GS Analyst Survey Results
Liquidity dropped what all of us feel... the real question is does anything come of this? Do senior bankers change anything at all? Are analysts lucky to even be paid?
Mod Note (April 14, 2021) - Here are some related discussions showing how things have changed since the GS survey was released:
- Barclays Response to GS Survey https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/thoughts-o…
- BofA raises junior banker base salaries by at least 10%.
- Credit Suisse Giving 20k Bonuses?
- Deutsche Bank response to GS survey and WFH culture
- WTF is Goldman Sachs Doing
- UBS Addresses Goldman Sachs Survey
- Wells Fargo NOT addressing deck we made 3 MONTHS AGO OR GS survey
- Blair one time bonus https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/william-bl…
- Perspectives from a mid-VP who started as an analyst
- My junior monkeys, want real change?
So, prospects, are 98% of you still willing to give handjobs to old fat men to land GS IBD?
I'm willing to give old thin men handjobs for free but I would never give a fatty a handjob. Have standards!!
This generation is so weak.
You are at the best bank and you are crying help and people are giving you a break while you make 5x the median income straight out of college.
Earn your paycheck and stop being a p*ssy
Imagine being so fucked up in the head, that you think a little bit of money justifies treating another person as sub-human.
There's no question that long periods of sleep deprivation have a diminishing affect on work output. Especially with all the toxic levels of anxiety that are produced by that kind of mental exhaustion. At a certain point, it has to be taking more and more time just to put out the same level of work, and I think that's where the diminishing returns come into play. You end up taking 2 hours to do something that would have taken you 45 minutes with a sharp mind and 7 hours of sleep.
One thing I will say, from my own experience as a firefighter, is the type of sleep deprivation in firefighting is far more sudden and unpredictable. Sure, in IB you could have an MD ping you at the last second when you're about to hit the pillow at 2am for an emergency 2 hour fire drill, and that may be relatively unexpected. But it's not a total shock to the system, its a long term compounding affect on your mental capacity. In firefighting, you're getting suddenly and violently awoken from a deep sleep cycle at 3 am by a 100 decible klaxon alarm to get up and immediately get behind the wheel of a 40 ton vehicle. That is a much different beast than long term consistent sleep deprivation. I remember being woken up for those late night calls at 3-4am and being so out of it I'd practically take a header down the stairs to the engine bay. The slow burn of IB can drive you insane, but it always felt like the acute shocks to the system in firefighting had much higher stakes.
At ubs...it's the same here. Want to die
Damn, what about the yoga mats and leaving the office at 7pm?
More seriously, I didn't know UBS was this hard, goodluck man.
people need to call out these banks by name. UBS is a sweatshop right now (wasn't before WFH).
I am looking to leave ASAP. my entire group wants to leave. the staffers have no power to change it
if the bank doesnt do something immediately to stop the 100hr weeks they will see insane turnover (and good luck with the new laterals you hope to hire...)
Culture in this group was actually pretty solid where analysts and associates were staffed on 1 live deal at a time with no other work (like books for meetings) but hours were 80-ish when on a deal. However, once the deal closed, you were only staffed on non-urgent / non-deal things for at least 3-4 months during which hours were 60-70 max, with many weeks being less. Seniors and juniors were all pretty nice and respectful as well (save for 1-2 seniors who were still way better than at many places with terrible cultures).
However, since COVID, the group specifically the TMT team has been extremely crushed. All semblance of a culture has disappeared to the point where if you don't send a farewell email, no one will have even known or cared if you left. Any semblance of group infrastructure or templates that the group has tried to maintain has retreated several steps as both analysts and associates are so jammed that they don't have time to worry about it, leading to the recreation of several materials and analyses whose PPT and Excel back-ups could never be found on the drive. Even after the NY and SF groups decided to merge to help with the deal flow, things have been very bad. The NY team had much fewer hours than the SF team but now are working just as hard at 100+ hours. And yes, all juniors are getting staffed on workstreams even though they all put 100+ hours on their timesheets. While I know all the people in our group are nice people, the strong deal flow has forced all seniors and juniors to work non-stop. Even Saturday policies (which used to be heavily monitored) are now often ignored or the work has been so much that though we are not supposed to work on Saturdays, many analysts and associates are forced to work so they don't fall behind on Sundays. Since bonuses hit recently, people have been leaving so much that every week, someone is sending out at least one farewell email.
BTW, associates are getting as crushed as analysts as we often have to split up the work with the analyst or completely do it for them given how busy they already are themselves. While I don't think associates should not be opening Excel and PPT files, it is very clear that analysts are so crushed that associates have no choice but to turn comments and help out in a significant way.
As someone who considers themselves a veteran of the group based on tenure, it's insane to see what COVID has done to the group's dynamics. I've also heard that there is no way there will be a full return to the office until 2022 and MDs will not be returning to the office given they believe they do not need to be in the office as their business is revenue generation. So expect another year of back-to-back Zoom meetings and getting staffed on three live deals at least regardless if you are an analyst or associate.
It's 13 Analysts griping about the job to each other and publishing the results on GS PPT headers. This wasn't some sort of broad HR survey, and if it was, they certainly wouldn't have "selected" those quotes. Not diminishing the truth of it, but absolutely nothing will come of this other than probable disciplinary action against whoever created and leaked that document.
EDIT: People MS'ing me have never spent any time actually working for a bank. This sort of feedback has existed since the dawn of time. Yes, it's worse right now, and I'm not arguing against that. But GS HR is not going to call this kid into and office and pat him on the back for creating a document like this on company letterhead and sending it to a public meme account.
13 analysts is a significant number. I think it’s fair to say they are representative of a broader theme...
13 Analysts is like half of one group. 90% of you people were Econ majors. You took statistics classes. If you actually polled however many Analysts GS actually has (hundreds), it would settle somewhere in the comfortable middle, with comments that HR could cherry pick to make it seem no worse than normal. And that's not because things aren't worse than normal, it's because most people, if surveyed, will not skewer their employer because they know their employer can see their individual response.
Take this for what it is. A couple like-minded Analysts who have been getting railed that wanted to air their grievances on Instagram for fun. This is not some scandal that is going to change anything in this industry for the better.
You sound like a major fucking tool. You’re part of the problem and I guarantee your analysts hate working for you.
Mgmt right now:
https://imgur.com/a/v0ckTUm
I have sent this to every semi sketchy right wing news source I follow (they hate Goldman Sachs for.....reasons).
Expect this to blow up. they love the occasional goldman hit piece
Work at a different bank, but can echo that the hours and the stress are the same. Since January it's been completely crashing and it's a month than i'm north of 100hrs per week. The saddest thing is that you / your team start hoping deals do not go through as we're all well above our max capacity.
They say learning curve is steep, which is true. Anyway once you're so tired you don't learn any longer. That's at least what I'm experiencing
Careful there. David Solomon may now have another story about how his lazy analysts where wasting time filling a survey instead of working themselves to death
I thought this was fake because formatting is so ugly lmao
Bad take by Andrew Ross Sorkin here
Sorkin is a complete suck up to the big banks. His book too big to fail was basically a homoerotic love letter to Jamie dimon(srs). He wouldnever denigrate these firms because hed lose access.
I've started to staff myself strategically on projects with low intensity MDs. Been helping my hours significantly
(Not directly related to topic)
I just wanted to say their slides look trash.
Left margin way too wide, right margin too narrow
First chart not center aligned / dragged across the entire slide
Why does source start from where it is currently starting from? Should it be aligned to the left of the GS logo???????????????????
pls fix thx
people like you are why IB is complete JOKE
focuses more on format vs actual message
meanwhile some tech quant doesnt give a phuck about formatting and hes making millions a year working on actual problems that require thought vs prettying up a powerpoint page like a complete corporate cuck
the "tech quant" stuff that ur dickriding basically just means momentum/trend follow, HFT options market making, or scalping lol...
doesnt rly involve much "thought" or "working on actual problems" and doesnt rly add much to society either
not defending banking culture or anything but ur just spitting out buzzwords tbh
That Haggarty-Weir guy sounds like the biggest fucking prick
Strong correlation between # of letters after your name and level of ahole-ness
Meanwhile Jefferies...
as much as i hate AOC and Elizabeth Warren, I hope they get wind of this and start twitter blasting Goldman (something they like to do already) about this. AOC you are my only hope
would make Goldman Board of Directors pucker up REAL fast
If the average time you’re going to sleep is 3 am, odds are you’re either wildly inefficient at your job, or just suck, or some combination thereof. And yes, even if you’re at a BB like GS. I’ve done IB at both a BB and boutique, these reports are either extreme outliers or exaggerations
or your vp/sr associate/director above you sucks
my VP emails me all night asking for updates NOW. it never ends
same with my MDs. we do calls at midnight
fuck off
How are people surprised? This is so ridiculous.
If you were an analyst and you didn’t work this much, you were super lucky and/or didn’t get the real experience.
If you are/were an analyst, you should not be surprised by this.
If you are/were an analyst and work this much, you probably knew what you were getting into.
If you aren’t/weren’t an analyst and are surprised by this data, well you weren’t an analyst so you don’t really know.
I’m betting lots of these kids didn’t believe what they were getting into. And yes WFH = your home is now a full time office.
Dude people like you are the exact problem in this industry.
No one signed up to be working 20 hours in a small room without any actual human interaction (other than roommates or family) for most of the day. Shut up if you’re not experience this WFH scenario, you don’t know what’s really like.
100% this. With respect even ex-IBers on here have no idea how much worse it must be wfh as a first/second-year analyst, compared to being in the office like before - I'm a 30yr old in PE and I can't begin to imagine what it must be like for juniors now. I mean while IB has always been ridiculously intense, as a junior analyst you at least got to work in a nice office, have camaraderie with your fellow analysts, go for drinks/blow off steam etc, and perhaps most importantly get mentorship/contact with more senior people.
All that is gone now. Additionally with the pandemic, there are limited recreational activities for analysts in the free time they actually do get - whilst this is a problem we're all suffering with (myself included) it must be so much worse if you're constantly doing 100+ hrs a week and the only bright spot on your horizon is a couple of hours of Netflix in your small shared apartment.
The sad thing is senior management at all banks (not just GS) don't really seem to care. They're likely living in large suburban houses with slick office setups, get to set up more client meetings over Zoom, have no commute and can spend much more time with their family. So they see the move to wfh as a huge positive and can't understand why anyone would think differently.
Perhaps even sadder is this isn't just limited to IB (although it is certainly more extreme here compared to other industries) - if you read the comments section of the FT/WSJ on any wfh article, the top-rated comments are all from people saying "I'm never going back to the office, I can't understand why anyone would go back unless they're a mindless work-drone." It seems as if anyone over the age of 30-35 has somehow completely forgotten how they made their industry contacts, and that work drinks/socializing and friendships are often a vital part of getting through the high workload as a junior in any industry. That or they have all their industry contacts/reputation already, and just don't give a sh*t about juniors today.
Normally I hate any talk of generational warfare online, i.e. boomers vs snowflakes. But I have to say (as a 30yr old guy) that the boomer generation really seem to have screwed over young people during this pandemic. I mean whilst quarantining was obviously the right thing to do, let's face the fact it was done primarily to protect older people. And in return instead of the younger generation getting gratitude/support, they've been condemned to an era of high unemployment and permanent working from home in many industries (which may very likely stunt their professional growth/career opportunities badly). My heart really goes out to any junior IB analyst (and any young person really) right now.
It’s much easier to work in a bullpen alongside other fellow analysts whom you can occasionally shoot the shit with. Working til 5am alone in your room day in day out and moving 2 feet to and from your desk all day is incredibly taxing.. compounded with sleeping 4 hours a night and having no free time to leave your home and experience the world even on the weekend because fuck, there’s a live deal. This is inhumane, plain and simple.
I work at a small PE shop in the middle market, and sent my partner the Jefferies email as a joke (close knit firm) and home boy gave me a $25 chipotle gift card and a used bevmo giftcard.
From the Reuters newswire discussing these findings: “GS shares rallied the day after this announcement of effective employee utilization and commitment to driving results.”
I feel this is a classic example of labour market economics. In banking where there is a large over supply of undergrads who want to work in that industry, Investment Banks can abuse that monopoly power by underpaying and overworking their employees. Nothing will change unfortunately unless undergrads start voting with their feet and stop being prestige whores wanting to work for GS just because of the brand name (I myself included). Obviously this is easier said than done, but if people can get into GS (or any BB) they can certainly get into other industries. Another possibility would be that in the next 5-10 years time when these overworked analysts become MD's they can enact the change from within by being nice to their team and fostering a less harsh working environment. The problem with that is that the whole Investment Banking culture is a vicious cycle. Those who were 'abused' as analysts, when they become MD's feel that just because I suffered everyone else should suffer.
To put a long story short, as unfortunate as these results are, it is part and parcel of the IB culture. When Moritz Erherdt (analyst at BOA) died in 2013 due to exhaustion nothing has changed since then. So don't expect anything to change by this survey.
Front page of the BBC now.
Echo what others have said about how bad it must be for juniors doing WFH at 100 hours a week now. The only thing that kept me sane back then was shooting the shit with my colleagues at work. Meanwhile at Director and up, life has gotten a lot simpler with WFH because they (and I'm Director-level to be candid) just live in the suburbs, don't have to commute and can dodge physical client meetings while making juniors work at the exact same pace as ever. People saying 'being an analyst was always this bad' are missing the point entirely.
Yeah but have any of you heard how progressive they are? And how much they care about ESG?
Don’t pay any attention to the 95 hour weeks and modern form of indentured servitude
I'm so glad they support 70 billion black female owned businesses. So progressive. Wow.
To all the apologists disparaging these Analysts or telling them to leave the firm, or they make tons of money: shut up, you're part of the problem.
To everyone not currently working in front office investment banking: shut up, you have no idea what you're talking about.
This has been a systemic issue for a long time. We have to do better and we have to take problems seriously when they're brought to light by a courageous group of individuals. I don't care if it's 13 analysts or 130. If no part of that survey deck resonated with you, please send me the name of the bank you work at, group, and location, and I would love to submit an application.
The solutions proffered by the deck would be a good start in rectifying the situation. I also recognize that my role is a big part of the problem as well to manage what the MDs are giving out. We don't push back enough at the beginning of processes to shape what people are doing and when they are doing it by, and we don't push back enough toward the end of a process when things need to get finalized / double checked instead of completely redesigned.
Saying "it's the way it's always been" is not good enough. We hire really smart people and we need them at their best to actually think through the work. People are so tired and jammed, each deal is only getting 10% of our brain's attention when each of our clients are expecting it's the most important thing we have going on. This isn't acceptable anymore.
I'll do my part to voice my concerns at my own bank and try to come up with solutions. I hope others will be emboldened to do the same.
So you're telling everyone who disagrees / does't work in IB currently to shut up, why are you so defensive? Let's be very straightforward here:
Only reason you are staying in this profession at this point is pure greediness. And now you're complaining that 'oh no they're making me work hard despite overpaying me.' So you basically want absurd pay that most Americans can never even dream of while also not working hard, seriously? Stop complaining so much and realize that few MDs are going to give a shit because you are so easily replaceable from dynamic 2 above (demand >>>> supply). Find a different profession if you don't like banking. I did investing banking myself, I know it sucks and I'm sure I was mediocre at the job as well. SO I LEFT and found a great job elsewhere that also paid me 6 figures. Almost all of you in banking can do the same, stop trying to justify your greed & trying to have everything. I'll tell you the same thing a banking VP told me as he crushed me with a 90 hour week..."this is the career you chose, if you don't like it there are plenty of other things out there"
It's exacerbated by WFH but I really think senior bankers are going to have the wrong takeaway if this is what's stressed. Just get everyone back in the office and everything will be fine! No.
Remember, Analysts at Lincoln, GS, BAML, and more died because of this job stress before Covid, before WFH. There's a gigantic underlying problem that WFH is just helping to boil to the surface and make more visible. If we don't do root cause analysis and find a way to kill the root, this weed of suffering's just going to grow back with a vengeance.
EDIT: In case we forgot:
2018: Shivam Chokshi at Lincoln International: https://www.efinancialcareers.com/news/2018/07/junior-banker-dies-lincoln-international
2015: Sarvshreshth Gupta at Goldman Sachs: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/goldman-sachs-analyst-found-dead-hours-after-complaining-father-100-hour-weeks-10292977.html
2013: Moritz Erhardt at BAML: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/nov/22/moritz-erhardt-merrill-lynch-intern-dead-inquest
Said this before, but this is than already steep learning curve made even steeper by the fact that it's much harder to get help. Analysts are told something like "just get me a quick AVP and spread the comps, maybe cut out leases depending on how they're included but make sure to footnote". And to your 2nd year analyst or associate, yes, that is an easy, if annoying ask. To a first year who really doesn't know anything, they are literally googling "AVP Finance" because they have no freaking clue. And then, when they turn in a poor work product (because they don't know what they're f-ing doing and to get help you literally have to schedule time on a calendar as opposed to just tapping someone on the shoulder), they are made to feel stupid. It's a vicious cycle because it blows confidence- and like when a pitcher gets the yips, it just gets worse.
These hours are partially because of work flow and demanding superiors, but what no one is talking about is that these kids are just inefficient. And they are inefficient because management hasn't thought about how learning by yourself at home severely impairs development.
There's a cliff coming too - in May, when all the 2nd years leave, it is going to be a fucking shit show.
Reading the latest BI article on how Goldman refused to give analysts meal stipends or provide proper tech and equipment for WFH last year really makes my blood boil, even with a ton of supporting data. Senior bankers / mgmt never actually give a shit about juniors and this recent saga just highlights that even more. Always shitting on analysts when things get tough and rarely passing down the goodwill when things are going well. The only time any bank takes action is because it hits the news or is a preemptive PR move. David Solomon can go fuck himself.