Williams/Amherst glaze and lies need to stop.
Sr at Williams going to a low bb here. I was reading a thread here earlier today about Williams (and Amherst) and I just felt the amount of misinformation here is insane.
Essentially the thread was asking how Williams might compare to NYU Stern for someone who wants to pursue finance. And the majority of comments said to go to Williams. That shit genuinely made me so angry- here are some stats (feel free to verify these on LinkedIn): last year we sent 18 people TOTAL into banking… 2 to GS, 3 to JPM, 0 to MS. I know all these people well and all except 2 BOFA kids and 1 Guggenheim were athletes or diversity. For context we have 600 kids on the email list of our biggest finance club and at least 80 seriously recruit for finance per class.
It genuinely took me at least 4 hours a day including weekends of dedicated work my sophomore and junior years to get the job I have. My point is the advice on this formal is so shitty... GO to stern, go to cornell, go to a school with a fucking pipeline.
I go to A/W, got a top EB a cycle ago, and I know at least 20+ ppl who are going to EBs from A alone, most of whom are non-nepo, along with 10+ at top BBs. Even the kids i know who struck out of banking got MBB.
We have pipelines at Evercore, PJT, Lazard, Centerview, and, more recently, Morgan Stanley M&A/GS HC. Being an athlete can help in certain situations, but a lot of people place. We've historically sent ppl to MF Analyst programs out of college as well (I can think of 5 off the top of my head that I've spoken to).
Obviously, people strike out; not everyone can get the top IB/PE/HF or consulting jobs out there, but it's much easier and more attainable from A at least than NYU Stern.
These seem like obvious lies. You don’t just recruit for banking, strike out, and fallback on MBB. Sounds like you know of 30 people going into IB… is this in your class alone? Becuase if not then OP’s claim still tracks.
Of course it’s harder than stern. Stern is a top 10 feeder to IB… I hate LAC kids that think they go to an Ivy. Your school is the same level academically as stern.
20 in my class afaik and just because Stern is a top feeder doesn't mean everyone is getting Evercore M&A/CVP/PJT RSSG. I'd take LACs 10/10.
Also maybe 35 ppl recruit a year (40 max), and Williams legit had 7 kids go to GS IB last summer idk what this person is saying
As a A/W student who thinks you should not come here under any circumstance, I don’t think they’re lies. I think smart people from A/W don’t break into banking for the most part. It’s almost all athlete and nepo. As a result, MBB gets the cream of the crop.
Also at A/W, people do historically place well, but most of these are athletes/diversity.
More nepo than anything but yeah. No room for top talent to stick out at most NESCACs. I genuinely believe you are better served going to your state school
I also think A/W is at the LEAST, as good at stern for recruiting, and more of a cultural fit with me personally usually than the latter, but I squint at your comment as I have never heard of people, at scale, recruiting for both IB and MBB as a fallback.. maybe it does happen I suppose in careerist MBA programs but I would be surprised to see this at Amherst, though maybe you are right.
Yall are excluding DEI and Athletes. Fine. But exclude nepo babies as well lmao whole ton of those
Agree. LACs do a great job of convincing people they are serious schools, but they aren't. What good professor would want to teach at a place with the research budget of an indian carpentry school? And it is (like stern tbh) an ivy reject school.
W/A endowments are proportionally gigantic
Yeah but they’re not research universities, you can have all the endowment in the world but without labs, phd students, etc no professor will be able to accomplish their goals
Did you know that some teachers just want to teach?
Also if they do want to do research at Williams, Williams has more money per student than Dartmouth, Penn, Notre Dame (9th largest endowment of all schools public/private), Brown, Uchicago, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, WashU and Rice, so it is quite likely that their research could be even more well funded than at a larger school. You have no clue what you're talking about.
To be clear, the argument here is that W/A are overblown for finance recruiting in comparison with undergraduate business schools who have established pipelines into high finance... this is true. You must understand that the overwhelming majority, and I mean OVERWHELMING majority, come from very wealthy backgrounds, played niche sports to get into these schools, and were set up for IB since birth.
It seems that above the argument has devolved into if a stern type school is a better academic institution than W/A (which it is not, argue with a wall). BUT as we are talking finance recruiting here... Stern clears.
agreed
I go to one of A/W and encourage you to avoid it like the fucking plague. This place will work you to hell and grind you down to a pulp, you’ll have no college experience, you’ll be a second class citizen if you don’t play a sport, and you’ll get no job if you have no connections. I have to keep this broad but this school fucked me beyond belief. Wish I’d gone to UT so badly. Fortunately I did ok and got a decent offer but not because of anything this school did for me. If anyone is making the mistake of choosing A/W plz pm me so I can convince you not to come
Tbh second this (also at one of the A/W). Wish I had also gone to my state school; this place does not reward effort and connections/pipelines are greatly exaggerated if you're not nepo/athlete.
Same here for one of Dartmouth/Cornell. They say it's "a finance/consulting" powerhouse but trust me, the only ones getting these top finance jobs are nepos with daddy as MD or those in diversity pipelines. No wonder we also have the highest proportion of families in the top 1%. This college will work you to the bone and give you jack fucking shit (case in point: about to graduate jobless as a 3.8 gpa econ + math major).
You can just say Dartmouth lol. All these “elite small schools” are far from what they sell themselves to be
i go to a similar NESCAC. no nepo, no sport but ended up getting an offer. i think the connections i had were useful but surely not at the same level as you would expect. i had to supplement it with a ton of extra work because of my background.
looking back, i wish i got into to a bigger school. i knew i always wanted IB and this was the best school i got into with a full ride. i ended up more than fine and have the same (if not better) opportunities than my peers, but cant knock the second class citizen feeling as graduation comes up.
If you think you were worked hard at an A/W, don’t — I repeat, DO NOT — go into banking. College was a breeze relative to being a first-year. And if you have no connections, that’s no one’s fault but your own.
Mods are removing my comments as this site is ran by a Williams alum. Tells you all you need to know. A/W do not reward top talent, up to 90% of placements are nepo and you will have an atrocious college experience. Academics are hard, grade deflation is rampant, and people at the top of the class strike out for BB/EB and have to settle for MM all the time while nepo kids with 3.5s sail through and make the school numbers look good. This is not even mentioning the fact that you’ll be treated like a second class citizen if you don’t play a sport. Please go to literally any other school and avoid this place like the plague. Happy to talk more about my experiences (as someone who got an offer and did well academically) so I can convince you to avoid this place and honestly have a much better life as a result. Please feel free to PM. Thanks! Genuinely, please go to a real target
That’s really interesting that they’d remove your comments. Very anti-free market of information for a site of bankers
Bunch of Williams students in this thread. The only people at Amherst who get truly screwed are the ones who need visa sponsorship
i agree
what do they end up doing?
This post is cope. A/W literally have dedicated recruiting pipelines at EVR, CVP, PJT, LAZ, GS, MS, and JPM. Look up A/W alumni at these banks if you're skeptical. In fact, this summer's intern class at PJT M&A is 25% A/W. There are less than a 1,000 people in a A/W class combined, and the vast majority couldn't care less about finance. Out of the people who got offers from these firms in my class (10+ people), maybe half were athletes, but when 30% of the school are athletes, and they disproportionately recruit for finance, that statistic is not relevant. If you seriously think you're not getting looks because you don't play a sport (or aren't DEI), you are not in touch with reality. Source: am a non-DEI, non-nepo, non-athlete and received multiple EB offers. And I didn't need to study for 4 hours a day like OP. This shit is not rocket science, nor is it some insanely laborious task at these schools.
Yea not every student who recruits will get the offer they want, but it's a competitive process wherever you go. No one is entitled to an IB offer. Also, not saying that A/W is on par with Wharton, Harvard etc, for IB recruiting, but they are objectively targets for the top banks. And if you think 80 people seriously recruit for banking each year out of a class of 500, you are delusional. I'd estimate the number (only including people who study and network) is way closer to a number like 30. That's a 1/3 placement rate at the best banks in the world. Name me any school that will give you better odds than that, even if you want to be conservative and estimate a 1/4 or 1/5 placement rate.
On a per capita basis, A/W are unbelievable for finance recruiting and the alumni network is undeniable. There's also just a way better culture at these schools surrounding finance/recruiting. Finance clubs don't have 1% acceptance rates, and you can decide you want to recruit mid-way through sophomore year and be fine (which I did), a privilege you wouldn't get at other schools. The other pro A/W comment in this thread is accurate too. People literally don't get the IB offer they want, and turn around and place at MBB at will. These are elite schools and Wall Street, grad schools, and everyone with power to hire you in this industry knows it.
25% of PJTs incoming class lmao
Do the math
Name you any school? Ok… Cornell 160 people in Dyson, half recruit banking, 35 a year. Stern, 650 class, 350 recruit banking, 125-140 offers. Georgetown… similar to stern. Lots of examples.
“These are elite schools” I’m noticing only the w/a people seem to say this
half of 160 with 35 offers is atrocious?? congrats on UBS man just keep it pushing
Out of the 10, I'm only counting offers for NYC IBD at EVR, CVP, PJT, LAZ, GS, MS, and JPM. Dyson, Stern, and Georgetown aren't getting offers at that rate. If we're including other banking offers, the rate is even higher (in my class).
I go to A/W, got a top EB, and owe everything to this school, and I'm non-nepo/non-dei. My parents are also only upper-middle-class.
Placing MBB at will lol… at mck and there’s no one in my class for NY that I’ve met. Friend at Boston and trust me there’s more northeastern kids than AW
John Amherst literally invented electricity
99% of the people who get offers from LACs are (i) varsity athletes, (ii) rich parents already (maybe they also did the tuck bridge program), or (iii) DEI. Maybe 2-3 people who don't fit any of those criteria will get offers coming from those schools, but it's few and far between.
this is not true, like 5 of my friends, including myself at A/W got offers at EB as non-athletes, non-dei, non-nepo. keep coping
You obviously go to A, in which case I congratulate you, since it must be a good school. But it does not work like that at W
Wesleyan is a sleeper, have you seen our placement numbers per capita? Also considering the very anti-capitalism nature of the school, only 18 or so kids really gun for IB and 14-15 get a BB/EB/MM
Bro ur smoking dick. No way that school places 15 a year😭. That's honestly funny dog
Wes does well if you start prepping earlier. Issue is the less pre-professional environment, which contributes to the lack of early preparation.
at least 15ish across BB/EB/MM sounds about right.
Would say NESECAC recruiting tiers would be the following:
1: Williams Amherst Middlebury
**Steep drop-off**
2: Tufts, Wesleyan, Hamilton
3: Bowdoin, Trinity Colby, Bates
4: Conn college
I have no dog in this fight and no hate but just curious, why does the athlete thing matter so much? I thought this was Division III, which to me in recruiting is not like a UT football player or something. These schools are kind of like just a medium sized high school, like in order to fill out the teams a ton of kids by definition have to be on some team.
Athletes like to network with athletes. Also a UT football player is gonna have a hard time recruiting
Vast majority of kids at these LACs have the social skills of a rock, are gay, or hate capitalism and it bleeds through in every conversation
-
Nescac society is often organized around the sports teams as 1/3 of the kids are on one. NESCAC is the definition of nepo. So some kid on hockey’s mom will be the head of banking at JPM. And so Amherst gets 10 spots at JPM.
It’s not a hard and fast rule, but being on or at least close to sports teams, underground investing society, etc is helpful — though this is not really as true anymore.
These days the 4.0 non athlete super prepared people do better.
If you're an athlete at a top NESCSC, recruiting is far easier than at NYU Stern. Talked to maybe like 20 people and got an offer at top tier BB/EB. Basically everyone you talk to will give you referrals and interviews including seniors. Not saying a non-athlete should pick W/A over Stern, but if your recruited I would 100% pick W/A over Stern
The seething on this post is crazy.
The first year class at GS this year is 12+ Williams kids. Out of 80-100 who recruited. The athlete statistic is irrelevant given +60% of those who recruit are athletes - meaning the proportion of athletes is actually disproportionately lower.
Williams has pipelines to every bank. Study and network with the right people, get a little lucky, same as every other ivy/undergrad bus.
This is cope.
Be creative, figure it out. None of these brands guarantee anything anymore
11/12 were nepo or DEI lol a big shot at GS and her kids friends have been 80% of offers over the past few years. Notice how we got only 4 offers this year and 2/4 were extreme nepo who’d have gotten it even if they went to their state school. Absolute nonsense what you are saying, and if you go to W you are aware of it and actively lying to everyone on here. A disgruntled alum I spoke to as a sophomore said it all, as it becomes more of a meritocracy, there’s gonna continue to be less and less Williams kids each year.
Nepo is nepo, clearly a factor. But you won’t convince me there’s more nepo at W than Yale or Wharton.
W is good enough to get you anywhere. You’re arguing it’s not? Also the concentration of kids recruiting out of W is pretty weak. The kids who push it there do well regardless.
Pls fix.
-
I don't know why people seem to think athletes only help athletes. Some of my most helpful alumni mentors were on sports teams and I'm the least athletic person around
I went to A/W and got into GS Classic. Worked my ass off too because I'm low income non DEI minority. Recruiting is broken though - you have to go through your alumni network if you have OCR and at some of the banks (cough MS, Guggenheim) if you're not rich or white or have certain backgrounds you won't get a sniff. Also you'll do much better prepared for highly technical EB Rx and subsequently PE / HF interviews if you crush it at Stern, Wharton, Ross and were a hardo / in one of the investing clubs. All that said, I'm glad I went to a small LAC with diversity of interests as opposed to being surrounded by sweaty hardos
nvmd
Correct.
Fix your username brother
Lmfao. You should delete this comment so that the quote showing his email goes away.
If u think it’s half ur in for rough ride
Crazy doxx. Literally my first thread on here…
I was an athlete at an east coast LAC around 15 years ago. I always wondered why non-athletes went to these places. Not all that fun, in the middle of nowhere, shitty weather, expensive, etc. The kids who wanted a “business career” were wealthy/connected enough that they could get the job they wanted from any school, they did not need the “better academics” to get what they wanted. Why not go to a big fun state school?
financial aid
I guess if it’s free or the “cheapest” option, but most of the financial aid kids were the athletes or the nerds who “wanted a smaller school”. They were not recruiting for finance. Non athletes going into finance almost always paid full boat since their parents had money. It was country club kids from one of the east coast states who could not get into an Ivy. Feel like all those kids now go to big state schools just making the remaining students almost all nerds. Just what I notice from kids who reach out to me.
From an experience standpoint if you are an athlete I’d say at least go and try it, especially if you are not from the east coast and not borrowing too much do it, playing a college sport regardless of level is a unique experience. I’m still pretty close with a lot of my teammates. But there is no way I’d go to one of these places as a student.
Feeling this, really wish I went to McCombs or Ross. Even recruiting would’ve been easier lol
There's maybe 1 NESCAC that stands above the rest (hint, it's not Williams)...
In the bullpen at my bank, the MDs with kids at NESCACs (or some bush league liberal arts schools like Hobart, frankin and marshall, haverford, etc. ) will talk D3 sports for hours on end as if they are potential NBA draft prospects...except it's about country club sports like lacrosse and tennis LMAO. It's hysterical but is obvious proof that the schools are just nepo baby factories.
Williams alumnus here from >10 years ago who can offer some perspective
I was public school financial aid kid, worked multiple jobs on campus, non-DEI
I got a job at a BB, then moved to buyside and have had a moderately successful career making more than I thought I would in college, kids will hopefully be Williams nepo babies, go ephs
Recruiting at Williams 100% Favors Athletes
There were sport specific recruiting events for football, hockey etc. There were athlete only information sessions. These were not publicized through the career center, just through the networks of the sports teams. I only heard about them through the grapevine.
I had a friend who got a verbal offer from top BB while he was just hanging out at some event for his sport where alumni would come back to campus to visit. It would gross me out when at campuswide recruiting events rich kids would point out their connections in not so subtle ways "my dad says hi!" followed by 15 minute conversation with group head
80% of banking spots at Williams go to athletes that's true
That said, your chances of getting a banking internship are still very good as a non-Athlete non-Nepo
I remember getting the numbers from the career center
Student body at Williams at the time was tiny, ~500 per year, 2k total
JPM was the largest finance recruiter
Only 50 people (10% of the class) applied
30 got a first round interview, 6 got offers
Those are really good odds!
GS, MS etc. had even fewer applicants and each had 2-3 people get offers.
The interviews were really easy because they understand you didn't study finance and assume a lower level of familiarity with the material.
Also, worth noting that most of the smart kids in the class were not interested in finance, bulk of finance applicants are sort of above average 50th-75th percentile in grades.
Compare that to the horror stories I've heard about Stern / Wharton and the Ivies
Hundreds, swarms of people, interested in finance willing to do anything to get the job
Marginally more spots, but far more competitive (numbers and preparedness of applicants)
Also, have met so many Stern people in NY and they are all shockingly one-dimensional, it's incredible. If you try to talk to them about anything outside of finance or spending money, it's quickly apparent they know nothing. Wharton guys for some reason are a little better.
Advice to non-athletes / non-nepo, be proactive and network
When I was on campus, those who were most disillusioned with the recruiting process were public school non athletes who had good grades and had brute forced their way into college with stat maxing, and then thought having a 3.8+ GPA would be enough to get a banking internship. No one told them they needed to network. They didn't want to or were too timid to reach out to alumni, to mix it up at info sessions and build a relationship with someone who might pull for them later in the process. A lot of them ended up in tech back when it wasn't cool, so they're doing fine.
Alumni at Williams were incredibly friendly and eager to help. From associate to MD in banking, alumni were happy to chat over the phone or grab coffee in NY. Even senior people at PE shops that we've all heard of would be happy to chat to a random junior.
I compiled a spreadsheet of every Williams alumnus in the directory (linkedin not widely used yet) and reached out to everyone who worked at a firm I was interested in. Response rate was incredibly high.
I know I risk sounding like the old fart who got a job because of his firm handshake. I had a decent GPA and resume, nothing that really stands out, was not able to get a sophomore internship. I ended up getting ~20 first round interviews my junior year, 6 from BBs rest were consulting, investment firms, smaller banks. 6 final rounds and 3 offers.
The BB I ended up joining, there was an alumnus who I had spoken to on the phone twice in the process to learn about his career / the firm. Never met before / no personal relationship, but he pushed for me to get the offer at the superday and I'm incredibly grateful, he changed the trajectory of my career / life.
You could totally argue I just got really lucky. Maybe it's just the survivorship bias talking, but I think the effectiveness of networking at a small school was a key equalizer.
Anyway, it's totally possible to get a job in banking, but you probably do need to work a little harder than the athletes.
Side note
I thought Williams was a fun school back then, maybe not a lot of variety in terms of parties a lot of beer pong, but still fun, glad IG wasn't really around / people didn't have habit of recording everything. From what I've heard students today just don't drink / party nearly as much anymore, very unfortunate.
also as others pointed out, almost half of the student body plays a sport and more than half of the people interested in finance played a sport, so it's not too surprising most of the people who got jobs were athletes, just a weird NESCAC thing
I'm going to give the Amherst version of the above, but just shorter. I went to a top prep school, went to Amherst for the sport I'm playing (for reference I was good enough for UChicago but not MIT and Amherst/Williams felt like a middle ground for academics + athletics), got a Top BB/EB i mention below andwould like to give my $.02
Most of our best placements are PJT/Evercore/Lazard/Centerview, (1-4 every year at each), 2-4 megafunds/upper middle markets PE every year, along with a few other boutiques (Guggenheim/Perella), and recently, Goldman/Morgan Stanley. Bunch of middle markets, and not really any BoA or citi.
Athlete (benefits the most): This isn't what you are thinking. Being an athlete doesn't get you a verbal offer, or an immediate job, but obviously, if there is an alum of my team at the firm, more likely than not, they will pull for you or be sort of forced to pull for you via coaches/other alums. However, if this isn't the case, being an athlete doesn't put you miles ahead, just marginally improves ur chances. Generally, what i see is that athletes (at least on my team), were connected and could have landed processes regardless of what school they went to.
That said a lot of my friends are non-athletes, and crushed it while I know other athletes who didn't so keep that in mind.
Networking: Most alums will respond regardless of athlete/non-athlete, never had a situation where I've been ghosted or treated badly in general. I'd reckon, 80% response rate, but I suppose it's been a little lower this year bc of all the outreach.
OCR: Not really much on-campus recruiting besides Centerview and a bunch of MMs like RBC, but a lot of strong alumni pull through the other boutiques.
Nepo: We do not have as much nepo as the ephs. Like sure, we have children of MDs, but it's not as blatant as Williams.
Club Culture: N/A, no club apps or whatever, and not super competitive.
Beyond that, it isn't super hard to keep a 3.8+, go to practice/be in-season, prep technicals, however a lot of is luck, and again like anywhere else, it's also who you know...
Went to similar school and jw what your thoughts are on best connected team that converts on it the most too.
I.e. lax often very connected and also very unfocused students. Hockey usually also somewhat connected and also like 25 as freshmen so they are a bit more mature. Squash is an obvious one. Field hockey great for IR I imagine.
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