Anyone willing to share their experience of exiting high-finance and never looking back as a senior associate or VP ?
What made you leave ? What made you stay ?
I already have some exposure to that higher-level deal-making process at banks. I can see why it is interesting, but I don't find it very meaningful or exciting. Interesting <> exciting.
I personally know several associates and VPs, and 1 director, who have completely lost interest in banking, but are still in the industry for the money. They brag about that high-profile deal they made, that celebrity board director they talked to, and post about food and expensive wine on Instagram. They have gradually turned themselves into some of the most shallow human beings you meet. None of the people I mentioned here are in relationships except 1.
They are not necessarily rich, but definitely make enough cash to afford Prada handbags, Ralph Lauren suits, 5-star hotels on a trip, expensive dinners, and all that.
Realistically what jobs are exciting or meaningful? I hear plenty of doctors, nurses and teachers who grumble about theirs. Those jobs are supposed to be full of meaning, but for doctors and nurses there is shit tons of charting and paperwork, dealing with asshole patients, crappy schedules. Teachers have to deal with administrators, high stakes testing and kids and parents who may not care or value education.
Recognize you’re better off deriving meaning outside of work. That can come from family, religion, volunteering. Recognize a job is a job even if it’s highly compensated, start saving more and try and retire early.
Totally agreed, but definitely understand why they might try to find meaning if the job's burning them out and consuming nearly all their personal time (i.e. no time/energy to pursue things outside of work).
Not in a clinical role in healthcare and it wears me thin. Healthcare is fun to work in though in my opinion in growth strategy roles though. Focusing on untapped operation synergies is also fun but the actual frontline work? It can be insanely intense/boring/repetitive. Patients can truly be a huge pain to deal with especially during this pandemic.
I might be dumb for saying this:
Steve Jobs, in his famous Stanford speech, said "keep looking, don't settle". That is extremely risky behavior for anybody, just not risk-averse people in banking and big law. I do believe you CAN find meaning in work. Meanwhile, as others have well put here, if you ONLY find meaning in your work, you are likely to be a giant asshole, or very miserable.
Agree with this. The fact is that if you want to be hypersuccessful in your field you need to have been doing it from a young age which doesn't leave enough time to actually find your passions. You cant expect to be able to try out working in PE, HF, tech, Corp dev etc and in your mid thirties jump into a MF PE role. There are far too many people grinding purely PE their whole life to be able to do that and compete with them. Best strategy in my opinion is find something you moderately enjoy and stick with it and try not to focus on the grass potentially being greener.
Completely disagree. You need to have some kind of purpose, it is not sustainable to work 80h a week while disliking it unless your goal is to be unhappy.
One could find purpose in other areas. For example, you may be excited about web3 and want to be a venture capitalist. Or have a passion and become an entrepreneur to develop some kind of business around your interest. Or you like risk taking and making money and want to become a professional investor. Or get into non profit.
Don’t work just waiting for retirement, it’s gonna be a long road..
I agree about purpose, I’m just not sure how purposeful the average person feels as a VP in IB. As an analyst or new to industry associate you’re learning finance, as a senior associate or VP it can feel like a slog processing and managing the process. The reality is that the senior bankers are in two camps those that are fulfilled and those that aren’t. At the end of the day the fulfilled ones seem to either really love what they do whether it be the industry fascinates them or the strategy behind a merger or they have other things that imbue their life with meaning usually family.
As you become more senior you have more control and it isn’t an 80 hour a week grind, but travel does pick up. For what it’s worth I really enjoy what I do, I have always found it fascinating, but I find meaning outside of the office.
MyPillow guy was a crackhead that couldn’t sleep and found his passion bro
any normal person over 30 on insta has issues
Haven't made the exit yet but very advanced in the process. Likely Q1. Honestly, would have done it much earlier but took me a long time to shake off the golden handcuffs. Fuck, can you even call it golden at the VP level lol.
The truth is I'm bored. Fucking bored. After a while, every deal starts to look the same. Sure the story is "unique", markets evolve, every deal has issues, but ultimately execution has become a blur. Every sell side has the same process of pitch->teaser/CIM/model/buyers list->sign NDA etc. etc. I really enjoy working with clients, dealing with buyside and the human aspect of it. But really the core work, executing on deals, has become monotonous. You know what's worse than boring? Boring that requires long hours and managing senior bankers.
I am likely moving into industry. Have been working mostly with growth stage tech companies in the last couple of years, and I have the urge to help build something. Expand my horizons a bit, hell even ready to put my back office / operations hat on. Equity would be nice too.
Do you think if you were directing the pitches you would have a different opinion of the flow of work?
This was exactly what happened to me and for what its worth, couldn't be happier with my decision. I ended up as the corp dev director for a late stage pre-ipo tech company in an entirely different industry.
Spent 7 years in IB, split between a boutique and a BB. By the end, every deal felt the same and realized I needed to go when I couldn't point to a single new thing I had learned the prior year. All of which was made worse as I started to feel like a bit of a charlatan (my group was clearly not a thought leader in the industry so content was basically copy and paste from ER, without bringing anything additive to the table).
Oh wow, Mr. Magnanimous is ready to put his OPERATIONS hat on ? Wow! What an absolute treat!
I see senior associates / VPs exit all. the. time. Often they don't like it for a while but stick around for the money. The people that stay in banking or are good MDs are the people that LOVE making deals. It's rare, but you probably see it in your best MDs, they are obsessed with deals and enjoy the process.
The senior asos and VPs go to corp dev or smaller buyside gigs. They made decent money and work a lot less.
I do agree with the above post, work is rarely super meaningful.
The real question is how many associates and VP do you see that exit and regret it? I see quite a few. Hours might be rough and work not nobel prize stuff, but it comps very well compared to virtually any other job you can name on a risk-adjusted basis. Sure, maybe you'll exit to corp dev of a pre-IPO company, become CFO, then IPO or get bought out and bank like $50mm but the chances of that are slim. Meanwhile as a VP in your 20's/30's, you're making $600k plus with visibility into significantly more if you stuck around. I sometimes think I'll end up in industry but being fairly risk-averse, not sure if it'll happen.
I think it is hard for anyone to shave golden handcuffs even if they are not that tight.
What do you do though if you hit VP/early director and begin to realize selling at the MD level isn't in the cards for you (can't sell or have no interest in selling)? Isn't it better to leave at the VP/early director level?
Good question. I don't disagree that if you want to change fields, it's probably better to do it earlier rather than later. That said, I think you can exit at D into an equivalent title at a corporate but probably with the benefit of a few more years of higher earnings under your belt vs VP? Depending on your bank, there are also standalone M&A groups where MDs don't have to source deals. Clearly no ideal answer but whatever the strategy is, it should be executed with eyes wide open. As in 'I'll exit at VP3 instead of getting a D1 promo, which comps $850k. I'll take a corp dev. job that pays $400k but I'll be CFO making $3mm in 5 years' doesn't necessarily strike me as a realistic analysis. I had some other corporate jobs before banking and despite working significantly less hours (also making significantly less), I hated it way more. At least banking is comparatively meritocratic and people here aren't giving me weird feedback like 'we think you talk to other teams too much'. I think a lot of times people who join banking straight out of school don't realize how crappy and slow-moving / conservative jobs at the F500 can be and if they did, wouldn't get as jaded. But I'm lucky because all my team members/seniors in banking are all very friendly and cool.
There is more to life than money ?
Do you really think that making $500k instead of $300k or even $250k will significantly enhance your happiness ?
Plus if your not dumb and invest intelligently you can also make significant side income
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Very tough to do in careers where you don’t have much life outside of work
interesting
Followin
Agree with previous poster. Find meaning outside of work. Look around your office and it will be very easy to spot the guys who derive all their meaning from their job; they are almost certain to be the biggest tools / assholes. That’s because your job will never love you back. It’s ok to love what you do, but you need to find fulfillment outside of the office.
As for VP exits, I exited as a VP. IB can be boring and a grind, which is partially why I left. In my case, I joined a growth stage company. The trade offs are very clear: you give up money (typically) and being surrounded by all bright / ambitious people to get control over your life and schedule. If you’re lucky, like I was, you still have smart people around and can earn decent money.
It’s all about trade offs. If you are the type that needs a BB bank on your business card to feel good about yourself, the trade off will never be worth it.
what do you do now?
Mix of Corp Dev and FP&A. Pay is solid and my company is full of good people. It’s far from a dream job, but I work 40-50 hrs and have a lot of time to spend with my family.
What level / title did you lateral into? Who did you end up reporting to?
VP Corp Dev, and I report to CFO.
What position level did you lateral to? Director? VP? Were you directly reporting to the CFO?
I left about 6 months away from VP promotion in good standing. To me all of the sprints towards deals look the same, even if it's a cool company / industry. The Associate role wore me out and I wasn't motivated by the progression going forward.
The VPs I talked to said it was always exciting to be in the room with the executives at our clients who make these big decisions and we get to be a part of that. My view is the IB deal team never MAKES a decision. We put together some interesting analysis on WHY we recommend something, but the answer is already there before we start - if our client wants to buy Company X, typically we justify it and figure out how much they can pay, then fight for the lowest price, etc.
In my mind if the job becomes slightly better in terms of WLB, but if the best part of it is seeing how the decisions are made by the C-Suite, I just realized I was not going to get my motivation back in this role, even going up to VP and MD.
No other way around it, the money is better in IB than in industry and that is a big factor if you really desire a certain type of lifestyle. To me (and this is not true of everyone) it was well worth it to change to a lower paying job in a LCOL city to do something I found more exciting (with some equity upside as well). There is nothing wrong with working your way up to be a trusted advisor and expert in M&A, it just wasn't what was going to drive me in the coming years.
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but any tips on how you still managed to earn the VP promotion nod while being burnt out and jaded as an Associate?
Banking is 50% performance and 50% how you network within your group. I would say the first 50% (performance) is really not that hard to stay above the threshold as an analyst or associate. I focused on just getting my work done and nothing much above that. If you do that, you will be fine. The amount of junior bankers a bank can / will force out is really less than you think, so the simple answer is answer your emails and hit your deadlines and that will be fine.
Probably important to note that this can get you to the VP level, but if you have been doing just enough performance-wise, and you have been neglecting the networking angle, this will end up being a bigger issue if you decide to stay though your VP years and beyond. More fine to do if you are an associate actively looking for an exit.
Not in IB, but CB and I think about leaving all the time. If you think IB is boring, CB is really fucking boring. Then I remind myself that I can’t think of many jobs that will pay me $250-300K for a 50 hour work week.
Hard for me to let go because the pay and WLB is solid, all things considered. Should also be up for promo to Director in another 1/2 yrs and my comp will go up to $400K, and I’ll still be working 50 hrs. Not bad for late 20’s/early 30’s. But the work still sucks….
How long does it take to move up the CB ladder at various firms from BBs to regionals? I feel like in coverage banking it may be fun building relationships with different clients or am I mistaken? Of course I'm still in shallow water but Im just wondering if its still a great career builder. Especially if one of clients wants to add you to their team for an executive level type position.
I work in a coverage team and attend a good amount of client meetings with MD and VP.
No, getting invited by your client to join them as a (senior) executive is NOT common at all. In fact, clients KNOW that MDs usually don't understand their industries as well as they do.
I have seen it happen, but my guess is either the VP/D/MD has an extremely close personal connection, some sort of family connection, or is a rock-star not seen in years.
For example, the Chinese company SenseTime hired their CFO a couple of years before they initiate their IPO plan. Their CFO or senior investment director was a VP at BAML.
Can't deny it's a safe way to make some nice cash. How is your lifestyle?
Is it possible to move from let's say a VP in IB to a senior role in CB? Those numbers sound pretty fucking good considering the WLB
I’m wondering this too. I see how revved up some of the senior bankers (D/MD) get about deals or even literal conversations with management teams and I’m just not sure I have it. I realized once after a pitch, the MD was actually nice enough to speak with the juniors after about the meeting…but I mean literally nothing happened in that meeting. He sent them the deck, they page flipped, called the ideas interesting…that was it. That got him really excited though and he was genuinely grateful for the quality of the deck we put together, which as usual could have been half the size.
Can you even make it to MD without being gung-ho?
Great post OP. Speaking myself as a 32yr old PE senior associate (shortly to become a VP) the loss of interest/burnout at the mid-level ranks is 100% real. I've seen it happen to various colleagues/ex-colleagues, and also have experienced it myself (especially over the last 12 months or so). A few reasons why this happens:
1. Repetitiveness - as others have said, after a while every deal starts to look the same. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy my job and find it reasonably stimulating - but I remember as an IB analyst when I got staffed on my first live deal, I was absolutely jazzed - I literally couldn't wait to get involved. Then even more so as an associate when you get more interaction with the client and their management. Especially if it's a big/public deal in the news - you think "wow I'm helping make this deal."
Then fast-forward a few years - over time deal execution becomes a lot easier as you gain experience, however it also becomes quite repetitive. At the end of the day, no matter the sector or company or whether it's a $10bn deal or $100bn - fundamentally it's all the same stuff. Also in IB you have this weird dynamic where you work side-by-side with your equivalent(s) in the client company and get to know them quite well, and then the deal closes and they seemingly disappear (not their fault, everyone moves on). You do end up working with the same people regularly so it's important to build a reputation, but I still find it strange where you interact with people every day for months on end and then don't talk to them for a couple of years until the next deal.
I'm obviously in PE now but it's effectively the same but on the other side. The good thing about PE is once you make an acquisition it doesn't end there, you have to make it work (and hopefully reap the rewards). But that's also the bad thing about PE - as it also means you frequently have to get sucked into the nitty-gritty operational stuff which can be pretty dull at times, especially when it's just a case of handholding portfolio co management or producing the quarterly valuation decks for your internal committee.
2. Real life happens - by that I mean as you grow up and get into your late 20s/early 30s, you realize that work isn't as important as you once thought it was. Don't get me wrong, my job is a huge part of my life/identity (sure it's the case with most ppl on WSO) but at the same time you see your friends get married/have kids etc and when you meet up with them that becomes the main thing you all talk about, rather than work. And trust me, "prestige" and rankings are the last thing anyone talks about now, even when I meet up with my ex-IB colleagues - these days we chat about holidays we've taken, the wife & kids, who has bought a house etc.
3. The grind gets to you - I think part of this is the increasingly high opportunity cost as you get older. When you're 21 years old, what are you really doing with your free time honestly? Probably just drinking with your buddies, going to the gym, watching Netflix and pron. Obviously you'd rather do that then work, but realistically if you have to work on the weekends or until 11pm at night, you're not missing out on that much whilst at the same time building your career and gaining valuable experience.
Contrast that to your late 20s/early 30s - whilst the worklife balance is much better at that point, the opportunity cost is much higher. For instance if you have a wife and kids, having to work super-late because some analyst has blown up a model does hurt. And if you're still single then having to stand up a girl on a first date for the 100th time in your life also gets old too. Plus when you were 21 you could finish work at midnight and still go and meet your bros on a Friday/Sat night - forget doing that at 30, when many of your friends might have to arrange childcare in advance and can't stay out past 11:30pm!
And at the same time you're also not getting the same steep learning curve you had in your early 20s - whilst you're obviously getting paid much more, you're also not really learning anything new executing your 101st deal compared to the 100th. So at that point you're really putting up with late-night fire drills/weekend plans being ruined for the pay and nothing else. Of course if you'd told me at 21 I could make $250-300k+ a year by the time I was 30, I would have said I'd work 100hr weeks for a year to get that pay. But like anything you get used to it/adjust your lifestyle (or at least your savings rate) to match.
So that takes me on to the final point:
4. Money/golden handcuffs is a double-edged sword. Don't get me wrong, I'm really fortunate to be earning such a great salary compared to the average person. But what they say about golden handcuffs is true - low to mid six figures is only really going to get you an upper middle-class lifestyle (unless you live in a LCOL area), whilst it's great to have money you won't be living some insanely lavish lifestyle unless you want to have no savings. As you said in your post OP, there are people I know who "ball out" on super-expensive food and wine, ostentatious luxury brands for Instagram etc. For many of them (like the guys you mention) I think it might be their way of over-compensating/filling the void. But for all their social media posts, I very much doubt they're living in a mansion - probably a nice house or condo somewhere, maybe with a nice car too, but living very much an upper middle-class life rather than being a millionaire. And knowing you have to work the next 30 years in a job you find unfulfilling to support that nice but not super-luxurious lifestyle can be quite soul-destroying I imagine.
Finally, at VP-level whilst you're not making millions you're also not cheap - you're still making many multiples of the average person (and even an IB analyst). So I think there's always a pressure (maybe even sub-conscious) that you need to constantly perform and be on edge, else there may come a time when you're cut - and trust me, no F500 company is going to pay an ex IB VP $500k+ a year to process corporate development deals.
Anyway sorry that was a bit of a stream-of-consciousness - hope that makes sense (or at least some of it). Like I said whilst I have my doubts about my job long-term, there's no other occupation I can think of (that I'm qualified for) that would pay anywhere near the same amount whilst also being intellectually stimulating. As others have said, maybe the answer is to find more meaning in activities outside of the workplace (as at the end of the day you can love your work but it won't love you back).
Great post.
This was depressing to read fuck. Sounds like doing all this in a LCOL is the only way to get out of this mess really
Agree - I love NYC and enjoy every aspect of it. But truth be told, you need a very high paying job to be able to live here. I have not come to turns with moving to LCOL.
Great post. Where do you plan to go next, if you don't mind me asking? Sounds like you are mentally out of the Rat Race already.
I mean for the foreseeable future I’ll stay in my current role (especially as due to make VP shortly). Don’t get me wrong I still work hard and fine the day-to-day relatively stimulating, but definitely feeling a general malaise setting in (which I think Covid/wfh has probably exacerbated).
So short/medium-term, I won’t be going anywhere (as mentioned there’s realistically no other career/job out there I’m qualified for which would pay anywhere near as much whilst still being generally pretty interesting). Long term is quite a different question - not sure I can picture myself sticking at this for the next 20-30 years but who knows I guess.
Idk I feel like $100bn deal would be different
Thank for the input. You are saying your top TMT group was relatively interesting compared to your current role, even if you thought your current finance role in a tech firm WOULD be more interesting?
Do I understand this correctly? Tbh I think corp dev roles are boring, and I haven't been applying for that kind of roles at all.
Want to bring back this discussion again.
Curious if IB VP can exit to PE as either Senior Associate or VP?
It's tough as a VP. You're too expensive to be an associate / work monkey and too junior to have meaningful relationships to source. Have seen it done but almost every time I've come across it, they've bounced down to associate.
I don't know if you're talking about exiting the entire finance world or just exiting IB.
I left at VP level because other areas of finance (namely public investing and early stage investing) interested me more, even if I'd have to take a massive pay cut early on. Which I did . . it' hard to get into a buy side rule as a VP, so I found a family office that would pay me way less in exchange for giving me control over investment strategy (and consequently, my day). I figured I'd make more money doing that over the long run because I'd be good at it. Haven't quite caught up to the curve yet; I'm making around what VPs made at the time I left several years ago . . but of course my cohort makes more now. A few are MDs making way more.
Nonetheless, very happy with the decision because I'm moving forward in an area where I think I can keep adding to my craft and climbing to the top, vs. IB where I felt I had no edge on others and was going to only be mediocre if I stayed.
I think it's fine to want money, provided you also want the things money will buy for you. For me, money is only useful to the extent it buys my freedom. Beyond that, I really don't care. But if people truly enjoy the finer things then by all means, go for it. I'm glad I never acquired those tastes.
Thanks. I think your last sentence is gold.
Had an older friend in the same spot who started some businesses on the side. He set up a liquor stores in a young part of town and has since expanded to three in the last five years and is in the process of embarking on his true dream of opening a cheap chill bar.
What are your thoughts on this space?
Its all about location. They tend to be steady earners. The great thing is the industry is so regulated that you can't have more than a certain number of liquor stores in a radius. So essentially you would never compete against each other like restaurants. As long as you can scope out a good location, has a ton of potential. Heavy startup cost - my friend invested around 150k or so for license, inventory, store set up etc. But from what I heard; he pulled around 200-300k in profit after taking a cut for himself from each store (stores in Queens/Brooklyn) and will only grow. Keep in mind this is only for his stores, typically are lower, he just happened to do some great locations scouting/inventory and has very competitive pricing. He could reasonably sell each store for appx. 1.5MM now but he wants to keep opening more.
For his next endeavor, he is planning on potentially opening a small bar in Manhattan and leveraging the supply in his stores to keep costs low and have competitive pricing on higher end stuff. But he is very early in that right now.
VP in my group exited out to SVP at Corp devp i think SVP is same as MD in banking
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