One of the things we've heard in the research I've been running looking into the experiences of juniors in IBs is that going you folks enjoyed the flexibility of working remotely.
And the return to the office is banks' inherent conservatism coming out once more.
What do you think - is the return to the office just another example of IBs being stuck in the past and not considering new ways of working?
Are you back in the office everyday - and if so what's that like compared to the time of Covid?
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I can only speak for the group I’m in. The days of working till 1am at the office are over and dont see us ever doing 5 days a week. We are mandated to do 4 days but most just do 3. Juniors stroll in from 10-11am and the bullpen starts to pack up around 5pm. So not that many hours being spent in the office. It’s ok to leave around 5-6pm and just continue at home where you are expected to be available till 1am. So I would say it’s much better than what it used to be like. Being able to go home and have dinner with family and shower at a reasonable time, hit the gym is amazing, and just knock things out at home through the night.
Thank you - I love that "Being able to go home and have dinner with family and shower at a reasonable time, hit the gym is amazing, and just knock things out at home through the night."
Sounds like you've got work-life well balanced!
..
Yup
Which bank is that?
sounds like JP
To your question - yes, I think banks mandating back to office are stuck in the past. We were recently required to come in 4 days a week which fucking sucks, and the leadership at my bank is blissfully ignorant (sending emails about how they are committed to flexibility with schedules, how we need to be in office when our senior bankers come in like 50% of the time, saying they are open to feedback but making the change which everyone is against, etc.). Banking is an incredibly backwards industry with so many things that could be improved.
Things like mandating in-office returns are why banks will always be stuck as a stepping stone to better careers and experience brain drain out of the industry.
But on the flip side, I don’t really give a shit anymore and like the poster above me said, I’m all about rolling into the office as late as possible and leaving as early as possible. It’s also probably because I am a second year, but I just don’t give a shit anymore about a job/firm that clearly does not give a shit about me. So in some ways it’s empowering and gives me more justification to fuck off in whatever ways I can:)
+1 for not giving a shit anymore. Things will never change unless people give pushback. I’d argue we are still underpaid despite the recent base raises and a lot of banks still fuck us over on bonuses. To your point, why would I do anything above the bare minimum when the banks have clearly shown they do not give a single shit about junior employees.
Thanks for the comments - one participant did the math of $ per hour and it did not sound quite as compelling as the comp when shown as a single figure!
Thank you for the comments - they're really really insightful and interesting, especially about where banks fit into folks' career paths: and that all important 'why' people think that way when it comes to their careers,
We'd been told in the research that 4 days in/1 day at home was happening for a lot of people - it seemed to be almost an industry-wide thing rather than banks acting unilaterally.
Is that because banks aren't comfortable being an exception - or don't want to be the exception?
Banks want to do the absolute bare minimum. If Bank A raises its Analyst salary but is perceived as beneath Bank B, Bank B will not raise their salary until their perceived peer or superior bank does it. See the response to the GS 13.
Banks never saw flexible hours/days as a perk for employees, they wanted to avoid legal hassle of mandating a return to office while Covid was going strong. However, once Goldman took the hard line of going back to the office, most other banks have broadly fallen in line and now have the cover of "conforming to industry practice" when in reality it's an excuse to do what they always wanted to do in the first place.
Same goes for cuts to workforce; banks want to do it but need the cover of it happening elsewhere at peer/superior banks.
Great response. The only one needed on here. People need to wake the hell up already.
Doing 80 to 100 hrs a week of work from home banking is the worst thing ever. Being in 4-5 days a week for about 10 to 12 hrs a day is way better.
Right, because the emails stop once you leave the office and no one expects you to crack the laptop open at home…
That's a really interesting insight, so thanks for sharing: it's always good to hear a range of views!
My MD is a boomer try hard who mandates us 5 days a week in the office from 9-7 or whenever he feels like leaving. Absolutely miserable. I like the work and the people on my team but this shit makes me want to leave and I’ll probably find a new job eventually because of it.
Not being snarky here, just curious. Oh BTW I think the whole IB world is insane and ridiculously inefficient. I also think MDs who are supposed to be relationship / sales oriented don't know the first thing about professionally selling. That aside... prior to covid, you knew what IB was. If there was no covid I assume banking would never had experienced WFH for juniors. So why is this a surprise and what did you think you were getting in to? I would suggest if you don't wan to play by their crazy "apprenticeship model" you find another career.
Things change and times change. We aren't in the 1980's anymore. Yea banking will always work crazy hours and juniors will suffer, it is what it is. But covid did happen and it opened doors to a better life while still producing crazy hours and top tier work. Wouldn't have happened without covid but it did happen and if banks want to continue to keep top talent, have to adjust to the new way of life covid created. Also, no matter what the career, people will complain. Even if I followed my dream career, I would complain about it somehow. It's just how humans are programmed
One of the most ridiculous comments I have read on this site. I would argue but there's no point. You clearly are acting in bad faith. Do better.
We are back in FT with little to no WFH. It hasn’t been banned outright, it’s just frowned upon. Everyone is expected to be in during the day and most people are staying late in the office to to work. Most are working weekends at home. An issue that is cropping up is staff who aren’t always quick to respond at home. So response time is becoming an issue and seniors are pushing back with the idea that “this wouldn’t be happening if everyone is in the office.”
That sucks. But that type of culture is what will force great junior with lots of potential to lateral to a bank that allows him or her to wfh 1 day a week and leave at dinner time
GS
If you're going in more than 3 days a week or find yourself leaving after 6pm consistently, you need lateral. Plenty of groups out there seriously. The only reason bad policies exist is because you all let them. Just don't come in. You literally think they will axe the entire floor when deals are in-process at home?
Said by a bottom bucket A1, likely at a lifestyle group, at a LMM bank.
Real IB groups aren't going to stand for that amateur hour BS you are spouting.
You staying past 6pm in ecm? 5 days a week?
my bank (UBS), has mandated 4 days in the office now (we used have only 2-3 days in).
I hate it. I did banking before covid, during covid, and now. the hybrid model was amazing, split up the mundane work week, made the random late night grinds better(knowing I can just wake up and work from home vs having to commute into the office)
It made me want to keep doing banking. its so tone deaf to hear seniors now push the in office work after all the work we did for them during covid WFH period. everyone in tech has adapted. not in banking.
I dont care about my firm, our leadership, our deals, pitches. dont care.
where can i lateral with a more flexible model?
Fellow UBS associate here. I too really started feeling like I could do this long term given the 3/2 flexibility.
My team has additionally started pushing hard on being at the desk for 9AM sharp. I'm sure departures times are the next shoe to drop.
the analysts who started during covid are the weakest cohort i have ever seen, and the primary reason for that is WFH.
i'm not saying people need to be in 5 days a week 24 hours a day. But having the majority of the team in working together in person, say M-T / 9 hours a day is extremely beneficial from a learning and socialization perspective.
Just want to call out there is a hiring freeze across most banks. So that go somewhere where you can work from home isn’t really going to fly if you want to be at a reputable bank. If you don’t want to get screwed in bonus or worse yet - be first in line to be laid off, show up and make a good effort at work. If you hate banking lifestyle / expectations, go do something else.
Of course the director would say this lmfao. Easy for you to say when making 10x our salary and half the hours. Yes, let's keep slaving away so you can make sure you get your nice fat bonus check at the end of the year. What are you going to tell me that if I keep my head down and slave away like a good boy I'll one day be in your shoes? Nice try. You are in for a rude awakening once you see us wake up.
A long long time ago, someone told me. “I’ll never ask you to do something I won’t do myself” so if you want all the juniors at the office for 12 hours a day. I expect you to be there with them the entire time
I love when an MD or Director, who knows their shit, comes on here to provide an actually insightful and grounded viewpoint that deviates from whatever all of the anonymous Intern/A1 accounts are repeating to each other on the forums, cluelessly.
Then instead of people listening to their elders who have clearly made it to their position for a reason, all the anonymous interns and Analysts just shit on them and tell them they're wrong. Yall don't make the rules lol, listen to your superiors.
"listen to your superiors". This is one of the most submissive, soft comments I've read in my whole life.
I work in corporate banking but we are allowed to WFH whenever and come and go as we please. Only rules really are never miss a meeting and always get work done on time.
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