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Mod (Andy) note: elected by you - the monkeys of WSO, this is the 2011 Finance-forum post of the year (from Jan 28, 2011). I'm reposting it here on the homepage for any monkeys who have yet to see it. Thanks Marcus_Halberstram for a great post!

Since it is recruiting season, Im posting a multi-part series on how the whole process works to help the prospective monkeys better navigate the process, hopefully with a higher degree of success.

Lets start with the first time a bank sees resumes.

HR takes each target school and sets up resume drops. Each of those schools are then assigned a basket of analysts and associates to review resumes, decide who gets an interview and to conduct first round interviews.

I recently got 75 resumes from a target school of which, at most, 20 will get interviews. Of those 20, 8-12 will get superdays. Of those 8-12, 3-5 will get internship offers, of those 3-5, 1-3 will get full time offers. So of the 75 resumes, 1-3 will actually get a FT offer. To give yourself the best shot, it helps to know the way the process works and how a resume turns into an interview. Obviously those are approximations.

Part 1:
Resume Selection
A team of 6 of us (4 associates, 2 analysts) receives an interview pack of cover letters and resumes neatly indexed and sorted in alphabetical orders. From the 70-80 resumes, we're to come up with a list of 20-30 interview candidates. 20 we'd like to interview and 10 back-up and to rank the 10 back-ups from 1 to 10, so if a slot opens up, the top ranked alternate candidate will get an interview.

These are all Ivy league kids... resumes as low as 3.2 as high as 3.9 with a dual major in some ridiculous combination (think applied mathematics and chemistry). Almost every student was HS valedictorian or something along those lines. I quickly flip through the book circling GPA and majors... and ding any GPA under a 3.4, 3.4 to 3.5 I look at for an extra 4 seconds before before deciding if they have something else to make them well rounded (+2 senior level positions in clubs, varsity athletics, obvious interest in finance). I also immediately kill any resume with a typo. I only look at cover letters very briefly to see catch any obvious typos as a reason to ding. (i.e. cover letters do NOTHING for you). I will note, I saw some shorter cover letters that had numbered bullet points, no more than 3. Why I want to work in banking, why I think Ill excel at Your Firm, etc... I actually skimmed through these, and this format/style is very effective in actually getting read (for better or for worse). And found that the other people in my recruiting team had the same reaction.

I only dinged about 15... still need to ding another 30 to get to the 20+10 back-ups. I go back again, too many asians, too many guys, I narrow the field down a bit more. Ding another 5-10. Still need to cut another 20 resumes. Now I read the resumes a bit closer... finance case competitions, internships, club-involvement, does this resume tell me he/she wants to be a banker? I end up not finishing before our recruiting committee meeting, but I have starred the resumes I like (high GPA 3.7+, some sort of past finance intership, varsity sports, and/or any other uniquely impressive/interesting aspect (e.q. interests: Thai slap boxing).

In the meeting: we like candidates with high GPAs that communicate a strong interest in finance even if they are comparative lit majors with no finance experience, did they do case competitions? Do they list interests in-line with an inclination to banking?

We cut candidates with high GPAs irrespective of major who have no aspect of an interest in banking on their resume. We cut candidates who can't highlight/explain their experience properly/impressively. We cut candidates who don't list interests outside of working/studying. We cut candidates with low GPAs (sub-3.3-ish). We cut candidates who are on the line and could have arranged/presented their resume in a more impactful manner... the thinking being #1- you're probably using one resume for all internship, which means you didn't tailor your resume for this position, which means you dont want this internship enough to warrant spending extra time making your resume as attractive to us as possible; #2- poor judgment call to list your 3 RA stints as independent experiences and place them above your finance case competition runner-up.

Candidates we're lukewarm on, or one person likes and everyone else is indifferent on, we look at like this: we say this person has X, Y and Z that we really like. If we can't get an X, a Y and a Z (i.e. 3 strong, compelling points) we cut them. We don't even read poorly formatted resumes, they are auto-dings. We end up getting to 18 interview candidates and 10 alternates. From time to time I hear a "this format is just horrible, I didn't even want to read it, its a shame though because they were a pretty strong candidate content-wise."

So if you want to give yourself a leg-up in getting an interview:
- it helps but is not a guarantee if you have a high GPA
- you SHOULD absolutely address the question of "is he/she interested in banking?"; if you've never interned in finance and are a non-traditional major, you should be actively involved (pref. at a senior level) in the finance clubs, you should participate in finance/modeling training seminars sponsored by your school, you should have a section under interests with "Readings" or "Favorite Books" that have a finance tinge to them (more When Genius Failed or Fooled by Randomness or Barbarians at the Gate, less Monkey Business or Liars Poker)... Wall Street Journal, DealBook, FT, etc... I wouldn't advise adding that section if the rest of your resume already sells your finance interest... otherwise its overkill and you seem uninteresting and boringly uni-dimensional. You want to be well rounded.
- formatting is EVERYTHING and there is absolutely NO excuse for typos or inconsistencies in formatting
- cover letters, if at all, should be minimalist, the main purpose of a cover letter is to address an obvious shortcoming that is apparent from your resume
- a few other takeaways, if there is an over arching theme in applicants from your school... i.e. asian, indian, male-heavy (more-so than usual), etc... it helps if your last name starts with an A... since by the time we get half way through the pack, if we saw 10 male, indian Economics majors with 3.8 GPAs with heavy finance-oriented club involvement and varsity athletics and you're the 11th, you probably wont get an interview... it was impressive the first one or 2 times, less so the 11th. So some of it is, just the luck of the draw.

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Comments (123)

  • Neil Patrick Harris's picture

    Its really nice to see the interview selection process in depth. Thank you so much!
    I only wish that last takeaway wasn't true.
    I fit that description to the T and my last name starts with an S...

  • chubbybunny's picture

    FML my last name starts with an R.

    I'm going to officially change my last name to one that starts with an A, hopefully this is will get me into GS IBD TMT group.

  • firefighter's picture

    @Marcus: If you ding any candidate below a 3.4, what about candidates who had 3.35 to 3.4 but didn't round? Do you think a 3.35 vs a 3.4 makes a difference?

    Also, for on campus, do you have to target a specific number? e.g. if there are 25 great resumes but only 24 on-campus interview spots for your company, do you add one more spot for that candidate or just drop the weakest of the 25

  • bankingftw's picture

    Please get this on the front page. Required read for all undergrads.

    Thanks!

    "I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine."

  • APAE's picture

    Interesting to read, surprised given my candidacy I made it into the number of superdays I did if all this holds true.

    Most people do things to add days to their life. I do things to add life to my days.

    Browse my blog as a WSO contributing author

  • In reply to APAE
    chubbybunny's picture

    A Posse Ad Esse:
    Interesting to read, surprised given my candidacy I made it into the number of superdays I did if all this holds true.

    It's cuz your black. You're a minority, ever heard of affirmative action?

  • illiniPride's picture

    Thanks for the nuts & bolts perspective

    Leadership can be defined in two words: "Follow Me"

  • In reply to firefighter
    Marcus_Halberstram's picture

    machinegunfunk:
    @Marcus: If you ding any candidate below a 3.4, what about candidates who had 3.35 to 3.4 but didn't round? Do you think a 3.35 vs a 3.4 makes a difference?

    Also, for on campus, do you have to target a specific number? e.g. if there are 25 great resumes but only 24 on-campus interview spots for your company, do you add one more spot for that candidate or just drop the weakest of the 25

    If you put a 3.35 instead of a 3.4 and the person looking at your resume happens to cut-off at 3.4, then you deserve it. I don't know why you wouldnt present yourself in the best light possible. You deserve to be dinged.

    Second, not that its that much of a big deal... but it takes time to widdle the resumes down... and its not worth the headache at that initial weeding stage.

  • accountspayable's picture

    fuck, I'm an asian male with a last name starting with Y. No wonder why I did so poorly for OCR

  • kmzz's picture

    low gpa, good & relevant exp = ding?

  • In reply to kmzz
    Marcus_Halberstram's picture

    kmzz:
    low gpa, good & relevant exp = ding?

    If you can't be a top performer in an environment as soft and forgiving as undergraduate program, why would anyone want to hire you alongside people who were capable of being a top performer in that same environment, regardless of your experience?

  • In reply to chubbybunny
    quag_mire's picture

    chubbybunny:
    A Posse Ad Esse:
    Interesting to read, surprised given my candidacy I made it into the number of superdays I did if all this holds true.

    It's cuz your black. You're a minority, ever heard of affirmative action?

    LOL, either that or you're a chick with a huge rack...was this for IBD or S&T though, cuz the barrier to entry into S&T, from my experience, is MUCH lower...

  • LIBOR's picture

    SB. Of no use to me since I'm a senior at a non-target, but posts like these are really helpful to anyone in such a position.

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  • Option Monkey's picture

    What about FT positions? Is the online application process basically worthless?

  • In reply to Marcus_Halberstram
    txjustin's picture

    Marcus_Halberstram:
    kmzz:
    low gpa, good & relevant exp = ding?

    If you can't be a top performer in an environment as soft and forgiving as undergraduate program, why would anyone want to hire you alongside people who were capable of being a top performer in that same environment, regardless of your experience?

    I appreciate your analysis in the original post. I may not agree with such weeding out tactics, but I'm not on the hiring end. A lot more to a person than their gpa, which is where networking comes in.

  • financialnewbie's picture

    I had a 3.40 last semester. Now I have a 3.32. I am even more tempted to keep the 3.40 on my resume now....

    I am 900% sure that my GPA will be above a 3.4 this semester. This sucks.

  • wolverine19x89's picture

    So if all of these apps are ivy league kids, who picks the non-ivy kids? Do they just split up different types of schools between different screeners?

    Good read though, nice to hear the full process from the perspective of the screener.

    If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

    "There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

  • In reply to Marcus_Halberstram
    firefighter's picture

    Marcus_Halberstram:
    machinegunfunk:
    @Marcus: If you ding any candidate below a 3.4, what about candidates who had 3.35 to 3.4 but didn't round? Do you think a 3.35 vs a 3.4 makes a difference?

    Also, for on campus, do you have to target a specific number? e.g. if there are 25 great resumes but only 24 on-campus interview spots for your company, do you add one more spot for that candidate or just drop the weakest of the 25

    If you put a 3.35 instead of a 3.4 and the person looking at your resume happens to cut-off at 3.4, then you deserve it. I don't know why you wouldnt present yourself in the best light possible. You deserve to be dinged.

    Second, not that its that much of a big deal... but it takes time to widdle the resumes down... and its not worth the headache at that initial weeding stage.

    Marcus -- what if your school doesn't allow for rounding (I know Wharton and some others don't) and everyone had 2 decimal places, and you had a 3.35 vs. a 3.4. Is a 3.35 still an autoding?

  • Marcus_Halberstram's picture

    These cutoffs are largely arbitrary and relative. I graduated with about a 3.6 GPA while working full-time. I had a 3.4 until my senior year of college, so I typically consider 3.5 the soft cutoff and usually scan through a 3.4 to see if I can find an excuse for the lower GPA... if not, its a ding.

    If your school doesn't allow rounding... then thats just the way the world works. Not much you can do about that. A 3.38 3.40 BTW.

    Lastly, you're right there is more to a candidate than a GPA... but if a jr. banker is trying to narrow 80 resumes to 20, and thats the quickest screening criteria, then thats what you have to live with. The whole purpose for me sharing all this info is so you do realize that "ok, I have a 3.2 from a non-target, I can't go the traditional route, I need to try something different, network etc..." or "I have good grades from a target, but thats not enough, I need to really communicate that what I'm really after is a career in banking" etc...

  • firefighter's picture

    If a 3.38a 3.40, does that means you'll take a look at a 3.37-3.40 as well, or are those autodings too?

    Also what do you do if a candidate has a low GPA like a 3.2, but prior M&A investment banking experience and substantial leadership?

  • In reply to firefighter
    Marcus_Halberstram's picture

    machinegunfunk:
    If a 3.38a 3.40, does that means you'll take a look at a 3.37-3.40 as well, or are those autodings too?

    Also what do you do if a candidate has a low GPA like a 3.2, but prior M&A investment banking experience and substantial leadership?

    My point was that if your school requires 2 decimal places, you can't round a 3.38 to a 3.40 and consider it to be honest.

    To be completely honest, if I saw a 3.2 GPA, I wouldnt even get to looking at the other stuff. But if a co-worker sent me someone's resume and said "hey I know you're doing UG recruiting, this is someone I know, I would absolutely look through the entire resume and look for a way to make a case on their behalf.

    This stuff is largely subjective. So to all of you crying because you have 3.3's... everyone has a different process. Maybe some people love reading cover letters before they go to sleep at night, maybe some reviewers dont think GPA is an adequate gauge, I know some who like looking at SAT scores... etc... some (myself included) allow some leniency to lower (still needs to be atleast north of 3.3) for difficult majors, etc...

  • anaismalcolm's picture

    Is the books suggestion really a good idea? I feel like that wouldn't look right on a resume. If it is I'll consider it since I don't necessarily have tons of finance experience.

  • General Disarray's picture

    Say your overall gpa is on the low side (3.2ish)...but your major (finance/economics) gpa is 3.7+. How does that work? auto ding? do you even bother looking at the rest of the resume?

  • humble_dude's picture

    too bad for me Asian male last name starts with Z. I should join INTERPOL instead.

  • In reply to General Disarray
    rufiolove's picture

    General Disarray:
    Say your overall gpa is on the low side (3.2ish)...but your major (finance/economics) gpa is 3.7+. How does that work? auto ding? do you even bother looking at the rest of the resume?

    You guys are missing the point. If these are your hang ups then it starts to be obvious why you have so much trouble landing interviews/getting offers. You are still trying to find circumstantial answers to "what if" scenarios... Marcus just provided a valuable bit of information but questions like this make me even wanna bash my head against a wall. He just told you how he goes through a resume drop, right? So you now know that if you don't meet the criteria that it's imperative for you to get in front of people, get your name out there, and network your ass off. Clearly the situation is different if he is reviewing resumes and he comes across the resume of someone he has met or who someone he works for can vouch for (he plainly stated this). This is why it's important to get as good of grades as you possibly can and to network. A lot of people don't get interviews the traditional route (through target school resume drops), but you need to figure out what is going to work for you and what you need to do to get to where you want to be. Your situation is akin to some girl whining about how Charlie Sheen won't sleep with her because she isn't a blonde porn star who weighs 105 lbs... does this mean that if you are a brunette with a fairly decent rack and you show up with a suitcase of blow that you won't get your shot? Not necessarily but you have to put in the extra effort and a lot of it may come down to his mood that day.

    Marcus: SB for you man, this was a very valuable post... all you prospective monkeys out there take note of the suggestions on here and tighten up the res...

  • honza's picture

    does completing a Bsc 1 year later than the expected time with a GPA of 4.0 and other relevant stuff imply a ding?

  • dominatingtheT's picture

    Thanks for this. That crazy fuck Bateman was wrong to have called you a dickhead.

    Interview -> internship -> FT stats are startling. The 75 resumes weren't the entire pool for this Ivy, were they?

    Looks like I have my work cut out for me.

  • gamenumbers's picture

    I am an associate and have been very involved with recruiting. I am part of my alma-maters "recruiting team", which consists of a handful of guys (all levels, but associate heavy). The process there is similar, but different. Networking counts for a lot, and I was one of the interviewers at the super day.

    I was also involved in undergrad recruiting recently, and will get my first undergrad intern (we run a small winter internship for a school that does not participate in the summer process; i think a senior md or something must have gone to school there or something). Anyway the process is very much like what is described above.

    I will say one more thing.....if you don't respond to my emails....you are not going to get an offer.

    A few anecdotes: We do this thing where we will bring the MBAs into a room and ask the group very difficult questions, rapid fire. There was this one dude who had the balls to answer some tough math type questions which were asked by the guy who ran the entire floor.....guess what he got the offer.

    We also had an alternate who *barely* made it to the interview process. MD didn't like him. We didn't like him. Nobody liked him...too nerdy...maybe annoying we thought. But this guy KILLED the interview, and he got the offer that evening.

    As for undergrads honesly I'm looking for 1) interest in finance 2) some level of academic achievement 3) somebody who i would enjoy working with. I'm a believer in *fit*...but that's just me. I don't want to have to manage some douchebag.

    Oh and if you are a new intern with an offer, and you don't respond promptly to my fucking emails you are on my shit list and everybody elses. My last intern didn't think he needed to respond to my emails for a few days at a time, (this was before he started) and we destroyed him when he finally arrived.

    Final thought: I get 100 emails by 9am. Don't write me anything lengthy, and it needs to fit on my bberry screen.

  • HarvardOrBust's picture

    gamenumbers,

    If the email you send to the intern only requires him to say "Thanks," do you still want him to reply with the thanks even if it adds to your inbox? I've had this problem a number of times, would like some clarification.

  • In reply to rufiolove
    GotBushels's picture

    Marcus_Halberstram:
    ....

    rufiolove:
    ...

    +2

    great posts guys thanks for that

  • In reply to chubbybunny
    APAE's picture

    chubbybunny:
    A Posse Ad Esse:
    Interesting to read, surprised given my candidacy I made it into the number of superdays I did if all this holds true.
    It's cuz your black. You're a minority, ever heard of affirmative action?
    Affirmative action my fucking ass. Nice try though.

    Most people do things to add days to their life. I do things to add life to my days.

    Browse my blog as a WSO contributing author

  • In reply to APAE
    chubbybunny's picture

    A Posse Ad Esse:
    chubbybunny:
    A Posse Ad Esse:
    Interesting to read, surprised given my candidacy I made it into the number of superdays I did if all this holds true.
    It's cuz your black. You're a minority, ever heard of affirmative action?
    Affirmative action my fucking ass. Nice try though.

    Don't act oblivious. You're the black kid in Stern who went through the sophomore diversity recruiting with Barclays, MS, GS e etc, and ultimately chose MS. There's nothing wrong with using your skin color to your advantage - actually it is a huge bonus that many (including I) are envious of. But don't mistake your BB internship offers as a sign of pure merit - a large part of it had to do with the fact that your black, and the fact that Stern only has a handful of black minorities.

    *PS. Don't forget your GPA was bulge bracket banks would have noticed you if you weren't a minority?

  • In reply to chubbybunny
    gsduke's picture

    chubbybunny:
    A Posse Ad Esse:
    chubbybunny:
    A Posse Ad Esse:
    Interesting to read, surprised given my candidacy I made it into the number of superdays I did if all this holds true.
    It's cuz your black. You're a minority, ever heard of affirmative action?
    Affirmative action my fucking ass. Nice try though.

    Don't act oblivious. You're the black kid in Stern who went through the sophomore diversity recruiting with Barclays, MS, GS e etc, and ultimately chose MS. There's nothing wrong with using your skin color to your advantage - actually it is a huge bonus that many (including I) are envious of. But don't mistake your BB internship offers as a sign of pure merit - a large part of it had to do with the fact that your black, and the fact that Stern only has a handful of black minorities.

    *PS. Don't forget your GPA was bulge bracket banks would have noticed you if you weren't a minority?

    lol@forum fightzzzz

  • SunTzu's picture

    A lot of you need to realize that a resume simply gets you in the door, then they realize how much of a robotic/asian/indian economics major you really are, thats when they decided to go with the caucasian frat star because he can drink his weight in an hour and still make error-fre models and can talk to the BSD about how many sailboats he owns.

    In my opinion, every candidate is the same cookie-cutter copy until you get to personality and intangibles.

    C.R.E.A.M.

  • ambition56's picture

    THIS IS AWESOME! Based on my interviews this week, I have some questions for you.

    Once you get an interview( I know this is for part two but I have superdays next week and I need more advice), should I try to impressive the interviewer with my market knowledge and prepared fit responses that really demonstrate my interest in the markets/trading or just go where the conversation takes us.

    I've also had superdays where NONE of the candidates had tech questions beyond what do you think the market is going to do this year... so how do they decide who gets the summer offers? I felt like I did pretty well and connected with my interviewers but still didn't get the offer in the end, while someone from my school who did not have as much experience inside and outside of finance got offers. Not trying to be a dick here but just trying to figure out how everything works. What criteria are they rating people on? Is it a democratic vote or is it more based on senior management? If one person hates you, can you still get an offer?

    I've been told getting an interviewer to talk about him/herself is a good strategy but I find myself talking a lot more in interviews, telling the interviewer my story, expressing my interest, and giving them my view on the market. Do you think that I should just relax, kiss ass some more and ask the interviewers more about their jobs, advice and interests?

  • quag_mire's picture

    ambition were you interviewed by traders or sales people? some interviews I had with traders at BBs (especially derivatives traders) where pretty technical (i.e discuss the greeks of a calendar spread position OTM, ATM, ITM etc)....otherwise yea most people get the same bs questions....the barrier to entry to S&T seems pretty low (relatively) once you're actually at a target..

  • ambition56's picture

    I've only had one technical interview by a trader all my other interviews were fit and they were all with traders and sales people.

  • In reply to ambition56
    futuramo's picture

    ambition56:
    THIS IS AWESOME! Based on my interviews this week, I have some questions for you.

    Once you get an interview( I know this is for part two but I have superdays next week and I need more advice), should I try to impressive the interviewer with my market knowledge and prepared fit responses that really demonstrate my interest in the markets/trading or just go where the conversation takes us.

    I've also had superdays where NONE of the candidates had tech questions beyond what do you think the market is going to do this year... so how do they decide who gets the summer offers? I felt like I did pretty well and connected with my interviewers but still didn't get the offer in the end, while someone from my school who did not have as much experience inside and outside of finance got offers. Not trying to be a dick here but just trying to figure out how everything works. What criteria are they rating people on? Is it a democratic vote or is it more based on senior management? If one person hates you, can you still get an offer?

    I've been told getting an interviewer to talk about him/herself is a good strategy but I find myself talking a lot more in interviews, telling the interviewer my story, expressing my interest, and giving them my view on the market. Do you think that I should just relax, kiss ass some more and ask the interviewers more about their jobs, advice and interests?

    Don't try to impress anybody. You are a college student and more likely than not will know next to nothing. If you tell somebody your view off the market, they will assume you memorized this from some sort of reading you. They will ask you follow up questions and if you are not able to answer you will look incredibly stupid.

  • ambition56's picture

    In most of my interviews, I talk about following the markets. They ask me for my views and I express my general optimism with possible housing and inflation threats supported by a few data points. I think this is standard and demonstrates that I not only follow the markets but am able to generate and express a view.
    I'm just interested in what kind of criteria interviewers actually use to select candidates, if it's a subjective scale/rating or more objective.

  • In reply to chubbybunny
    APAE's picture

    chubbybunny:
    A Posse Ad Esse:
    chubbybunny:
    A Posse Ad Esse:
    Interesting to read, surprised given my candidacy I made it into the number of superdays I did if all this holds true.
    It's cuz your black. You're a minority, ever heard of affirmative action?
    Affirmative action my fucking ass. Nice try though.
    Don't act oblivious. You're the black kid in Stern who went through the sophomore diversity recruiting with Barclays, MS, GS e etc, and ultimately chose MS. There's nothing wrong with using your skin color to your advantage - actually it is a huge bonus that many (including I) are envious of. But don't mistake your BB internship offers as a sign of pure merit - a large part of it had to do with the fact that your black, and the fact that Stern only has a handful of black minorities.

    *PS. Don't forget your GPA was bulge bracket banks would have noticed you if you weren't a minority?

    *sigh* If only your facts were straight, you'd be right. I have never been one to leverage my ethnicity as an advantage for jack shit.

    Did I do Goldman's SFE/diversity recruiting? Nope. Does Morgan even have a diversity recruiting initiative? Not that I know of. BarCap's Generation Next? Okay, but in all frankness, I would have applied regardless of who I am because in terms of fit, it's probably at the top of my list, so I simply wanted it most and would've ignored that it "encourages African-American, Hispanic-American, Native-American, female, and disabled applicants."

    I don't mistake my offers as a mark of merit. There are thousands of kids out there who could probably do a better job than I will right away, who have a higher GPA/SAT/class rank/any other metric, with better ECs ... But I don't think there's many more who wanted it more. I pay for school fully on my own. I took a risk going where I went, paying what I pay, and I wanted something so I pursued it. I networked my fucking ass off, emailed/called/visited people, participated in panels and seminars and preprofessional programs and anything else I could get myself into. And you know what? It paid off. Whether the amount of melanin in my skin or my determination and ability to carry myself in an interview got me where I've gotten is something you can debate until you're blue in the face. All I know is that I didn't do Goldman's SFE when I could've, I didn't do diversity with Morgan or Citi or JPM or CS when they all offered it along with scholarships, I went through the general applicant pool like any other schmuck and just went ham in interviews.

    Personally, and I had a conversation about this with ANT when I met him, I think it's complete horseshit that someone's race is a factor in recruiting. I would be offended if someone wanted me simply as a statistic, and for that reason I'm strongly against affirmative action as most people think of it. The problem lies in hard policies, i.e. the 1990s UMich policies where x-percentage of students HAD to be black. Soft policies where a firm/school simply explores the possibility of hiring people from a broader pool of talent than they've previously looked at is a mark of social responsibility (i.e. perhaps stepping outside HYP for a second or looking past Exeter/Deerfield) and something I think is appropriate. If someone wants me for ME, for the experiences and life story and traits I can bring to the job, brilliant; ethnicity was a huge defining factor in the formation of my self-identity and made me who I am today, so I suppose indirectly it could net me a job, but not for anything as superficial as you're claiming.

    I'm the kid who refused to list his ethnicity on his SATs, on any job app growing up, and any part of recruiting I've done in school. So fuck you for telling me I got something simply by sitting back and flying on the laurels of diversity when that's actually quite far from the case. If it were, all 16 black sophomores and 18 juniors and 34 Hispanic sophomores and 36 juniors from Stern would have BB offers just like I do. Wait, they don't.

    *PS. Don't ever say "black minorities" out loud, it's just dumb ignorant and makes you sound like more of a tool than you already did.

    Most people do things to add days to their life. I do things to add life to my days.

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  • In reply to gamenumbers
    TheHungryOne's picture

    gamenumbers:
    We also had an alternate who *barely* made it to the interview process. MD didn't like him. We didn't like him. Nobody liked him...too nerdy...maybe annoying we thought. But this guy KILLED the interview, and he got the offer that evening.

    He killed at nailing the technicals or did he have a good story or both?

  • In reply to TheHungryOne
    happypantsmcgee's picture

    TheHungryOne:
    gamenumbers:
    We also had an alternate who *barely* made it to the interview process. MD didn't like him. We didn't like him. Nobody liked him...too nerdy...maybe annoying we thought. But this guy KILLED the interview, and he got the offer that evening.

    He killed at nailing the technicals or did he have a good story or both?

    Generally when someone says they 'KILLED' an interview...its both

    If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

  • In reply to APAE
    WishYouWereHere's picture

    A Posse Ad Esse:
    chubbybunny:
    A Posse Ad Esse:
    chubbybunny:
    A Posse Ad Esse:
    Interesting to read, surprised given my candidacy I made it into the number of superdays I did if all this holds true.
    It's cuz your black. You're a minority, ever heard of affirmative action?
    Affirmative action my fucking ass. Nice try though.
    Don't act oblivious. You're the black kid in Stern who went through the sophomore diversity recruiting with Barclays, MS, GS e etc, and ultimately chose MS. There's nothing wrong with using your skin color to your advantage - actually it is a huge bonus that many (including I) are envious of. But don't mistake your BB internship offers as a sign of pure merit - a large part of it had to do with the fact that your black, and the fact that Stern only has a handful of black minorities.

    *PS. Don't forget your GPA was bulge bracket banks would have noticed you if you weren't a minority?

    *sigh* If only your facts were straight, you'd be right. I have never been one to leverage my ethnicity as an advantage for jack shit.

    Did I do Goldman's SFE/diversity recruiting? Nope. Does Morgan even have a diversity recruiting initiative? Not that I know of. BarCap's Generation Next? Okay, but in all frankness, I would have applied regardless of who I am because in terms of fit, it's probably at the top of my list, so I simply wanted it most and would've ignored that it "encourages African-American, Hispanic-American, Native-American, female, and disabled applicants."

    I don't mistake my offers as a mark of merit. There are thousands of kids out there who could probably do a better job than I will right away, who have a higher GPA/SAT/class rank/any other metric, with better ECs ... But I don't think there's many more who wanted it more. I pay for school fully on my own. I took a risk going where I went, paying what I pay, and I wanted something so I pursued it. I networked my fucking ass off, emailed/called/visited people, participated in panels and seminars and preprofessional programs and anything else I could get myself into. And you know what? It paid off. Whether the amount of melanin in my skin or my determination and ability to carry myself in an interview got me where I've gotten is something you can debate until you're blue in the face. All I know is that I didn't do Goldman's SFE when I could've, I didn't do diversity with Morgan or Citi or JPM or CS when they all offered it along with scholarships, I went through the general applicant pool like any other schmuck and just went ham in interviews.

    Personally, and I had a conversation about this with ANT when I met him, I think it's complete horseshit that someone's race is a factor in recruiting. I would be offended if someone wanted me simply as a statistic, and for that reason I'm strongly against affirmative action as most people think of it. The problem lies in hard policies, i.e. the 1990s UMich policies where x-percentage of students HAD to be black. Soft policies where a firm/school simply explores the possibility of hiring people from a broader pool of talent than they've previously looked at is a mark of social responsibility (i.e. perhaps stepping outside HYP for a second or looking past Exeter/Deerfield) and something I think is appropriate. If someone wants me for ME, for the experiences and life story and traits I can bring to the job, brilliant; ethnicity was a huge defining factor in the formation of my self-identity and made me who I am today, so I suppose indirectly it could net me a job, but not for anything as superficial as you're claiming.

    I'm the kid who refused to list his ethnicity on his SATs, on any job app growing up, and any part of recruiting I've done in school. So fuck you for telling me I got something simply by sitting back and flying on the laurels of diversity when that's actually quite far from the case. If it were, all 16 black sophomores and 18 juniors and 34 Hispanic sophomores and 36 juniors from Stern would have BB offers just like I do. Wait, they don't.

    *PS. Don't ever say "black minorities" out loud, it's just dumb ignorant and makes you sound like more of a tool than you already did.

    Dude you are a fuckin' G. Would give you a silver banana if I had any left.

  • HarvardOrBust's picture

    Not to be a dick, but why did MS give you a 15k scholarship?

  • In reply to happypantsmcgee
    gamenumbers's picture

    happypantsmcgee:
    TheHungryOne:
    gamenumbers:
    We also had an alternate who *barely* made it to the interview process. MD didn't like him. We didn't like him. Nobody liked him...too nerdy...maybe annoying we thought. But this guy KILLED the interview, and he got the offer that evening.

    He killed at nailing the technicals or did he have a good story or both?

    Generally when someone says they 'KILLED' an interview...its both

    The reason I cited that story is to demonstrate that you always have an opportunity to change people's minds.

    Internally sometimes, we feel like we "know" who is going to get offers because of the amount of networking involved in recruiting. We have this perception within the bank that we know who is doing well and who is not doing well in the recruiting process. (yes we share notes)

    As part of my school's recruiting team, I got to know the candidates on a personal level over the course of a few months. Anyway this guy came across as very intelligent and well spoken in his final round, and had great answers and insight for every question (Fit and technicals) and just seemed like a much more sophisticated guy than we imagined.

    I cannot stress how important networking is at my shop to landing an interview. Bottom line.

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