So, I want to add to the Love Line discussion something I brought up over the weekend at dinner with friends over heavy drinking. For my wife’s work, her good looks plays a big part in her sales. She’s turning 40 this year and although she looks great, the psychological factor of turning 40 gets to her. We are around the same age, I’m less than one year older.
I did say something a bit insensitive at dinner, that our friend who is my wife’s same age works as a knowledge worker so she doesn’t not feel the same career insecurity as her getting older. Wasn’t dissing her intelligence, but trying to make an important distinction and dissect the insecurity about age.
There was some of the Eat Pray Love discussion, where the woman runs away from a decent guy to pursue her elusive desires around the world. I usually express my distain for that attitude (after all I’m that decent guy) but the come back was “at least they did not have kids” so she could do all that.
So, I brought up something I learned on a podcast (perhaps Tim Ferriss) couple years ago of a guest who spoke about 43 being the age he see’s the most divorces. Why?
Podcast Guest: because that’s the age you’re feeling like you still have the ability to pivot and if you have kids they might be old enough, that leaving won’t be too bad.
My Wife: probably comes from the woman [the divorce] and it’s probably because there’s still a chance for a new life (early 40’s) using what’s left of sex appeal.
My thoughts: this slow motion train wreck called turning 40 and the aftermath, can lead to insecurity, a mental shift of “time is not on your side”, unhappiness, and maybe even divorce.
Society and people I’ve known in the past have mentioned axioms:
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40 is the new 30’s
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the older you get the more you know how to enjoy life
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you learn in your 20-30’s, you do in your 40-50’s, give back in your 60+
Caveat: just prior to the Pandemic, I attended my 20th high school reunion and obviously there’s looking forward to seeing old friends and the girls I liked. We would be around 38. For my 30th reunion, we’d be closer to 50. Somewhere between those numbers is a psychological shift in me too.
For you monkeys old enough to be around 40 or above, how do you navigate this mental shift? How do you help your spouse? How do you prevent “43” from happening?
At dinner, I had a follow up ask: what % of the economy is driven by sex appeal? The answers ranged from 15% - 50% (for Las Vegas economy 100%). Anyways, I think age, sex, and motivations are related.
Do you have kids? If so and your wife is family-oriented, then it's less big of a deal
Yes, have kids. Kids are big reason to stay together. Spending half our lives together is another reason, and the what we’ve done for each other.
Absolutely love conversations like these, much more fun and engaging than the usual banter. No idea if your theory is true (havent looked at divorce data) to see if there is a spike in mid 40s. Makes some sense:
- as you get to a certain age the opportunity cost of divorce changes. If you are 60 then do you really want to start again / join the single lifestyle?
- A lot of marriages 'do it for the kids' which means divorce when they become young adults (18+) or maybe a bit younger than that. Which would fit a little into your timeline, if not a bit early
- MAJORITY of people enter relationships and marriage in a situation where they dont have much choice.They have little experience dating around, little idea of what they want, and often little self worth themselves. In short they dont have much control in their dating lives - maybe by 40s they finally have an understanding of what they want.
- From a male perspective this is where you are very established in terms of finances and career. You might be partner at a firm, a doctor with student debt cleared, have 7 figure net worth, etc. A lot of successful guys in those fields have 'starter wives' that they replace with someone 10 years younger when the right time comes
- From a female perspective the two biggest needs for relationships are child rearing and companionship. MANY women will forgo that latter to ensure the former, the ability to be a mother. That means you have a husband but you believe you settled for him. At 42 you could have all the kids you want (2-3) and now realize your husband isnt who you want as a life partner.
All the above just theories and ideas though. But interesting discussion.
As people get older, they tend to value different things more. We started dating in college, so there was physical attraction, personality, and ambition.
The mating marketplace in college is active and deep.
Getting Older and Single
At least for women, I’ve noticed as they get older, physical attraction takes less of a priority to financial security then personality.
Older men, it’s physical attraction but less, and more ability to start a family, personality.
All these factors are weighted against the market supply.
All generalization, but observations of my age cohort.
No better man to ask than homie Billy G from Microsoft. Especially, if it’s about living that single life again at an older age
Follow-up thought on economy being sex driven. IMO probably 20-50%. Definitely not 100%. There are things such as shelter, food, healthcare that will be placed above sexual desire in terms of need that make up large portions of the economy. Of course it could be related (if I have a nicer house I can get more women) but at some baseline you will want a house to keep you safe and warm before that.
I do believe that almost everything , ESPECIALLY marketing, is tied to sex. For women it can be staying / looking young and fertile. For men, powerful , strong, and ability to provide. Men want that next promotion/better job/newer phone/designer clothes / etc, not because they like what they do or need it - but because it signals success. People in finance say they like their jobs. Bullshit, they like the prestige and the money associated for it. If you could make six figures out of undergrad making sculptures out of pig shit and it came with a fancy title and penthouse apartment then yea you would convince yourself you like that job too
This reminds me of a comment I made on WSO about an interesting and out of place chapter in the book “Think and Grow Rich” by Napoleon Hill (Chapter 11: The Mystery of Sexual Transmutation). This book was written something like 100 years ago and Hill interviewed the masters of industry back then (and the advice is timeless).
I googled for a brief summary:
Sex transmutation is re-directing the mind from thoughts of physical expression to thoughts of another creative effort. According to Hill, doing this has the potential to… And that's what sexual energy or desire has to do with getting rich and manifesting your dreams.
I think there a lot of young monkeys on here, horny and wanting to achieve and get all the rewards of that. I think that’s great. Channeling that sexual energy to achieve your dreams, that’s something to learn how to control and put to good use.
The best example I’ve seen this is guys learning an incredibly hard language with one main goal of meeting girls from that culture. They have that energy to master that and seek the feedback loop.
Great topic OP. Personally as a 32yr old I would echo what the above poster said, in that guys frequently settle down with girls because they lack confidence or worry something better won’t come along, while a lot of women settle as they get to late 20s/early 30s so they can raise a family.
At least that’s what I’ve seen from my social circle (mostly guys). Interestingly it’s not related to how old the couples were when they met - personally there’s no way I would have wanted to settle down at under 25 (I’m still single now) but that’s just me. Two of my close friends met their wives in college and now have kids, another met his wife at 28 and has just had his first child - all of those couples genuinely seem very compatible and happy.
But sadly they seem to be the minority (at least in my friendship circles lol) - the remainder of my guy mates who have settled down don’t seem particularly happy or even content tbh. Despite the fact they’re all relatively successful, decent or at least ok-looking, underneath I think they either lack confidence in dating or think “I’m 30 now it’s time to settle down.”
If they were really happy then fine, they made the right choice - but tbh most of those guys are now married to women who are ok looking but not amazing, don’t have particularly great personalities (or at least not ones compatible with my respective mates) and neither party in the relationship seems particularly happy.
I think they just maybe have the view “let’s slog it out, it’s all part of life” which to me seems quite depressing. Don’t get me wrong - all relationships have ups and downs, and no marriage is always like a Hallmark movie, but I think there’s a difference between that and what I’ve seen.
The thing is I imagine if I confronted those guys right now with my views (which of course I wouldn’t do, it’s certainly not my business or place) they would just be in denial, they probably don’t even realize it themselves.
Yet as the other poster pointed out, I think once you hit 40-45 you realize that while you still have time to change the course of your life, time is rapidly running out - it’s now or never. Which would explain why you see a lot of midlife crises (and probably divorce as you say, I don’t know the figures though) once people hit their 40s.
When you view your friends relationships do you generally view it in a winner/loser setting. Like "he can do so much better why is he with her" or vice versa? I feel most of the women my colleagues date have pretty awful personalities. They are generally financially supported by their spouse but are pretty ungrateful, complain a lot, demanding, etc.
Meanwhile, dont think the men are catches either. Usually have no real hobbies outside of their jobs and watching football
IMO it sums up to just a small percentage (maybe 5-10%) of people who are self aware, driven, mentally/physically healthy, etc. and the rest are just unhappy unfulfilled people finding one another
Good question. Personally I think in an ideal world it shouldn’t be a winner/loser situation - of course one partner might always be slightly better looking/nicer/more successful, but generally you would hope that both people in the relationship are getting enriched. This can be in a myriad of ways - anything from a couple of two successful professionals who both work long hours but don’t want kids, and enjoy a constant work hard/play hard lifestyle - to a one-income household where the husband works hard and the wife is happy to take care of the kids/household.
What I’m trying to say (not very succinctly admittedly) is it’s whatever works for a specific couple depending on what they want out of life - ie it’s compatibility more than anything that matters.
But yes a lot of my guy friends are in relationships like you describe. The thing is they’re all great people (being their friend I’m obviously biased) but it just seems like they settled for someone they’re not compatible with. Eg some of my friends are with gfs/wives who absolutely thrive on drama - ie blowing up any incident ridiculously out of proportion, having big arguments etc. Now that type if relationship isn’t for me (believe me I’ve experienced it!) but some couples are successful even though they’re both very “passionate” all the time. The problem though is that my friends with dramatic wives are the type of people who don’t enjoy that kind of stuff. And as mentioned their wives aren’t particularly attractive - so I honestly think they could have all found someone a lot “better” (or at least much more compatible).
Also I can imagine these incompatibilities/resentments only fester and get worse over time - eg in the examples you mentioned, your friends will get more and more irritated by their wives’ abrasive personalities. While the wives will likely become less and less content being with a “boring” guy just so she can have a family and doesn’t have to work. I think at the start of a marriage there’s likely also a big novelty/freshness factor + no-one wants to give up on a marriage in the first few years. Ten years down the road could be a different story though…
Caveat here that I’m single and have never been married haha. However I think it will be interesting to see how my friendship group looks in a decade’s time in terms of relationships, how many of them will be divorced etc.
Sequoia and I had a back and forth on dating markets. Talk about supply and demand of the dating pool as we get older.
https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/comment/2004265#comment-2004265
lol nvm —
ewwww gross dude
My moms cousin is going through this now. Got into his early 40s, beautiful wife and three kids but decided to start sleeping around because he got married young and felt “incomplete” last we heard he left his family, got fired from his job, and is married to some 22 year old stripper and has become addicted to drugs.
What a legend.
At least he's enjoying life. Either his kids or his wife will blow his money when he dies.
Explains why the jealous dudes at Oscar Awards Committee held off for so long
Counter point to this...it benefits Leo to be seen out in public with this chicks, helps both of their "brands".
Meaning, who knows, that could be his public girlfriend, and he could have private ones closer to his age.
Interesting topic of conversation. Only thing I'd add is that I think the word settle is often misused/misunderstood. For the most part I don't think people are settling per se so much as shifting priorities and targeting different qualities. Because we live in a superficial society and deviation away form looks to other qualities are perceived as settling. So the guy that used to date the hot vapid types but marries a plain jane can be perceived as settling but really its that he might be focused on more familial qualities. Same for a women that used to date the more bad boy types that ends up with less exciting stable career guy. While there are people that have the best of every quality - looks, values, career, etc. its pretty rare and at some point trade offs need to be made. To a large degree its less settling and more maturing. Of course there really are situation in which people do settle, but broadly speaking I think the term is misused.
Completely agree here. For clarity in my above posts where I referred to “settling” that was on an “overall” basis - ie the combination of looks, personality, your individual compatibility with them.
I mean there’s a good reason why a lot of billionaires are married to women who are attractive but not 10/10s - and that’s not because they’ve settled. Rather it’s the fact that the novelty of going out with a stunner really does fade (take it from someone who went out with a 9/10 who had a toxic personality - the novelty fades fast). And this is a person who should be your life partner - someone who you can have intelligent conversations with, make you laugh, be a good mother to your future kids - in summary a companion for sailing the ocean of life rather than an anchor constantly dragging you down.
With some of my friends though, I think they really have settled - they seem to be quite discontent generally, and their wives aren’t particularly attractive and don’t seem to have great personalities and they don’t seem to be that compatible even. Now that is settling I think.
So true! Would give a thousand silver bananas, if allowed!
Older gentlemen of the forums, on a similar note - are your friends who married the career oriented women the happiest, or the ones who were married to less career oriented / more family oriented.
In my experience this doesn't factor in to being "happy". I have friends with career wives and stay at home wives...just because the wife works doesn't mean she isn't family oriented and just because the wife doesn't doesn't always mean she is family first. Phrased differently, the career or lack thereof of ones wife does not seem to impact the satisfaction of my friends marriages.
Wow what a really mean thing to say about your wife in public.
I may say mean stuff to my wife when I’m mad or want to annoy her, but I never insult her in public like that lol.
You’re vicious.
interesting topic and highlights the fact all men should study inter sex dynamic theories BEFORE LTRs (long term relationships) rather than wander in to it / rely on RomComs for false advice.
anyways, how much is your wife declining a 40? I've seen an absolute dog in sales who were 50+, but her confidence carried her career. womens SMV (sexual market value) starts declining at 23. men peak at 35.
I have friends who got together at 16, had kids at 25, she's a dime piece, and he is pretty much getting domestically abused. and he had no say in whether they had kids either. how long will they last ? not sure but if he continues to act subservient maybe she will leave @ 43
I'm a guy and beg to differ with you that women’s sex appeal declines at 23.
I said sexual market value not sex appeal. women have a biological clock my guy.
Interesting discussion.
I'm not in my early 40s, but early/mid-30s, and I'm married to someone my age/have a newborn.
Some thoughts:
- By 'slow-motion train wreck' I assume you're talking about midlife crisis. That's a very real thing and could be a contributing factor
- People change as they age. What was a great relationship in earlier years may change along with the person/their motivations/fears/etc.
- I'd be very curious to see 1) the frequency and distribution of the age the people were when married that got divorced in their 40s (my assumption is earlier age married would have more concentration of divorces); 2) the reasoning behind the divorce (e.g., financial, emotional, combination)
- Not to disparage Tim Ferriss (I think 4 hour work week and 4 hour body are great. Though the former may be a bit antiquated now as opposed to when it was released), but is he really the authority here? What do marriage counselors, divorce lawyers, experts on the subject have to say?
Either way, +1 SB for a good conversation starter.
I found the episode with the founder of Lululemon who said this:
“Chip Wilson: Physical glasses. And I also noticed there was incredible correlation of people getting divorced at 43. And I started to look at what was going on and I thought, I think you get glasses, and I think for the first time in your life, it occurs to people that they’re going to die. And I think they start thinking about, what happens on my deathbed? A lot of things that I think matter, don’t matter. And a lot of things I’m doing, if I do this for the rest of my life, I’m going to die a miserable death. And I think people really start looking at the person they’re married to, the children they have, the city they live in, the job they have. Of course this is what occurs in men’s midlife crisis, but I think the same thing happens to women. Men probably go out and buy that red convertible or they did at one point, I think they’ve probably found something else now, but you get the idea. It’s a come-to-Jesus moment about what life really is.
And I think the kids, what happens at 43, I think the children are 13 years old, because I’d say most people get married at 30, and suddenly the children don’t really want to be around the parents anymore and don’t need the parents. And the parents don’t really know what to do with themselves, especially if the couple is living vicariously through their children. Now, you’re 43 and you might be having children right now. My assistant just had, he’s 42, just had a child, things are changing drastically about how long people are waiting to have children, so that age may change.”
https://tim.blog/2021/05/21/chip-wilson-transcript/amp/
So, he’s not a marriage expert but probably has a lot of reps observing things and has good instincts.
But, I also see the patterns/signs of a mid-life crisis and being 40 years old, can see how those feelings metastasize over time, if not corrected (what will happen in 3 years to 43?).
Therefore, this discussion.
Good context
Existential crisis about death at 42 ? Fuck, I've had that since my 20s lol
If you're an athlete and you realize you cant hit certain personal records, or have more frequent injuries, or longer recovery times, etc. after your early-mid 20s and into 30s then you come to terms with this realization fast, and do everything you can to hold on
Social media and dating apps cater to women, and have changed the game.
Honestly, it is women. Man haven't changed, not really. In fact that whole complain in marriage is that the man marries the women hoping she will never change, but she does. When I say women, it is feminism that is hurting women and their happiness. The modern woman feels nothing of working her whole life for a boss(likely a man), but not for her husband. She has to work, raise kids and a marriage. Let's be honest that is a lot. Kids, especially young ones have a greater need for the mother than for the father, not to say his role is unimportant. I rather think the opposite, but for all their cuts scrapes, crying they go to Mom for help. So a woman's plate is full, so much so that she likely doesn't even have time or energy for intimacy with her husband. I have seen women leave marriages who suddenly regain their libido. Women were not made to mentally handle the constant stress or working, kids, and marriage. Men can handle constant stress of working 12-16 hour days, with the addition of family duties.
Men cheat cause they fear death, women don't have that same existential dread, and I'm not sure why. That LuLu quote above hit the nail on the head. I have what, 20 more "good" years before my dick stops working and I lose all the muscle I gained over the first half of my life. I want to make sure that gets used or appreciated.
Statistics on anti-depressants and anti-anxiety usage among young women would agree with you. It's commonplace, normal, and accepted to need medication and therapy - to the point where it's considered 'toxic' to question any of it.
In reality stop trying to fix the symptoms and instead address the underlying issue. Working 60 hours a week at a soulless marketing agency for the right to live in a 400 sqft studio apartment and look forward to a new guy friday night and the same brunch saturday morning is not how humans were wired to live
Lol at thinking cheating is because guys fear death. So why do women cheat? Fearing death is a ridiculous cop out. Guys do it for the ego boost.
guys cheat because the opportunity presented itself
For the older guys here....is it true that the dating market "shifts" around late 20's/early 30's? What I mean by that is, right now at my age (early 20s), I'd say that the dating market is by and large dictated by women. They run the show. And although it's probably always been this way, the advent of dating apps has made this unbelievably skewed. At my age, I feel like women value (by far) looks, and status; and by status, I also mean perceived status, so they look for a partner that would be perceived by others and society to be "high-value", like the stereotypical tall, muscular guy with chiseled looks. And although this might be controversial, I do believe white guys have a huge advantage as they are automatically perceived to be higher value than an ethnic guy, and this is due to a variety of factors, biggest one being that ethnic guys have a bunch of negative stereotypes and lack of media representation working against them. I'm also noticing that women my age are more than happy to stay single if they can't get that high-value type of guy, rather than settle for some average man.
But I've heard that around late 20's/early 30's, women's' priorities shift, men start having a bit more power in the dating market, and women start weighing things like financial stability and personality much more than just a chiseled jaw line, although I don't know how much I believe of this. It sounds like some sort of revenge theory from average men, that believe that women hit a "wall" around this age and thus, start to get "desperate". But in this day and age, with so many options like Botox or even just great skin care and diet, people (and women) are looking better than ever even as they age. Hell, women are even freezing their eggs now in order to have kids a lot later in their life if they want to focus on their career or otherwise. And I mentioned dating apps before because now guys aren't just competing with other guys in their community, they are competing with men all around the world, since a "better" man is hypothetically just one swipe away on a woman's phone.
Curious to hear older guys's thoughts and experiences with this.
Yes this is 100% true, though not as guaranteed as what you may read online. Your value and dating leverage go up as a guy with age IF you actually take care of yourself:
- get/stay fit (most people give up in 20s and wheels fall off in 30s)
- Develop a personality. You likely have no idea what you want in life at 22, by 32 you should have more developed hobbies/interests/goals
- career. You either have a crap wage job 18-25 or low end of totem pole on some corporate job. Late 20s-30s you should have more money, actual career path, etc. Especially if you are on this site
- Confidence. You gain confidence with life. Through trying , failing, winning, losing, etc.
If from 22 to 32 you are still overweight, your hobbies are fortnite, and you dont have a serious profession then no, women wont fall on your lap. But if you take care of yourself then at 32-35 you can basically still date women in their 20s and the guys their age simply wont be able to compete with you (ask a 33 year old guy how they compete with their 23 year old former self). You still have looks, energy, etc. and women are more than willing to date up. Also towards late 20s for a woman the biological clock starts ticking loudly and the need to settle down grows (dont get trapped here with someones leftovers). There is a massive power dynamic change. If you dont feel it at 30 then frankly you are doing something wrong.
Very insightful answer, thank you! I've definitely noticed a lot of what you mentioned.
Right now at my age (22), all of my peers are more or less on equal footing (just finishing college, entry level job, maybe some debt), but I think around early 30s is when you start seeing people's lives diverge greatly: some men are obese, in some shoddy apartment driving a run-down car in an unstable job, and other men are reaching executive-level positions and still look healthy/fit, and have tons of dating options.
I guess what decides which guy you become is really the effort you put in the ten years leading up to early 30s and maybe a little bit of luck.
Girls get "Baby Rabies" in their late 20s and it screams into overdrive at 30!
I've noticed a lot of women putting aside relationships/dating to focus on their career but then later regret that there are "no good guys" left, when they finally start dating after 30, and they seem to think that having a PhD is more important than youth/beauty when it comes to securing a "high-value" man, but I don't think this is true if you look at the dating patterns of these men. Happened to a couple of my female cousins
Absolutely true, very powerful shift indeed.
A lot of women find men even more attractive in their 30s and some women will straight up say peak attractiveness for men are men in their mid to late 30s. Their value is shifting down yours is going way way up. You can even tell just listening to womens convos - with just a few data points they will be all over a guy in their 30s (good job, good sense of humor, no girlfriend - ok maybe I can marry him- yes they can get down to it that fast).
Love this conversation
Honestly, I just tell my wife she’s so damn hot every now and then. The wife will always have insecurity throughout the rest of life about aging, but you being that constant voice appreciating her beauty because of, not despite of, her age will help her feel truly loved, and by extension feel attractive. Aging is also the evidence that you’ve spent a lifetime together. If she is feeling insecure, there is probably a deeper issue of wanting the “what ifs”. So it’ll be important to ask her what aspirations are etc. even if you’ve been together for many years. I think it’s our jobs as husbands to make sure your wife could not have lived a better life within our own abilities.
A true gentleman. Bravo sir
Probably overdid it here… watched Notebook one too many times…
Been married now for better part of a decade. I always dated pretty top notch women (wasn’t just easy for me to do so, had to put in the work but I was selective) and from what I have seen pre-marriage and especially what I’m hearing about today, I don’t want any part of the dating scene and I am very glad to be married to an attractive and stable lady. Having kids is extremely challenging and it will test you and your spouse, but if your partner is pretty stable (for a female) and attractive and can interact well with you and others you are doing pretty dang well. it’s amazing how hard that is to come by, really weird.
Yes my net worth is materially higher now, I could fly private and drive an exotic and have a place or two if I was on my own, but besides enjoying some of those things and likely having fun on the dating scene by virtue of having those items at my disposal I’m glad to be married and have my awesome kids. Some days you may daydream about what it would be like if you were to be on your own and making this kind of money, but I got a lot of the partying and chasing and spending out of my system when I was in my 20s and early 30s bc now it’s like I don’t even have the desire for it and neither do my buds who are also now all married (one a surgeon, one works for gov at a high level, one very successful FA all around my age)
I think here's the main thing, we've found ways to live much longer than in the past. However, per biology, woman haven't found a way to extent the age they can get pregnant (yes, they can freeze eggs, but its healthier/easier to be pregnant if you're 26 vs 46). When the top age for people was in their 60s, they were still pretty old when they were 45, why get divorced and then find someone with only a few years of life. Now, you still have half/more than half your life left.
Also, I think dating/marriage/kids, for woman, its half a status symbol and more a peer pressure idea. So, I think a decent amount of marriages are more to have kids and not built for the long term. So when married people get to 45, they might want different things, so why be together.
At OP, on the sex appeal question, I'd say higher than 50% (at least in America). Every product is basically buy this or that because it will make you more of a man or more attractive/beautiful. On top of that, with social media and the ability to take instant pictures, people always want to look their best, so there is that much more pressure.
In regards to woman, feminism/equality strides, at the end of the day men and woman know woman are just judged by hot they look (hate to say it but its true). If you start dating a new girl, first thing your buddies ask is "is she hot". You can't really recover and say, "no, but she has a good job...shes a good cook..." (something to that nature). Other the other foot, if a woman dates a new guy, he doesn't have to be super good looking if he has a good job/takes care of her. For example, look at Jennifer Lopez, shes basically famous for being hot. Which do you think would make her fall out of the public eye faster, if she shaved her head and gained 70 lbs, or if they said you can't (pick one) sing/dance/act again?
Following on the above, its more difficult to guys to date now, I think, because they need to bring way more than woman. When I say the above that woman need to be hot, thats not one size fits all (one person's Hillary Duff is the next person's Zendaya). For guys though, its, they need to be 6 ft, in shape, have a good job, have this/that. I think with a lot of woman they want that or nothing else. Forgot where I read it, but its basically, you have 80% of woman chasing 20% of men.
80/20 rule is true, but that doesnt mean that only 20% of men will have relationships/marriage/etc. Just one look around will tell you that's not the case. But it is the percentage of men (maybe even less) that are PHYSICALLY attractive to women - and to be a physically attractive guy the threshold is much higher. But women can still fall for guys they might physically be indifferent to based on their status, job, personality, charisma, etc. Have also seen this happen firsthand as well.
The biggest losers here are the worker bee schlubs who did what they were told, got a nice job, and would get rewarded with the ability to start a family. As you said women can financially take care of themselves now so what they want in a guy has moved more towards physical traits than financial. That's not a bad thing if you are a guy and are reading this. The threshold to be a top 20% dude or to be physically attractive ISNT that high. Yes the cliche '6 ft, 6 pack, yada yada yada' BS people online spout about dude will always have an edge. But the average guy today is overweight or skinny fat, dresses like a kid with a Marvel or Star Wars t shirt, and has no real intesrests.
Even without Chris Hemsworth genetics if you eat right, work out 3-4x a week, wear clothes that fit, have a real career, etc. you will be in good shape. Tired of the excuses guys make about not getting laid. Generally because they are usually losers themselves.
Drugs & divorce. Order does not matter.
Most of the replies here are obviously from people who are not only not married, but have never been in a stable relationship before. Pretty amusing.
You see Ozy, the redpill/incel crowd on here may be down on their luck now but man will they be killing it with the ladies at 35! Leo did it, so why can't they?
I know a fair # of people in their early to mid 30s of both genders who haven't settled down and men seem to get less picky as they age, while the reverse is true for women.
They think they have all the options in the world... and while they still have more than women, it's not as much as they think. Quite a few have a freak out in their early to mid 30s and rush to get married and start a family to tick it off the list. Most men like that I've seen don't know what they want other than a good looking younger woman with a pleasant personality and willingness to birth and rear the kids.
As someone who dated a 34 yo (by accident - markets job; he looked a lot younger though he was on the cusp of aging) when I was 24/25, if it works out it's going to be for superficial reasons, since we were in completely different places in life at that time.
Also I don't think most men here genuinely love their wives, most just think go for some physical attraction and having someone to comfort / listen to them after a hard day at work. This observation is also based on the sheer number of married thirsty perverts I've come across in finance. Eventually, whatever reasons men use to justify this sort of relationship will fade in their 40s to 50s.
Women OTOH get pickier as we get older. There's a lot more social conditioning and pressure on us that men have no clue about, and it takes decades to unpick. But when we're younger, we put up with more shit and a relationship "works" - until it doesn't, decades later.
Going to get quite a lot of MS thrown, but most men are pretty shit to their wives across all social classes. When these wives get older and / or if they managed to maintain a career past all the child bearing and child rearing, and they're financially secure, then... what's in it for them to put up with a husband whom they don't feel is a real life partner? Nothing.
On that financial security point - all the women I know (late 20s to mid 30s) in finance / law are NOT in a rush to have kids while their similar age husbands can't wait to start a family. Many times the wife is literally promising the husband that, if they are in a good enough place career wise / financially (early retirement style), she'd have a kid around 35/ 36 yo, and the dude is so disappointed to wait till then. This is even for cases where the husband is at least a VP now and more than happy for her to be a SAHM with hired help.
"Women OTOH get pickier as we get older. There's a lot more social conditioning and pressure on us that men have no clue about, and it takes decades to unpick."
Can you elaborate on what social conditioning and pressure you're referring to?
LOL good luck trying to get pregnant at 35/36 years old. These women should be mentally prepared to be childless
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