Top Students are No Longer Going Into Finance

Thread is dumb lol. We're having a debate over where the "smartest" kids go when we haven't even defined "smart". Trust me, there are various discrete categories of "intelligence", and they're not correlated. 

Not gonna type out a whole big thing but I'll just offer one example: at my HYPSM, usaco plat kids are a dime a dozen, we have several IMO / IOI / IxO level guys. Some of these guys could never manage a company (all points on EQ alr touched above by other posters) or work in a tiger cub-esque fundamental role (can't ask the right questions, think about what matters). But their quant skills are obv unparalleled. So why do u think these people go and work at places like desco or jsc? Bc unless ur stupid, u do what ur good at and play to ur strengths in life. U do what interests you. You're using technical skill as the defining criteria for "smart" and then observing that all "smart" people by your definition are going into tech.

There's also just way too much information bias here because the other categories of intelligence are more difficult to measure, you don't have these nice and reputable international competitions simply selecting for who is the best at building elite networks or synthesizing information to connect the dots. It's easy to defer to hard STEM achievements as a proxy for general intelligence. One of the biggest fallacies of all time

Sure, if that's how you want to define the top students at HYPSM, but my point is, those students historically didn't really go into IB. They can't "no longer" go into IB if they historically didn't really go into IB either.

The students that traditionally go for for business fields (non-quant finance/consulting/etc) are a different type, and the "top" student for those has more of profile as the Econ/liberal arts major, graduating summa cum laude, who went to a NE prep school, had leadership positions on campus, and was well-connected. If you define "top" as those, it can be argued that IB has become a bit less popular as buy-side and consulting has risen in popularity. That being said, IB is still super popular across top schools.

Loool the future leaders of business/politics aren't studying maths degrees and joining quant trading firms...

What soft skills do they have? How good is their EQ? Can they manoeuver office politics? Are they an inspiring manager?

No. Take a look at literally any executive board in a global corporation. Is anyone there a math nerd who spent his career cranking out trading algorithms. No.

Your definition of top student is someone who's a genius at maths. I'd argue a "top student" is someone with a excellent mix of IQ, EQ, drive and passion. It wasn't Jeff Bezos' quantitative skills that built and grew Amazon, it was his relentless passion, vision and inspiring leadership skills. When Bernard Arnault built LVMH he didn't use any maths skills. Oh and guess where all his kids went after university? MBB and IB before joining LVMH.

This also goes out to Johnny ^^ above this comment here.

My name is Josh.

I’m from an extremely poor family. Always in debt, dads a rapist and moms a drug addict. I was even a drug addict for a moment.

While I chose for a long time to give into those habitual less than I deserved or (anyone) for that matter self thoughts of cultural hegemony… I did not.. I’m 30 years old. 30…. Getting my associates soon and already the resources I have amassed by the amount of research if done on my own time as well as only take specific classes I desired per my belief of what I’m “working with in theory” to be my way out.

My first step. Was deleting my family and deciding that a new generation needs to come. One that doesn’t know any of these guys. My family is toxic and emotionally driven for connection at a level that just doesn’t logically even make sense… like… for example, why would you throw your life away for self pity and be told that’s what’s happening and then tell that person who’s trying to help you they just aren’t accepting your emotional behaviors and that their an asshole.

Well, guess what…. I decided I was done with that life, that family. I have even taken my daughter with me and surprisingly the mother agrees with this belief that I have.

So she is with her boyfriend and I live with a friend and we do parent, in the mean time I teach my daughter everything I believe to be putting her ahead of the curve as far as not having the structure she deserves as a little girl In this world….

On top of that, I can agree that my work load is nearly inhumane and almost unbearable to continue but there’s something in my brain going on that’s not letting me give in and all it leaves behind is a headache when I push myself to hard.

I’ve studied class, and I’ve studied low income households even though I was one. ^^

But… I’m telling you all this specifically to share something uncanny about the human condition which is our biological being as well psychological aspects as well as our somewhat constant conscious ability to maintain ourselves in reality…. And you know what I think?

I think the humans overthink complexity and simplicity as well as measure how hard something is based on their environmental experience… I also am aware that the brain can change entirely if one is aware how to abuse the natural hegemony in things in order manipulate one’s self into a new category of class in this world…

I’m here to tell you it exist and that when I am done. Achieving my goals. Which are most likely going to consist of a “legal” masters degree and about 2 more separate degrees that are un applied physically to the usage in state but useful at home in stocks as well as engineering and some study of physics along the way just for the quantum interest I have.

Another thing that seems to be going for me…. Every time I see a challenge I want to take it and prove how easily achievable that it is to apply one’s self through self taught discipline. Yes… over the last 6 years I’ve been doing nothing but reading and writing and researching and then college came around and then my resources for networking came into play and the. I started meeting investors who didn’t know how to handle my knowledge from where I came from and yes “you can still tell” that I am from low class. I don’t buy expensive suits “yet” 🤷🏼‍♂️ I just have one that looks nice so I can still try my best to encourage the environment to act on my behalf for my future brains desires in its beliefs it’s fighting for and that process here wearing the suit makes the reality happen a little easier in a sense.

Lastly, what’s your guys interest with how smart someone is based off the schools they go to and the sure certainty that a child would fail to be raised successfully if raised by some test experiment to be successful and still failing.

Well, I can pretty much debunk that too.

I didn’t read the story about it, but I can almost be certain that the raising of the child has been a fail from the start because nobody doing the experiment believed that to be truly possible for some reason no matter the circumstances and humans… a funny thing about us… is we inherit naturally the understanding when something is not right about our lives…. Then following through with those self thoughts to reach on to some source of identity as you go on through life.

The “edge” or the IQ/EQ. The personalities, the poverty or the rich as can be… are no different than me and I no different than them.

We are all 100% a product. A PRODUCT OF EARTH. Each one of us can do exactly the same thing the other can do. ABSOLUTELY.

Does that human have a brain? Ohhh? Yes… they do. Okay, guess what? It’s the same damn thing you got.

Does that human have 2 arms, five fingers? 2 legs and can tie some shoes? OK?

So they can grab and walk places like someone who has money too? Weird x right?

So if X=X -V^8bn * infinity = infinity.

Then that would mean this equation is the equal belief system we should create our reality to believe because I’m proving it wrong everyday with my choices despite my family’s hate towards me.

But I decided I didn’t care that I wouldn’t to climb out if the “believed line I sat in with them”

I went to my mom one day and said, I need you to look at me like the president of the United States.

Hey, mom, I said something.

Mom:”huh” ohhh honey, look at you like the president. Is that what you have been so busy with school for?

Me: No mom… I’ve been so busy because I don’t want this family anymore and I’ve decided to eradicate it from my future line.

Despite the emotional feelings she threw at me as I walked out the door… I just kept walking.

Why is this important some may ask, or could have in thought… and the reason is because this… this right here… plus the picture I’m sending through with it…. Is an example of what people like me have to go through in a world like this in order to climb out.

While I have it easier as far as mental discipline goes, I doubt others who I’ve met to claim the same energy and belief to achieve 5 percent of what I do in one day, in their whole week.

The difference between me and those old friends… are one simple version that looks like their life in order in comparison to the truth in which they are lying to themselves about their own life in order to avoid the feelings of failure because some just know they can’t or want to work hard at all… if even survive anymore down here…

Like I said, I’m enjoying the ride my brain is allowing me to oversee. Eventually (8-10) years from now. I’ll be known, no different then your average google search history….

The only factor at play here in all of this that really is just funny but pathetic …. Is the human mental perception as well as their visual and mental understanding of things . If our social body keeps going the way it is… mark my words, we will all suffer. Every last one of us.

As far as I go though. Is limitless and always had been, I just needed to realize that I’m not different than another human in anyway…. Anyways at all .

Passing out. Goodnight. Hope this was clearly read and understood.

For the record I pay bills with my ability to manipulate my time around an insanely tricky schedule by working for a person I had worked my way up to through networking and I scored a spot at his place and all my bills are covered if I work for him in my free time.

I’ve calculated the bare minimum it would take to appease his human thoughts about me and if I was doing enough for him for his assistance in my goals.

I even upped the ante and gave him 1000$ the other day as a gift to show my appreciation in his belief of me and allowance of household amenities ect.

There’s so much more I could say, but I leave you with this.

We are out here, and I can’t be the only one and we are seeing the path for what it is, “nothing more or less” than perception of your self in your reality and if you can acknowledge that, suddenly your brain gives you answers you don’t even need to study for anymore. Good day.

Dumbass, you're outlining a subset of maybe 100 kids total. Also, shocker, getting those awards does not guarantee that you'll be able to land a top hypsm, so you're looking at an even smaller number of kids who accomplish those things and wind up at hypsm (yes, it improves chances but still difficult to get into those schools with those accomplishments given, legacies, diversity, "personality")

Why is it so shocking that they don't go into IB? Why would you expect them to go into IB in the first place. A lot of those guys don't even care about money (yes, you wouldn't understand, but it's true). In order for them to become the top 100 kids in math/science they have to be extremely passionate about that shit, and why would they throw all of that away just to make some money at a boring job. Even DE Shaw has trouble recruiting the super geniuses because they really aren't motivated by money. The "super cracked" people likely wind up becoming professors or researchers in their respective fields

You'd have to be an idiot to expect a guy like Terence Tao (look him up) who gets his phd from princeton at 21 to go into IB or even anything finance related. 

You're missing the point. The title of your post is "Top Students Are No Longer Going Into Finance". The type of student you're describing never went into non-quant finance in the first place, and nothing's changed about that. There were never part of the finance demographic.

It's like saying "top STEM students are no longer going to law school" when they never really were the type to go to law school.

yea if you talking about some 1% stephen hawking genius yea ofc they will start their own shit or go to a quant hf straight up .. tf if i was was gifted and a genius i would start my own company and be the next zukerburg, your whole point is contradicting - to get into IB itself you need to be a top student of some sort, to get into swe you have to be a top cs student, to get to any postion that is paid fucking high you have to have some sort of ability or capability of being at the "top". there are kids that made it into swe that didnt go to hyp but they made sure that they were doing the extra studying so they can be the top to get hired ....

For engineering? yes. Harvard is not known for engineering and it is relatively a new program. Most Ivy Leagues (with the exception of Cornell) are not strong in engineering. It is too blue collar for them. 

There are what I’d effectively call “STEM Targets” schools that are elite in STEM, but not necessarily in finance eg Cal Tech, MIT, Georgia Tech, CMU. There’s a subset of applicants who are brilliant, but not Ivy League well rounded types. If you’ve monomaniacally have focused on pure math or some other STEM pursuit you may well wind up there.

Harvard is Harvard but it is not strong in every field of study nor does it have every field of study. If you were going study Physical Therapy, you would not go to Harvard being that it does not have that major. If you were to study music you would go to Julliard, Manhattan School of Music or even Indiana University being that these are top music programs. The schools I have mentioned previously are top engineering programs. Georgia Tech is well respected in the engineering and the computer science community. Harvard and Yale are not. I know this is because my best friend went to Berkeley and is an engineer. He spilled all the tea on top engineering schools.  Yes, a few start-up founders went to Harvard but they got their because they were wealthy not because they went to Harvard. Someone goes to Harvard undergrad to be in a recruiting pipeline for IB/PE/ and Consulting not an engineer. 

The reason why IB and SWE should not be lumped in together because they require different skill sets and different personalities. For many fields you need to take the prestige out of the equation.  

Harvard and Princeton are not known for CS at the undergrad level. What ever ranking they get has to do with start-up founders not technical education. Engineering is a different world then the prestige obsessed IB. Many prestigious schools do not have engineering programs at all. 

500-600k working 40 hrs vs 160k working 100 hrs fiddling around on excel and updating logos. your choice

have you ever stepped foot in an office of a tech company or bank? that is a far more accurate description of the IB work environment (minus the smart people). IB offices are dead silent, corporate cubicle type places where by the time you leave you'd have spent 14+ hours staring at excel/ppt/outlook with little to no human interaction.

If you have functioning social skills and enjoy talking to people, sitting in a dark room with maths nerds staring at computer screens all day is the definition of depression.

Prop shops trade, so you'll be in a trading room as a QT, not a dark poorly lit office. And yes hanging out with frat bros is definitely cooler, but is it worth working 20-30+ hours a week for 1/3 of the pay? Keep in mind that no matter how cool your coworkers are you're still at work, and things are pretty PC these days. Time outside the office is the only tieme you really get to have fun and be yourself. 

Not all finTech is good though. I’ve seen some really boring finTech and some other finTech that burnt money and failed. So it’s really tricky to distinguish the good and the bad. Same for quants. Some quant funds pay millions to new grad, yet some quant funds don’t even let people do real quant work but instead expect them to be IT support and pay them with peanuts ( Seen this happened first hand at banks, really disgusting that they do this to deteriorate the whole quant brand recognition. A lot of people despise quants because those banks give quant titles to their IT support )  . And some quants get fired because it’s heavily result-oriented and people are screwed if their researches don’t work out.  But generally I would say the quant and fin-tech worlds have very high ceiling and insane starting comp coupled with okay wlb.