providing employment, technological innovation, or any of the other beneficial byproducts they occasionally produce. The sole purpose of the corporate structure is to limit the liability of the owners of the corporation.

    However, the main goal of corporations is to maximize profits. Profit maximization drives the corporation to provide goods and services that serve society.

  • In reply to higher
    Saccard's picture

    higher:
    7toaster:
    Of course I know the so-called "benefit that bankers serve to society" as the oil in capitalism, except I think most rational people wouldn't call it a "benefit to society" to promote and expand a global corporate supply-chain that:

    Exploits foreign children in sweatshops

    Clear cuts rainforests, permanently destroying thousands of unique species and altering the global climate

    Drops Agent Orange on tons civilian populations, leading to birth defects for generations

    Has chemical plant explosions that kill hundreds of thousands, then bribes gov't officials to look the other way

    Profits from war and lobbies to invade other countries for oil

    Yes there are *some* ethical corporations, such as Google. But there are many, many more Monsantos, Blackwater/Xes, Halliburtons, Dow Chemicals, BPs, Nikes, McDonalds, and Apples. By and large, corporations have no conscience. If a corporation is a "person", then it's a "person" whose only sense of pleasure is from profit and whose only sense of pain is loss.


    such a communist wow.

    corporations are established to create profits for their shareholders. don't blame them for achieving their objective o0. They serve society through creating wealth for society, providing jobs, technological innovation, new consumer products.That's what they are made for. Corporations act ethically if it is in their best interest to do so, and do not act ethically if it is not aligned with shareholder interest.

    I see a lot of extreme left sentiment on here and it is really disgusting. So you are saying that only big, profitable companies are evil? Once a company grows past a certain size does it suddenly act unethical? Do small mom and pop stores make you feel good inside? Do you ever shop at Walmart, Target, or any other company that benefits from economies of scale? How do you think they are able to offer their products at such low prices?

    And explain to me how third world countries are being taken advantage of when multinational companies pay their citizens a higher salary than they could get anywhere else in their country. Because you think they deserve an American minimum wage and health benefits and anything else is unethical?

  • In reply to Saccard
    eyelikecheese's picture

    LeveragedFiend:
    higher:
    7toaster:
    Of course I know the so-called "benefit that bankers serve to society" as the oil in capitalism, except I think most rational people wouldn't call it a "benefit to society" to promote and expand a global corporate supply-chain that:

    Exploits foreign children in sweatshops

    Clear cuts rainforests, permanently destroying thousands of unique species and altering the global climate

    Drops Agent Orange on tons civilian populations, leading to birth defects for generations

    Has chemical plant explosions that kill hundreds of thousands, then bribes gov't officials to look the other way

    Profits from war and lobbies to invade other countries for oil

    Yes there are *some* ethical corporations, such as Google. But there are many, many more Monsantos, Blackwater/Xes, Halliburtons, Dow Chemicals, BPs, Nikes, McDonalds, and Apples. By and large, corporations have no conscience. If a corporation is a "person", then it's a "person" whose only sense of pleasure is from profit and whose only sense of pain is loss.


    such a communist wow.

    corporations are established to create profits for their shareholders. don't blame them for achieving their objective o0. They serve society through creating wealth for society, providing jobs, technological innovation, new consumer products.That's what they are made for. Corporations act ethically if it is in their best interest to do so, and do not act ethically if it is not aligned with shareholder interest.

    I see a lot of extreme left sentiment on here and it is really disgusting. So you are saying that only big, profitable companies are evil? Once a company grows past a certain size does it suddenly act unethical? Do small mom and pop stores make you feel good inside? Do you ever shop at Walmart, Target, or any other company that benefits from economies of scale? How do you think they are able to offer their products at such low prices?

    And explain to me how third world countries are being taken advantage of when multinational companies pay their citizens a higher salary than they could get anywhere else in their country. Because you think they deserve an American minimum wage and health benefits and anything else is unethical?

    uh..yes

    Corporations aren't inherently unethical. The evolve into unethical beings just as human beings do, all in the pursuit of "people over profits", which is true, and at any cost.

    Please, humor me and tell me of one corporation that is ethical, based on your existing definition of ethics.
    Wal-Mart is truly a horrible example of a corporation. You would with the American Ideals and american people that made them become the successful juggernaut they have become, they would not put "people over profits". There is a reason people actually don't want Wal-mart's coming into their neighborhoods. It is truly the corporation of anti-americanism. They do kill off american businesses, while at the same time paying their workers horrible wages, and making insane profits..now riddle me that. Not too mention even trying to change horrible working/wage situations in developing countries. Instead of trying to be a face of American and a vehicle for change, they still have factories, especially in China where the products are bought from companies that engage in truly despicable acts. These are all facts. It's called a documentary, and there are dozens on just the questionable ethics of that ONE company. But I guess it's all justified, because US Americans are able to have cheaper prices on bs stuff we don't need.

    Any person/corporation that puts profits before people is morally corrupt and unethical. Too what extend, it depends on the actions, but inherently corrupt.

    I am no left-wing nutjob, just a realist who doesn't watch television and devotes time to truth, not government/corporate mandated truth that is propoganda only perpetuated by worthless media and useless shows

  • In reply to eyelikecheese
    Saccard's picture

    eyelikecheese:
    I am no left-wing nutjob

    You say this, yet you advocate getting rid of corporations. Get rid of your computer and everything else you bought from a corporation and then reevaluate whether they benefit society.

  • 7toaster's picture

    LeveragedFiend,

    You would ask the antebellum plantation owner's children whether slavery benefits society, wouldn't you?

    Because that's what we are. We're like the children of plantation owners. We're born as beneficiaries of a callous, soulless system that squeezes the lifeblood out of hardworking children around the world and which rewards us with cheap computers. We didn't ask to be born with a silver spoon in our mouths or blood on our , or to be born into a position where we have the power and education to make a real difference in the world.

    How about you ask instead ask the workers at FoxConn, one of Apple's suppliers that uses sweatshops and child labor, and recently faced a huge epidemic of worker suicides, whether they believe corporations benefit society?

  • 7toaster's picture
  • In reply to Saccard
    eyelikecheese's picture

    LeveragedFiend:
    eyelikecheese:
    I am no left-wing nutjob

    You say this, yet you advocate getting rid of corporations. Get rid of your computer and everything else you bought from a corporation and then reevaluate whether they benefit society.

    I'll regard the contentious debates for the prestige and greed threads..

    Obviously you have never read a book on informal logic, or how to structure response. I said nothing about getting rid of corporations, I just tried to get you to see your argument was inherently flawed and your logic open to reasonable criticism; that is all. Nor did I question the benefit of corporations on society, dear friend.

    Either your really lazy, a horrible argument structurer, or just buying time to research the questions I proposed to you, if that is the best response you have, may I suggest the book "Informal Logic :A handbook for critical argumentation".

  • In reply to eyelikecheese
    econ's picture

    eyelikecheese:
    Corporations aren't inherently unethical. The evolve into unethical beings just as human beings do, all in the pursuit of "people over profits", which is true, and at any cost.

    Just so I'm clear, who specifically is unethical? A corporation cannot be unethical, only people can be unethical. So, which people are you referring to, when a corporation does business in ways you deem unethical? The board of directors? The executives? The shareholders? The customers?

  • Kenny_Powers_CFA's picture

    I was recently at an alumni event where a couple of people from my school who had gone top banks>top PE firms>top MBA firms>Top PE firms spoke.

    One of the things that was said that stood out to me is that all of speakers mentioned business school colleagues who had started (or helped start) companies and were now extremely "successful" both in terms of wealth and of lifestyle, etc.

    There have been many great comebacks throughout history. Jesus was dead but then came back as an all-powerful God-Zombie.

  • In reply to econ
    7toaster's picture

    To unlock this content for free, please login / register below.

    Connecting helps us build a vibrant community. We'll never share your info without your permission. Sign up with email or if you are already a member, login here Bonus: Also get 6 free financial modeling lessons for free ($200+ value) when you register!

Pages