Point72 Interview Nightmare
A random LinkedIn recruiter reached out to me about Point72 I thought nothing of it but sent my resume. A few days later I had an interview with someone from business development.
They sent me a Wonderlic test and a 30 min modeling test. Within a few days I had interviews with two different PMs within Point72.
PM #1 scheduled a one hour video interview with me and since I am in the office full time I took a vacation day to prepare and do the interview from home. There were a few technical questions but it was mainly about my motivations and he ended up sending me his case study.
The case study was a Bear, Base, Bull projection on a public company with a DCF, Public Comps, LBO, and M&A model with an accompanying 25 page write-up. I had a week to complete it and went home for about 3 hours a day between working on this case study and my full-time job. Completely destroyed me but I was able to submit some pretty good work and not miss anything from my current job.
After a debrief going through the materials, PM #1 invites me to meet in person. At the same time I have another interview scheduled with PM #2. I take two additional vacation days, one to meet PM #1 and another to interview with PM #2, my current boss starts to get mad at me and realizes something is up.
PM #1 says he will let me know soon and after an interview with PM #2 he sends me his case study. Also grueling, involves listening to 16 earnings calls and another full model. I spend another week not sleeping, we do the debrief and it also goes well.
I've now done two 40+ hour case studies and taken 4 vacation days.
HR calls and says both PMs want to move me forward. The next step is meeting PM #2s team in the office. I can't take another vacation day so I pretend to have COVID. I meet PM #2s team and it goes well.
PM #1 calls me and says he is going to schedule 2 more interviews with me and senior people. If it goes well he will hire me, one of the happiest moments of my life, sad but true, unfortunately.
HR asks for references, background check info, and salary expectations. My recruiter told me that $200k plus 100% bonus with a $25k signing bonus was median of their range for my experience.
PM #2 wants me to get dinner and drinks with his team, I schedule one of my interviews with PM #1s senior person that day and keep pretending I have COVID, my boss is starting to get actually pissed but I don't care at this point. I keep imagining quitting my current job.
PM #1 texts me and says great job with the first senior guy, one interview left for him.
Get dinner and drinks with PM #2 1 beer and 4 old fashioneds for each team member and me. Great time, could see myself working for either PM.
My fake COVID is over so I take another actual vacation day for my last interview with PM #1's other senior guy.
He starts off by saying he can't find me on the roster for the sports team I was on at my college. I explain that I quit at the end of my first year so they removed me from the roster. He spends more time on it and I can tell he doesn't believe I ever made the team. Luckily someone who works there was on the team with me and I tell him that plus some other evidence. The entire interview is an accusatory tone, "why didn't you work full-time at the place you interned", etc. I'm prepared for these questions but was on my back foot.
PM #1 calls me and says that there was a question as to whether I was on my college team and that I was too defensive when given feedback. He explains that I was vetoed by a senior guy and could not work for any PM. It was out of his hands.
I stay on the phone for 30 mins explaining all the evidence that I was on the team and have my teammate who works there reach out to confirm. Doesn't matter. I was vetoed.
I never hear from PM #2 again after having drinks with his team.
HR calls and says that while this is the end of my current opportunity "the door at Point72 isn't closed forever" I say to delete my file and that this was absolutely unfair and ridiculous to veto someone for being too defensive to feedback when the feedback was utterly false.
I'm absolutely devastated.
What do you all think?
what position was this for? The experienced academy program?
Don’t think the experienced academy pays anywhere close to 400k
Jesus. That sounds horrible.
To be honest, it seems like they were trying to pressure test you. Maybe they didn't like how defensive you were (maybe your tone was off)? The Why didn't you intern full-time? question def seemed like a pressure test. “Too defensive when given feedback” is obv not a good thing at a HF
Honestly, you might be right. It's a tough spot because my view was that you have to really defend yourself when accused of lying.
Maybe I should have said "you're right, that shouldn't be on my resume when I ended up quitting the team" but I think that opens up more of an ethical question mark.
When they said "The door at Point72 is not closed forever" that may confirm that the reason you weren't given the offer wasn't because of integrity (or else it would be closed forever). I'm only an incoming intern at HF, but I'm just offering my outside perspective.
Devastating! Did you decide to stay in your current role? If yes, what do you think the dynamic and trust will be like with your boss going forward?
I think a full case study after only an hour's video interview is BS and shows these guys don't have a lot of respect for people's time.
I understand the heartbreak after all the time you put into this, but I think you did everything right here. Don't punish yourself and try to move on.
Last summer I applied to the academy program (London) and the first round was a case straight away, not even after a 30m interview.
Did you end-up receiving an offer? My case study is due soon. Do you have any advise?
My best friend from college interviewed with them and had a very similar interview experience. It was a thorough process, very detailed and with a case study, etc. demanding many hours put in for getting to the next interview stage. At the end, the questioned him for various aspects and challenged every answer he gave them. They didn't make an offer.
how's your friend doing now? this must be tough
I've heard a handful of somewhat similar stories with P72 and their hiring process. The other thing is they seem to love ghosting candidates.
Point72's recruitment processes are and always have been absolute shit. I interviewed with one of their groups and it was a very similar experience -- tons of my investment on my end, multiple interviews, extensive case study that I killed myself to complete. Had multiple interviewers late / missing interviews altogether in the final superday, clear disregard for my time and fuck up on HR's end to schedule like this. Regardless, had really good interviews (with those that bothered to show up) and a few straight up said they were looking forward to having me join the team. HR then began a lengthy process of lying to me and jerking me around, telling me that I had the offer but that they needed time to process paperwork, encouraging me to get extensions elsewhere while they finished things up. They ended up ghosting me.
This is of course aside from their incredibly predatory academy program that fucks good new grads by fundamentally misrepresenting the program, the hedge fund industry, and the role. Have very little good to say about the firm, especially compared to how clean and transparent processes are run at Citadel, BAM, Exodus Point, and other competitors.
why do you think the academy program is predatory? I have a hard time believing paying 200k+ to fresh grads to learn the industry is predatory. Seems like you just have a bad taste in your mouth
The academy team intentionally markets the program by shitting on the idea of banking analyst programs (do you really want to spend all day moving around powerpoint logos, etc.) then presents the academy as a way to bypass this process and immediately start a lucrative career picking stocks. Essentially, they tell kids that if they like the equity markets and want to invest in them, that the program is a perfect fit.
In doing so, they intentionally gloss over a bunch of nuances that the average college sophomore doesn't know: that the quantity and quality of hedge fund opportunities available to them after a reputable banking analyst program will be much higher than after the academy program (and that there will definitely be Point72 seats available then too), that a significant minority of students completing the academy program literally won't get matched with a pm and then will be washed out of the firm with literally no work experience -- just nine months of classroom learning an incredibly niche skill. Who's gonna employ that person? The academy program recruiters don't bother explaining what it really means to work at a market neutral, factor neutral pod shop or about what jobs you could do after -- they don't explain how high turnover is or how much your comp, work / life, and culture will depend on a PM that might not have even been at the firm when you signed your academy offer. Ask any analyst at a multimanager -- really, any one of them -- if they would have committed to joining the firm without knowing who their PM would be. They will laugh at you. Again, these are all things we know as people that have been in the industry and have friends that have worked all over -- the academy program intentionally obfuscates these facts from kids -- that's why they're predatory
I don't think you're familiar at all with the program. 90% of academy graduates were placed with a PM last year. Point72 has a vested interest in retaining them-logically, why pay 200k to teach a kid for a year and then want to kick them out? P72 is also known for having the highest retention and stability out of any MM (in contrast than Citadel or Millennium). If a PM at Point72 underperforms, the analysts are moved to another pod (especially if they went through the academy). Sounds like a lot of people are bitter they got rejected
It's clearly awful that the OP was treated this way, but I think you are painting too broad a brushstroke here:
1. I'm not convinced that the quality of HF seats on average is better post banking. Yes Point72 and the other pods aren't the best, but they are probably better than the 90% of low-capital SMs and ailing asset managers. I've seen exits to Tigers, SMs, places like capital group, and other pod shops- not amazing, but probably better than average. I was able to hunt down one guy on linkedin who went to a no-name , $100m fund, but that was from the first batch of academy grads. There are probably a few others who would "never" take a pod shop person, but unless you are gunning for a baupost or pershing square, the outcomes seem ok.
2. I've heard about people not getting placed past the Academy program, but cannot seem to find them on Linkedin. I don't mean to cast doubt, but am genuinely curious on what this significant minority is. I have also heard from analysts involved that the placement is 80-90+%(at least in the past 3 years). Considering how the Academy tends to take people with less traditional backgrounds, I think this is ok. Ofc, they could be biased, but IDK
3. This is a weird angle when it comes to the not knowing... I get that people are often unaware, but do you really think that they try to deceive people? I'd argue that the consulting firms and banks are far bigger culprits("day in the life of a Goldman sachs employee"), and are far more incentivized to do so.
Those places are sweatshops, so having people drink the kool-aid is important. No real risk is taken by hiring someone. In contrast hedge funds generally do not want to hire the wrong person because screwing up is so much more costly than the actual cost of hiring someone. Yes, they grind and push, but drinking the kool-aid is not to their advantage. Why would they want a growth equity bro with a "The TAM!" mindset, and way too much caffeine to influence a market-neutral, 5x levered portfolio?
I do think that there are other issues, such as having questionable culture, rep, and comp(I'd think of Tiger cubs vs Point72 as like Evercore/PJT vs Jefferies/RBC etc), but think that accusing them of crazy levels of deceptiveness is a bit much.
-just looking to have a conversation here
.
.
IB juniors tend to over-exaggerate the relevance of their job. Have a look at this thread: https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forum/hedge-fund/2022-multi-manager-cit…. Of course the IB interns and 1st/second year analysts keep defending banking, but 4/4 hedge fund portfolio managers who commented recommended taking the Point72 Academy over GS/MS/JPM IB.
del
All of you are missing the point. The problem is obviously they didn't like the op's defensiveness, not honesty. Requesting to “delete your file” when HR offered to consider you in the future confirms it. OP, have some humility
Almost every firm will say that
At that point, I felt like I'd rather have my complaint be taken seriously than take the less than 1% chance of actually being considered again.
Thanks for the great insight, prospect in IB
I think them saying they may consider him in the future is similar to how GS/MS tell every applicant they "recognize their outstanding work and will keep their file on hand in case any relevant position opens in the future" which is really a soft letdown for "not a fuckin' chance".
After the rigamarole they put him through, can't really expect any other response. However... that's the whole point. You have to suck it up and be polite and prove to them you are as cool as a cucumber and thank them for the opportunity just in case.
IDK. Very hard line to walk.
Sorry man, that really sucks.
The pretend to have COVID bit really cracked me up lmao.
Yeah just sounds like you failed the pressure tests where you're supposed to say "yeah I should've done this better..." in response to criticism.
Seniors at HFs are dicks when it comes to interviewing, who knew. If they actually decided not to take you in because of you not responding to a false statement perfectly, you wouldn't wanna work for them anyways.
While it seems you got treated bad, I am curious as to what you claimed on the resume with regard to your college level sports experience. It appears that may have set the stage for additional friction.
Sorry OP, that sucks and I have been through similar. Nearly twelve interviews with a name brand fund anyone would know which involved a week long case on an extremely complicated situation. Did well on the case, went on to interview with global heads / mgmt committee members and completed their background check and provided references. Couple weeks pass, get pinged by references they haven't heard anything. Inquire with firm, nothing. HH finally reaches out and said the firm had concerns with the case and decided to move on. Totally unbelievable, but shit happens. Unfortunately for you it sounds like you burned some goodwill at your current firm with the repeated days off and may have raised some red flags. However, seems you literally did about 99% of things right so I doubt you'll have a problem landing elsewhere.
That sucks but we do only have 1 side of the story.
You could've majorly fucked up in the end and we have no way of knowing.
Isn't point 72 run by a crook? I've only heard terrible things about them, and they don't even pay that well
didn’t OP say he was offered 400k for what seems like a relatively junior position? just curious what you think getting paid well means
That's great pay on an objective basis, but pretty standard for hedge fund junior offers. On the high-end would be high 6 fig or 7 fig salaries at one of the Tiger Cubs, and other quant funds like Citadel, DE Shaw, Two Sigma can easily match Point 72 offers but offer better prestige, better wlb (maybe not Citadel), and better benefits.
OP - I'm sorry that this process ended the way it did and think the reason they gave for not hiring you is pretty weak assuming there wasn't anything else that came up.
To offer some perspective as a current analyst at Point72, I can confirm the interview process is very drawn out (assume 8-10 interviews across a few months) and can definitely screw over the candidates who end up finishing 2nd or 3rd. The comments on the Academy are somewhat baked in truth but in reality most of the participants end up getting placed on great teams. Unfortunately, I have personally seen a few kids strike out and have to move back in with their parents since they're pigeonholed and not experienced enough to be competitive for other buyside openings at 22 y/o.
However, one of the comments above does make a good point about Point72 treating their analysts better than MLP or Citadel when it comes to internal replacement after a PM leaves or team blows up. The onerous hiring process involving interviews with multiple people outside of your team is a necessary evil to ensure that if something like this were to happen, then you could be placed onto another team internally relatively quickly. Point72 also has a pretty good track record of promoting their own analysts to PM if you can cut it and usually provide a longer leash compared to the other two MM's for what it's worth.
TLDR: Although it has its flaws, you could argue that Point72 is one the better places to start your career as an analyst given the resources your provided, internal hiring safety net, higher risk limits, and possible path to PM. The relative attractiveness of each MM definitely changes at the PM level but that's a separate conversation.
Agreed.
Thanks for the insight. Could you place a % number on how many from the academy end up placing? Have also heard it's been close to 90% in recent years. Also, how do academy graduates choose their pod? Is there a ranking of students in the academy, and top graduates get their pick first? Or are there multiple interviews with different PMs?
Have heard from recruiter it is near 90+% the kids that don’t take it often self select out
Don’t remember the exact number but a very high percentage (want to say it was 60%) of their analysts have been through the academy
There can be no greater indictment of any new grad program than this one. The P72 academy program hiring process is rigorous and competitive -- the people that get these jobs are smart, hardworking kids that went to top schools, got top grades, and did top extracurriculars. The fact that the program can chew up a bright student with the work ethic and intelligence to land a brand name buyside job out of undergrad and leave them sitting on their parents couch, unemployable is a huge, insurmountable red flag.
Most of these guys have taken this course with some former intelligence people that train analysts on how to interview management teams. One of the tactics is to make a false accusation and see how the person reacts - I haven’t taken the course, but I thought someone told me mad was bad. I would suspect it was a pressure test - whether you failed or whether the interviewer didn’t execute well who’s to say - or maybe it just clicked well - I've been in a similar situation with a different multi-manger where they did an exorbitant and work-disruptive number of rounds and cases including an offer letter only to get nixed by the equities head on a seemingly obnoxious brain teaser. On the other hand these guys are professional hirer’s and who’s to say their process is wrong. I imagine the PM is as frustrated as you are which probably doesn’t make you feel better but I wouldn’t hold it against the one who didn’t follow up - there are a lot of rules about official-channels and what must go thru HR all that jazz. Keep at it - if you made it that round you’re competitive anywhere and can find the right fit.
Yeah, I heard the same. SAC Capital/Point72 hired former CIA agents to teach their PMs how to read body language/tone to detect lies.
Screw those guys.
If getting mad over a false accusation is a red flag i don't want to work there.
Considering point 72 got to where it is today by being deceptive and doing illegal trades, they have no merit to play these stupid mind games.
OP, sorry to hear but welcome to the hedge fund world.
To start I did the same with brand name fund earlier in career, 5 phone interviews, full day on campus so on. Only to be told sorry some dude told head PM he didnt like your tie or so (personality clash). I had a decent amount of retained comp to consider so fine.
These firms need 100% buy-in cause reality is as you said TC is 400k and no way they letting you go before 2 years so that is a 800k commitment they are making and truly anyone who is average will survive two years easily. Next truly they are looking to hire people who will grow the firm one day, an 800k investment is nothing to sneeze at and one bad choice for a seat takes away from someone else. So understand this is why the process is lengthy and a bit crazy.
Now good part, this was your first time down the gaunlet. Understand your time is as important as theirs and you can always push back one stage another week or so, to not piss off your current boss. Many times these processes take weeks and months at times to be completed. So next time you are down the gauntlet prepare for a lengthy process.
The PM #1 sounds like they really like’d you and clearly you did well on the case studies. These firms are all sort of the same anyways, so losing out on this one doesn't mean you wont land next one. Many times you hear a firm has passed on a guy while years later they are somewhere else and former firm regrets it.
oh you sweet summer child
Haha…I get your point but truly 2 years is how long most people spend. That is not to say you are grinded to death, kicked in the head and basically after year 1 guarantee are already planning to move anyways.
Jesus, so sorry. Immediate primal reaction.. honestly would want to beat the fuck outta the senior
Will add one final note, in my experience interviewing with various shops most people in the HF do not act fake in the interview process. So if your initial reaction is "i would beat crap out of that guy" or "no way get rid of my resume". Then it is all for the best.
My guess this person treats the interviews the same way as a drawdown discussion, refactor, etc...
OP, you should delete this post. It is getting popular and has lots of self-identifying information. You do not want to get on the bad side of hr at a top MM HF. They know everyone.
Why shouldn't he shine a light on an opaque and negative experience? It's great for everyone else to learn from.
It's frankly a one-sided story. I would not be surprised if OP has a personality that the PM does not want to work with. Rigorous interviews and case studies are par for the course for this industry. At least HR called him to reject and didn't ghost like 90% of firms out there.
To those defending P72...you are seriously sick
By my count OP had:
- Wonderlic test
- 30 min modeling test
- Two interviews with two PMs
- Follow-up 1 hour interview with PM 1
- Case study with a 25-page write-up
- Follow-up meeting in person with PM 1
- Follow-up meeting on separate day with PM 2
- ANOTHER case study with PM 2
- Meeting with PM 2's team in the office
- Follow-up meetings with PM 1's senior guys
- Dinner and drinks with PM 2's team (which we all know is an interview)
All of which with good feedback along the way (they would have dinged him along the way if that wasn't the case)
The fact that this random guy at the end of the process was looking up a sports team roster from 5 years ago is borderline sociopathic. And for the defenders that say it is a pressure test, that is borderline sociopathic to do to this kid as well.
The fact that PM 2 doesn't even have the stones to respond to OP after all of that is pathetic and embarrasing (for him). They deserve to be put on blast
The reason why he was interviewed was they wanted his case studies. Free research.
P72 is a pathetic firm
GenERatING FacOTor AlpHA is PARADISE!
One of the most toxic VPs I used to work with left our bank for P72. Good riddance IMO.
P69. Because they like to screw over ppl so much.
I think you dodged a bullet.
So let me get this straight. You gave them 50 hours of free and good quality research and about 5 hours of interview time, and risked pissing off people at your current job. There was no reward at all. You would not want to work at a place like this that has no respect for you anyways OP.
Man if this is real, absolutely brutal. It’s amazing how many old people out there enjoying screwing people over for no reason. I’m not sure there are pearly gates we will all have to travel to, but it would be nice if there were and people had to explain themselves before entering heaven…like why would this guy wreck you unless he was jealous of your athletic ability?
Multiple rounds of buy-side interviews I get it but the way they used the varsity dropout reason to ding you after all the good work is totally messed up. They can just asked that in the first rounds to save everyone’s time. You dodged a bullet tbh.
Echoing above, delete this ASAP if you want to continue to pursue a career in this hell industry
Point72 is that you
You act like other managers give a fuck what P72 thinks. I’d give a candidate props if he told P72 to fuck off like he did and knew his story was true. Frankly I prefer hiring analysts who have the self-respect and confidence like OP, not some beta who who is too afraid to inform me I have a big blind spot/bias in my views because he’s more worried about confrontation.
I'm sorry but just because you did a case study and got drinks with some team members doesn't entitle you to a job. When hiring managers hire new members for their teams they are making multi-year commitments and there is way more downside to a bad hire than there is upside for a good hire. No one is disrespecting your time - for the 3 interviews you might be doing concurrently, PMs are talking to tens if not hundreds of candidates. There needs to be some way to whittle down the candidate pool and if you don't feel like it's worth your time to go through the process then don't do it - nothing is guaranteed just pick up your head and keep interviewing rather than complaining.
*
Not to be a dick but I don’t really believe this. You chose to take work off for a bunch of 1 hour interviews? The people you’re interviewing with understand that you have a current job and I would say the vast majority want you to do right by your current employer because they know the industry is very small and that things don’t alway work out as intended. As such, I’m sure they’d have been flexible in scheduling interviews before open, after close, during lunch, etc so that there were relatively minimal interruptions to you and your current situation. I also have a hard time believing they wouldn’t allow you to do a video call if needed either which you could have stepped into a conference room to handle. There was no need for you to take multiple days off (except maybe one for the case study). That shows poor judgement/lack of critical thinking skills imo.
Not sure I believe a senior person dinged you bc they couldn’t find you on a roster either but they might have googled you and then been confused why you weren’t on there. Generally though, PMs have a lot of discretion to make the final call so either the PM isn’t that well established and/or you really pissed the sr guy off. Or it’s fake but not sure what you’d have to gain from making up a story like that so idk.
OP's banana / post ratio is insane. Mirin
Does anyone know what to include on the "Notes to the Hiring Manager" section of the Point72 Academy application?
why would they care if you were on a sports team?
Thanks for exposing P72. Sounds like they already found somebody else, or didn't want to hire, and used that irrelevant detail as an excuse. Happens often. I have been through a similar situation, albeit not as bad. Or the PM had a bad day (dumped by his wife or gf, etc.) and wanted to use his power against you.
Also, do you live in a different city from this team? Why the need to take off entire days for every little meeting? Maybe try to combine meetings, ask to use weekends/nights/zooms, etc. to reduce risk of burning goodwill at current role.
But I feel for you, esp all the brain damage you endured to do those case studies... such bs.
I experienced EXACTLY the same at Point72!
My application was fast tracked as I had outstanding offers, then I had to ask current managers for references as I am fresh out of College (very uncomfortable).
After six interviews with senior PMs and country heads, all with very positive feedback, I was simply told that I did not have enough institutional equity experience. The company showed no remorse for dragging me through months of grueling interviews, case studies and reference checks, only to drop me for something they clearly saw from the offset. This was an obvious bs excuse.
IMO, the dishonest culture of the crook founder has been embedded in the firms culture. Be aware, I spoke with other fund managers at highly reputable HFs/AMs (think Millennium, Man, Jupiter) and they all said that they would not be comfortable hiring someone from Point72.
Steer clear - lots and lots of red flags
rigorous and very drawn out interview process seems to be the norm at p72, but your last point seems hard to believe after checking exits from Point72 on linkedin
Yes, long and drawn out is expected for a top job but shoddy treatment should not be. To your last point, I guess it is down to PM preference and their personal interactions with P72.
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