Ease of Getting IB Jobs in 2-4 years?
Job market is shit rn due to the poor economy. Nonnepos/nondiverse suffered a shit ton in the past recruiting cycles as a result.
Due to Trump's policies (which may get rid of DEI) and a possibly improving economy, do you believe we will see the ease of getting IB jobs improve after 2-4 years?
Disclaimer: Although there is January, policies and changes will take time to implement (Reasoning of why I am asking within 2-4 years).
Bump.
Not sure if it will be easier, but for what it's worth the magnitude of these DEI policies will be much less pronounced from January 20 and on. No need to wait 2-4 years for that, firms will just re-calibrate their recruiting efforts to pre woke / diversity hiring practices
Many delusional folks actually think curtailing DEI policies will lead to higher chances of landing a gig in IB.
I'd start brainstorming some new excuses.
I think some folks need to realize they’re just not cut out for banking and other highly competitive roles.
Even if DEI efforts tamp down (although they likely won’t anytime soon, because clients actually consider DEI participation when deciding which bank to award their business/fees) a lot of people on this site still wouldn’t win roles. What will be the scapegoat/excuse then?
I’m actually a non-diverse candidate myself, and I have not struggled to land roles. Winners win despite the ever-changing sociopolitical climate. Just my 2 cents.
100% this. Many who want to make it are ambitious but don't have the ideal backgorund which is paramount in this industry, so it creates this toxic ambition where you want to be among those few that make it, and considering that chances are slim to none it creates that obsessison of wanting precisely that which you can't get.
Yes. The only time I’d feel sympathy, and criticize DEI, is if you’re a non-diverse kid from a top target with solid experience, who knows his shit backwards and forwards, who strikes out. If you’re an all around non-target white kid whining about DEI then I have no sympathy. Life sucks. Deal with it; drink like the rest of us.
Drink like the rest of us hahaha
Just to be clear, I am very much anti-DEI initiatives when they genuinely disadvantage qualified non-diverse candidates at the expense of less qualified hires in the name of “diversity.” I’ve seen it too often, and abhor it. My issue is people who are themselves completely unqualified using DEI as an excuse. No, your 3.4 GPA from Rutgers isn’t going to help you break in. Deal with it.
It’s always easier to blame minority candidates than it is to admit you’re not good enough
To be fair, I understand the criticism, and do agree with it, having seen extremely qualified non-diverse candidates get passed over when diverse hires have an easier path in. I just get annoyed when some guy from Rutgers whose only experience is serving at Chick-fil-A (not that there’s any shame in that), whines about diversity hiring, as if that’s the reason he isn’t getting looks. I don’t like people who make excuses.
This is wrong (coming from a non-diverse individual in a coveted position). Seat numbers have not gone up in tandem with # of applicants and it's a fact that these programs allocate already-limited seats to candidates who without said programs would not be able to get into the industry.
Think logically - 100 applicants, 80 of which are non-diverse and 20 that are, vying for 10 seats, four of which are reserved for women and POC. 19/20 of the latter group are worse than the top 20 of the former group (trust me), meaning perhaps one candidate could maybe get a seat without any initiatives.
In the base scenario, the former group has a 7.5% chance while the latter has a 20% chance. Remove these initiatives and all 10 seats very likely go to the former group, increasing their chances to 12.5%. Now, the 4 non-diverse individuals who got seats are "winners", whereas before they were "losers", only by virtue of having a system that artificially limits their ability to get in simply because of numbers.
There can only be so many seats in finance / law / medicine and there is an ever-increasing number of applicants. If you have a demographic that fills seats and then you suddenly decide to allocate seats to another, it can only mean one thing: taking seats away from the former and making it harder for them.
Can you make a TLDR pls. Not Reading all of that, thx.
I think you're being quite generous when you say that 4/10 spots are reserved for woman / URM, it actually closer to 7 or even potentially 7.5 / 10. Not really sure why nepotism is used as the immediate response for why DEI is needed because (1) nepotism is something that anyone regardless of race can provide to their future children if they are successful (2) Nepotism has revenue sharing interest for MDs trying to win clients (3) Nepotism is also done more "behind the scenes" as opposed to having a fully separate and earlier application process like DEI which is openly marketed on the website.
Going back to the mathematical example above, it's actually more like 150 total candidates (20 DEI // 130 non DEI) competing for 20 spots of which 15 are essentially reserved for the DEI candidates. Mathematically DEI candidates have a 75% acceptance rate (15/20) and the non-DEI candidates have a 3.8% acceptance rate (5/130). What that means is that a DEI candidates has a 19.7X odds (75% to 3.8%) vs a non-DEI candidate to get placed and that's fully assuming all candidates are equally qualified which we all know they aren't. The non-DEI candidates with the hardo Asian / Indian / middle-class hustler white kids are likely going to have substantially better resumes that aren't fluffed up with Girls Who Invest, SEO, MLT and Out for Undergrad non-sensical programs. This is also not even accounting for how much harder it is for an asian to get into a solid semi-target / target university and even join the proper clubs once in the university.
Before you call me salty or say "YoU CaNt MaKe It!" -- I am a proud asian male from a middle class Midwest family, proudly the son of two immigrant parents who sacrificed everything for me, didn't even speak english until age 5, spent my Friday and Saturdays doing Kumon while my cool personality admission peers were out tripping LSD and smoking weed, attended an middle class public HS (only one in my class to even do high finance), attended a solid semi-target state school (UVA / UT / IU Kelley / Northwestern), barely got a Chicago MM IB SA internship (didn't even get a return offer), lateraled banks fulltime to a top BB / EB group and then got into a top 1% buyside seat at a MF.
There are other Indian / Asian kids like me who deserve to be in the same spot as me. We work harder, grind harder and are overall better candidates than Becky / Lauren from Andover Academy and DEI must go. If you are a woman or URM you can grind as hard as me and no mythical white supremist culture will hold you back.
Take a chill pill bro
I think 15/20 is a tad egregious but maybe I was also being a bit generous.
Point still stands though - they have it far, far easier, and yes, people like you get absolutely sewered because you get bucketed into the "ORM" category despite having the exact difficult upbringing / background they ascribe to, say, black people (even though blanket applying something to a race is ridiculous and the exact opposite of what leaders of these initiatives preach).
Congrats on the MF offer - you deserved it more than anyone. Head held high, sir.
can u pls msg me - in a similar position to what ur describing and need pointers on FT lateral recruitment. would be super helpful, thank you
How did you get to top BB / EB whilst not getting a RO from MM, I'm in a similar spot with no offer
Gonna use this as a copypasta lol.
AA isn't even a thing anymore, stop making excuses. It reminds me of the woke right loosing their shit over more H1Bs.
This is objectively not true. Despite my title, I am currently an associate at a top-MF (think KKR, Permira, Warburg, Apollo, CVC), was previously at a top 3 BB / EB, and attended a semi-target state school, came from an objectively middle class family and attended a public high school. I graduated around 2021-2022 when the hiring market was still very hot. I am by all means one of the non-nepo / non-DEI candidates who have "made it" and therefore no one can say that I am salty that a DEI candidate took my spot.
When I was a 19 year old sophomore going through the SA recruitment process it was basically impossible for me as a college student to get any top offer without DEI. Before you go and start to blame nepotism for this, keep in mind the 50% gender quote + quotas for URM basically reserves over 70-75% of spots for DEI candidates. That is a substantially bigger issue than 10-12% of spots going to some Chad that attended Deerfield Academy.
Despite ending up at a top MegaFund, I didn't even receive a return offer to my middle market banking internship in Chicago and was instead passed up for Woman / URM who didn't even know what a DCF / LBO were (I was told I am charismatic and good at soft skills etc). The only way I was able to get to my top BB / EB which then spring boarded me into a top MF was via the lateral process during a red-hot fulltime market. If I had graduated 1-2 year later in 2023/2024 I would have been absolutely cooked and everyone on this site would have just been calling me another salty Indian / Asian who was mad that a black person or woman took my spot. All of this say that 70-75% of all these top BB / EB spots essentially being reserved for DEI candidates is a MASSIVE problem and NO all the non-Nepo / non-DEI candidates who call out DEI are not people who "can't make it" and I am proof of that.
All this to say that the difference between not getting a return offer at a TD / BMO / Cantor type of bank and ending up at a creme de la creme MF is actually a pretty small margin and it worked out for me because of the red hot lateral market from a few years ago. If it weren't for these absurd DEI quotas there would be many others like me who would easily get spots at these top funds and banks. This is coming from someone who has objectively made it to a top 1% buyside seat.
Agreed entirely.
Calling out people who complain about this as losers is just a way to make anyone successful feel ashamed for still looking out for those who didn't make it when it's just plain false.
wait how are you a summer associate if you didn't go to BB?
if their clients want DEI, then maybe be a hard working american and create your own fund.
DEI is not overblown at all. I have whitnessed absurd practices at my bank. For an internal hire analyst position in a coverage group the hiring manager was told they could only look at female candidates as the team was too male-centric. The undoubtedly best candidate that came from a similar group with direct experience was rejected on the basis the team could only hire women. Needless to say, the woman they hired had no tangible experience whatsoever as well as coming from an objectively much weaker academic background. The VPs and associates spent a year complaining of how absolutely terrible she was. I can just imagine what that guy must’ve been through when they told him the reasoning his rejection despite him being the preferred candidate (and in fairness they were at least transparent with it)
The winners win thing is correct, the tier 1A non-diverse candidates will not struggle to get jobs. However, the tier 1b and tier 1c non-diverse candidates will all compete over limited spots while DEI Becky & Co. compete against a less talented (by median & average competence) / smaller pool for a disproportionate number of seats relative to non-diverse candidates due to gender quotas. It blows my mind that people in finance do not understand this basic math problem that leads to a talent drain. You can ad hominem all you want “maybe you’re not good enough” but the through line is indisputable.
I would not categorize myself as a tier 1A non-diverse (mega non-target school, not great at pitch comp, super introverted, started finance late), but I was able to be scrappy and grinded to a position where I got into mutliple BB/EB processes when I was doing FT recruiting and signed with an EB. I believe if you got beaten out by DEI Becky you were at best a borderline talent, the type of guy people say "I guess he's alright". Maybe you could've done a better job than DEI Becky, but immaterial difference. I go to a non-target school but every asian/indian guy that I thought was legit was in a position to land BB/EB/Buyside (multiple superdays).
So no if you fully struck out its 100% on you. Finance recruiting has been fully gamed out atp.
Ill be honest, the majority of the ppl that complains about DE&I non-stop are unironically worse than the diversity candidates (I have mocked them). If you are good you are good. If some indian kid from Baruch can make it to PJT RSSG, you simply arent as good as you think you are. I myself is a non-target non-diverse and I had no issue getting into processes for BB/EB.
Bro is the GOAT non-target
The number of people applying for IB roles keeps increasing at a rate that is much higher than the number of spots available. It will only get increasingly more difficult to get a job in IB over time
2 - 4 years is a long time and a lot can happen. Nobody on this forum knows what the job market will be like then (and I think you know that, but it's a disclaimer I need to make). Amongst my other flaws, I am also European and based in London, so take these views with that pinch of salt.
I'd make a couple of points:
1) It does feel like the broader M&A (and other product) market is picking up worldwide and this is true regardless of politics. Sure, I hear the argument that a Trump government in the US might be more accommodative to mega mergers, but I'm surprised at the level of media coverage of this. The much bigger story for me is the number of hung PE assets and need for DPI which has been woefully low for 18 - 24 months. This is the bread-and-butter type of business IBs rely on and that we need ANs / ASs for - after all, those CIMs won't write themselves. If there are mega-mergers then all the merrier. There's a lot that needs to come to market in the next 18 - 24 months, and hopefully that means the market and need for junior talent will pick up.
2) DEI is certainly a thing, and at least at my own bank, I don't see any movement in the prioritisation of this (again, I'm European and based in London). I don't have a view (genuinely) on whether there'll be changes that will make the market harder or easier here. That said, for non-DEI candidates, my advice is (and you're fully to entitled to hold opinions and campaign for policy changes) to at least assume that if you did not land a role, it was not a DEI issue. Reflect on your application and interview performance and learn from it. When we lose a sellside bakeoff to GS, we don't say "we lost it because of course GS has the brand and that's out of our control", we ask whether we could have given more fullsome prospective buyer feedback, whether our relationship with management was strong enough, whether our valuation range was off, whether we've shown enough love to PE firm X outside of this pitch. Maybe policies will change and maybe they won't, but in the meantime focuson being your best self.
lol DEI is not why most of you can’t get a banking job. A lot of you guys simply aren’t as talented as you think you are
This is. A massive FACT. Every “DEI” hire has top top grades, very good soft and technical skills and are just likeable (at least in my region). No form is gonna hire a shit worker because of “DEI”, they still go through the same shit
This is so false that idek where to begin... knowing the DEI candidates at my MBA program (3 women, 1 latino guy), only the latino was decent. The 3 women were a joke; they did not put much effort in and only learned the very most basic technicals (that all the white/indian guys learned several months prior), yet those same women were getting SDs with Evercore, BoA, Roths, etc. I also knew personally and second-hand many folks (blacks, women, etc) that could just WALK into roles.
My colleague told me a story of this MBA girl that interviewed with him and he was so unimpressed and rejected her immediately but the firm still brought her back after the recruiter and HR made a whole argument as to why they should reconsider her because she is a woman. So they ended up giving her the offer. Then, get this, she turned it down because she got an offer from a significantly better firm (top EB).
DEI candidates have it ridiculously easy at the MBA level, and I imagine that it is not very different at the Analyst level.
This is BS man, especially at the MBA recruiting level
False.
This is completely false. The standards are lower for DEI candidates.
Partner certified classic - I'm sure you benefit by enforcing and achieving DEI targets (despite having not faced them yourself, or at least not nearly at the level they're at now).
I wrote out the logic above which I'm sure you're smart enough to know yourself. Already-limited seats + increasing applicant pool + allocating some seats to a very small portion of the applicant pool = much harder time for non-diverse candidates and much easier time for the smaller applicant pool.
Many people who would have been winners 20 years ago now don't even get the chance to break in and prove themselves. I'm sure you can name a number of people (likely even some friends) you know who failed upwards / were not that strong at the start of their careers and blossomed into something great. Those people wouldn't even get the opportunity today.
Are they then losers? Do you have the gall to say that about people who improved in their seat / role that you yourself know? Doubtful.
To pile on here, even if you were to subtract out every seat filled by a minority (dubiously assuming 100% of them are the "DEI" bogeyman), there are still more seats remaining across established banking and buyside shops than there were 10 or 15 years ago. Banking class sizes have gotten much much larger across the board and there are way more buyside opportunities available out of school than ever before, all while enrollment at top colleges has remained flat. Simultaneously, information access has gotten better and pretty much every firm has continued to try to hire from a wider range of colleges (surprise: your nontarget ass getting an interview is also DEI - inclusion isn't just forcing banks to hire black kids, its also the reason more people from state schools than ever before are breaking into the industry). Bottom line is, if you're a white or asian dude, a top finance job is more accessible (both as an absolute number and proportionately) than ever before. If you can't get one, its you that's ass.
I don't think the point is about getting an offer or not... Most people who put in the work get an offer, but there is a difference between getting a top offer such as CVP or GS TMT vs Lincoln or Cantor (no offense). That's where the DEI push comes into play, as 50-70% of these top spots are usually taken by DEI candidates. Good luck competing for the remaining spots vs other undifferentiated white dudes, some of whom are nepos... At that point it's more luck than anything else
This makes no sense and is just straight up not true.
1) The post is titled ease of getting "IB jobs" - nobody is talking about LMM 10 man shops in milwaukee or whatever but big established MMs like Lincoln / Cantor are real, quality, IB seats paying kids 150k+ out of college that people come on here regularly to complain about striking out at (often blaming DEI candidates).
2) It also makes no sense to claim DEI is disproportionately imposed into top groups like Goldman TMT - even if DEI is forced onto an overall hiring class at a bank, the top groups will always have the most power / first pick during group selection and select all the sweaty, seemingly competent white / asian kids because they need people who are willing to grind. Simulatenously, whatever nepo hire or white girl from SMU will pref Consumer / Nat Res or a different group thats less intense vs getting pounded at GS FIG / Industrials. This results in the top groups having less "DEI" candidates vs the makeup of the whole class
3) It's just untrue that 70% of spots are filled with DEI candidates in any firm. Even if its outlandishly true that half of the seats at centerview are DEI, M&A groups at places like centerview / evercore / PJT have more than doubled their class size in the last decade (again, while enrollment at top targets has remained flat). What does that mean? Even subtracting your fake DEI seats in the current day and assuming 100% of seats 10 years ago were given to "worthy" whites / asians, there are still more "top" seats for white / asian males today than ever before and the proportion of white / asian males at targets who get one has increased.
4) It's not luck. People who say that are just coping. Sure, any given interview process will involve luck, but over a set of 15-30 applications processes in a recruitment cycle, top talent will get top jobs. The best talent regularly get cross offers with high density. It's not luck that pretty much everyone at PJT RSSG also got and turned down a HL / EVR RX offer - its meaningful clustering that proves that banks are looking for a set of characteristics and some kids are just better at displaying them than others.
Yeah that’s just not true. 50-70% is absolute NOT diverse at the top groups. I understand if you feel resentment because you only ended up at BofA after grinding, but foh with Cantor or Lincoln. You not that good so just get better to lateral down the line.
50-70 percent is absolute horseshit.
Why does every thread on WSO get hijacked and turned into an anti-DEI rant.
To answer the question - it will get easier because M&A activity has and will pick up considerably. There was a ton of sponsor asset movement in the 2020-2021 period due to low rates… and these funds typically have 5-7 year holds so they’ll need to exit soon. Lots of haggling in the present day over valuation… sellers think they should be valued at the frothy 2021 levels, and risk-off buyers are pricing in heavy discounts. Both sides will have no choice but to meet in the middle at some point soon.
Often missed:
The “job market” does not matter at all. Killers still get hired in any environment. Do you really think companies are in the business of turning away highly effective candidates? Even if they’re hiring just one person this year, make sure that you’re so good that you are the one person. Ignore everything else. Shitty candidates won’t get hired (or stay on) in any environment, even in the COVID boom where every bank needed bodies. In the long run you just need to be good independent of the market.
sounds like a skill issue. our university had almost everyone who wanted to do IB place even in a “difficult job market.” as a non diverse, non nepo, average intelligence student, I was able to land an offer through grinding.
To all ambitious kids here who actually have the academic credentials; get into the best college possible, find the best internships you can, network, study your technicals, and you will be good. If you’re at a complete and utter non target (SUNY’s, CUNY’s, or whatever the fuck else there is), I don’t want to hear about DEI (no matter how much I personally criticize it). Only time I care is if students with legitimate resumes from solid target schools strike out. You don’t have the resume. Deal with it. Life sucks, that’s why God created alcohol.
^This… Yes DEI takes away slots from non-diverse applicants but the idea that you were next up for the spot is almost always not true. If you’re at a target, with good grades, good experience, and think you aren’t fully autistic during interviews, then yes you may have of an argument to be pissed off at DEI initiatives. But it’s definitely not a productive mindset to have because you can’t grow from it if you blame the result on external factors, not your performance.
Exactly: to be clear, I think DEI is a completely hypocritical system that does deny qualified applicants spots. My only issue is with people who wouldn’t have been qualified either way whining about how that’s why they didn’t get a seat.
it's unlikely that the reason you didn't land an offer was DEI.
when i look at major MM banks, it's easily 50% straight white men at most shops. it's closer to like 70-80% at regional banks. there's nothing wrong with that. they still pay great. i'm not saying DEI is fair, but let's be honest, none of IB recruiting is fair. going to a target school is already more likely for more privileged people. how many DEI-eligible students do you find at competitive finance clubs at big competitive target schools? it's mainly a few women some perv guys find hot. almost all finance clubs at my semi-target are full of rich/nepo white/asian/indian guys. they're all very smart still, but they exclude anybody they don't "vibe" with. or you make one mistake your first semester and they wont let you into any club later. none of this process is fair. getting rid of DEI wont make it 100% meritocratic either.
also, most banks dont have guaranteed superdays for their DEI events. and the ones that do are really hard to get into.
the slow market was the reason there were less spots. it's a simple explanation. the amount of applicants in finance is relatively constant anyways, unlike computer science which has grown exponentially but their job market is at 2019 level.
post-hiring DEI boosts like promotions are much more problematic but even that is just a more complex version of regular office politics.
Having gone to a target myself everything you said was spot on. Most of IB recruitment is unfair and it’s crazy how your future job prospects are dictated by IB clubs. It sucks that you literally have to be friends with these guys and five with them to get on them and it’s totally not Meritocratic.
exactly, i dislike the IB club system the most. the same group of kids are in the business frats, finance/consulting clubs, and IB/consulting workshops, hoarding resources. i respect the alumni who choose to help students outside that club system so much more.
I’m the least diverse kid on the planet and went to a tiny non-target liberal arts school. I always knew I had what it takes to do banking, but the non-target status made it harder to recruit due to incompetence in college’s recruiting office. That being said, DEI is definitely a problem. I legit had a partner at a PE firm say to my face “we’re not looking for people that look like you”. Instead of crying about it or filing a federal discrimination lawsuit, I fucking grinded to break in. What that partner said to me acted a fuel to make me more hungry than I was before. And you know what, I ended up landing at an industry-focused UMM bank, while also getting other banking offers and one from a top-corp dev team in the country. I say all this to show that for the average white non-target non-neppo kid, it is totally within your reach to land a high finance job - if you’re willing to put in the work. Just because you go to a non-target doesn’t mean you’re unqualified to work in these roles. But please also don’t lean on the DEI people took my job line to defend your lack of effort. This is similar to the DEI people saying I didn’t get an offer because wallstreet is racist.
Predictions like these don’t matter because it doesn’t change your actions.
Either the economy does better, and working hard to get a good job gets you a great job.
economy does OK and working hard gets you a good job.
Or economy does poorly and working hard gets you a decent job when most your friends have no or crappy jobs
in all the scenarios you should still work hard. Worrying about the future state of the M&A market in a few years does not help you get a job so there is no reason to worry about it.
I'll save everyone some time on this thread. Yes, DEI is getting pushed back, although it won't get like a light switch. Yes, DEI does hurt people. But just how bad it is is a little overblown. I will 100% agree there are too many people who use that as an excuse. But saying DEI doesn't have a large negative impact is equally stupid. All agreed? Good.
Completely agreed. Good post.
Not having DEI also hurts people. That being said, I agree that DEI in certain instances can be too aggressive. But let's not forget its origin and initial purpose is warranted even if we can all agree its implementation is far from perfect.
Looking into my crystal ball…I see dark clouds ahead, maybe or actually not, it’s unclear
Anyone who thinks DEI is overblown does not have the complete picture. Just look at the average DEI spring week attendant at BBs in London. Sure some of them are qualified (LSE/Oxbridge), and they should be the perfect candidates that DEI targets, nothing wrong here. In fact, this is probably a good thing as they are very qualified, and help the bank be more appealing to clients who prioritise DEI. However, and this is where it is terrible, you also have these random neeks from the University of Westminster, Strathclyde etc over non-diverse 1st class students at semi targets (Edinburgh/Durham etc), and 2:1 students at top targets (LSE/Oxbridge). And now everyone is complaining that analysts are terrible now...
A few yrs ago the job market was pretty good for IB
Are you implying DEI changed the IB landscape that drastically?
No i am not talking about DEI. In general, the job market was better back then even for non dei.
Dude tell me about it! I am currently interviewing at banks in Alaska specializing in Seafood and Salmon M&A. Multiples are based on EV/Pounds. I failed the interview. I saw on Indeed there was a job posting on Mars I might drop my resume there. Hit me up for details.
As a black kid, I appreciate seeing more than just one black professional on a floor of 300 people.
In 4 years since DEI, my floor is up to five black people now.
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