Low-IQ duke student in crisis
Hello everyone,
I am a sophomore at Duke and would describe myself as a bottom-quartile talent among my peers. I came in thinking I would major in engineering, but Pratt (the engineering school) was bending me over, so I dropped it to avoid pulling a few C's as my ultimate focus has been finance (my parents pressured me into entering as an engineering major). I have a 3.6ish GPA at the moment, which, while it doesn't sound bad, is pretty mediocre considering my light course load and the absurd amount of grade inflation on campus. It is not uncommon for me to have the lowest score on exams in my smaller seminar classes, and I think I am currently the only person in my Spanish class without an A.
While I wouldn't say that I'm stupid (1530 SAT/35 ACT, ranked top five in high school class), I feel I got into a school with peers who are far more driven and capable than myself. I went to a pretty shit high school (19 ACT average), was highly strategic in extracurriculars, and studied my ass off for the SAT. Additionally, I am just straight-up lazy by Duke standards. While I am incredibly fit (work out probs 2hrs/a day, had a walk-on offer for my sport when I arrived) and put in 30hrs/a week between classes and studying, this pales in comparison to most of my friends, who maybe leave one night a week to enjoy themselves and spend the rest of their lives buried in coursework. I never studied in high school, and I have to take 20mg of Adderall to even sit still for more than an hour. However, I love my school and routinely go out 2-3 nights a week. As a side note, having UNC in such proximity is actually a godsend - I take the Robertson bus at least once a week to enjoy the Chapel Hill party scene.
To maintain a decent GPA, I'll probably end up majoring in something far from rigorous. I mostly wanted to ensure that it won't prevent me from landing interviews in IB/finance. If I were to pull a major in Cultural Anthropology, would I be screwing myself? I'll have around $80k of loans at graduation and want to pursue a lucrative career. So far, my only work experience is in the academic setting on ML projects (I have a few mid-author academic pubs to show for it, though). I've interviewed for a few roles as a trading analyst at mid-tier quant firms for sophomore summer (I had referrals) but that isn't IB, and I have some doubts about how it will pan out.
Additionally, I have a decent bit of nepo when IB recruiting season comes around this winter. Still, if I am in the 3.5 GPA range with a non-rigorous major and am concerned it won't be enough (no relevant clubs/ECs, unfortunately). However, I know how to prep for techs and - if it means anything - have memorized half of the green book when helping my friend prepare for his quant shit (he landed at Five Rings/Citatel/Two Sigma). Doing quant would honestly be my first choice, but I don't know if it's realistic given the major I'll likely end up in (Duke math is very, very hard).
I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of hate for this post, but please let me know what your impressions are. I may or may not have told my parents I'm keeping the math major, and if I graduate with no employment options and they find out I was majoring in Theater Studies or some bull shit it won't go over well.
Cheers,
a lazy Duke student
Based on previous WSO threads, here are some insights and advice for your situation:
GPA and Major Selection:
Work Experience and Extracurriculars:
Networking and Nepotism:
Preparation for Interviews:
Career Path Considerations:
Parental Expectations:
In summary, while your current situation may seem challenging, there are several steps you can take to improve your prospects. Focus on maintaining a strong GPA, gaining relevant experience, leveraging your network, and preparing thoroughly for interviews. Good luck!
Sources: Best college major for IB at Ivy?, Finance Culture - Personalities, https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forum/school/dilemma-quantitative-finance-vs-finance?customgpt=1, Accounting major, can't seem to break into IB, Are you guys happy with life? Help me please.
Firstly, can you not transfer into the Business school? It seems like you went to a really easy high school which is why you were able to get ranked so highly and also explains why you probably were not prepared for Duke. I don’t know too much as a freshman but as far as quant, not to burst your bubble but I’m pretty sure you’d need to major into a highly technical major for that. If you’re struggling with engineering (which I’m sure you can improve by working on study habits) then I would highly doubt if you could land a quant job, considering the level of dedication/mathematical knowledge needed for it. Even people at MIT struggle to get those jobs so you need to be the cream of the crop.
There’s not a business school at Duke
Fuqua School of Business is their business school but not for undergrads
Quant would prefer students study something like Math, CS, or anything quantitative instead of business. Plus, Duke doesn't have an undergraduate business school.
There is no math anymore only style
I was a math major, took diff equations, multi, and lin alg (got a 5 on calc BC so tested out of that junk). Shit was lowk getting above my pay-grade and I have still done p well on the quant techs thus far (two second-rounds). As some other posters mentioned, no undergrad b-school at duke - just economics. Tbh that is probs the best move and it strikes a balance in rigor compared to what I was previously doing. If I were to finish with a math major I'd just rake in a bunch of C's.
Engineering semester 1-2ish, technically a math major right now (although I dropped the math course I was in). We don't actually declare until after this semester
What is this nonsense. Do an Econ major and join Wall Street
Yeah I think this is what I'm coming to realize...
I had a similar situation as you. I attend a T20 target. I dropped Econ at the start of my sophomore fall because of the course rigor and how it might screw up my GPA, and I am now majoring in Political Science. Still, I'm having second thoughts about adding Econ at the end of this semester or the start of the spring semester. The goal is to maintain a high GPA and have a valid reason to justify why you decided to major in Cultural Anthropology instead of Econ. Quant would prefer a quantitative major like Econ and Math, but IB/PE doesn't care as much. Feel free to PM me to discuss this in more detail.
Will do. Switching to econ might be the move for me too - we'll see.
Delete
i dont want to sugar coat it, so i'll just say it. based on this post, quant is not happening. (worked at sig last summer)
you need to focus completely on one ATTAINABLE industry (be it ib, s&t, whatever) and just full send it. stop being wishy washy about things. put your head down and work. you've been given an incredible gift to be at duke and to see you completely squander it is honestly making me mad ngl. be realistic and stop having pipe dreams that we both know are completely unrealistic.
Just hopping in here. Not trying to sugarcoat either, but based on this comment, quant isn't possible for you either. (worked at AQR last summer)
you need to focus completely on one ATTAINABLE industry (be it wealth management, marketing, whatever) and just full send it. Do not let yourself be wishy washy and convince yourself that becoming a quant is possible full time. You have been given an incredible gift (nepo internship at sig) and to see you squander it on dreams of becoming a quant pisses me off and makes me very fussy ngl. Be realistic and stop pursuing these pipe dreams that we both know are completely unrealistic.
lololol
10/10 shit post. No notes.
"Completely squander" is a bit overdramatic for my circumstances. Good on you for landing sig from UIUC or whatever public school took you, but not everyone wants to be a hardo fuck with no life at 20 years old. I'm prepared to work but don't act like I'm a loser for not having everything figured out right now.
I agree with the other poster on you being wishy washy. It's totally cool not to know what exactly you want to do, but you can't just sit there and ponder it when your competition is grinding. That's not being dramatic, it's just being honest. He's right in the sense that you should hit the ground running and lock in on some career path. You can switch at literally any time from 6 months from now to 30 years from now. But you can't switch from having accomplished nothing because you're just sitting there thinking about it. Lock in on something to fill the time while you're figuring out what industry is best for you.
don't understand why you come to a forum asking for advice if you're not willing to take it how it is lol
and this comment completely demonstrates your problem -- you have this mindset that just because you got into duke, the doors are going to magically open wide for you. i go to a hypsm, but i will never ever make fun of someone that goes to a public because i greatly respect the amount of work that it takes to make it from one of those schools. even at a hypsm, the doors aren't wide open for me -- we all have to put in the work. there's no shame in that and i think your mindset is flawed at best and a great detriment to yourself at worst.
using a "hardo fuck" is yet another fallacy. i don't work all the time -- i just know when to work and when to play. got shitfaced last week lol. hope you enjoy unc, and hope your interpretive dance degree will open many doors for you in the future.
regardless of the jab, really wish the best for you dude. i know how hard it can be to be a rural student at an Ivy+ school, but you have a fantastic opportunity right now and you should take advantage of that. just trying to offer some candid advice.
Dude asked for advice and proceeds to shit on everyone legitimately trying to help him. Not a great look
Cultural Anthropology??? Dude do NOT do that. That is career death.
There are plenty of other subjects that are less rigorous but at least a bit respected - political science, business, management, etc.
I have a couple of friends who studied history and it is their biggest regret. They're now in Big 4 audit.
If I end up at Big 4 I think I would just kms lmaoo. I'll try econ or maybe poli-sci. The point was that my GPA has taken a beating and I need some back-ups.
I'm an econ major at duke it's not light work at all
Yeah this is a good point. Shopping cart opened yesterday for spring semester so I'll play with some options.
IB is a joke, you just work hard but no need to be smart lol. Went to Vandy and studied HOD, tons of dummies that partied for 4 years made it to MBB and IB
Hmmm I like the sound of this. I'll lock in a bit more but v much don't want to stop my weekend shenanigans.
Crazy that there's non-targets who bust their ass off to get a sniff of IB at a garbage MM bank, and then there's this absolute nitwit at Duke with a terrible GPA trying to figure out how to break in without stopping his "weekend shenanigans".
Inshallah you will go to big 4 transactions.
Just do Econ. Cultural anthropology is a career killer and you will regret it. If you like the classes, do that as a minor or just take extra classes informally.
Drop the quant idea - not happening as others have discussed - and focus on one career path. IB is not rocket science but even as a nepo hire, you should be well-prepped and ready to answer technical interview questions. It's not hard to pick up a club in the next few months, just join something finance-related to show some interest.
Also honestly this is a lot of whinging and whining. You are the only one that can build better study and work habits, and college is the best time to do it. Doesn't need to be studying for 50 hours a week, but take some responsibility for being disciplined. Find someone to help if you think you are a bit depressed, that can make things worse.
You're completely right, and I admit to being whiny. I've definitely been depressed during the week, and cope pretty hard on weekends with alcohol. The nepo connections run pretty deep (both parents attended one of HYP) and I would say I'm pretty much guaranteed an interview at several BBs. However, if I use those connections it would be on the premises that I take it seriously and not embarrass myself/family. Clubs here are hella competitive and recruiting already sorta happened, but I'll see what I can do. I get that I'm probably entitled/lazy but these were the cards I was given and I've decided I want to start playing them better from now on.
Bro if you’re too lazy to do this simple shit, you’re not cut out for FO finance, much less quant. Do wealth management or sales or something.
This guy defo didn't get a bid...
institutional sales.. you'll be far happier there long-term
No.
Dude, I think there was some hope you'd have good people skills if you're not willing to work to be academically strong. Sales would've been a good fit.
That is so not the case
Stopped reading at "3.6ish GPA"
3.6ish is pretty mid for a white guy chasing IB, even from a target. Average here is likely north of 3.7.
You don't need to be very smart for banking but how will you sit still for 14-16 hours a day ?
That is my one concern. I figure I focus on landing the internship and then see how it goes.
Sitting still in a job is way easier than sitting still in college lol. Even the most disciplined people are trolling around a significant amount of the time
Is it ? College is a joke
My advice to OP is it will all be OK and to start smoking weed. Thx
What about whippets?
how do you go to chapel hill parties if you are at duke? do you have an in with the frat brothers there?
Yes (no, I will not get you in if you are a duke student).
im a unc student lmaoo
I doubled in econ and math at Duke and my econ gpa wasn't really that much higher lol
That makes me feel a bit better. Bfitz is the saving grace of that dept lol.
Here's my perspective as an upperclassman at Duke who went through the recruitment process. I'll break it up by talking about your major, grades and then extracurriculars. You'll likely need to cast a net outside of NYC and look into regional IB (Charlotte, SF, Houston, Chicago etc) to maximize chances along with NYC roles. I recruited mainly in NYC, while also throwing out a few applications to one of the cities listed above.
Your major doesn't really matter UNLESS it's some shit like CulAnth or Sociology or some bs. I'd say Econ is obviously the tried and true method. There's always a few PoliSci/PubPols that get offers (I'll caveat this by saying most are diversity candidates, and being one of these majors with a 3.6 may raise eyebrows). On top of this, I'm not outright recommending it but want you to be aware that a lot of kids do lie or exaggerate their major. Ton of kids will say they're doing a BS in Econ when in reality they're doing a BA, or will take CS 101 and say they're double majoring in CS or whatnot. You can technically get away with this because we don't have to declare majors till around spring break soph spring. Not advising this because there's a chance you can get fucked during an interview if they get into the weeds asking about your studies (and interviewers have done this to me btw).
Onto your grades – a 3.6 is fine provided that you network your ass off. Ideally you want a 3.7, less ideally at least a 3.65, and imo you don't want to be below a 3.6. I know non-diversity guys who have gotten offers in all 3 of these buckets. None of them that ik had a major below that of a BS in Econ (on their resume at least) but that's just my experience.
Lastly, having 0 finance or business related activities honestly is the most concerning part of this. Given that you're at a target, firms that come to campus with specific Duke recruiting teams will compare you relative to your Duke peers competing for the same role. Figure out how to stack the box with relevant ECs ASAP. If you don't do this, figure out the strongest story possible to tie your current experiences and activities to why you wanna go into IB. If you have 0 Duke activities as a soph, it's time to hang the cleats up and focus on recruiting for a less competitive industry. You'll need to milk tf out of the nepo to bridge the gap.
To summarize – at your current state, it will be and uphill battle to get an IB offer for junior summer (not ruling out full-time though). If you have a strong soph fall, and strengthen ECs, you'll have a better chance. You'll still be fucked for quant so dw about that, but if you prioritize networking this fall and schedule calls like your life depends on it while utilizing the nepo connections I'd be optimistic. If you don't do all these you're pretty fucked, there's a lot of driven, qualified people in your year who want these jobs. Good luck
This is phenomenal. I kinda dodged the whole club recruitment process and honestly don't think I would have gotten into Scale or any of the more competitive groups. Do you have any advice as to non-competitive EC's that would build the resume? Right now it's all just academic research/a few interesting non-finance related EC's.
Search funds or small IB internships (both would be unpaid) are your best bet. If you can get one of these you can potentially say something like "I've enjoyed diving deeply into topics through my academic research, and wanted to get experience doing something similar in the context of finance. So I interned at Firm X during the fall which reaffirmed my interest in finance and led me to recruit for IB" or something like that.
You can find these internships by looking at what other sophomores, juniors and seniors did during their freshman summer and potentially reach out to those companies. Few name that come to mind off the dome are MDG Partners and Concordia Capital.
I can't emphasize enough how important networking is though, especially for you. My profile was objectively better than yours and myself and others had to slog through the spring to get offers. Networking and forming good connections that'll vouch is the best and only way for you to get to interviews. Once you get the interview it's completely on you to get the offer, and completely your fault if you don't.
Go into finance.
3.6 at Duke can get you anywhere tbh. It’s Duke.
Common Duke W.
I love your dedication to doing the absolute bare minimum necessary to land IB, as though getting even .01 additional GPA would be a waste of life.
But those soft majors can be pretty boring too, you might enjoy it more doing Econ for a few extra study hours a week and learning something useful for your career. Plus, as you suspect, a relevant major is going to be more respected in recruiting. I know we hear about the history major from Princeton who works in IB but that becomes tougher outside the the very top few schools.
Thank you, it took a lot of effort to get fucked up on a Wednesday night and party before mid-terms -- yet I made it happen.
I think Econ would honestly be pretty chill compared to the math coursework I had, and the anthropology consideration was likely an overreaction on my part after getting my ass kicked in abstract. However, as another poster mentioned, I could keep math as my tentative major while taking other coursework with the intention of switching it later. I am ahead of the typical schedule for finishing a math major, so it wouldn't even be entirely disingenuous.
Finally, now that I think about it, my parents also have access to my DukeHub account so they would probably notice if I switched to interpretive dance or whatever. Guess I'm sticking with STEM.
You sound like you would be great in sales in S&T. It's an extroverted role that likes ex-athletes and doesn't require too much product knowledge. The hours are tough (early starts after late night client entertainment) but the comp can be great in the right product (think high yield bonds/credit).
I'll check it out. Thanks for the insight.
Intelligence is overrated. Success relies upon various skills and attributes, and above all else, attitude and effort.
Being intelligent is not a requirement for anything on sell side.
vary nize. I is dum.
2 hours working out a day? Are you on a team? if not shorten that to 45 min and crack a book. Taking a bus to party at another school? Save the 80k debt and goto NCstate.
It sounds like your priorities are wack. Your friends are busy studying all the time?... Yeah man that is the point of school. A positive is that you accurately understand the challenge you face but you dont want to do the hard work to get on the right track. You can't expect to breeze through college. Also, if you cant study for an hour without adderall you will never make it in a rigorous or 'prestigous' career. If you dont take any advice here and continue to waste your time in college you are destined to retail bank ops.
All said, I doubt you will have the courage to turn this around. You seem content in wasting your opportunity at a great school. Don't lie to your parents, I can't fathom lying to the only people who have your best interest in mind and are capable of helping you in this situation.
Ong all I really need is to stop taking high level math classes to get 3.7+, do a quick nepo finance internship (sorta got something in the works as of today), and add some time into networking/prepping for technicals -- that's like a few extra hours/week. I have a close family member at another T10 who did far less and is at GS/JPM/MS and doing just fine. Tbh I think people in finance overestimate how arduous the path needs to be given the right circumstance.
This is what I’m talking about. Save this line of thinking for when you actually achieve something. GJ being born a nepo I’m sure you wear it on your sleeve.
I think selective focus is a rather good attribute for a right tail outcome, but one that is not rewarded or detrimental in a typical corporate environment
If you look at a lot of the winners of the past decade or two (mostly founders) a lot of them will proclaim to having a hard time focusing on things that they didn't find interesting, but actually really dial it up once they find their calling
I think Michael Seibel is an easy example of this, self-proclaimed lazy kid that got kicked out of Yale for his low grades, but really turned it on when he helped start Twitch. Plenty of other examples as well
Yeah, I think lazy is the wrong word to describe myself. I don't really like most of what I study, and sporadically get obsessed with my hobbies. I think I'll find a way to make it in life, but it may not be in a conventional pathway.
I’m a Duke grad and you seem like an absolute idiot. That being said, if you have a 3.5+ from Duke and can hold a conversation you should be able to land a job
I'll have you know I held down a fast-food job for 6-weeks in high school before getting fired for stealing a pallet of chicken tenders.
You are far from stupid; your stats speak for themselves and you got into Duke. Study Econ, maybe Poli Sci or History. Something that looks good but doesn’t require too much time. 3.6 is a solid GPA and you’re at fucking Duke lmao. Just pull it up, maybe take summer classes if you can. Beyond that, pick an industry like IB or PE (doable out of undergrad since, again, you’re at fucking Duke), grind technicals, network (maximize your nepo, get on LinkedIn, etc.), apply, and you will be fine. Beyond that, get a girlfriend (that’s a prescription not a suggestion).
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