How many people actually "Made it" ?
Most of us are very ambitious, high-achieving people. Many people in finance (obviously) want financial freedom and independence, which is why a lot of us entered finance in the first place.
Tons of people going into IB (prospects) aim for tail outcomes -- 100M+ Net Worth, MF PE Partner, HF PM making 8 figures, etc. However, only a very very small percentage of people in finance will ever reach this type of success. And as we get older, we begin to temper our expectations and aim for something far more realistic.
I'm curious to hear especially from older bankers/finance people, how many people do you know that truly "made it" -- where they could retire today and not have to worry about money ever again. And what do they do? Are they still in finance?
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I’ll admit it. Haven’t made it, don’t care to make it. Priorities in my life changed a number of years ago and I value my own pursuits vs. career pursuits.
I work hard, run a respected corporate development team with loyal team members, and live a life I love indulging in the things I choose to. This isn’t the Park Ave Penthouse and home in the Hamptons with a helipad. But a home I love in a good zip code with all the attributes I could ask for. Was able to write a check for a $70k car a few years ago. Car salesman (a referral who sucked, all car salesmen suck in my experience) was aghast as to why someone would pay cash when the going new car rate at the time was 4% or so. I live frugally and refuse to pay interest (sans a mortgage, which I also abhor).
At this point in my life, I’m happy being a passenger in the corporate train car of life. I see the conductor of the corporation regularly, they have a life I don’t value nor desire, despite their 8 figure net worths and second/third homes (also second or third wife) across the county.
I applaud everyone who’s hungry for success and chooses to get after it in a balanced manner, though is not for everyone. Getting after it while sacrificing health, family, or your soul is another story I don’t tolerate. But for the person who doesn’t want to trade it all for golden coffin to be laid in someday, I respect that too. Nothing wrong with wanting life balance, which frankly is frowned upon in many financial services tracks.
Hey, thanks for sharing. Super helpful.
In regards to the car, isn't it better to not pay with cash since you're able to invest that extra money (and presumably get a return higher than the interest rate on the car)?
But it's super impressive that you're able to buy a 70k car with cash, lol. My parents would only be able to put in like a 5k down payment lol. What are your hours/WLB like?
With debt and invest the difference comes a lot of assumptions. First, you’ll be able to service the debt. Second, that your investment will appreciate in value. Third, crap like gap coverage needs to be added to insurance in case the car is wrecked and the insurance settlement doesn’t cover the loan balance.
I worked through the financial crisis and lost my job with many of my peers while watching my investments ride the market to a low of a 70% decline in some cases. I choose to live a low debt lifestyle as jobs in finance often are based on the market which none of us have control over. We can control our leverage and risk, which I do conservatively allowing me to sleep easy at night.
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Lol do prospects ACTUALLY aim for 100M+ net worth? That's a mind-boggling sum
For real! I had no clue what I really wanted to do out of UG. Even now, with a more clear-cut path and some good money behind me, even I don't think $100M is an attainable or desired number. I greatly respect WolfofWSO for his writeup, and generally concur with his story. Older I get, the more I care about my family, and less about that new Porsche.
Attainable? No. Desired? Yesyesyesyesyeyseyseyesyesyesyesyesyeeyseyseysyeyseysyesyesyesyeyse....
same way everyone on this forum hate on apollo (thread has like 400 comments) but secretly wants to work there
That’s my goal
I have learned to become comfortable in my constant state of failure. Now I’m always happy :)
One must imagine Sisyphus happy...
I wonder how many people here caught the Camus ref. Good for you for being well-rounded.
One must.
How is $200k in NYC in your mid 20s working 40 hours a week failing? Seriously man you’re in so small of a bubble it’s a little startling even for an active user of WSO.
My comment was mostly made in jest.
But we all have our own individual goals and paths. Personally, I’m still pretty far from achieving my goals. But I’m happy with my progress so far.
Obviously hard to quantify but I'm curious of the number of people who were insanely driven and willing to do whatever it takes who made it. A lot of people are interested in IB and finance but they burnout or prioritise WLB or simply don't work as hard as other people. Not trying to come off as a hardo but some people I see are willing to drop everything and go above and beyond in literally everything they do so it's hard to imagine them not becoming successful.
The thing is, everyone thinks they want to work that hard out of college... until they start working 80-100 hours a week and realize that it isn't worth the pain and sacrifice -- especially given how it's not even guaranteed / insanely hard to move up in PE/HF.
People's priorities change as they get older and realize that a few hundred k is still great, and most people don't want to have no life for 20 years to make MD (at the expense of family, friends, free time)
I know people like that -- they went to top schools, graduated top of their class, and were a "hardo" out of college (IB to MF PE) but quickly realized it's not worth the stress and pain.
It's why I genuinely think being a FAANG or Big N SWE is a better proposition for most people (500k for 20 hours a week)
How does one go from IB to FAANG or Big N SWE?
The $500K FAANG job for 20 hours is very misleading. These people are extremely smart and have pretty demanding weeks of 80+ if not more. Like in finance, there are slow weeks but to say is 20 hour weeks for $500K is misleading. In addition, the intelligence level is way higher than what is required of a traditional banking analyst.
What stage are you in? Are the people you see willing to drop everything still in college who are recruiting for IB (and may have gotten a FT), or are they PE associates who grind, or are they VPs who are still willing to drop everything and go above and beyond. Cuz obviously there's an immense difference lol. VPs who are willing to drop everything will probs make MD, the college senior who holds an FT offer for EVR who is 'willing to drop everything' might end up making YT videos about getting into IB lol
2 of my LPs have a finance background and "made it".
-One actively at an HF pulling low 7 fig
-Another retired after crushing it at an HF in his late twenties. I think he must have ~$15m - $20m.
Im on my way
The Mexican Fisherman Vs The Harvard MBA - The Bucket List Guy
Great story I always reflect back to. OPs post in a nutshell is pretty absurd.
Making it as in having financial independence, freedom to pursue whatever, and maybe some form of passive income or side income is achievable for most and a much happier pursuit than grinding 80-100 hours a week for all your youth
I'm still fairly young (<30....for now) without a net worth anywhere near what some other peers have accumulated. I consider myself fairly smart, but didn't go to the right schools (not because I couldn't, but because I literally didn't know what difference it made at the time), but everywhere I've gone I've done really well for myself. So from the outside looking in, I've always hustled. And I've hustled because in my mind I've always seen myself in one of those elusive end roles that everyone seemingly aspires to be. But here I am, a Corp Dev/Finance Manager for a portco....work a reasonable amount of hours, make a pretty good salary in a pretty LCOL city, and the kicker here is that I am LEARNING. Learning way more about my industry and the nuances of actually operating a business has been invaluable. I still have high asperations, but they've shifted a bit...my goal now is to be a CFO or COO type, and within this construct that actually feels attainable. But now that I found the right setup/infrastructure to foster that, there's no desire to "grind" to get there so to speak.
Is it looked down upon/unhealthy to aim for that 100 MM+ Net Worth when young and starting even if you know it's not realistic/odds are against you?
In my opinion, its sort of, shoot for the moon and you'll land amongst the stars type of mentality. Obviously as mentioned above, mentality shifts as you get older, but was thinking that at a young age this mentality can be helpful to really put your head down and grind to get ahead. Am I being delusional?
I’m 45. Shoot for the moon and land in the stars is a very very good strategy.
Stars are further than the moon.
Maybe if you crash really hard on the moon you'll bounce to a star? I don't know.
My mindset on it has always been, I’d rather come up short and achieve 50% of a 1B goal than 100% of a 10MM goal.
Nice math skillz there, I’m gonna pick that 500MM
Average cringe RE guy ^
I think one of the big incorrect assumptions that people have is those who are high achievers early on in their lives will continue to be high achievers as they become older. It's like when fans and pundits gush over a young gun, believing that they're already destined for the hall of fame. What they don't realize is that rookies are unknown entities. When opposing teams start watching the tape and game-planning to stop them, that's when we see the real generational talents. Look up what happened to Ricky Mirer, one of the biggest QB busts in NFL history, when defensive coordinators figured out the guy couldn't throw to his left.
In the same vein, most of us are set up for success in our youth. Participation trophies, honor roll, the list goes on and on and on. Think about the number of bullshit awards that high schools hand out to students. There is logic to all of this. We want to encourage children and teens to take risks and try new things, so even if they come up short, we still reward them for the effort. College is a bigger step up, but it's still mostly the same deal. Show up to class, complete assignments, do the practice exam that every professor gives out, and you should be able to get a decent enough gpa. Heck, I've even seen classmates create a bullshit club, attend a few bullshit meetings, and put it one their resume.
Once you graduate and go out into the real world though, that's when everything changes. There are no more clear-cut paths, and people won't be handing you trophies and rewards for fun. As you climb up the ladder, it becomes harder and harder to just bullshit your way through everything. Eventually, you end up in a position, regardless of industry, where if you don't produce, you either stagnate or are shown the door. Just like sports, this is where the real stars emerge. Long story short, a lot of young high achievers think they're hot shit and on the path to success, when they and everyone else them haven't even realized that they never had a chance to begin with.
This doesn't fully answer the original question, but with the exception of a few professions, the best way to "make it" is through ownership. That doesn't mean you need to be an entrepreneur necessarily, but you eventually need to position yourself where you're given the opportunity to be a equity Partner. Some professions -- like law-- are easier to distinguish these types of roles because they have 'Partner' in their title, but there are a fair amount of smaller/mid-sized companies that offer equity to key employees and leadership. Start-up/early-stage companies hand these types of packages out more easily to lower-level employees, but have a higher degree of uncertainty. I think the sweet spot are privately held or PE backed companies in the $100M-$500M revenue range. These are already established and profitable businesses that are competing for talent with larger, more well-known, companies and willing to give equity in lieu of public co. RSUs. 1-2% equity at the right company at the right time can prove extremely lucrative, especially if you're fortunate/lucky enough to do it a couple times once you're at a more senior level. These roles are much more achievable vs hoping you'll be a F500 c-level exec.
Source: Me, who will never be a F500 CFO, but has interviewed for these types of above roles.
Ay bro, keep your voice down 🤣 Don’t give out all the secrets!
So you mean get to a leadership role in a F500 company in your 40s and then switch if the opportunity arises?
Saw your post history, were you a FLDP grad?
Your life's goals will change as you navigate your path. At 30 I wanted to be able to retire at 40. It goes by in a blink of an eye. Find something you like to do, can get paid very well doing it, and do it. Then retirement talk doesn't mean as much.
Independence is about being able to do what yo want, when you want, where you want, and with whom you want. Using that definition, I "made" it a long time ago. Probably late 40s, but I still work (late 50s) because I like what I do, it's not hard, still like the thrill of the hunt, and the money pays for fun so why not?
I imagine I'll continue working enough to pay for world travel and fun excursions without having to tap into nest egg for another 10 yrs. I could just retire now, but I always ask myself: Why? I retire from things I don't like doing all the time (some of them work related, others social). Again the key is havi8ng the control and ability to pretty much do what you want to do. With me, doing things with whom I choose is a big deal. I'm way past suffering A holes and idiots.
This is the dream. I’m not far but not quite there yet. Thanks for this!
I did not make it as much as I hope for or at least not where I thought I would be by this time. Background, I am 36, single, work in a corporate job making $300K cash comp a year (but in California) and my Net Worth is about $700K (no debt since no mortgage and pay cash for my cars). I started at an Ivy and went to bulge bracket IB and had hopes to be one of the $10M+ net worth guys by my mid 30s. After bulge bracket PE I went to a mega fund PE and frankly could not deal with another year of stressful hours and work so I left after a year to go corporate. At Corporate started at $90K and built to my current level over the past ten years. Obviously I still hope to make it to C-Level at either a fortune 500 or a pre-IPO/liquidity event company that can have an exit but there is also a possibility that I wont and this is as good as it gets (middle management).
However, I am pretty happy with life and okay if this is as good as it gets. My life is pretty good, low stress at hour, normal hours, good time for gym, happy relationships with parents, siblings, and friends. Still lots of dating and dating life is even better now than earlier. I am still striving to make it but is not the only priority in life. Even if my life is far from being financially secure (I have a job not financial security and cannot afford a home in most parts of California i would want to live) I am still pretty content.
To answer the question directly, I have friends who are partners at the top funds (including the one I left) or one who had a successful start-up sale ($50M+ personal exit). Obviously their lifestyle is better than mines and don't think their happiness is less than mine either (work life balance is not everything) since they were frankly cut up to continue pushing for those top jobs.
Did you ever doubt your decision to go corporate? Recently made the switch from banking after a very sweaty year and I don't enjoy the slower pace as much as I thought I would with the progression (comp and career-wise) ahead looking a lot slower. Seems like breaking $200k can take a while from here (low 100s) and 300 even farther so and I feel like I should've just put my head down and keep working harder. Not sure if there's any path back into regular finance roles now for me either.
Yes at the beginning. So my first corporate job after the mega fund was $90K a year plus like $5K bonus and $5K in stock (back in 2011). At the Mega Fund I pulled $200K so it was a bit of an adjustment financially. Having said that the job was 9 to 5 most of the time, chill people, and I was having a blast being 25 with a shit ton of free time. I did see that it would be difficult to move up in corporate and $100K was not much so I end up going back to b school and after b school i went to a family office for $200K plus carry (never materialize since guy decided to fire everyone after two years). I then made the jump to current job and started at $240K and took three years to get to current level but have been stuck at current level for two years and probably will be for a while since boss is not going anywhere. So it takes longer regardless of performance which can be frustrating.
From personal experience making the jump after analyst is not ideal and probably would not do it again and would have grind it for one or two more years at the fund and then go to b school and then corporate or become a VP at fund (assuming I could) and then make jump to at least senior manager but hopefully director in a corporate role. Though a bschool buddy who was a VP at a bulge bracket and took a senior manager role cause he was done with banking and now regrets it.
Long winded way of saying if you make the move (i) be happy with level you take since you could be stuck in it for a while, (ii) know that making jumps is sometimes the best way to get promoted, (iii) make sure work life balance / low stress is the most important thing for you and not money since that is the only guaranteed thing you get in corporate, and (iv) know yourself and what matters financially, I am not a big spender in material things so $300K basically affords me to do almost everything I want to do (caveat not a home in Cali) but is not rich by any means of imagination and have to be conscious bout what I spend (I cannot afford to stay at the four seasons when i travel as an example) .
You mind sharing at a general level what this guy did?
Tech start-up that was well run is probably most I can say. But effectively a company in a high growth sector with smart funding and perfectly timed exit
Honestly it sounds like you could afford a home in California very easily. You have 700k in the bank and make 300k a year. Yes, it would probably require putting a large down payment on the home which would be most of your savings, but I don't think it is accurate to make the assumption that "afford a nice house" means "buy without a mortgage". I don't know the SF suburbs well, but I find it hard to imagine you can't find a nice home for ~1.5mm. I know that in the nicer suburbs of NYC that would go a long way, and I am making the assumption that's an equally HCOL area.
Yeah part of it is Corp Dev in tech is not the most stable job over the next couple of years (IMHO) and I am not married yet so taking on the solo risk is a bit of a gamble that I rather not take. Cash is king for me but probably coming from a blue collard always make me wary of debt. yes, you can call me an idiot because of all the financial reasons to own but can't beat that.
del
Do whatever looks good for you face shape and personal style. Some guys look good with a beard and some don't. But, if you beard hair is thin and/or patchy, just do everyone a favor and shave.
Define “made it”? A simple salary and upside and a chance for learning and career advancement is sufficient for me. Wish it was more stable. Just like time in the market beats timing the market, it’s also important to keep the money rolling in, not just a feast and famine cycle.
How much do you make a year?
If $100M is the cutt off, the percentage is roughly 0.07% of people.
I just want a house, so I can get a home gym and not need to wait in line to use machines. I also need a punching bag in my gym. Sometimes, the motivation to let of energy kicks in hen the gyms are closed. I also need a room, for recreation. I also want a kitchen to indulge my culinary hobbies. I also want a garden. I estimate this will cost my about $.7-1million depending on location.
A job that gets me this home while working the least hours as possible is a goal. I'm not looking for a mansion and a Porsche to sit in traffic in. 100 million isn't going to buy me anything good. I'd just give it away, so I might as well not bother accumulating it.
I'd like work flexibility to engage in volunteering .I'm entertaining the thought of pedagogy as part of my volunteering.
I think when I have this all figured out, including whether or not pedagogy is for me, I'll have made it. Also, maybe a life partner and good health. I don't need $100 million for any of this.
My boss spent 50 years in the industry, Harvard MBA, President at Schwab, Fidelity, and some shops in Japan, Korea, and HK. He could've dropped everything and retired 30-40 years ago. Dude's 70 now and is still in the game working as CEO of our AM fintech, just loves the game too much to quit.
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