How do you justify being a banker?
Currently a first-year analyst at a pretty sweaty group at GS/MS. Leaving at 2-5am during the week, 9-10pm on Fridays, and having 10-15+ hours of weekend work. Work is extremely intense and stressful. Been weeks since I had a day with less than 400 emails. Constantly getting hit with ad-hoc tasks that need to be finished within 1-2 hours. On top of that, 80-90% of the work as an analyst is simple and mundane.
With that said, I am genuinely wondering how you justify being a banker?
Some will say money. However, what makes the incremental pay vs. other well-paid professions like consulting or equity research worth all the negatives that comes with banking?
🤷♂️ money, exit opps. I think I fucked up not doing computer science. It’s the best job out of undergrad u can get from a college of business
Have you looked at the state of the tech industry recently?
Have you looked at the state of the tech industry long-term?
All that intelligence and can’t trust the right bank with your deposits 💀
Just want to point out SVB isn’t the only one in the valley. What bank a startup used often came down to which VC firms they raised capital from.
Have plenty of friends at GS/MS. I am at another large bank that would be considered much less prestigious.
But I focused on the WLB during my recruiting process and assessed which bank had the best.
Sure I dont have the GS/MS on my resume but I've closed some significant deals and my work week is usually 40-60 hours. I get paid the same as my friend (actually made more than them this year and same last year), got a beautiful girlfriend I get to hang out with on weekends, get plenty of time to hit the gym, and get to hang out with my friends occasionally. I want to be a career banker and never cared about exits.
So banking is going great for me, but GS/MS is the place to be if all you care about is getting a PE gig and need to tough it out for 2 years
Any more hints on what bank this is? Sounds like heaven
Second this
Our colors are red and yellow
Idt u got the notification from below, but he responded to me
Thanks a lot, this is really good information. Objectively, it is really worth sacrificing prestige for WLB. Especially as pay is very similar across IB. What scares me is that I would also sacrifice optionality. I'm not so sure I want to be a banker long-term and leaving for PE / Growth Equity / VC / Corp Dev could prove much more difficult from a less prestigious BB / MM bank.
agree on these points. putting in the "sweat" in your first 5-7 years in career could rly pay dividends in the later stages of career. i, for one, dont want to be pigeonholed in IB by picking a "less well known" shop which kinda fucks me and traps me more.
What a refreshing take, and really solid decisions. Good for you. I'm probably a banking lifer and it can be a really rewarding career if you can navigate it well.
I want to add to this that I worked at a BB that said they had great WLB and Culture. They did not. So don't necessarily sign with a lower bank because of "culture". Just a cautionary tale.
What bank is this? I’m at BofA and I get cooked every week so hoping you’re not saying that!
cooked? what’s your hours like on average good and bad weeks
our colors are red and yellow
people i know there put in 70-80 at the ASO level
People I know here are putting in 95+ hours in non-NYC.
Are you in a product group?
mostly people get in it for exit ops and optionality. are you constantly working around the clock on these ad hoc tasks? how many live deals and pitches r u on
Staffed on 4 projects atm. Not constantly working on these ad-hoc tasks but they take up a lot of time for me. It is usually process stuff that comes up for late-stage deals. These tasks are usually supposed to be simple stuff such as sending out an overview of the process to the client. Simple copy-paste tasks. However, then the associate has some input on the formatting, then the VP asks to add some information and then the MD thinks it would be "interesting" to also have some other information. What initially was a 5-minute task then ends up being 2-3 hours of emails back and forth before everyone is OK with something like a simple table.
lmao hilarious i feel u; simple shit that seems simple turns it to a whole barrage of comments/formatting/making things look pretty. that is the job i guess we signed up for
nothings ever simple on a IB ppt slide. can change the wording, formatting, logo choice, axis i mean shit the list goes on
Same boat as you, good bank, getting fucking crushed. I’m considering moving to consulting, the extra 20-30k post tax not worth the sweat if you can go to MBB
Sorry to hear that. I feel like an idiot for not going the MBB route. Much better hours. More interesting work. Pay is worse, but from what I understood the difference in pay becomes smaller with experience. Moreover, your exit options are probably better than IB. You can exit to PE, growth equity, VC, strategy roles, start-up roles, corp dev etc. You will surely have to work harder to get a spot at a top PE firm coming from consulting compared to GS / MS / JPM but still very possible.
I think about this everyday. I’m pretty sure the long term trajectory between working at MBB at the junior level and BB at the junior has to be pretty comparable in every regard. With the current state of the market, unless you love finance and the scope of work, IB is obviously not worth it on the short term pay horizon compared to MBB.
based on looking at exits of IB vs MBB, its much easier to go from IB to PE/growth equity brand name shops. the brand name firms still prefer the pedigree of IB. i think consulting tends to lean heavily towards strategy roles at coprorate/startup but not the "traditional exits" of MM/UMM/MF PE or top GE shops
Yes, it is definitely easier from banking. However, I think it is also important to point out that there is a likely bias. First of all, you probably have 10-15 BBs and EBs that are considered reputable enough to have a shot at most PE funds. Meanwhile, you only have 3 tier-1 consulting firms. With that said, your pool of consultants is much smaller. For example, McKinsey has a total of 4,300 employees in NYC (including all back-office staff etc, so probably 2-3,000 are consultants) while GS has 3,000 employees in IB in NYC.
It should also be mentioned that most consultants do not want to pursue a career in PE. Most consultants chose a career in consulting because they were not interested in a career in finance. Meanwhile, pretty much everyone who enters IB wants to end up in PE. As such, I think it's very unfair to look at the number of consultants vs. the number of bankers in PE. There are much fewer consultants at MBB than there are bankers at the tier-1 banks and most of those consultants don't want to work in PE anyways.
true ur spot on with that take.
Doing the math here and depending on when you get to work, you are close to pulling 100 hour weeks every week which is not sustainable.
Make sure people understand that you will be late getting them their stuff because you keep receiving time sensitive ad hoc requests. It’s senior bankers job to make sure things are staffed appropriately.
Ad hoc requests are the worst, for the most part, people who request them act like you only work for them. I would not hesitate to say, “if I do this X request, I will not be able to complete Y task in the requested timeline, happy to prioritize accordingly if you recommend.”
Analysts who are grinding 85 hours a week instead of 100 don’t get fired and still get a middle bucket solid bonus number. I think some slight pushback and a ~15 improvement to your WLB will greatly improve your banking experience. Mundane work probably not going anywhere though. Good luck
You can't justify it, you just cope.
Many of us were much better organized than you. Much better at navigating the office than you. And much better at pushing back when over worked than you.
It’s not so much how others justify working at banking.
It’s accepting that many of us worked normal, albeit heavy hours compared to 9 to 5 office jobs, and we didn’t struggle balancing work and life.
You could try crying about it.
Or perhaps leaving, since this is America and no one is forcing you to do anything you don’t want.
So sigma bro. Please don't reproduce for the sake of this world
Thanks for weighing in prospect, as usual tremendous color and insightful response from someone who has never earned one penny in the real world lol.
you missed the whole point. OP is not saying that IB is hard, he asks about the existentialism/meaning aspect of it: why would someone endure this lifestyle
even if he's crushed 100hr/week, 70/80hr doesn't change the premise of why someone would give himself so much to a job
for the sake of it, you're a Director, what pushed you to get into IB and stay for so long??
And you missed my point that most of us don’t give so much to the job.
We are organized and intelligent and get in and out, while making the most of our downtime, and doing a good job pushing back on non-priorities. And if the job did start to affect us negatively, we would leave.
Get it now?
Sounds tough. Curious how long it’s been like this for and whether it’s consistently bad from the start.
If you’re planning to exit soon then I suppose there is an end in sight.
i dont need to justify shit
..
I’m being paid above average to move logos and do simple math, there are kids working at factories making $1 an hour. All about perspective .
I can’t anymore. I’m two years into my stint and I desperately want out. I think other routes can get you there in due time.
Sorry to hear that, hope you make it out and find something better!
Two ways to justify a role:
Early on in IB, you do both these. I know it’s hard to see the Forest for the trees, but the skills you learn in IB can be applied everywhere. It almost doesn’t matter the field you end up in. The basics of finance, M&A/capital raising, the intensity and dealing with difficult people, all are awesome skills to get early in a role. Post when your learning flattens, the money trade off for hours often isn’t there for most people. That’s why the programs are generally 2 years. If you reach the point where you are questioning if it’s worth it, let me be the first to tell you, it isn’t worth it. If you have to ask if the price is worth it, you aren’t in a job your really love or you are sacrificing too much to have it be worth it.
If you have concrete financial goals like payoff loans, get a down payment for a house, make x amount by x age, or if you just really are interested by the material because you are learning, the hours don’t feel long. If you start asking why you are doing the job and if something else is better, it’s time to start looking for a new role.
worse case you go somewhere else, hate it, and gain conviction that IB is the right role for you, best case you find your dream job or get closer to it. Judging by the fact that almost no one leaves IB and comes back, you can likely assume it’s the second and not the former. Hard to find someone who leaves IB and comes back which should tell you something about the industry and how people feel about the trade offs.
I think if it's like that for 2 years straight, it's hard to justify.
But it gets quite a bit easier for 2nd years. Same work, but you know the shortcuts and you also have the confidence you'll get it done, which removes the noise and makes you even more efficient.
Had a similar experience with similar hours. Burned out during my second year where instead of getting easier, just lead to more responsibility and more difficult staffings. Ended up switching out of "high finance." Still somewhat regret the decision because of the potential trajectory but at the time I was physically and mentally exhausted and had completely lost interest in finance as a subject and the career path looking forward by staying in IB (was initially my goal when I started) or following the herd into PE.
If you begin feeling similarly, I'd recommend voicing these concerns to your team and slowing down, even if it gets you mid or bottom bucket (doubtful) while finishing the stint. Will keep your optionality whether you choose this path or something else. Can easily pursue consulting or ER or anything else afterwards. If I could go back, I'd try less hard and at least finish my stint and would've tried something like ER afterwards instead of completely leaving financial services. But that's just my experience. I don't think many people regret leaving banking so I'm sure plenty of others' anecdotes will counter mine.
I guess I justify it by never having worked those crazy hours very consistently (although definitely pulled a couple all-nighters even as VP) and still generally getting paid more than my equivalent at GS (other than 2021). Certainly my bank is considered tiers below GS but have still closed M&A deals in the billions and even $10bn+ (once), always as exclusive or lead advisor. My colleagues are very cool, my bosses extremely supportive, and always lavish me with praise and make me feel valued. I didn't have plans to exit so having the GS/MS brand wasn't relevant to me but I guess the question was how I justified being a banker, not how I justified working at a lesser brand name and sacrificing exit opps.
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