Private Credit $350k+ working 0-20 hours a week. Crazy for leaving?
I’m a VP at a MM direct lending firm ($5-10B AUM) in NYC making $350-400k, while putting in an average of 0-20 hours per week (still WFH). This has been my schedule for the past 2-3 years. I have full autonomy over deal execution, so there’s almost no chance I get blown up before a weekend or have to do late nights. I can’t remember the last time I worked past 6pm or on a weekend. The downside is that comp obviously is below market and growth isn’t great (think $20-40k bumps per annum), so I’ve been thinking about moving on to a different shop where I’d probably get paid $100k or so more. Am I crazy for considering leaving what many would consider the ultimate lifestyle gig? I’m not hurting for cash but it would be nice to get comped in line with my peers from my analyst class.
You should absolutely leave and pm me the posting to replace your role.
LMAOO
and me pls
😆
Sounds crazy as hell to me if you are just chasing comp - would make more sense if you are looking for a new challenge / feeling bored and unfulfilled in your current role with so much free time.
This is totally about what you value. If you’re time is worth 100k or more to you don’t move. Also, as a data point, I work at a similar size private credit firm and we pay our senior associates more than you make now.
how much do your senior associates and VPs make if you don't mind me asking?
Associate 1 - 250-300
Associate 2 - 350-400
Associate 3 - 400-475
Anecdotally, we were looking to hire a principal level underwriter at 800k.
“0-20hrs per week”
”350k to $400k”
”comp is obviously below market”
Let me digest this…what is market? Bill gates getting a lambo after taking a piss for 1 min?
Below market for the YOE, title, and size of the fund.
Far, far below market for hours worked, my friend.
is it below market for the amount of work done? I don't think so.
if you adjust "market" for title, YOE, and fund size, then you have to adjust it for hours, type of work/tasks, difficulty of work, stress. your comp is way way above market.
99% of this user site is either in college or grinding until the wee hours of the morning and you are already in an exit ops role essentially stating, "I am only making nearly half a mil a year, have a great WLB, never have to set foot in the office, but I want to leave because boredom / salary dissatisfaction".
I understand being bored and wanting to do more professionally, but either:
A. Leave for a more demanding job and you have to start at the bottom again and lose all autonomy over your own life
B. Start a side hustle
C. Actively follow the markets and invest with your own capital for excess annual income without sacrificing your autonomy
D. Develop hobbies and build a life that is meaningful to you
Please realize that no one on here who has your best interests at heart can honestly tell you to leave in pursuit of greener pastures.
Lastly, the economy is about to tank so now is absolutely NOT the time to switch jobs in hope of a fatter paycheck. You are senior and no doubt have strong ties at your current firm, including people willing to go to bat for you. To an extent, I understand where you are at. I left my last job for better comp and work experience, and am now back to regularly burning the midnight oil. I did it because I am much younger than you, need to build a nest egg, and needed better experience (I was better at modeling than my director and VP, not a good sign). If the only reason you would leave is comp, my advice would be to stay put for now. I do honestly sympathize with feeling frustrated about making less than your peers, but unless you can opine on where this additional capital needs to go or how it would materially improve your life, just stay put for the next year or so. Anyone else is welcome to chime in, but from my reading all signs point to a recession within the next 6-24 months.
Isn't it normal? I'm better at modeling than my managers. But it's cause they don't do modeling, I do it, and they manage me. So even if they did it 5 years ago, now they can't do simple stuff cause a lot of time passed.
Get a hobby you can sink 40-60 h per week into and if you’re still unhappy after a real try at this (3-4 months) then quit
I've been spending most of my free time with my daughter at home. She is getting shipped off to daycare soon though so I would have the capacity to take on more hours with a more lucrative gig.
good to see you're taking initiatives with day care before shipping em' off to boarding school!
bro spend time with your daughter or do you want her to have an OnlyFans down the line 💀
Give me this job plz. You're literally living my dream / end goal right now. 0-20 hours a week with that comp is UNHEARD of...
Work with a lot of MM DL's & def do not know all their hours/comp but i will say there's a 100% difference between the true MM lenders those who are under a MF groups targeting MM PC. Actually could not be more obvious in every call because on the one side I feel like I'm dealing with happy go-lucky people & the other side is legitimately like I just ran over their dog. Sounds like you got life made rn brother & you're suffering from the grass is always greener syndrome & I feel it's my responsibility to till you you'd be making a mistake leaving to make a simple $60k which after tax ain't much (and in our industry of PC ain't crazy). You got it made, enjoy it, & if you leave lmk the job offer
I can't say that life is bad and I feel grateful for what I have. $60k cash, per annum, adds up over time though.
Assuming you’ll start working 40-50 hours per week for an additional $60K, is that $23/hr really what you NEED? Find some hobbies and have some fun…assume you have a wife and daughter as per your other comment.
if it adds up, start driving Uber or Amazon delivery in your free time or get a job at Wendy's, and you'll get your $60k incremental.
What kind of backgrounds did the people at MM lenders come from? MM banks? Corporate or even commercial banking? Or other?
It varies, but rarely do people come from corporate or commercial banking. Most are from BB (preference for LevFin, FSG), MM banks or some other credit shop.
Depends on the shop. I’ve been looking on LinkedIn recently and Antares for example hires quite a bit of CB background and even big 4.
Is it all culture driven at the MFs? Curious to hear more about this as I'd assume the work is exactly the same whether you're at a dedicated MM shop or a MM group within a MF arm. What more is there to grind through? Unless the MFs have way worse memos.
Add a remote tech job and work 20 hours a week for the extra 200k.
No kidding, I'd actually vouch for this as someone who did something similar. I had periods of significant downtime in over one summer in college. It might not give you the same "fulfillment" you may be looking for in a job
Would have to report outside business interests, so this likely wouldn't work for me unfortunately.
Not saying you should go against the rules but just curious how the company can find out?
This is the right answer
Where can you find a $200k remote job for less than 20 hrs??
350-400K is baller for a not large-cap credit fund where you're living the life you want... unless you feel your career growth is being seriously stifled, I'm not sure why you'd bounce to a different shop. Sounds like you cracked a near-perfect gig in terms of WLB. Is getting another 100k (which is nothing to scoff at) worth you ending all the lifestyle benefits you currently have?
even with no career growth, $350-400k growing with inflation for 0-20h/week is an end career comp - I would take it.
100% this.
I would say at that comp level you’d be crazy to leave. Unless you love the work and want to do more of it for a little extra cash, you should consider taking that free time and trying to find a way to make up the difference doing something you enjoy.
You’re in the top 1% of salaries already. Don’t go chasing rainbows cause I can assure you the grass is not always greener.
Grass isn’t always greener. If you do decide to leave, please let us know when you’re old shop starts to hire you’re replacement. Many of us would like a chance at making 350k+ working 0 - 20 hours a week.
With that much free time, you should be able to find a way to make an additional 100k/year on the side.
what fund is this? will switch asap
Mans gotta be trolling me.
Insane to leave IMO. Instead just find better things to do with your free time. Make some friends, get in great shape, meet a spouse, etc. or start some side income opportunities. Or both. You've won the lottery but aren't realizing it.
Interesting dissonance I see on this forum: when comparing careers in finance to tech, the consensus is that finance is better than tech despite tech’s amazing WLB because the earnings increase more rapidly versus tech, which can stagnate for a while at ~400k. Yet, whenever someone posts with an actual situation where they have amazing WLB but lower/stagnated earnings, the consensus is always overwhelmingly that they should stay in their job and are lucky to be there.
Because most of us have already chosen finance. If I had a time machine, I'm telling my younger self to study comp sci and I'd be in one of those cushy work-from-anywhere tech jobs rn.
This is the correct answer. When I was in school my goal was to be an MD making $1MM in 10-15 years. 80 hours a week? No big deal, it’s a part of the job with models and bottles to compensate!
Then you actually join finance and realize how overworked your seniors are and how depressing their lives are and your perceptions shift. Being on call 24/7 with a minimum of 70+ hours a week leaves seniors with little time outside of work and schmoozing clients is extremely overrated (nothing like hanging out with friends).
My goal has changed to find something like OP has with half the comp (even ~$150k is good). I used to think people like that were lazy midwits but my opinion has changed dramatically post college.
1) this is an anonymous forum. Entirely possible these are two entirely distinct groups of respondents
2) I really like the idea of working fewer hours, but at this stage I like making more money even more
3) This is a uniquely low level of hours at OP’s comp level; the decision is typically against more like 40-45 hours a week. I left a job making $200k total for 55 hours a week for one paying $450k cash + $2M carry DAW at 80 hours a week - I would make that decision again every day because the difference in comp was lifechanging and I was already working hard. But if it was $350k-$400k at 20 hours a week, the calculus changes dramatically
Just an intern, but I’ve seen the Tech v. Finance pop up a lot in school as well. I think the key difference is a true stagnant position v. a slow down. In tech, my understanding is that you can genuinely get stuck at a certain level/ pay range, albeit with amazing WLB. Perhaps trying to externally switch jobs could possibly help with moving up, but there’s just a pretty firm ceiling for the “average case” high-performing SWE.
In finance, it seems that the growth may slow down, but years of experience really help. In this VPs case, assuming that he’s meeting the expectations of his role within his hours, he’d be on track for principal and higher.
This reminds me of the case where there was a VP3 in debt advisory who was paid below market (400k) but with fantastic WLB. The consensus was to stick in that role, get to a senior position there (600k), and then lateral to a higher ranked firm (800k+).
More commonly, it seems like a burnt out banker in CorpDev on-paper could outperform SWEs over the years, as they gain experience and switch roles within the company on the slow grind to upper management, especially in non-tech companies.
Of course, SWE seems to have the best WLB across all levels, even if there’s a bit of a wall mid-career, and this is all in theory since few students really have the option to pursue SWE or IB out of college. Overall, I’m really interested to hear other thoughts.
It’s just values. If you value WLB, tech beats finance almost always and you can still make a great living. You can even go the startup route and potentially get lucky and retire in your mid 30s.
Sure, the money in banking is great. But in my opinion, I don’t know why people break their backs to work 80 hour weeks for money they’ll hardly get to enjoy and prestige that is basically imaginary because people outside finance have no idea what Apollo is or think Morgan Stanley is another place to open a checking account.
There is certainly human value to setting goals and achieving them, to being driven and putting in the work. For my money, I’d rather maximize my WLB and my paycheck in a balancing act, never letting one take too much away from the other. Banking won’t allow me to do that, tech does
it's mainly cause tech work is torture (try debagging algorithms and you'll agree), so if you can get comparable comp for being an Excel monkey even with much longer hours, I would take it. but if you can be an Excel monkey with an amazing WLB with a slight comp haircut, then it can't get any better than this.
I'd probably stay tbh. Even the raises you quoted per year are pretty solid 20k being roughly 5% and 40k being 11%. Even on the low end in 5 years you'll be making about 500k if they continue.
Would you suck my balls for 10 minutes if I paid you 1 mil? that in line with your peers? probably eh? greed truly has no limits. what about spending some time starting a family??
Had to really think about that one
I ain’t gay or anythin but a million dollars is a million dollars….
Do you get carry?
$350-$400K for 0 - 20 hours in private credit?
Wow! I know plenty of ppl who would take that job for many more hours a week.
The grass is definitely not greener.
I suggest keeping this job and doing an M7 EMBA on the side or picking up some crazy hobbies...the grass is definitely not greener....
What was your previous work experience that allowed you to land such a job?
I was an analyst at a top FSG group at a BB, then 2 years at a well known, non MF PC shop before moving over to my current gig.
.
You’re an idiot to even consider leaving. You’ve clearly worked hard to get to a cushy gig - don’t throw it away in a moment of madness.
Just when I think I’ve seen it all on WSO a thread like this comes along…
Appreciate all of the comments and insight so far. Really reaffirms my thoughts on staying put (at least for the time being). I’m actually already married and had a baby recently, so family time/WLB is key. One other important thing to note though is that we are not up or out and the promo to Principal/MD can be quite difficult. Not sure if that changes anyone’s mind on the attractiveness of the role overall. Many people are in their roles for 4-5+ years.
Hang in there man, if not for yourself, for wife and kids. That promo to principal / MD will happen. Extra 20-40 hrs with the kids? That’s what we’ll all wish we spent time on in our death beds. All jokes aside, I’m happy to see someone on this forum to have found a sick gig like this.
I am curious though - is your role in originations, portfolio management, or another group? Building a case for 0-20hrs myself lmao.
Yeah, I think I've lost sight of what's really important at the end of the day. My role is in the underwriting group.
Know your situation. Not every shop will promote VP UW to SVP / Principal - depends on how well your book is doing. If you are already lead UW on a deal, they don't get incremental value out of you by making you SVP or MD. In general, originators get inflated titles because they are out in the market. Most other credit shops (outside MFs) should know this.
At a new shop that doesn't have Originations and UW broken out, you may sink a lot of time into term sheets that go nowhere (essentially all the work your originators may be doing right now). Also may have to do portfolio work - sounds like you aren't doing that or your book is super clean.
I think it comes down to certainty of promotion and will you be OK if you don't get it. If flow slows down, what incentive do they have to promote you other than retention? A lot of PC shops aren't as defined as PE - there is no VP 1,2,3 concept. Are you a new VP or an older one? - if you want to move, it is still explainable if you are a senior UW. There are only so many Head of UW and manager roles at each shop - i.e. titles don't always compare to the outside world.
In general, more difficult to move the older you get (fewer seats - but also true for IB and PE) - so need to have a view on how likely it is to have a LT career at your shop. You can sustain this kind of a gig for longer if they are open to it.
The grass is almost never greener on the other side. Sure that extra $100K sounds nice, but after taxes it's probably $60K. What does that come with? Definitely more hours worked, probably weekend work, likely more stress to perform at new shop. Need to reprove yourself and gain colleague's trust again. All I'm saying is to really think it through. Do you want to be the new VP grinding the hours yet again...?
High-performing PC originations is a life hack imo
Agreed - highly underrated gig, especially if you are doing sponsor coverage.
Yes lol. Wth is wrong with you.
Tell me capital was cheap without telling me capital was cheap.
Do you mind PMing me so I can ask you a few questions?
I would not leave I am in a similar boat. I currently have a pretty easy job making great money came from a mega fund prior MBB to that. I actually do close zero work and my role is easy. My reviews are great and was rated a 4.7/5.0 this past year with 80% cash bonus plus 50% stock on top of my options I had when I joined. I occasionally I spit out a deck for our board once a quarter and develop strategies for growth.
I went from a 12 handicap to a 6 hanidcap and worked on my short game. I WFH 2 days a week and if I do go to the office I get into work at 8 have our daily team meeting, leave for the gym at 9 am back by 10:30 am. Head to a networking lunch around 11:30, read the news, or dip out and play golf. Latest I stay in 4 PM period. I do travel once a week for various meetings sometimes extended but most the time I just report what was said back to our C-Suite. Last year I went to Europe for a week and a half and nobody seemed to notice.
I have taken advantage of this time. I have also been networking like crazy and had opportunities come up for more money but honestly at a portco we went public our stock has held up since we IPOd and I have shares that have not vested at a meaningful amount so zero reason for me to leave. I do give the allusion that I work nonstop though. Our CEO and I have a repour and this is his last venture before he retires. Do I plan on doing this forever no but I am looking at this as downtime for years of having to work nonstop.
Nice, any reflective thoughts on how to get that handicap from 12 to 6?
Good read. How difficult was it securing this kind of gig?
If 20 hours is $350k then $100k more for 20 hours more (basically 100% more work) is probably not worth it. And with the recession coming, you're probably safer at your current shop. With all the extra time you have, you could probably find other ways to make extra money. Especially once asset prices really start to fall.
Private credit is paradise
…nvm, there is nothing to shit on
Starting an SA at an MF PC group - is there really nothing bad about PC?
MF PC is different than MM PC. MF PC work similar hours as MF PE from my friends who work there. Might be slightly better but no way you see the hours at MM PC (I work in MM Pc).
how do you land a position like this?
I’d strongly consider keeping this dream WLB:comp job setup but getting an additional job. Even a side hustle of some sort if you can’t get a full time other job… could probably get that incremental 100-200k doing some consulting type work and such
laughing at the noobs eating this post up. the OP is going to be replaced by someone cheaper, seen it happen to many 'untouchables' in PC over the years. especially now there is little deal flow.
LMFAOOOOOO, yes you’d be crazy
Man I miss Antares so much
Antares has good wlb but not to this level (probably 50-60 hours on average but can have longer hours with deal flow; you probably know). Comps are market now though, so decent wlb + market comp.If I were to guess this is a shop that doesn't get agency and commits to small tickets at deals they look at. Get spoon fed diligence and won't get chased by sponsors for commitment papers.
Do you think another 100k will fix your life?
I think you would be better off spending the remaining 20 hrs a week to even have a FT job deciding where you want to invest???
Do research in the Midwest for real estate and start a portfolio. Your gains from renovations will surpass any salary bumps in no time. Why would you leave something with such incredible WLB???
How does analyst level pay/hours fair up in a private credit group?
Can we stop with this troll shit
Full form of MM?
Do you guys recruit in Europe?
actually laughing at people replying to this seriously.
Don’t leave in my opinion. That salary is hard to come by. In the past when I left my little paying job for a space I would be my own master I had to hire a good hedge fund and stock trader that increased my current networth then from 700,000$ to $4.3 million in just 1 year via margin trading. If you have my knowledge, connections and network you’ll make a lot of money. I’ll be thrilled to connect with a lot of people.
Proof there are retards across all levels of an organization.
Lol, you’re crystallized mediocrity in its purest form. “It would be nice to get paid street”. Anything above $0.00 is above market comp for your grade of talent.
Idk op, but whoever supplied the drugs that influenced the thought of this decision is a real MVP. Has to be some quality stuff!
I'm in a similar situation (though not as good hours as OP) and have had the exact same dilemma. My concern is more around longevity - we're headed into a recession and surely they're not going to keep me around with minimal value add (not that my peers are working much harder) plus I just feel like I haven't learned anything in a couple of years. Very much in the dilemma of getting back in the grind to try and advance my career or staying put clipping checks basically until I get fired....
Work to Live versus Live to Work.
I could probably earn more elsewhere if I wanted to, but then I'd likely lose the WFH and other flexibility I really need right now. For me, I'm not up to new challenges and that much change at the present time. Depends where you're at in life. But I always say it never hurts to look around and network in case something piques your interest.
0-20 hours lol the 0 hour work week
I know, like what they attend one Zoom call and that's about it for the week? Sweet!
What size shop is this? Can you provide any more info without doxing yourself? In PC and we are getting crushed in hours / deal flow lol
Must be nice. I personally would stay at the cushy place if I had it, but you sense an opportunity to possibly find something even more cushy? Could be.
It never hurts to go sniff the grass on the other side of the fence--it might taste just as good or even better. But keep in mind, the extra $100k in comp might come with 20-30 hours more work per week too. Just saying. But if you're bored where you're at in your current cushyville, by all means it might be time to move on if you want to further your career or you're the type who thrives on new challenges. It depends of what you want out of life versus career and you should really think about that. Best of luck!
Bro 20 hours a week and that comp is solid. I don’t get why you aren’t starting a business lmao.
You are in paradise.
What career is this? How long does it take to get to this lifestyle and comp?
You could always just start investing in real estate on the side. Take the day job money and the spare time and grow a small fortune into a big one.
Yea this sounds like an unreal deal. Stick it out and if you feel unfulfilled use the spare time to work on a side project
Grass is greener syndrome
This post pisses me off. I am trying to understand why that’s my natural inclination. Is it jealousy? Perhaps. Maybe it’s something f to do with the ingratitude and entitled nature of the thought process. Or maybe it’s the squandering of the opportunity to start a side business or invest wisely with one’s salary. But the very entitled nature of the idea that getting paid $350k with minimal is not good enough or worthy of the OP is a off-putting.
Maybe not. Maybe he and his shop are efficient. Maybe doesn't need to show his partner 10 different scenarios on 15 different things that don't happen. If he is still closing deals and they are performing, then he's good at his job and doesn't work inefficiently. Very doable with autonomy, trust, and junior help. This also happens when you are doing 1-2 deals at once vs. 3-4 at once. He is just considering maximizing absolute comp which is a very natural human trait.
I don't think it is ingratitude - it's viewing things from his perspective - i.e. should he focus on absolute comp. And, if you are not feeling the pain each day, which he isn't - then you don't realize the cost (hours) for that incremental $100K. Also you forgot how bad the hours can be once you are sufficiently removed from them. That's not ingratitude. It's just perspective.
Also, he never said the job is not worthy. I've been in a similar spot and can relate to him.
And how do you know he is not investing wisely??
I was in a very similar seat pre-covid (but more like 40-50; but had it been wfh - would have worked less), and the only thing incremental I can say is make sure your book is good, and you're doing deals. It's only as good as the music lasts. And if the music is on, enjoy life.
Peak
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