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Most important thing you value in your analyst(s)? Particularly junior ones
When did you feel you were ready to take risk? How much does the job change as you go from pitching ideas to PM to running a sleeve?
Thank you!
At the junior level the single most important thing is the willingness to run through walls. Stock picking can be taught or at the very least everyone has a skill set that can be useful towards stock picking.
But the hunger to be fully engaged with your PM who calls you at 4AM to figure out whether he is too long or short a sector, to revisit a position as you get thesis creep, or who wants you to email and call every industry contact to understand why a stock is moving the way it is - requires a special type of person.
Running risk is also a muscle that can be taught. Most high quality firms will make that jump incremental rather than revolutionary.
Being a PM is difficult mostly because you have to retain and develop talent. Most people who become PMs are good at stock picking. Most people who fail as a PM do so because they don’t know how to manage people.
Agree with everything you said. Unfortunately from my personal experience, the type of associate that is willing and able to wake up at 4am to answer a PM’s call is only 10-20% of the whole population.
Probably top 20 all time comments on the HF forum. You guys are benefitting from some serious knowledge/experience.
Ugh I don’t want to do that. Why is everyone in finance obsessed with working hard, it doesn’t seem like working hard consistently has to be that linked to strong monetary outcomes. I’m on the “path” rn though just took vp promotion and 90% of the hard work I’ve observed has been completely pointless. Though I guess hf people will say ib/PE hard work is stupid deal monkey process vs. actual investing. Maybe I should do something entrepreneurial, at least that eventually might get to a place where I don’t have to work so much to have a lot of money
Interesting
Anyway, on a more serious note - expecting your analysts to wake up at 4am just so you can talk to them about risk is psychotic
Do you still believe this is a good long-term career path for new juniors amidst the rise of AI and fee compression?
It’s difficult for me to predict the way the job is going to evolve on the back of technology over the next decade. But it has always been the case that the people in this business have had to adapt to changing circumstances. If you are expecting to generate alpha via an avenue that can be pulled up in 10 seconds using a LLM then this is not the job for you. Every high quality investment professional should be instead utilizing LLMs to help automate the commoditized parts of the process in order to spend more time on unique thought and research.
Fee compression while obviously is observable at the overall level, the distribution of payouts for those who out punch performance and those who don’t are wider than ever.
1) How much of your strategy/ process comes from just the amalgamation of everything that’s already out there and that is already taught (value, growth, explainers on pod style, etc.), but then applied in a very rigorous + tight + comprehensive framework, or was there an “X factor” that came from mentorship from others?
Ex: you can see any pitch on any stock, like xyz seat growth may be 5% above estimates next quarter and multiple is still flat and lower vs. peer could be a good relative long this quarter. Everyone knows what these basic theses look like, but was there something else in the process or way of looking at things that you never would have learned otherwise?
2) you hear a lot about “trading the market that’s in front of you” these days. Do you feel that your approach has had change over last few years or not at all?
3) biggest lesson about investing you’ve learned from a mistake you’ve made in the past?
4) if you could invest in any style or framework (here is $50mn and go wild), what do you think that would look like and why?
1) xyz seat growth being 5% above expectations is just one data point. What does that and the entire mosaic in your process tell you about how the market needs to be perceiving this company’s terminal value? You can wrap variant fundamental analysis into any risk framework you want, but at the end of the day its fundamentals that should drive the meat of the decision making.
2) it comes down to what kind of market environment you are in and this is where having the experience and reps is useful in managing tapes. Some tapes require multi step forward thinking. Some tapes require you to be calibrated no further than 1 step ahead. Having as many tools in the tool box to navigate multiple different market environments is key.
3) keep it simple stupid.
4) given how much personal exposure I have to my current framework, it is de facto this one. I think this is probably the highest skill cap public investing job that exists.
Bonus question if you’re open to it (thanks a bunch by the way)
What’s the biggest stumbling block for analysts / PMs who don’t make it?
Presumably, most people at this level are smart, understand the game, are hard working, etc.
What do you think separates those who make it from those who don’t?
I find it weird how everyone in finance is always looking for “that mentorship bro.” Like of course you should search for mentors in every aspect of life but at the end of the day you have to build on what has been laid before you. That’s how you win in any endeavor.
It goes without saying that you have to work with what’s laid out in front of you. But I wouldn’t underestimate how powerful mentors can be. This is an experience game in many ways.
Why do so many get "stuck" trying to scale a book $500M? What's the difference between those that can make $ and survive on a small book and those that can run > $2B?
Edit: also curious what kind of years if you've had PnL wise if you don't mind.
You can run half a yard by yourself. Under a MM risk mandate running $2B+ requires a lot more moving pieces - the biggest being multiple analysts. Developing, retaining, incentivizing a team is very very difficult. I know someone who is running a close to $10B. As you can imagine that’s basically running a firm with multiple levels of hierarchy. Not easy and not for everyone.
Best year 40%+ levered (3-4x) net of fees. Worst +hsd%. And everything in between.
What's been the most "out there" background you've seen of anyone who ended up being even moderately successful at a MM.
I did a few university recruiting sessions for a major MMHF. As you can imagine I’ve seen all sorts of backgrounds. There was one kid that I remember who told me that he had never taken a finance course, but had written a paper on an obscure subject matter that had major investment implications in the healthcare sector. We proceeded to talk for nearly an hour about it. I sent his resume through and my firm at the time hired him a few months later.
What’s the best way to meet people in the space? Any must attends (i.e. JPM Healthcare conference)?
How open are multi managers to people who have 5+ years on the sellside? Would you recommend staying in the same industry vertical when recruiting for buyside?
I don’t really view relative age as a major enabler or inhibitor of recruitment into the buyside inherently. To me, if you’ve never been on the buyside you are junior and should expect to have to learn the ropes and pay your dues like everyone else not because of nonsense hierarchy or structure but because the job has a big learning curve. If you haven’t updated 50+ models over 10 earnings seasons like juniors are trained to do (these are illustrative numbers) you don’t have the model etched into your brain to make split second decisions when the pressure is on. If you’ve never experienced your largest position going against you 20% on an outcome that wasn’t even in your bingo card, you won’t know how to recognize the signs to prevent that down the line.
But age can sometimes embed bad habits or an inflexible mindset.
Sellside experience can be leveraged into some of these skill sets.
Sector expertise is not a pre-requisite for a junior role if you are willing to be junior. It is a pre-requisite if you want to be senior.
Thank you in advance for doing this.
How would you describe your expectations for a junior analyst on your team to ramp on a 3/6/12 months timeline. What does the ramping process look like and what are some best practices on ramping up on a new sector/name?
Everyone's development curve is different so expectations have to be set differently. I'm a big believer in it being the PM's job to maximize his or her junior's natural inclinations and so bespoke investment into the person is required. I also think more in terms of years as in my experience, it doesn't click for most analysts until they are likely 18-24 months into the job.
At the very basic level, maintenance and ongoing coverage of at least 25 companies is ideal by that time as that is probably the minimum idea velocity needed to manage a reasonable vol for the overall book.
The ramping process is understanding how the company works and it's history, what irons they have in the fire, and what pond they play in. And then understanding the stock - how it trades, what people think, and what's priced (yes the company and stock are two different things). It's all about talking to as many people as you can and a ton of reading and analysis.
As per title, I am currently in a LO junior buy side credit research role. I consider this to be an untraditional background for covering equities at MM HF. Let’s say I, or someone like me, wants to network with someone like you (or a junior/senior analyst) to create a relationship for down the road. How do I do this in such a way that you’d respond and be willing to chat? resume and write-up? Would you even talk to someone that’s not an alum of your school? Would you be more inclined to see a well-researched short or long? Does catalyst have to be within 6 months? Also, more general advice, do you you think 2 years on sell-side in IB or ER is too foundational to have skipped if I want to work at a MM?
You can create a ton of relationships by reaching out to investment professionals on linkedin with a write up that has the bones of useful analysis. Any good PM is always on the hunt for new talent and most recognize how flawed the traditional recruiting system is as incentives are often not aligned. I don't see how where you went to school really matters as long as its reasonable.
This is a great question. Catalysts are extremely important. The quick answer is no, it does not have to be within 6 months. However, a few things I'll say. 1) Most great ideas are littered with multiple catalysts that lead into a big one multiple months or years out. 2) There are more good ideas than great ones so catalyst timing will always vary. 3) For the PM, the key is to understand the components of the book and what each component requires as far as time horizon for monetization so that there is a balance.
Thank you for making this post; reading your response to me as well as to others has given me a bunch to think about and I hope I can do the same one day for others. I wish you nothing but happiness, health, and wealth.
thoughts on this? do you think every kid in college wanting to get into MMHFs should develop their CS skills as well?
Not OP, but coding shouldn't be the focus point. Modelling and learning how to pitch stocks etc should be the focus, i.e the foundational skills.
Coding is a plus and lets you scale more efficiently as an analyst, especially with data/news pulls.
GOATed intern post of an absolutely useless table of data is GOATed
Career advice for a fresh college grad going into IB but is certainly he wants a MMHF seat? What should I be doing to prepare outside of work?
Be inquisitive to the world around you. And if you want this job make sure you totally understand what the job actually is. You’d be surprised how many people who want to do this, but don’t actually understand what the job entails on a day to day basis.
Quant/systematic is just a completely different strategy to mine so I can't really comment. Most MM HFs recognize that multi-strategy done right can maximize sharpe.
Could you please take a look at my latest post and give me some advice?
I'm an MD wanting to switch careers - end goal is to end up in a HF doing L/S
Do the work on a company and stock and send that write up to the PMs you find on LinkedIn.
Began my career being told constantly that I was really talented but have been laid off multiple times due to drawdowns / sector blow-ups and my resume shows a lot of scar tissue. my previous PMs all have good things to say - do you have any advice? at what point would you hang up your spurs / go sell-side? Worried about getting too old to be a junior (still under 7 yrs of experience, but first 6 yrs covered a totally different sector))
Got into this business bc I love the job and can see nothing else I'd do with myself - money not an issue but this job market has been really frustrating
There are weeks and months when I’ve banged my head against the wall one too many times that I ask myself why I chose this path. I get it. I don’t think there is inherently anything wrong with the sellside as long as you know who you are and enjoy the work for what it’s worth. If hanging it up is not for you then get back in the saddle. Thats’s all there is to it. But learn from the mistakes. Is it timing? Is it thesis creep? Is it not being in the flow enough? Is it a coverage problem? Is it a crowding problem? Is it a lack of understanding positioning problem? Is it a sizing / breadth problem? Is it a missing the forest for the trees or vice versa problem? Figure out the problem(s) and fix it. As for the age comment. I know someone who is over 50 and just joined to be a mid level analyst at another firm. Keep your head up.
This is really encouraging, thanks. First 2 HF roles I was in for about 2 years combined, fired once and team blew out (IB/PE before). Have done a lot of post-mortem work and I think I want another bite at the apple but need to make sure I don’t waste time with a third bad PM esp now that I’m in my 30s. Good to know that I’m not getting too old, I’m a grinder so not afraid to put in the time - been a bit difficult to find a seat where Im more than a model monkey but less than a sr analyst I think in part because my coverage is somewhat esoteric.
Now I’m rambling so I’ll just stop - appreciate the ama and paying it forward.
What's the size of the pod you are running, and can you please give a history of how it has scaled up to this point? Thanks.
I would rather keep it vague but it’s somewhere between $1 and $5B. I started with a multi hundred million sleeve as an analyst and grew methodically until I spun out. And as I added talent on an as needed basis we continued to grow. But again, I want to stress that it’s more about being self aware with your own bandwidth and skillset. Some people are happy running $500M because you don’t have to manage people. Clip a bonus every year and go play golf. Some people are happy with $2B and refuse to take more - too much headache. Some people aren’t happy until they are running basically their own firm. Once you’ve established a track record and repeatable process, capital is frankly unlimited at the major firms, but bandwidth isn’t.
Thanks for doing this.
For us, we look at it from multiple different angles. 1) quantitative stress testing valuation, 2) observing how different situations impacted that stock over the history of its life cycle. 3) comparatively to sell-side consensus views. 4) comparatively to your buyside network across different strategies (HF, LO).
I try to simplify it down to exactly what it is we were playing for and whether that is indeed playing out or not + what the game plan was. If your process is tight you should have a paper trail (write ups, previews, maintenance updates) to keep yourself accountable. That paper trail should also include what the stops are and where you could go wrong and what the game plan is in different scenarios. Then you can decide whether you should be sizing up into a position going against you or whether you should cut it. The same thing applies if a position goes your way. Are you being disciplined to the game plan that was set out prior. Are you over earning or are you monetizing a win just because you're afraid you'll give it back despite the process pointing to a size up into a position that has gone your way 20%. Assuming you haven't hit a drawdown trigger, risk departments should not be influencing your decision making. Ultimately you need to follow your own pre-determined game plan.
I would think so, yes. More than what most people do.
Every year we are peak whatever strategy was working before. That is the game. Your process cannot be static and you have to evolve ahead of the changing landscape.
thank you for the helpful response, 1 follow-ups + a few more questions (if you're willing!):
PS. I am more than willing to take calls at 4am and run through walls in-case you're hiring :)
Do PMs actually read pitches hopeful laterals send them on LinkedIn? Miss rate seems quite high for me. Have resorted to trying to figure out their emails based on their names 🤣
I personally read them all eventually. But there’s no point in responding if it’s not good.
As an intern in one of the MMHF grad programs, what’s the best way to identify top PMs to work for that are going to ultimately help you develop a strong replicable process early on? Experience overall seems really hit or miss depending on the PM so wanted to know best way to prioritize various teams.
Ability to scale multiple juniors into seniors and into PMs is probably one of the biggest tells of a repeatable process that is customizable to multiple different sub-sectors. But working for a team that doesn’t have full evidence of that shouldn’t be a deal breaker. Every PM has something you can learn. The process part you might have to shoulder your own development more however.
As someone currently on the sell-side, what are some things I should focus on that you've seen successful younger analysts do? Reading research, pitching stocks to myself, and creating my own models is great but not many people on my floor looks at stocks the same way people do on the buy-side.
The way the buyside looks at stocks isn’t rocket science. It’s just that it’s way more involved usually because it’s your livelihood. But I’ve seen write ups on various websites done by retail traders that would embarrass an actual HF analyst. There really is no excuse. It’s all doable and can be figured out if you really actually put the thinking into it.
Lol some of the retail memos are actually better than some of the notes we write, so totally get that. If I could ask one follow up, how would you go about networking? I know it might sound like a dumb question but networking feels so different when I was in undergrad vs full time. Any insight into how to network successfully? Is it the same 1) LinkedIn message -> phone call -> send some pitches to build a reputation -> pray they remember your name next time an opening pops up? Or does reaching out to headhunters play out better?
Hello, thank you for doing this!! I am currently interviewing with a few different PMs across different funds and have the following questions:
Thank you once again!
1) Someone who i can actually trust that the analysis is in a safe set of hands. That the boxes have been checked. But that is reserved for my most senior guys who have been with me 3-5 years where i might ask 1-2 high level questions these days about a pitch, but there is very little friction of idea gen to position especially given we are specialists who have a ton of history with our names to begin with. At the junior level we have to be realistic. The junior is likely receiving more mentorship than they are contributing for the first 18-24 months.
2) I don't think it matters a ton whether you are a specialist or generalist as long as you are happy with that style. In both situations you have to constantly be on the hunt for new ideas and angles and learn how to go deeper when necessary. But most MMHF L/S in the US are going to be specialists mostly because the sectors in the US are usually quite deep compared to say in Europe where there are way less tradeable big companies. Basically everyone in Europe is a generalist.
3) MMHFs have flatter hierarchy, tighter risk limits, more positions than the directional HFs do in general. Both places are great to work in.
4) Rock solid process over time can be proven via in depth pnl decomposition. Breadth of pnl, hit rate, slugging, catalyst driven pnl, idiosyncratic pnl relative to style, market, country pnl, etc. Every high quality firm dissects this. It's not as guess work as you are suggesting.
5) No one is pigeonholed if you are willing to learn the ropes again, in my view.
Thank you - that is extremely helpful.
There are loads of sector specialists in Europe at the MMHFs, so I'm a bit confused by this comment - have I misunderstood what you mean?
Best and worst comp year as an analyst vs PM and what may have explained that?
Correlated to crowding?
I would rather be vague, but perhaps contrary to what most might believe, I can tell you my worst compensation year was as a PM, not as an analyst. Analyst compensation generally aggregates towards the mean. PM compensation is more a sliding scale between a slim year and an outstanding year. PMs who take down the entire bonus pool and don't pay their people will not be able to retain those people for very long. I'm not sure what you are asking re. crowding.
What're your favorite materials for general reading and idea generation? Also any places you enjoy getting reading pitches from?
I read alot. Sellside research (despite what seems to be a general underappreciation of it on this forum) is useful to me assuming you know how and when to use it. Industry press is very important to me. As far as actual pitches go, I don't systematically read stuff that isn't ours but I will take a gander through VIC or WSB here or there.
Appreciate the answer -- I know you're a bit bombarded with questions, but as a follow-up:
In all that reading, how do you differentiate what's more ceremonial/fluff vs what actually will move the stock/inform your thesis? Is it just intuition that comes with experience?
Understand the pitch is one of the most important aspects when interviewing, but how much weight is put on a candidates background? Ex-IB in distressed debt / restructuring and always wanted to do L/S equity. However, joined current spot to get more technical reps and hopefully to have an edge coming from a unique background, but now worried about being pigeonholed into credit.
It doesn't matter a ton to me assuming you can do the work, but that's me. One of the best PMs I know was ex-credit.
Apologies if this was asked already, but what are some good questions to ask a PM you are interviewing with to find out if they will really be a good mentor/teacher and fair with comp? And if their performance is sustainable
No different than trying to figure out if you are looking at a good or bad company.
Would you prefer hiring someone from a LO or the sell-side? Assuming same years of experience and somewhat even comp expectations?
As a manager, when you hire someone from a buy side role, how do you balance giving them autonomy/investment decision m capabilities similar to what they had at their previous role with getting them familiarized with your specific process?
Doesn't matter a ton to me. But that's me.
Great question. I'm assuming you are framing this as someone who joins my team and is already very senior. I know that my own process is not the end all be all. And that person should understand that theirs isn't either. There are many different ways to create alpha. Ideally we would learn from each other. But in each situation there has to be one decision maker - likely delegated to the person who has the most experience in that circumstance. If the tape is falling apart and the industry is experiencing degrossing/macro regime change that person has to understand that his/her ideas will get pushed around by me, because I've likely seen more cycles than that person. If we are headed into a sector specific catalyst that person has seen more times than I have, I have to understand how to delegate decision making.
From your perspective, is it smarter for new analysts to go after a seat with the PM that has the best track record/reputation, even if it's not their previous sector (but they still find interesting)?
Or is it more beneficial for the new analyst to continue working in their previous sector with a less experienced PM, given their established network and years of experience with keeping a daily pulse on the coverage universe (and possibly play a more critical role in the pod)?
These kinds of decisions aren’t black and white. It depends on what you want and your circumstances.
If I was just starting out I would probably choose the former because this job can be lonely. When you are sucking wind and you don’t know what you’re doing wrong - it can feel helpless. Having someone there who has seen it before to give you direction is great. I’m also someone who finds most things in life interesting so I don’t really have a sector preference.
If my process was more developed - I would prefer to have more impact. And rebuilding into a new sector takes a lot of time and effort.
How much of being successful at the job is developing strong relationships (externally) i.e. with management, industry experts, sell-side, fellow buy-siders? What's worked for you in cultivating them?
Do you think shorting is a more important part of the job given more number of positions and higher idea velocity. How did you improve on this aspect when you initially joined the buy-side from the sell-side? What's been most useful for you to get better at your shorts?
How do you think about position sizing? How much of it is gut vs having a structured process?
Thank you so much!
How do you differentiate between skill vs. luck ?
I think i answered the question in a prior comment above. Beyond the quantitative breakdown, you look yourself in the mirror and be honest.
what if the historical data set is luck?
I see a lot of people talk about "strong process" or "repeatable process"
How similar / dissimilar are most processes from each other across the landscape. Feels like everyone is doing the same thing from the outside...
I am hyper hyper generalizing here for brevity, I know a lot more goes into all of this. But what makes someone better or worse at this process? Just raw brute force work, discipline, and intellectual honesty?
Also I could be totally leaving out the mountains of other stuff... Like super detailed analysis of factors, changing your factor bets or budget for diff. factors, etc. Idk again I'm a relative noob here!
No, it's a good question. Reading the framework you laid out, you seem to have a good understanding of how an idea might be measured or potentially monetized. Those are basic mechanics that require hard work and brute force, to your point.
But what about the idea itself? How is the world changing and how are the companies positioned within it? How can we identify what is happening or could happen and how its happening and how meaningful it is? I don't see that most important part in your comment.
What was your single biggest earning year? What’s your lifetime earnings in the HF business and ax how many years?
Hi - thanks for all the answers. I'm an undergrad - recently had a call with a MM PM. I mentioned some research I'm conducting which is very unconventional, but interesting, and yielding promising results. PM responded v.positively (asked me to make a memo) and said superstar (or just generally good) PMs like out of the box ideas and consider anything that grabs their interest.
Would it be feasible/what would it take for a junior in a team to introduce a new strategy straight out of the gate? How can someone get their strat to even be considered in the first place?
Those are my naive questions to you. Thanks.
Coming to the crossroads at my career at an SM as a principal/mid-senior analyst, not really much mobility for me to become a sector head...how do you recommend transitioning to the MM model? My biggest hold up is joining the "right pod" as it seems like the best grounds for learning the MM risk model. For context, my skillset is generalist stockpicking.
Any advice on selling research products / services to hedge funds? I was looking to start a business to do this and was wondering what approaches / price points / types of services / types of consultants you personally find the most useful.
are there any specific substacks or journalists that you read? or podcasts?
What advice would you give for analysts with tough PMs once it comes to comp?
I’m 17 and just graduated high school. I already know 99% that I want to go down the HF path and am currently interning at a L/O fund as pretty much equity research analyst using bloomberg terminal will be pitching a stock or 2 by the end of this short internship. Do you have any advice for someone like me who knows they want to go down this path very early to differentiate myself and maximize my chances of breaking in and/or being a top performer.
Another question, is it beneficial to start focusing on one coverage group now (potentially years out from when i’d be starting) to really hone in my skill set on one specific area.
Thanks in advance.
Shoot me a message.
Shoot me a message.
I’m junior at Wellington/Capital and I’m thinking about trying to join a pod because my peers are paid twice more than me.
Do you think it’s a mistake and I should focus on long term?
Is it possible to scale into an additional sub-sector (within your sector) that you, as a PM, haven't covered before, with a junior analyst? (If so, how would you go about it?) Or do you definitely need a senior analyst who knows the sector well (assume you don't have a prior work history with the senior analyst)?
In other words, assuming one person (PM or senior analyst) has the bandwidth of covering max. 50 names in detail, as you scale from 50 to 100 / 150 names, you need to be more high-level, yet in the beginning, you may not have the budget to hire a senior analyst for the high-quality work required such that it would allow you to be high-level. So how do you solve for that dilemma?
I'm in college and got an offer for a full-time gig at a single manager L/O platform. Any chance I can shoot you a message to get your insight/advice?
Impossible and/or not worth it to get started past a certain age? eg early 30s with a successful career adjacent to the industry (consulting)... possible to break in and have a successful career?
How much weight do you give the macro economic vs. stock specific considerations? Obviously most of the research is bottoms up and focussed on individual names, but how much do you let macro forecasts, interest rate expectations, etc. influence your decisions?
What are some preferred routes to get to where you are? ER to analyst at a HF or do you recommend IB to HF? HF is my end goal so any advice helps
what are your thoughts on someone with AM public investing internship background moving into L/S HFs, especially cross border from APAC to US? - not sure how much skills are transferable because APAC market is v different from North America
This issuch a self-centred question, but can I get into L/S from a non-target? Or even ER? I’ll be doing the Uni of Edinburgh MSc Fin and investment course
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