5 Rules of Getting a Job from a Non-Target School
I’ve been in the industry for several years and I’ve come across every type of situation. I’ve met guys from top schools who work in bulge bracket firms, but I’ve also met people from those same schools who can’t seem to land a great job. Conversely, I’ve met guys from non-target schools who managed to get into a top firm.
Simply stated, I do recommend you attend the best school you can get into. Being the underdog is no fun and even if you “break in” it will take longer to get where you want to go. As well, there are many employers you’ll meet along the way that are very rigid about the “rules”. So even if you get in, it may still be harder to get promoted or find a better job later on. Therefore, the best solution is to attend the best school. This leads me to the first rule:
Jordan was the best basketball player of his era. Charles Barkley was arguably #2. On any given night, Barkley might outscore Jordan. However, NO ONE would ever remember Charles Barkley as the best player of his era. The same rule applies for b-schools. There are many schools that rank “top 20” and claim they are almost as good as the top b-schools in the country. However, they are the Charles Barkley of b-schools. Even if they are that good… they’ll never get you the same amount of respect in the job market.
The next set of rules are suitable for people who don’t end up going to target schools:
In similar fashion, if your goal is to do M&A in a bulge bracket firm, you should get a job doing M&A at a boutique or an accounting firm. The same rule applies for lending: a commercial banker will eventually be able to land a corporate lending job. It takes 2-3 years of experience and a bit of patients but you will eventually get in. Also, remember that your time spent doing mid-market IB/FX/lending will not necessarily count as work experience in the big leagues.
Time is on your side. If you are 22 years old and are trying to get into IB, you have 43 years until you reach retirement age (i.e. 65). Even if you end up working in a tier 2 firm from 22 to 25 and then go for an MBA from 25 to 27, you could still end up joining the industry at 28 years old. That still leaves 37 years until retirement! Most successful bankers are considered “old veterans” after 20 years of experience…. With 37 years to go you have nothing to worry about!
I wish I had read this 2-3years ago, so I didnt have to figure it out through trial & error.
This should be required reading for any non-target very early on.
Hey thanks for this article! It was a great read. The part about the top 20 business schools was especially insightful!
Generally, on target and correct. Good write-up.
It's really all about odds.
Go to a top school? dramatically increases your odds. Cold call good contacts? increases your odds a bit.
Simply put: You want to spend your time doing the things that yield the best increases.
grapefury - good analysis
Rule #6 - never talk about Fight Club
Stockton was #2 bro
Fantastic article! Banana awarded! I wish there was more help for people from Non-Target Universities!
Barkley was not even close to the second best player of Jordan's era. Magic, Bird, Malone, Olajuwon, Ewing were all better and thats just off the top of my head.
Indeed
Magic and Bird were reaching the tail-end of their careers as Jordan was hitting his peak; their eras overlapped, but I would say they were distinct (I think Magic/Bird were drafted 5 or 6 years before Jordan).
I'd say the 2nd-best player of Jordan's era was Olajuwon, but Malone, Barkley and David Robinson were in the mix (honorable mentions going to Ewing, Isaiah Thomas, maybe even Stockton, Drexler, Pippen, Kevin Johnson).
I do not think Robinson was better then Ewing. He had a better tail-end to his career when he played second-fiddle to Duncan, but during the Jordan-era I think Ewing's outside game was way superior to Robinsons and therefore he was the better player overall. Ewing also had no supporting cast at all. I agree that Olajuwon was better then both of them.
I like this rule a lot. Letters next to your name are always a good thing.
Really ground-breaking OP...
So basically work hard, choose a field that you can see yourself having a career in, and do things that will improve chances at getting your dream job? Seems like common sense to me.
If it was common sense 75-80% of the posts on here wouldn't exist.
Jordan went to a semi-target, and that's a stretch.
Jimmer Fredette went to a non target.
Waiting for Brady to praise rule #1
I think I know who you're referring to. Did he intern at Barclays?
I think I know who you're referring to. Did he intern at Barclays?
whatever yo, if MJ's Stanford, the next best player is a Ball State communications major
I'll have to second Hakeem as a second to Jordan. We know how he fared against Barkley.
no he did not intern at barclays.
Good words.
how is everyone forget about Yinka Dare?
Haha how did this turn into a basketball hall of fame forum? Nonetheless, coming from a non-target, I definitely appreciate OP putting up this article. When I first joined WSO I was legitimately depressed because it seemed like my odds of having a solid career in finance were slim to none, all because I did not attend the top tier schools or held senior exec contacts. Articles like this give me hope and structure my approach without giving me unrealistic ideas of walking into GS without any credibility. Common sense maybe but when you get this tunnel-visioned into a highly competitive field you tend to forget the basics that are right in front of you.
Im impressed that all the little kiddies on this site know who those players are
Really intriguing!
Do you think going to a good MBA means that you can "rebrand" yourself with the better tag?
Not disagreeing with the general ideas in your post, but this Jordan/Barkley - school analogy is terrible.
Sure, SEC schools may place a lot of players in the NBA, but people will remember Jordan as the best because he did what he wanted every night on the basketball court. The fact that he owned Barkley on the regular had nothing to do with the fact that Barkley attended Auburn, nor did Jordan's success in the league have to do with the fact he attended NC (note: I'm not discounting the benefit of good coaching.)
While as an investment banker, you may be remembered solely for the fact that you attended Harvard, in both leagues you're better off averaging 50 ppg for your career if you want to cement your legacy.
Still, better to attend Harvard if possible.
very well put
From a non-target kid: Which is why I am preparing myself for H/S/W MBA now
Great read thank you!
I Got a FT JOB: Non-target to S&T (Originally Posted: 02/21/2015)
I've been debating for a bit of time whether to post my story or not, and figured it would be best to do so to help motivate some others in a current situation.
Let me start off with some background. I go to a non-target school with a sub 3.0 GPA. I'm not the one to make excuses and fully blame my shitty GPA on a weak freshman year. I had around a 2.0 and slowly worked my tail off to raise my GPA. I have about a 2.9 overall and 3.5+ major GPA (which is the one I obviously posted on my resume)
I had some previous internships at a global macro hedge fund, financial communications firm, equity research shop, and a 10 week Summer Analyst role at a European Investment Bank (BNP, UBS, Soc Gen, Barclays, Credit Agricole)
I got my first internship through a teacher at my school and leveraged each previous internship to get the next one! RELATIONSHIPS ARE KEY!! Never burn a bridge in this industry. Even if you're quitting a job/internship I would highly suggest doing it in a way where your relationships built throughout that employment aren't lost.
I spent my freshman summer at a multi-billion $ global macro fund through my finance teachers connections. I rotated throughout Trading, Marketing, and Operations. My sophomore summer, I had a very tough time landing an internship. Not only did I go to an average school, but I had shitty grades on top of that. I was finally able to push my way into a small financial communications firm and worked my ass off. I hated this job more than anything, but was regularly on the phone with BB research analysts and this helped me with my communication and phone skills. I leveraged this internship into getting an equity research role during the fall semester of my junior year. I spent my time there analyzing and modeling various Financial Services firms.
I THEN MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE MADE A MISTAKE (depends how you interpret it). I had 3 options: 1. Go study abroad (I was accepted, had my paperwork filled out.. I was ready to go! Just needed to book my flight) 2. Stay at the ER firm and continue that gig 3. Move to a large PWM firm (ML, MS, JPM)
I chose option #3. I think this could have been a mistake because I left a great ER shop to go cold call and do various bitch work for an FA. Not only was I doing less demonstrable work, but I was getting paid less as well. The only bright side about moving to PWM was that I got that "big name" on my resume.
I then applied for and completed OCR and landed a job at a European Investment Bank (BNP, UBS, Soc Gen, Barclays, Credit Agricole). I was placed in their Middle Office Operations. Now, this wasn't as bad as you may think. This was a proper 10 week summer analyst program and I got some excellent training. On top of training, I saw what all the fuss about office politics was, and I saw the customs, culture, and language of a large global investment bank. I wound up getting a FT offer in September 2014 and politely declined due to my goal in securing a Front Office role.
I was then in panic mode.....I was entering senior year and had no job lined up. I had some decent experience, but still went to a non-target and still had shitty grades. This is when I then went into BEAST MODE. I abused Linkedin, my school's career services, Glassdoor, WSO, and just about anything I could get my hands on to help best prepare me for interviews.
Eventually, after a million and a half applications, networking events, and interviews, I was able to land the job I've been dreaming about! I officially received an offer to join a Canadian Investment Bank's sales & trading analyst program (BMO, RBC, CIBC, TD)
SUGGESTIONS:
Everyone in undergrad needs to take advantage and properly utilize LinkedIn. Use it to hit up alumni (most of them are always willing to help since they were once in your shoes) & apply to jobs (most of you forget that there's a ton of job posting solely on LinkedIn- this is how I got my ER job!!!)
Send out cold emails! If you apply for an IBD position at GS for example, then look on LinkedIn and see who the campus recruiter at GS is for IBD. Then you can guess there email based off of their name. [email protected] Send over your resume and a SHORT intro email about yourself just looking to set up a phone call. Never ask for a job! By asking for a phone call, it gives you a chance to build your relationship with the recruiter and they will most likely look out for your resume when the time comes.
Speak with teachers. Most of your finance/econ teachers are former industry experts! Everyone knows everyone on Wall Street so see if they can connect you with anyone.
Sorry if this is a long rant, but just wanted to get everything out there! Best of luck.
Please, feel free to shoot me any questions you have and I'll do my best to answer each and every one of them!
Congrats! Time to change your username haha
Congratulations and good luck!!!
congratulations!
If anyone else has questions - just comment on here or private message! I'll try and get back to you ASAP.
"I abused LinkedIn". Love the hustle, congrats.
many congrats dude, a great example of hustle and hard work paying off.. appreciate the tips as well, Shot you a PM!
Thank you for your tips so much. You're right, Linkedin is indeed important. Whenever I applied for some internships, someone anonymous would definitely view my profiles on Linkedin in the following days. But I still don't know how to hit the point or attract them.
I am in a similar situation and it's always enlightening to hear others progress. Stories like these definitely motivate me and encourage me. Congrats!
I am in a similar situation and it's always enlightening to hear others progress. Stories like these definitely motivate me and encourage me. Congrats!
I am in a similar situation and it's always enlightening to hear others progress. Stories like these definitely motivate me and encourage me. Congrats!
nice post, congrats
Stand Out as a Non-Target: On The Job (Part 3 of 4) (Originally Posted: 07/10/2013)
In Part 1 we covered recruiting, in Part 2 we covered the interview and now the next item is job performance which will be more qualitative than quantitative. Notably, you can apply these steps to a Target entrance as well, however for a Non-Target following the blueprint will be of utmost importance.
You’ve gotten the job offer and you’ve spent the last six months drowning yourself in booze. AMF’s, Tequilla Shots, Jägerbombs, Irish Car bombs, Jungle Juice and screaming in bars “BOGO!” (Black Out or Get Out) every Thursday night… Then reality sets in as you head off to training and unfortunately the stigma of being a Non-Target will continue. The good news? Below is your guide to standing out, not getting fired and diluting the importance of your alma matter.
1. Training. When you begin on the Street you’ll be sent off for a training session at your firm’s head quarters (usually NYC). Here you will have to pass a series of tests, take accounting courses, Training the Street modeling courses and the classic excel formatting classes. When you begin training there will be two sets of groups 1) the extreme go getters, 2) the extreme partiers. Generally, you don’t want to be a part of either of these groups, instead you want to strike a balance in-between with a slight lean towards being an above average go-getter.
Why do you want to do this? Here is the reasoning below:
Your training results matter. Your scores on all of the accounting tests, Training the Street material etc. will all be passed along to Senior Members of your group. What this means is when you return from training they will already have a perception of how good you are. If you come back from training and you had the lowest scores in the entire group and the company needs to lay off workers… You’re gone. So as a Non-Target given that they already had slightly lower expectations of you, don’t be at the bottom of the pack shoot for being in the 75-80% range (top quartile)
This leads to point two – the most important job advice you will ever get before joining - because you’re likely wondering why don’t I simply get ranked #1 in everything?
“Never unnecessarily raise expectations, lower expectations, deliver higher results”
Now that you know your MD’s will have the results of all the tests you also do not want to be the Rock-star analyst/associate. The reason why is you’ll enter on day one and you’ll immediately get staffed and grinded. You’ve unnecessarily raised expectations too high. You want to leave some room for error so your MD/, Director/VP all see improvements from their criticism of you. This does many things for you 1) you have now set a bar that can easily be beat, 2) your bosses will now believe you take criticism well and are able to improve and 3) this lowers your hours slightly out of the gate. If you are getting ranked on the all time list for speed in the excel formatting exercises… You’ve gone too far.
2. Political Management. Now that you’ve entered your first Wall Street gig with your light blue t-shirt and oversized suit, it’s time to start taking notes regarding the hierarchy within the office. Being from a non-target you want to do everything possible to link up with the highest ranked MD. All MD’s are not created equal. Instead of explaining in a long-winded fashion how you can flush out the bad MD’s from the good ones here’s your step by step guide.
(Replace Analyst with Associate being promoted to VP if you are a first year a1 Associate)
The four steps above will quickly give you an idea of how you get promoted because you will have a direct line of sight to success. Find out who he works for, these people were the ones who made sure he got the promotion and of course they are also ones who will help you get promoted in the future if they like you as well. If it isn’t broke don’t fix it so follow the path of successful people before you.
With the politics and general perception out of the way all that is left is correctly performing on the job. At this point people in the office should have the following impression of you 1) Hard working, 2) Not the star in the office but above average (both in work ethic and intelligence from you top quartile scores) and 3) easy to work with due to social skills. From your perspective at this point you should have a direct line of sight on who you want to work for and who you do not want to work for. This will also help you decide which projects you will prioritize during the 120+ hour work weeks.
3. Work Performance. Now that you’ve set the stage it is all about work performance. Here’s your bulleted list on how to impress your higher ups.
TL;DR. When you join the Street 1) Stay within the top quintile but avoid being the Star from the get go, 2) Lower expectations if possible, but out perform, 3) find the important people within the firm and 4) Prioritize appropriately, do not make the same mistake consistently and avoid asking questions you can answer yourself.
Will do.
Thanks for sharing! Golden advice!
awesome post! It's unfortunate they don't teach these kind of topics in business school.
This point is non-intuitive but generally holds true.
Tbh I have found once on the job standing out as a non target is the same as standing out. I would also say that being from a non target actually gives you a leg up with impressions because people think "that kid must have done something to get here" after hearing where you have gone to school.
Agree
Correct that's why we stated in the second sentence that it can be applied to target students as well.
" Notably, you can apply these steps to a Target entrance as well, however for a Non-Target following the blueprint will be of utmost importance."
Push comes to shove if there are layoffs and you are equal with a target student right after training you're more likely than not gone. Hence why you should stay in that 75% (top quartile range) from the get go.
(Note layoffs after training are rare, barring a recession, unless you can't even pass the training classes in which case you deserve to be let go)
extremely useful and practical series, thanks wsplayboys
Finally some good advice from someone actually working in the industry.
This rhetoric is interesting/hilarious. Here's some advice: Do your fucking job. Don't be a douchebag and don't act " try hard." Just be a normal , sociable person who works hard and smart. If they don't like you, fuck them. Sell side is dogshit anyway.
Wish someone had told me this when I first started out.
Yes, this attitude will take you places (so glad we'll be competing for the same jobs).
"“Never unnecessarily raise expectations, lower expectations, deliver higher results”
Been there, done that. But if you're doing it, make sure your director doesn't figure out your plan, get mad, and call you on it.
On another note, I tend to tell the ladies that I'm "mediocre at best."
Good post, bookmarked it for future use
Great overall advice. However, dont quite get the expectations thing.
How exactly do you lower expectations coming in? Reason why you've made it as a non-target is bcuz you had a little something extra.....and doesnt it look actually worse if you say "uhmm...sure...let me see if I know how to balance that model....never done it before" rather than "will do"....and getting it done?
And even if you do manage the lower-expectations-outperformance one time, you probably cannot keep pulling that crap over and over again right? Those mofo's are too smart for that shit....you go above and beyond one task and they come to expect it in every single task they give you from that point on....NO? Maybe i'm just confused
Any real life example / elaboration would be great
Non-Target Lands IB SA -- A Different Kind of Success Story (Originally Posted: 03/10/2014)
Hey guys,
Sometimes a poster but posting under an anonymous account to preserve identity. After months of preparation, a bit of hardship, and a lot of luck, I am happy to say that I was offered and accepted an IB SA position in NYC with a very good bank. I will focus on my background and what I did to make this happen.
To start, I should not even be here in the first place. I was a piece of shit teenager -- found myself in the wrong crowds. As a result, bounced around from high school to high school, took various substances, ruined my family/friend relationships, and nearly destroyed my life (read -- no arrests). By the grace of God, I have a great family that enrolled me in an in-patient program that, over the course of a better half of a year, turned my life around. I sobered up and went to AA/NA meetings, directly stopped the suicide of a friend, and ended up integrating fine into my old environment.
I did not really study hard for the SAT and my transcript probably did not look as nice as the normal WSO user. Because of this, I ended up at one of the textbook schools on the non-target scale for banking schools (private school in the upper northeast). This means that there were maybe 1 or 2 i-bankers (BB/EB/boutique) who had graduated in the last 30 years.
In freshman year, I got involved in several community service organizations (finance and not), and started reading the WSJ/Economist/FT. I was also able to land a BO internship at a financial services company the summer btwn my fresh-soph year by filling out an online application with no networking. My GPA through freshman year was 3.3.
In sophomore year, I pretty much continued on the same path. I worked really hard and pulled my GPA up to a 3.5+, in addition to staying very involved in athletics/community service. When summer came up, I thought I was hot shit and nothing could stop me. I tried applying for BB IB SA positions in March (ha, ha). Needless to say, I did not even know what WallStreetOasis was then. Also needless to say, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, and the like did not even know who I was then until I received the automated May email: "Sorry, our programs have been filled. Thanks for applying, dipshit."
Come June, I still did not have an internship. I ended up harassing a recruiter at a data services company until he gave me an internship in late June. I got this by applying online, no networking, just calling a recruiter's number literally every other day to see if he had news. Persistence or stalking...? Who knows.
Come junior year, I was more realistic. I studied the hell out of WSO and the technical guides. I snuck into recruiting events at target schools. I gave up my Thurs/Fri nights so I could ace my tests because I was on the phone with people from NYC to SF to Singapore -- even if they were back office -- in case anyone of those people knew someone who could help. I cold-emailed more people than I can count and kept a database (many of these threads out there on advice to do this).
As a result, I landed an interview with a top BB firm in December. I thought there was no stopping me, that I was invincible. Come December, I was wrong. I got my shit handed to me by an analyst in one of the top groups of the top banks on Wall St. I knew it was a ding the second the call ended. I was crushed.
I didn't get any bites until a couple months later, right when I was about to give up and pursue corp fin. One of my cold networking contacts reached out and batted for me in the recruiting process. This was my last chance, either this opportunity or no chance on Wall Street until an MBA down the line, the pressure was on.
I did well at the super day (beat out a lot of kids from really good schools) and got the offer.
Wow. What a journey. As of this writing, I am close to a major sobriety date and inching closer to the start of working with a great company. I am not your typical prep school-Ivy league-BB guy. I am a kid who worked his ass off and put himself in a good place to get hit by the luck truck. I hate the cliche, but if I can do it, you probably can too. Some parting advice:
a.) Know the line between confidence and cockiness. It is a tough feeling when you spent that last hour fantasizing about the offer when you royally fucked up in an interview. b.) Always be thankful for what you have. Even if you don't get an IB offer, luck will come your way. By just reading this site, it shows you are highly motivated, intelligent, realistic, and hard-working. Many college-aged kids are NOT this. c.) Believe in yourself. So what if everyone in the group is from "target schools". Who gives a shit. They worked really hard in high school and really hard in college. That doesn't make them the second coming of J.P. Morgan. Instead, think you are the second coming of Sidney Weinberg (read -- #StartedFromTheBottom). Work in the trenches and eventually you'll emerge victorious. d.) There is never enough networking. Never enough networking. Never. Don't be afraid to ask off the top about internships either. These guys know what you are asking for.
Congratulations man! It's definitely the best felling ever to have a happy ending to that hustle.
Congratz man!
Congratulations! I'm glad to hear about someone from a non cookie cutter background that succeeded!
Role model! I'm from non-target too
Most intriguing success story I've read, good shit man
Check your PM's
Congrats! This kind of success is the best high in the world.
How did you deal with the stress of being initially dinged at the BB and having to start another search?
Non-target using Target's Jobs Portal (Originally Posted: 04/05/2011)
Hi, I was wondering if my friends would get in trouble if I dropped my resume for internships/jobs on their career listings. Do you think recruiters care enough to contact the school and report them? Should I stick to just pulling email/fax info? My resume is on par or better than most of these target kids' if that's worth anything.
My friend has done it before. I'm from NYU and my friend is from poly. For us,they (recruiters) probably only care about the quality of the person, besides, NYU merged with poly so it was probably not a big deal for them. As of this year, poly gets access to our career site as well. But I personally don't think it's with it especially since you guys are from completely different schools. You might get in trouble and you might get your friend in trouble.
btw if it's worth anything, my friend also applied through their website. He heard back more from their website than through our career website.
They will be looking through a list of resumes from your friends school. It will be obvious when they get a resume with a different school listed on it. You will definitely stand out but maybe not in a good way...
Might be better off networking rather than trying to sneak in like that. It doesn't look good on either you or your friend.
Probably wouldn't do this-they'd think it's a mistake or a joke or something. Without you being there to explain it, it probably wouldn't work.
Sneaking into target schools' career/internship fair is a 1000x better idea and works like a champ. Completely recommend it.
Yup very simple. Employee reps at career fairs talk to 100+ people and remember nobody-walking up, shaking their hand, and saying you're from some random fucking non-target immediately grabs their attention. Not everyone will be completely helpful to your cause, but if you grab their card and follow up for coffee, they will at least 100% remember you and usually in a good way. Don't think that since they're recruiting at their alma mater that they won't help you out-many people are impressed by this.
I would say sneaking into these is literally the best and most time-effective way to network from a non-target. Just learn the security before-I've been kicked out of one. This makes for good stories though.
makers, do a decent number of hedge funds and private equity shops show up undergraduate career fairs at targets?
My friend just got a job at a HF by dropping his resume at another school's career site. What do you have to lose?
I'm from a non-target and I have had luck landing many interviews using other school's online career portals in the last couple months.
In my experience the recruiters responses vary. Some of them are not too fond of this tactic and have responded very coldly to me but others have been impressed by my tenacity.
yeah sounds good I just don't wanna get my friends into trouble. although idk who's gonna make the effort to rat some kid out for that.
Not sure what to do. Non-target=No Job? (Originally Posted: 06/23/2012)
Well I have never posted on here, I have only observed many of the conversations that go on. I have seen some decent success stories on here but none that I feel I can directly relate to. I just recently graduated from a NON-target school in the midwest and am struggling to even get response e-mails from applications. The issue I am having is that no one knows where the hell I went to school other than the very very small shops in the area. Those very small shops are all filled up and have very little turnover. I am friends with a lot of the local CFA charterholders and they say I have to leave to get experience but it just isn't that easy. So my qualifications... Bachelors in Finance and Economics two internships: one at a big time wealth management shop ( think Merrill Lynch or UBS) and another as an analyst for a smaller bank that is preparing to launch an alternative ETF. I competed in the CFA Institute Research Challenge and won the local competition. Also I just sat for Level 1 of the CFA. I have had one interview with a small shop and was not offered. I am at a loss of what to do because big shops probably laugh at where I went to school and there is no chance anywhere local. I want to get into portfolio management but I don't know what to do.
Any thoughts? Thanks in Advance.
Have you tried networking at all? Just from your post it seems like you havent or haven't nearly enough. I don't mean to sound like a dick, but I truly don't understand when people come on this website and post stuff like this. If you haven't networked day in and day out for at least 6-12 months, you haven't tried and you do not want it bad enough.
Just my thoughts
Yeah I guess I should elaborate more. I have done quite a bit in my local area and in the Chicago area through the CFA society. But still no one wants to give a non target a shot. I know it sounds like a broken record, but I have been busting my balls e-mailing and cold calling people in the chicago area and some outside of there. Going outside of the midwest is a joke for me. I have actually had some people laugh at me on the east when I tried to tell them about my school. What are your thoughts on networking outside the area when you have absolutely no one in the business from your school?
You may have to do an MSF at a name brand school. Normally, I'd say focus on alumni networking and network with people on LinkedIn etc. Problem is in your case a lack of heavy representation.
You might try the MSF. An MSF coupled with a CFA may help a lot more.
First thing you need to get out of your head is that your school matters. It does not. Not in the least bit.
That's what it really means to be a non-target. When people see your resume and see a school that isn't a "target," they immediately don't care what the school is. They just check to make sure you have a good GPA before deciding whether or not to read the rest of your resume.
That works two ways, as per my experience: first, it makes you suck at online applications, as no HR system will ever pick your resume out of any list of applicants. Second, it lets people know that you're more hungry than anyone else about getting the job. After all, you went through the trouble of making sure a real set of eyes got to your resume and not a computer/HR guy (interchangeable).
It's quite obvious that you haven't done enough networking, and the reason for this is that you're afraid of or unwilling to head out to the east coast (or west, if you've thought of that).
Allow me to be the first to say that if you don't spend the time on-site and within close proximity to the people you want to connect with, you will not find a job. Take the plunge. Finance a 2-3 month stay in NYC. Find a hostel and set up camp there if you don't have friends in the city; the limited privacy will motivate you to work harder.
I know people who have done exactly that before. It's not hard and has a high rate of success. The least you should be doing if you want to work on the Street is flying or taking a bus to and from the city every week or every other week to hit networking events and do informational interviews.
AND, if you think that's ridiculous, just know that there is an Indian kid who is in danger of overstaying his Visa to find a job while he works his ass off at a hotel overnight in Harlem to get the job he really wants. There's also a Chinese kid whose parents bred him to be an academic monster since he was in the cradle back in China, and now that he's here he's doing whatever it takes to succeed. There's also some kid from Cali who grew up like a spoiled brat because his father is a millionaire, and even though he's an idiot, his father paid for him to go to UCLA or Stanford. All he's gotta do is prove he fits in.
So yeah man, go hard or go home is the moral.
Good inspiration here. Same thing I'm having to do on a minor scale in my city. If you're not networking practically 40 hours a week, you're not really networking. Network harder!!! Find a high-level person in Finance who is willing to at least give you a spreadsheet loaded with his/her contacts (phone/emails) and start cold emailing and calling. Use that person's name in the emails/calls. I am getting positive responses from this!!! Try it!
Yea I agree with FSC. Don't let your school define you. You can definitely at least leverage the wealth management name and the CFA to yourself instead. Focus on what you've done, your abilities and what you're willing to do for an employer than where you're from.
Well I am getting the Go hard or go home message and I appreciate everyone's insight. I have come a long way and I feel like I have a lot going for me but it's not enough so I will hit it hard. The one question I have is what do I do in the meantime? I just graduated and just finished level 1 of the the CFA. What do I do? Internship or just tell anyone I am talking to that I am looking for a job?
C'mon guy. I don't want to sound like a jerk but are you kidding me?! You can tell people whatever you want. Who cares.
And I certainly hope that if you're talking to people, you are mentioning the fact that you'd like a job. You phrased the question as if you might not be. Have no shame. Tell them what you want.
If you have the parental support, I'd try to volunteer at a shop if necessary and try to parlay that into a job.
If you've read this site long enough, you'll know that non-targets CAN AND DO make it on Wall Street. The process may be harder, but it happens. So maybe the traditional networking path isn't working for you. Do something out of the ordinary. Getting into finance today sometimes takes a bit of creativity.
If you want it, go big. Someone above recommended maybe taking a trip to NYC. Convince those you contact as best as you can to sit down with you to chat about your skills, etc. At that point you can explain your school situation and make them forget about the name.
I guarantee you that the more people you network with, the more likely you'll have someone who bites and takes a chance.
I can get to Chicago in less than 3 hours time. I am not really sure which events to go to other than those put on by the CFA Institute and local society. I have done some cold calling and have no problem with it I just need to talk to the right people and I guess I am a newbie when it comes to that. I can finance the rest of this summer easily, but at the end of august I will want to start making some money and I am concerned about the gap on my resume.
Then call all the other places on the list and tell the hiring manager (if that's all you can get) or the CIO or CEO or COO that you will be in town to see X company (the one above), and could you drop by their company too? You are a recent graduate trying to get into the business and are looking for advice.
Then when you get in to see them, get their advice! Give them an elevator pitch about yourself, tell them it is your elevator pitch, and ask what you suggest they do to get into the field. That should lead to a good talk. Be sensitive to their time, but don't leave without asking them if there is anyone they suggest you talk to, at their company or any other.
Then follow up on every single lead, and don't forget to use the name of the person who referred you every time you speak to someone. If it is a portfolio manager, even at a different firm, you will get noticed.
Then do it all over again with the new people. You are now getting networked. Keep it up until you have a job.
If you had any chemistry with any of these people and they started acting really distracted when you were talking, they might have been trying to think of how you might fit in with their company. Don't push it, but call everyone back in a couple weeks and invite them to lunch/coffee/drink to thank them for helping you out.
Hunter - I have to agree with everyone else who says you aren't trying enough. Even though it might seem like you can't possibly try harder (we've all probably felt that way), you should step back, re-evaluate your approach, see what's working/not, and switch gears a bit.
Kill a few hours on LinkedIn and find people whose career path you admire, etc. Shoot a message which expresses your genuine interest and career goals and ask for an informational interview. This has proven to be the most successful method for me by far. Once you're on the phone, LISTEN to them. Hear them out, learn their story, and talk about yourself only when they ask or when you can contribute something to the convo. For every person you speak to, that opens hundreds of potential doors for people they can introduce you to.
The biggest thing I've learned is that your school DOES NOT matter. I went to a top school, and my tuition could have bought me a house, but my education is never brought up in interviews. People want to know about your skills, goals, and what you can do for them with that. From what you wrote, you have a great foundation. You're telling yourself that your edu is the end-all, be-all, and that's mentally digging you into a hole you don't have to be in.
Best of luck!
Thanks for all of the advice! I am already hitting linkedin hard. As for the cold calling and hitting up people in chicago what sort of companies should I screen for. Just a base AUM. I am looking to get into fixed income management but that may be a bit picky at this point. I guess I want to focus my contact and resources early on the ones that are larger and will give me a better return on my time and effort. I am compiling a spreadsheet of all the places I want to talk to tonight. couldn't think of a better Saturday night actually. Thanks everyone for lighting a fire under my ass and making me step back and take a look at what I am doing right and wrong. Keep the advice coming because everyones comment has added something to my notes to work on.
This post really rubbed me the wrong way. So much so that I went through the effort of resetting my password in order to log in to type the following message. And as a disclaimer, I mean the forthcoming advice in the nicest way possible...
Sack up. No wonder you don't have a job. Learn to sell yourself. Sell your experiences. Sell your skills. Sell your shitty little school that no one knows about. Tell employers why they should give a chance, why you're better than Joe Blow. Stop looking for reasons why you can't get a job. Maybe you'll need to leave your small town but if so, so be it. In an over saturated labor market, employers in a shrinking industry aren't exactly going to come kicking down your door to hire you.
I didn't come from a target school. I had an awful GPA. But I decided I wanted to work in banking and nothing was stopping me. I took a shitty paying, temporary contract, working in the BO for JPM. The work sucked but I did well and made a name for myself. When they needed to fill a permanent vacancy, they approached me. I'm still doing less than ideal work in the BO but was quickly promoted to AVP and I'm getting great exposure. After my next review, I plan to transition into equity research with my boss' endoresment. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, I'm just saying...make it happen dude. There are a million ways to make it work. Find one.
"you miss 100% of the shot you don't take" Wayne Gretzky
You sound like you need to go get a Masters in Finance and start networking. Make sure to take the Masters from a target school, and in the city you want to work if possible.
As been said, I would suggest a MSF in a good university for rebrand yourself.
Yea, it sucks as a non-target. been there done that. I remember when I applied to the IB Freshman/Sophomore internships with a 3.92 and an internship at a $1B+ PE shop already under my belt. Didn't even get a single interview...
You gotta have balls if you want these positions. Go get it.
Also - Join every relevant group on LinkedIn. Do not underestimate this.
A big plus of this is that if you can message anyone who you are in the same group with regardless if you have a connection with them or not. I've had CEO's of multi-hundred million dollar companies message me back. Lots of these guys are nice and willing to talk - you just gotta get through their screeners and this works as many manage their own LinkedIn accounts.
Best of luck.
Realistic Jobs to Apply for Coming from Non-Target? (Originally Posted: 02/17/2015)
Deleted, thanks.
Edit: Unable* to land a prestigious job
Edit: Unable* to land a prestigious job
northwestern mutual, edward jones
sigh...
look for PWM roles.. It gives you a decent name on a resume (MS, JPM, Credit Suisse, ML)
Keep browsing the threads. There are many that have come on WSO and gotten good feedback and direction with the same issue that you have. Just don't settle for a "prestigious firm". If every kid in their 20's with a finance degree could break into Wall Street and get six figures their first year working for a top tier firm, there wouldn't be other jobs out there. Look at regional banks, boutique firms, and get some plan b situations worked out. If you absolutely have to have a job, the Ed Jones, Northwestern Mutual might work, but I would rather push hard to find a position in corp finance or Big 4 roles. The lie that kids can hop out of undergrad at a non-target and make 100k on Wall Street is as likely as some kid on your high school football team making it to the NFL. Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's better to cover your bases than to only be willing to accept a Wall Street gig.
Non-Targets getting jobs at salary paying prop. shops (Originally Posted: 04/09/2009)
I hear that some of the better firms in the industry (DRW/Susquehanna/First New York/Trillium) actively go to non-targets looking for people.
How common is it for non-targets to get into the better prop. shops that pay salaries??
Sit odio aut earum est. Sed et accusamus ab ea est perferendis nulla. Explicabo aut blanditiis voluptatibus est sint quidem. Quasi laudantium porro qui et officiis odit eius. Consequatur exercitationem et odio accusamus. Eveniet dignissimos velit tempora autem non sint. Eos maiores officiis voluptatem.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Laborum voluptate saepe nobis fugit vel. Soluta aut sit accusantium laudantium eligendi dolores enim. Dolorem veritatis inventore impedit modi. Iusto saepe et corrupti quia itaque quaerat. Nobis unde et dolor enim. Et qui qui a exercitationem sed sunt. Incidunt reprehenderit recusandae repellendus provident et quod qui.
In id accusamus maiores omnis velit ipsum voluptatibus quia. Saepe corporis nihil aspernatur odio cum quidem. Et eos aut consectetur omnis vel. Nam sunt suscipit hic. Doloremque dolor ex eligendi et at et. Quae impedit aut qui qui incidunt ipsa.
Nesciunt laborum voluptate ea cupiditate officia odio. Aut dicta sed reiciendis iure placeat. Id quaerat sequi nobis magni molestiae magnam hic. Maiores velit animi labore expedita est fugit. Et ut tempore accusantium ea qui. Distinctio voluptas dignissimos temporibus enim velit. Ea error cumque consequuntur numquam.
Odio ex harum animi nisi autem. Ab non minus nobis eius veniam maiores eos iure. Sequi rerum iste fugiat et aperiam et. Molestias quam eaque sint vel iure voluptatibus sint.
Pariatur laudantium dolor sit nihil itaque excepturi quia. Mollitia quo repellendus nostrum et praesentium.
Labore quia officia pariatur. Sit expedita debitis rerum. Repellat quod numquam adipisci earum expedita enim debitis. Autem doloribus ipsa incidunt eum autem.
Mollitia mollitia at debitis deleniti labore dolor. Totam officia qui id alias temporibus et porro. Sit non et dolorem est fuga nam. Veniam qui quia ipsum quibusdam optio dicta. Minus modi aut repellendus. Earum dolores tenetur velit corrupti.
Sint fugiat quae velit repellat enim excepturi. Incidunt sapiente rerum ea fugiat quam sint quo.
Aut nesciunt ratione libero voluptas voluptatum atque. Laudantium eveniet rerum natus voluptates. Id voluptatem possimus voluptatum facilis ullam laborum. Est vero tempora aut repudiandae laboriosam voluptatem.
Ipsam voluptatibus cumque ad assumenda provident provident non voluptate. Quaerat magnam harum quos assumenda. Quo incidunt nisi sed. Quisquam quidem omnis eos. Mollitia aut occaecati consequuntur illo quos est.
Consequuntur commodi labore cupiditate dicta ducimus et omnis. Accusamus ut provident vero iusto. Eum error aut voluptatem fugit est. Ut ullam est qui nesciunt minus.
Quis ullam temporibus atque voluptatem inventore accusamus. Quibusdam sint molestiae blanditiis corrupti laborum aut. Totam maiores enim omnis aspernatur alias blanditiis aut.
Et ad voluptas odio iure libero architecto rerum. Quisquam quia corporis repudiandae. Vitae facere incidunt nostrum in perferendis consequatur. Expedita molestias nostrum qui eligendi a. Alias vitae quis consequuntur quis ut iusto. Error molestiae delectus occaecati dolorum.
Corporis delectus quasi voluptatem et in. Est itaque commodi et a consequatur. Accusantium qui ut ratione autem quibusdam error dicta molestiae. Dolore veniam quod occaecati soluta eaque tenetur numquam.
Voluptatem officiis libero qui aspernatur provident excepturi. Sint harum facilis eaque ea quos excepturi. Culpa nobis facere aut sint dolore soluta ut.
Quod autem autem ut consequatur. Aspernatur numquam et totam doloremque eos ea amet. Ut facilis perferendis veniam aperiam repellat at.
Quia maiores et earum vitae unde numquam doloribus. Voluptatem reiciendis dolorum incidunt culpa fugit. Repellat quam sed id odit velit. Dolorem velit tempora et dolorem minus eum modi.
Aliquid molestiae a occaecati iusto itaque. Veniam debitis aut totam blanditiis.
Ab facilis doloribus sed est explicabo ipsa rerum. Officiis soluta animi eos voluptatibus beatae sunt itaque. Sit sequi reiciendis velit ab. In repudiandae blanditiis vel quasi porro voluptatum deserunt error. Architecto tempora quisquam vitae quas ut aliquam quisquam. Voluptates dolor rerum sapiente nihil facilis.