Just How Screwed am I?
I failed to make it into investment banking despite 10+ interviews and got a valuation job instead. However, I am not a 3.5 GPA nontarget kid who did not try until they learned about IB too late. I had a 3.9 GPA from a semi-target school in a tough major (physics). I also did an IB and PE internship and served in leadership roles in two clubs. I have done mocks with actual bankers and networked with over 60. I did not do SA recruiting and only did FT recruiting this year, which was impacted by COVID. If I failed to make it into IB now with a better than average resume, how on earth will I make it into banking lateral positions competing against actual bankers whose resume will blow mine to shreds? Since I have a decent resume, it will be obvious I failed to make it into IB. I really want to work at a HF since investing is in my blood according to one of my past managers, but I may not have a chance of making it if I can not get into IB in the first place.
If you had 10+ interviews, your resume clearly isn’t the issue. It is your interview skills. Did you miss technicals? Were you weird? How did you handle behaviorals? You should try to figure out what went wrong before you try to lateral, or else you will just waste your time. As far as you being “screwed” goes, no, you are not screwed. You may need to focus on smaller/less competitive shops, but you should be able to make the move if you are hungry for it.
I only missed two technicals during the whole interview process and made it to the super day in one of interviews were I missed a technical, so I am good there. I used the WSO behavioral guide and the M&I 400 guide for behaviorals by using anecdotes that matched recommended formats. I did mock interviews with actual bankers and they said my answers were good. The only reason I can think of is that I am introverted and do not come off as enthusiastic as some extroverted candidates might, but I am no tool and do not have autism. No one has called me wired or given me strange looks in any context before, so I doubt I am coming off as wired. I have chess, travel, and running as interests.
Maybe you're overprepared for the behavioral's and you're not coming off as genuine. Overprepared is just as bad as under sometimes because the interviewers can sense you thinking too much, looking for the perfect answer instead of YOUR answer. Banking is fit based at the analyst level, most people come in woefully underprepared for the real rigors of the banking and the interviewers want to make sure that they will be able to put up with you through the training process. Just calm down, take a breath and work on being natural during the interview, speak with confidence but don't sound rehearsed. You'll be fine, IB isn't the only path to success.
They might have just thought you were a loser...?
Just going off the “investment is in my blood” line.
Agree with right above. Thats proof he came across super awkward in interviews...
This is what the PE principal told me after my internship at a PE firm. I never said my plan was to go into investing and rarely got questioned if I wanted to go into the buyside.
The “Merovingian Bloodline”
If you have 3.9 in Physics, then I suppose technicals isn't the issue. You might get dinged because of 'fit'.
If you like investing, and have a mathematical mind, then go for quant.
You got dinged if you mentioned investing lol
I never mentioned I wanted to go into investing. In interviews, I said I did not like the sourcing aspect in my PE internship and how I liked talking to the IB MD about how the deals he worked on and how he marketed business and how this drew me to IB over investing. I also mentioned how a HF manger came to one of my classes and recommended against going into HF due to lower fees and job instability. I also talked about another HF manager who came to my class and talked about how he spent all his time reviewing proxies and glassdoor, and this did not interest me. Most interviews did not ask me if I wanted to go into investing and they seem satisfied with my answer when it came up.
one comment....you should strive to never mention ANYTHING negative about your prior experience...think like a politician...i love everybody, and everybody should love me...but THESE people i love even MORE...
"i enjoyed all of my internships, PE and IB...but i found myself particularly interested in the transactional deal nature of investment banking, and the process that builds up to a deal"
similar to the HF comments...when you are coming from a position of weakness (you are interviewing for a job, you are the weak side of the table)...you should only have positive things to say..you love everybody, everybody loves you...even difficult relationships...its just all love.
this is a subtle art of conversation...and this seems to be where you failed
How did you study for technicals?
I went over the M&I 400 guide and made sure to understand why the answers are what they are. I also constructed the models on my own. Technicals were not the issue. I only missed two questions over 10 interviews, and made it to the superday one of the times I missed.
Yeah you’re technicals, CV, grades and experience were not the issue. The final part is your personality....
Agree with Maria, missing few technicals isn't the issue, probably the way u presented yourself / personality
Have interviewed kids who gets every technical right and is clearly smart but is so socially inept that it makes it easy to ding them
You’re definitely just weird as fuck.
Honestly, maybe you should recruit for HF/quant roles, since investing is in your blood
So you have a great resume, a great GPA from a semi target, and strong technicals, but didn’t get any offers. The only explanation is that you weren’t personable, and your interviewers didn’t like you enough to push for you.
And honestly, I can see signs of an off-putting personality in this post. It seems like you’re not really interested in banking, and only see it as a necessary stepping stone to get to the job you really want, which is investing. I’m sure you didn’t say that explicitly during your interviews, but I have to wonder whether you conveyed an attitude of superiority that rubbed your interviewers the wrong way. Chances are these places gave an offer to someone who demonstrated a little more humility and a more genuine interest in the job. (Yes, most people have no intention of being in banking long-term, but they also have convincing answers in interviews for why they were born to bank)
I could be completely wrong, but that’s my hunch. Do some critical self-reflection, because if 10 different places are turning you down, the problem is you not them.
also...physics is not a "natural" college major to go into IB...Investment Banking is at the root, an advisory business....the MDs are all "relationship people"...physics being a hard science would more lend itself to trading, software developer, quant, research analyst - yes...but advisory finance work...no
Not sure why you got MS’d. Hard sciences typically lends itself to quant/trading.
If you check the search feature on WSO you will find Physics majors breaking in, some even developed their own trading platforms.
The good news is that with your background (if it's true) you are clearly smart, and capable of working hard.
The bad news is that your interpersonal skills are probably lacking. After 10+ interviews I imagine that this is the common denominator. Work on being more sociable. Observe the various ways in which people can be charismatic. This honestly should help you in-life in general.
Also, you are recruiting during one of the worst job markets in modern-history. You can absolutely re-recruit after 1 year working FT.
I'm sorry but if you have a 3.9 gpa majoring in physics, you are at least somewhat weird. I don't know any STEM kids at my school with a gpa nearly as good as yours because I assume the ones with a 3.9 are studying all day. Most of my friends in engineering or premed have like 3.2 - 3.3 gpa. I'm not saying you should intentionally lower your grades, but try doing something other than studying (preferably something more social).
As others have mentioned, you seem to have a slight heir of superiority or entitlement. Just because you have a 3.9gpa, majored in physics, and had good internships, does not necessarily mean you deserve an IB role more than someone else. When I was recruiting, an MD at the BB I will be joining said that humility was the trait he looked for the most when interviewing candidates.
*also, I would suggest removing "travel" from your interests on your resume. That's what every basic person puts when they want to come off as interesting or "worldly." Everyone likes traveling lol. Replace it with something that is actually unique to you
You probably were put on a lot of "maybe" lists but you probably lost out to people who the interviewers got along with better. Anybody can have good grades and get technicals right. While easy missed technicals can sink a candidate, much more weight is placed on whether or not they enjoyed talking with you. If you suck as a conversationalist with strangers, unable to diffuse a tense atmosphere with funny, interesting small talk and making people comfortable talking with you, you're dead on arrival mate. At that point they're just interviewing you to fill out interview spots while reserving their top draft pick for someone who has the grades, the internships, and was just enjoyable to talk with. They're mostly screening for smart candidates they can stand working long hours with. You need to work on being more personable or else you'll never get a second date.
From reading this thread sounds like a fit issue.
My advice: take a tab or two of acid and go to a party. If you make it through your trip without having a panic attack, you'll be way more personable and crush your next interview!
From my reading both of you sound like fucking weirdos
You hit the nail on the first sentence.
However, I wouldn’t recc’d doing drugs.
Most people I've networked with didn't start out in front office, you're fine. I usually talk to people more on the macro trading type side but I talked once to a guy in the opportunistic credit space at a top fund and he started out at a tiny sub $300 mil credit fund while his coworkers mainly started out in the IB grind.
Okay guys, we might have stumbled on something beautiful in this post. "Investing is in my blood" might just have the disruptive meme potential needed to save wso.
Op the type of guy to think being nice to a woman means that he will get pussy. On a more serious note, if that rejection and feeling of sadness does not light a fire under you to work 1000x harder then honestly nothing will. No one has time to help you or pat you on the back because the truth is that if you want to work at a hf so bad then you will develop the mental strength to stop feeling sorry for yourself and instead formulate a plan on how to get there even if it takes longer or forces you to go on a different path. Drop the investing is my destiny bullshit because NO ONE was born to read financial statements and instead just be a simple hardworking person.
OP I genuinely despise you and I would haze you until you got severe anxiety of going through comps but if you take my advice you might actually be on a good track.
A few guesses:
1) FT recruiting for next year was absolutely brutal for kids without SA experience. Tons of super capable applicants were left out.
2) Your resume isn’t that great. You weren’t a SA. A semi-target is just that. Colleges all have a billion clubs with a million “officers” each. Majors don’t matter too much and 3.9s are getting more and more common with grade inflation. All in all, it’s definitely workable and got you in the door, but not a differentiator.
3) It’s tough to say “I only missed x” technicals. Interviewers are busy and might move on after you give an incomplete answer. If the interview isn’t going well (for whatever reason), some people will just cut it short. So it might feel like you got 4/4, but you really got 2.5/4 and he didn’t ask you #s 6-10.
4) I can tell by your post (never mind the 10+ misses in interviews) that you are somewhat off-putting in person, if you speak anything like you write. It’s hard to pin down exactly, but I’ll try:
i) Your phrasing is somewhat odd. Syntax is a bit disjointed / staccato, and word choice is unnecessarily jarring and repetitive (“failed,” “actual,” “blow to shreds”)
ii) The details you give are ‘lumpy.’ You fixate on precise numerical examples for your claims (# interviews, GPA, networking, etc.), which can be a bit boring for the listener, but don’t mention your prep content, feedback you received, or why you didn’t do a SA stint.
iii) You may come off as pretentious, if not a bit deluded. You say you’re not like the Johnny-come-lately 3.5 kid, but you didn’t recruit for SA, which is how 95% of people get FT roles. You spent most of the post talking about how good your resume is when there are 10 kids with awesome resumes for every seat at BBs. There’s an overarching sense of ‘I deserve this job,’ which I’ll bet people picked up on.
iv) “Investing is in my blood according to one of my past managers” is an extremely bizarre statement. The word choice is again strange, IB isn’t an investing role, people usually let their scores and performance speak to genetic aptitude (rather than make explicit claims in interviews), and it feels like you’re putting too much stock in an unverifiable, unimportant (from interviewer’s perspective), and perhaps offhand comment, rather than stating your own case. Its inclusion highlights some of the key issues — communication oddity, lack of self-awareness, some degree of ignorance about IB and the recruiting process, and an air of entitlement — that may have kept you from a job this cycle.
I’m sure OP missed out on SA for the same reason he fucked up FT... basically everything you outlined
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