Would they still be the GOATs today? And WTF can you do now?

Abt fter spending aeons reading/listening/watching all the GOATs in this industry, a question that keeps coming up in my head is would they be able to repeat their performance today. Buffett and Munger have proved themselves, but particularly when it comes to hedge funds, guys like Soros and all the people you see in Market Wizards, do yall think they could repeat today what they did decades ago, especially with the amount of chart reading and technical analysis they did back then and how unsophisticated everything was in general?

Which leads to the broader question of, according to this community, what are people in general even expected to do now on the buyside to make it to the top? The dirty fucking prestige route of IB—>PE—>SMHF is not a thing becomes SMs are past their primes and the best seats are basically impossible to achieve. Based on the latest MFPE returns none are doing too well and there’s no upward trajectory anyway so that’s not really an option. VC is a dead asset class, all the big funds are expanding their mandate to try and keep up their returns. PC is past its golden age and has started showing its cracks in full form

That leaves hopping onto to an UMM PE firm and hoping they smash fund after fund or just surviving in the MM HF space?

So what else is one expected to do?

EDIT: How did this entire fucking post become about Buffett and his infidelity

50 Comments
 

Interesting that you brought up market wizards, I believe a lot of ppl in that boom made money using trend following back when it worked well. So maybe not replicable today.

I have actually met one of the guys featured in that boom recently and can see why he is successful. Not so much the investing style but the extremely high level of intellectual curiosity. 

 

Exactly but does that level of intellectual curiosity translate to the same returns even 50% of the time?

 

I suspect if that person were the same age as us today, he probably would have found a niche area to make money in or got ahead of a major innovation wave like AI. 

If you are curious who that person is, I’ll give you a hint. Other traders interviewed in the book referenced him :)

 

Wdym, even back then there were too many ppl who started following trends so the number of false signals just made it impossible, fundamental analysis is the only way to get good returns over the LT

 

The original comment wasn’t meant to attack trend following, of course it can still work today, albeit you need a really sophisticated set-up to attract institutional backing since the easy stuff is widely known already. 

Challenge with trend following is in a market that whipsaws such as this year it just gets killed. But 2022 was fantastic for trend following. Top traders unplugged is an especially good podcast resource to stay up to date with trend following

 

Would it not be fair to compare BRK to a 60/40 portfolio to account for the cash balance?

 

Many fund managers would not be able to replicate the same results they got before.

The other thing worth pointing out is that hedge funds and PE in the 80s/90s were WAY more wild west than they are now. Now they are long established "safe" industries.

That's why you read so many stories of some of these old guys just walking into the building and getting a job...

Because they are now so old...alpha is going away adn the ability to make disgusting amounts of money is going away too.

Where is the new frontier? :)

 
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The frontier is all the places you don’t want to go and in the jobs that don’t exist. Your job exists to make the market more efficient. So if there are no jobs to fix some "problem" it stands to reason that there will be more inefficiency. And, also, if there is a lot of demand to do a certain job due to high pay or prestige, it is far less likely that an inefficiency will remain. Kind of basic supply and demand. 

You can sort of think of the attractiveness of strategies or approaches the way Peter Lynch or a deep value guy might think about stocks. If a stock is kind of lame, hated, scandalous or unpleasant to invest it, maybe there's more likely to be value there? It's not a sufficient condition, but it sure is a hint about where you might want to look. Similarly, strategies can work the same way. 

It’s not like all the losers are actually winners or some silly cope like that but I would say I do think the “hidden” opportunities you are looking for are in fact hidden because you simply do not want to consider these opportunities. Or, it may be economically unattractive or unscalable to hire anyone for much of the time. Again, it's not like every shitty job is a good job. But every Warren Buffett started out doing something kind of shitty. That doesn't mean every rich person or "successful" person started out doing that - but the people with insane alpha did I think since alpha comes from solving an inefficiency others didn't want to solve. (In some sense it's sort of like the innovators dillemma  -- why can a new entrant beat the mighty incumbent? It's because the new entrant does something that the incumbent finds unattractive in the near-term for some reason.) 

If you think of all the great investors a lot of them were sort of losers in some sense for a long time. Buffett was not on the path of prestige and got rejected from HBS. He invested in companies that truly were retardedly obvious like American Express at 4x PE. If you look back at the case studies, you will think "fuck he makes it seem simple." No - it actually was that simple. No sh*t value investing works when you can buy AXP at 4x PE

But think of how shitty and unsexy it was to be Buffett. Back then you had to get PHYSICAL COPIES of  filings walking uphill both ways to some library or something. Calculating a ratio between a few numbers is extremely hard when everything is on paper and you are using a slide rule or maybe a hand calculator. When you really step through it, how would you even stay organized? Imagine if your investment workbook was like a pen and paper notebook from school. Remember how hard it was to keep all that shit organized? You can't control F or anything. I’m sure at some point he got a computer but even then early computers could barely do anything. Buffett had those opportunities back then because doing the simplest stuff we take for granted today was actually very hard. This man did this stuff LITERALLY BY HAND.

Literally think about how lame he was. He probably had friends that went to HBS and worked at whatever was prestigious at the time. Think of how lame you would feel talking to your successful friends banging the hottest women. Probably they would spend most of their day doing cool sounding stuff But nope Buffett lived in Omaha NEBRASKA. Have you ever seen this place? Try it sometime. He had a very unattractive and plain wife and did not get to cycle through a harem of finance groupies on Hinge from a penthouse apartment. It is understandable he would later get a mistress. HE WAS CALCULATING THIS STUFF BY HAND. Insane. Truly requires someone built different, but also to be built differently, probably your payoffs and how you get joy has to be different. He probably just really liked it. Yes, he was a genius. Yes, he was remarkably talented. But so were a lot of people. But how many people would want to live in a shitty house in Omaha? 

Just think for a moment about Buffett describing what he did. "Bro what I do is I calculate some ratios. Basically, what I do is I divide two numbers. You may have heard of this - division. In fact, long division sometimes. But often I find that to do this division, I have to make a couple adjustments here and there. What's annoying is getting the numbers - I have to get on a bike and go look at some microfiche machine to look at the numbers. Basically, after that it's like a word problem. You may have done these before. I have to add things to other things and sometimes I do subtraction too." Think of how lame that sounds. He wasn't doing some complex shit but he was doing something very painful. Note he DID NOT have many or any juniors.  He did the 1st grade math himself tirelessly. And he had an ugly wife and lived in Omaha. 

Think of how much more badass it would be to instead "make operational improvements" to "add value."  Look firing people works in PE. When it isn't the dead simple firing people, often it is kind of retarded IMHO. Did Buffett do the "operational improvements"? No. He had the humility to know that how much money you make has nothing to do with how smart or talented you are and he is not "smarter" than the people who run any high quality great American businesses. The people who run a business are better at it than you as an investor - leave them alone even if it feels "sexy" to do these retarded "operational improvements." Sure are there examples of some funds that are great at this? Yes, but anyone who is an operator thinks you are a clown 80% of the time even if you are ok at it 20% of the time. Buffett didn't do it just because it was cool. He just did what he knew works. 

These opportunities exists in other places and it’s what I’m personally very interested in. But you can’t get jobs looking at this I don’t think. Or if you do they won’t pay well because probably the places are much smaller in AUM and/or if you work there you won’t have much career flexibility which will reduce your wages (since your employer knows you can’t easily leave). FWIW I don’t actually work at citadel but worked at a fund that actually has far, far better than early Warren Buffet like returns but with an ultra niche strategy that nobody else does. It made it utterly miserable to get a job after. What if you don't like your boss? If a lot of people are not doing an attractive strategy there is a REASON for that. And whatever that reason is is probably terrible for your own career prospects. Note that these "successful" people often had TINY teams in their period of success. Often it was just a few people. Why? Because this stuff is unpleasant often because there are elements that are unpleasant precisely because do not scale. 

Another reason why it was lame to be Warren Buffett: he didn't hire anyone to do his bitchwork. He did it himself, especially in his periods of greatest success. Why? Because that's what worked. 

To a lesser extent the podbois 10 years ago were an example of this too. When I finished my banking stint basically people thought working at citadel was far lower tier than any reasonable single manager. I turned down an offer at Citadel empty handed simply because I wanted to work at a Tiger fund. Now look at how the tables have turned. In retrospect, my life would have been far better if I actually did work at Citadel but you live and you learn. In fact, the friend I had that intro'd me to the group where I got an offer is literally the richest mf I know. Last time I spoke to him he told me "Being successsful is nice, you should try it sometime." When I met with them, his team was a bunch of weird autists and seemed unprestigious. 

In this case I basically do think that the elite prop funds are the modern example of a case where prestige and actual high returns do overlap. But aside from this, basically the same sort of stuff that Buffett had access to is in any asset class that is massive, sort of new, hard to access, annoying, and unattractive to the most talented people due to a lack of scale.


 

 

2 points - the way you speak about inefficiency, do you believe that’s there’s a finite amount of alpha and we’re gonna consume it all in the equity markets at some point in the near future after which the EMH will kick in and then public markets are done for or did I misinterpret ur point?

Secondly, what are some of these niche strategies that nobody else is looking at it if u don’t mind me asking? (though I have a sneaky feeling u will mind)

 

There are a million examples but there just aren't really jobs doing this. Which is the whole point. It doesn't matter if I tell you because the whole point is you probably wouldn't want to do it anyway even if you were certain I wasn't full of BS. This is what I mean when I say it is an innovators dillemma - the incumbents don't do this because it actually just looks lame and unattractive at the time (even if it is high alpha). 

As a single example, try to find the Bill Ackman or Warren Buffett or George Soros of India. What you will find is that there isn't one. However, there is a lot of dispersion, so in theory a long-short strategy will work there. Yes, you will find Western investors that want to seem on the frontier, but they invest only in the most liquid companies in India. Instead, if you read country-specific forums and websites you will find that investment heroes almost exclusively trade what we would refer to in the US as "penny stocks". There actually simply is no equivalent to the Warren Buffetts we know in the US. There is a man who passed away recently that was once known as the "Warren Buffett of India" but in reality he was nothing of the sort because he only managed his own money I'm pretty sure, kept an insanely low profile (e.g., no investor letters or public company), and traded basically what we would call penny stocks but became a billionaire doing it. Could he find the equivalent of AXP at 4x PE? Yes. Imagine if one of your friends looked at penny stocks. You would probably think he flamed out of his career and was kind of lame tbh. Probably when asking for advice on WSO about "Do I take Kentucky Fried Chicken Capital Markets trading TMT long/short or do I work at Biriani Capital in India trading penny stocks of metal piping companies?" people would 100% tell you KFC will give you better exit opps. 

Are there jobs looking at penny stocks there? No. Why? Because they are penny stocks and the definition of illiquid is that you can't invest a lot of money doing this - aka you can't deploy enough capital to create a job doing this. In many cases these successes invested their own personal or family money and were not hedge funds since that's just how things are done in India -- the economics of doing this are far better when it is family money rather than a traditional hedge fund which is why I think this model works better over there. Can you do it yourself and be Buffett? Frankly yes. Do you want to? Probably not. You can do something similar by just working at a big fund that invests in india but that is not the same. As an anecdote I do know 1 person who made about $1B+ PnL on an India-version of a strategy that made almost no alpha in the US. 

But think of that guy. Guess how many employees he had under him? Actually pretty much none. It was him and maybe one other person. So are there jobs doing that? no there aren't and its for the reasons I am stating.

 

In all seriousness though dawg you think his first wife found him a mistress back when what he did still looked lame af? No. Probably it was after he was a billionaire. I would to. Literally anyone would. I'm pretty sure it's heartbreaking if your husband doesn't want you that much anymore, but I'm also pretty sure hundreds of millions of dollars makes that pain go away pretty fast. 

 

Works at Citadel Investment Group

But think of how shitty and unsexy it was to be Buffett. Back then you had to get PHYSICAL COPIES of  filings walking uphill both ways to some library or something. Calculating a ratio between a few numbers is extremely hard when everything is on paper and you are using a slide rule or maybe a hand calculator. When you really step through it, how would you even stay organized? Imagine if your investment workbook was like a pen and paper notebook from school. Remember how hard it was to keep all that shit organized? You can't control F or anything. I’m sure at some point he got a computer but even then early computers could barely do anything. Buffett had those opportunities back then because doing the simplest stuff we take for granted today was actually very hard. This man did this stuff LITERALLY BY HAND.

You were making some sense up until this......is calculating ratios by hand tougher than stacking bricks????

Sure annoying but come on. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill here. Nearly every profession was more annoying without computers. Law was no less tedious as an example

I do not think that the annoying aspect of the job was a big factor to his excess returns. World is full of annoying jobs yesterday and today. He had an annoying job...lots of people do.

 

On his Tim Ferris interview, Ed Thorp claims to have given Ken Griffin boxes of hard to find prospectuses on convertible securities when he was just starting out. To your point, it's finding an edge in a given context.

 

Funny, my thread the other day "what's left in public equities" was kind of similar to this

Side note - I think many of the classic market wizards people would be great these days. They treat investing like a video game, and they look for the "meta" and exploit it. 

Anyways... yes, less free lunches, but I believe there will always be a spot for more absolute return oriented strategies that like to stay nimble.  I think there is going to be a bunch of $500mn-$1.75bn funds that gun for +20% returns over a 10yr stretch or whatever, and invest in the stuff others don't invest in. It will be less for the big boy institutions, but people will always seek out higher return vehicles. 
 

 

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