Currently living in a HCoL city in a pretty high tax country. Comfortable and overall enjoying my time but there's nothing really attaching me here so given the costs will probably start the transfer chat at some point in the next 12 months. Work closely with people in Dubai and Miami so those would be the two most realistic options.
Currently leaning towards Dubai - for 3 to 5 years max - because it feels silly to turn down the option to build wealth tax free for a few years while I'm still young that can then compound for the rest of my career. Main thing holding me back is that it doesn't feel like the kind of place where a young ish person can make amazing memories, meet lifelong friends etc. It just feels like this artificial, cultureless place in the desert where people go to fill their bank accounts before moving back to the real world.
Miami I've never visited but from the outside it looks a lot of fun, great food, great weather (I spent a long time living in a tropical country and have never gotten used to winter cold/darkness) interesting local cultures + food etc, not cheap but much more affordable than NYC etc. Plus I'm a car person and love the idea of living somewhere I can easily own a car and go on road trips etc (Dubai is also a car city but there's nowhere really to drive to).
Anyone care to share their experiences of one or ideally both cities? Think 3-5 years in Dubai would be wasted youth?
Dubai only has 12% Christians and Miami has 68%. I've never been to Dubai, but have been to Miami. I'd rather live in Miami and look for a Christian wifey.
Ah yes. Miami is known for traditional Christian females.
Man’s worried about the wrong kind of Latin
well, you'll be surprised. there are a lot of christian women from Latin America in Miami but they're predominantly dating Latin men usually from their home country, and they usually don't speak much English.
let's go
Found the Candace Owens fan
If you plan on keeping your US citizenship, you’ll still pay federal taxes in Dubai. Miami is as tax-free as Dubai
I'm not a US citizen which is also pushing me towards going to a low/no tax country while I can. It's always been a dream of mine to become a US citizen and given how hard it is to get a visa, I'd probably never leave once I got there.
Not sure why you didn't mention you're not a US Citizen in the original post - but ok good luck.
Actually untrue.
You'll still pay more taxes in Miami.
For US citizens, you would pay less taxes in Dubai as the first ~120k of your earnings are tax exempt. Additionally, you get a break on housing expenses as well (dependent on the city but can be upwards of 50k in higher COL areas).
Non-US citizens would theoretically pay nothing.
In Miami, you pay taxes to the federal government regardless of your citizenship.
So in both cases (US / non-US citizen) there's a significant tax advantage with Dubai.
Interesting, for very high earners, that barely moves the needle. If you make $400k I could understand the appeal
does it apply to investment gains? like, if I just live off of my investments and sell stocks with 120k in gains, while living in Dubai, do I not need to pay taxes to Uncle Sam?
Doesn't Dubai have a 5% income tax now though? Wouldn't that mean that you would pay Dubai tax rather than US taxes but file in both places?
I'm not 100% sure on that, but I'd love it if u could explain why I'm wrong if I am wrong.
There is no personal income tax in Dubai
5% is only for mainland corporates, not personal income or offshore companies where most expats work.
However, there are plans to introduce 5% personal income tax in coming years.
I think it depends a lot on which country you are originally from, is this strictly to save money? Because you can live dirt cheap in dubai with maids, cooks, drives etc. if you really wanted to, just stay away from the bling.
Also would be better if you could post salary ranges you expect or have gotten an offer for
It would be an internal transfer so not looking for a pay bump or anything. Think buy side pay: low ish six figures base, highly variable bonus.
But yeah from a money savings point of view in Dubai I could rent a much nicer apartment for the same amount as I pay in my current city, plus I would no longer be surrendering 40%+ of my income to taxes. I'd be able to save a lot more and my back of the envelope calcs suggest that if I stayed for 3-5 years I could save up enough to be a bit more relaxed about things - not nearly enough to retire or anything, but be more secure if something happened career wise.
To repeat my initial post, my main concern is that Dubai is a fairly boring place beyond the glitz and the creature comforts etc. In Miami I'd be able to save significantly more than I do now (lower CoL and lower taxes) but far less than Dubai - but it looks like a much more fun place.
if you're making $200k and are trying to build savings, then you're probably not in a position to engage in a lot of fun / going out.
I'm in a similar position. I'm making a bit more than $200k and I'm trying to build savings, so that money works on me instead of me working for money. so I can enjoy life instead of spending it on mindless calls and useless powerpoint slides / excel models. and I don't understand how people can enjoy going out and spending $200 on a dinner, knowing that it cost them half a day of work, or dropping $1k for a Friday night out, for which they spent several days of their life working. I can totally enjoy nice dinners and fun nights out if my investments are paying for them, instead of me spending my life to pay for them.
so, with my income, and in order to build savings, I mainly engage in cheap / free entertainment, like playing video games, watching tv, going to the beach, go to the fitness club, smoking weed. it's a nice life, but it's a frugal life. this way I manage to save like $4k per month, which is not crazy, but still decent. I don't own a car, cause parking + insurance + gas are more expensive than taking Ubers. and I live in an old rusty motel-looking building on the beach in Florida in a small 1bd apartment with my gf and a cat. I don't really go out and don't spend on entertainment / hobbies. if I lived in a nicer place, owned a car, and went out and spent on entertainment and hobbies, I would most likely have nothing to save.
Dubai is getting full of European/Canadian bankers/finance professionals for this reason. Once they're no longer a resident of their home nations, they essentially pay zero tax in the emirates. I think for Americans a certain sum is tax exempt, until you start paying your tax rate, on the marginal amount above the exemption. This info is widely available online, so not going to discuss it further.
As for living in Dubai, I've been there for about 3 months, at the longest, and It's a pretty good place infrastructure wise. Apartments are easy enough to find, food delivery, grocery stores, restaurants, all present in abundance. Whatever firm you work for should be helping you out with the moving logistics, school for kids (which you don't have), and anything else administratively.
But it's not a culturally "western-developed" nation, though far better than the rest of the gulf. You're still defined by your passport, nationality, and ethnicity, or a combination of those, one way or another. I hope you're at least eastern european, b/c anything "worse" than that will mean that you will face some discrimination (South Asian, SE Asian, African,etcc..), and that you work for a reputed firm globally (so not some dingy family office servicing wealthy locals). There's more discrimination at certain nightlife spots, and you have a real need to show off your wealth and status in most stereotypical clubs, lounges, party locations.
My biggest problem with Dubai, is that as a "working expat" (you're not some arab/indian/turkish billionaire family with a wide network of other hyper-wealthy individuals), you don't really meet the most sophisticated people. Bunch of sex workers, airline hostesses, random crypto scammers, fools, and third rate jobs worked by Indians/Pakistanis with no other option. If you're coworkers are great, you luck out, but otherwise slim pickings, especially for dating.
Dubai is designed, ultimately, as a safe haven for the elites of some of the worst countries in the planet. That dubai is different, fancy parties and all, but it gets very old, very quick, and a western professional will not easily enter that scene. It's a good place to "base" yourself out of, and to travel since airline connectivity is that good, but I'm not an actual fan of actually building a life there.
Sounds dystopian, wow.
DELETE
It is dystopian. That's why I describe it. Futuristic but horrid place.
It is dystopian af. Least favorite city I've ever visited. Not the worst because the food scene is great and for at least the nightlife exposure I got while there, I thought it was pretty decent. Definitely not a place to meet women. The sex workers thing is discrete but I did get a sense of its underground existence at one of the expat / tourist hangout spots I went to.
This is some great insight.
Out of curiosity, what are the dingy family offices you described? I have friends who've left well known global firms to work for small family offices in GCC countries that work for royal family / SWF. Seems like a pretty good gig. Are they generally a bad career decision?
If they're royalty, or well connected to the Emirs/Sheiks, or other powerful families, I think your friends are fine. But they're family offices for random egyptian families with assets in the 80-120 mil USD range, and working for that type of family, if they're unsophisticated, is not worth it.
To be fair, this isn't as likely in Dubai, vs Kuwait or Saudi I'm guessing. I'm going of anecdotal experiences I've heard from years past, so maybe things are different now.
The discrimination is very real. But I don't think the people who ask about moving to Dubai on this forum are Indian/south Asian like you. So they they don't need to worry about discrimination, quite the opposite as they'll be treated really well. That said, its awful people in Dubai discriminated against you because of your skin color...
I believe it’s a result of their guest worker arrangement.
Ya if you're white, I don't think anything I said applies.
Plenty of South Asian wealthy love Dubai as well. It's a fantastic place if you don't have to work. If you do though, and you're not from a country that the locals (half of whom are still actually stupid) respect, than you should be ok.
Also the UAE is leagues better than Kuwait/Qatar/and Saudi. The worst examples come from the other gulf nations.
I'm indian who grew up in Dubai, your race and skin colour is the most important thing there.
Hierarchy goes Emirati=>white>other arabs>east asian>sea/indian>=pakistani/Afghanistani
Indians are mostly seen as pakistani and Afghanistani but slightly better because due to sheer population they are in pretty high positions across the country. There are also distinctions between Indians there, With south Indians being treated bottom of the barrel.
You will never face direct racism there however you will constantly be reminded based on how you are treated, don't believe me? Wear a kandura and go to any mall there and see how you're treated.
One thing i will add is that most people there are really nice people regardless of race, You will always be helped except few western snobs(rarely).
Also no matter how rich you are you'll feel poor when you see buggatis parked on random streets.
It's good for white people/ rich south asians if I'm being honest.
Thanks for the insights, SB'd. Confirmed a lot of the things I've heard, especially regarding the conveniences of the place. Fwiw I spent several years living in a similarly convenient city state and do miss those things.
Work would help with relocation + all the administrative stuff so no worries there.
Your point about not meeting interesting people is exactly what I'm concerned about though. Just kinda feels like I'll be taking a break from life for a few years while saving up money. Makes me wonder if just going to Miami and living in the real world, having fun etc is the way to go.
in terms of dating, do local girls date non-muslim expats? is there at all a hook-up culture? or is it a typical muslim culture with sex only in a relationship?
also how come Dubai is famous for sex work if it's illegal there and it's a muslim country?
get your mind off that lol. local girls wouldnt even interact with an expat. the uae is open but its not the us. the girls brothers would 100% gut you. to answer your 2nd question: its muslim majority but its not like their laws are religion-based. its a bit like singapore, without getting into the theory vs practice of law enforcement.
Local girls usually don't, Although if you're white chad anything is possible. Honestly you'd never get a chance to interact with local girls lol, Although i have seen 1 or 2 cases of t marrying muslims from other countries.
Tbh your best chance is to go to some super high end rooftop bars where you'll see these women in burkhas drink 250$ shots
Hookup culture: it's kinda meh, it does exist and you could bang a new girl everyday, It's really complicated though.if you want I'll explain it in detail but only if you're actually interested.
Hookers: It is only a muslim country by name, But so are almost all countries in the world, pretty much no country hardline follows religion except for places like Afghanistan or iraq. People aren't really too obsessed with religion, Especially middle class+people. It's all in the open, go to any 5 star hotel and you'll see 10/10 blonde bombshells there, they'll usually approach you and after 30 minutes of talking drop their rates. You can find top tier women of any race asian/south asian/white(mostly eastern european)/latina hookers etc.
It's one of the biggest sex tourism spots in the world because the hookers charge 5-6x what they'd get in their home country.
You can go to the beach and find tons of girls in bikinis, even in public places plenty of women wear *revealing clothing* as i said it really isn't too muslim, To be clear if you are a religious muslim it's still a great country to be in, You can follow your relegion as you'd like.
It's also a hub for rich men and all that comes along with it, sugarbabies, yacht parties, hard drugs etc.
The royalty of the country themselves indulge in such acts Tbh.
as a person who lived in Dubai =- I agree on this "Social Life aspect/dating"
My biggest problem with Dubai, is that as a "working expat" (you're not some arab/indian/turkish billionaire family with a wide network of other hyper-wealthy individuals), you don't really meet the most sophisticated people. Bunch of sex workers, airline hostesses, random crypto scammers, fools, and third rate jobs worked by Indians/Pakistanis with no other option. If you're coworkers are great, you luck out, but otherwise slim pickings, especially for dating.
Dubai is designed, ultimately, as a safe haven for the elites of some of the worst countries in the planet. That dubai is different, fancy parties and all, but it gets very old, very quick, and a western professional will not easily enter that scene. It's a good place to "base" yourself out of, and to travel since airline connectivity is that good, but I'm not an actual fan of actually building a life there
A few things missing in all of the comments here (many posts with great points btw).
I’ve lived abroad for most of my career. And can tell you this. Dubai will be tough to leave once you are there for more than a certain period of time and want to change jobs. You’ll be known as a Dubai/GCC person. So if you make that move be sure to make it clear to mothership that this is something temporary. You’ll have to work doubly hard when moving back and trying to change roles.
A few other things. The people you meet there could be cool and adventurous etc since many have made a decision to go abroad. That’s a big deal. The downside is that people come and go a lot. You can make lifelong friends as I have but be ready to keep making friends. It takes time and effort.
no one here has mentioned the sheer access of travel and seeing other cultures eating delicious food and being surrounded by different people. You are literally a quick flight away from North Africa, parts of Europe, South Asia and the ‘Stans. So much to see do and explore over a long (or regular) weekend. That (for me) itself has a big appeal. It may not for you YMMV.
Miami is a cool city and I’ve been but it just doesn’t appeal to me in a lot of ways.
you probably can’t go wrong but just a heads up that the best still sit in big places like NYC/LON/SFO
good luck.
Appreciate the insights, exactly what I'm looking for.
Re being labelled a Dubai person and struggling to recruit elsewhere, other people have made this point to me as well. But I don't know if it really applies in my position: I'm at a global hedge fund, a decent chunk of my team are in Dubai (and I know other T1 shops with decent sized teams there doing what I do), and it would be an internal transfer. As far as my colleagues are concerned I don't think they'd see me any differently, and unless the worst happens I'd be happy to stay in my current shop until retirement. Not trying to discount what you've said in general, I just can't imagine say my NYC PMs thinking less of me or anything for spending 3-5 years there.
Re the best still sitting in NYC/LON/SFO: do you think that'll continue to be the case over the medium-long term? I'm in London now and it seems like a LOT of people are talking about making the move to either Dubai or Singapore for similar reasons that I gave above: the upper middle class is just getting more and more squeezed (the latest gripe I've heard at sellside dinners has been adding VAT to school fees) and the CoL is stupid - I can't imagine raising a family here.
Are you at a multi manager out of curiosity? I think they are the busiest with building out teams there.
I would strongly think about the assumptions you are making here. As a 1-3 year trade that probably holds just fine. You probably know better than I do how quickly things move. A few bad months/years or some shift in investor sentiment and maybe there are redemptions and "non-core" offices get shut down, people shift and/or are let go. Money in hedge funds can move very fast from LPs and they often move all at once. Funds/desks/satellite offices that are far from the power of real management are often the first to go.
Let's just say that happens. Maybe some of your colleagues survive or a bunch shift back, maybe you survive. But maybe you don't. Something happens at the firm or in your personal life or something politically within the firm/team etc.. And everyone is shuffling around trying to find a job. Guess where the power (ie management) sits? Where do recruiters sit? Where to the big LPs (in number) sit? Where do service providers (ie brokers and others) sit? Not in Dubai... and so your not being there and having to move back is another variable for them to assess and think "does he really want to come back? is his network still here?" The answers could be yes, but if they have any doubt, they move onto the next person.
Additionally, it is very rare that people stay at one shop/desk until retirement unless you have some number in your head and when you hit it you leave (and you are well on the way there).
Finally - people have always talked about leaving NYC/London for Asia at least. Often nicer weather, lower taxes, lower crime etc. But in my career and in the past having seen peoples resumes (LPs see a lot of those) and having talked to bosses and their counterparts (ie. dinosaurs), rarely has it happened in the long term.
It's always been a stint. These places are far from families/friends etc. They are nowhere near as dynamic or global on a cultural/social basis and just don't have that heritage or populace or governments that care. Cost of living is not cheap. Sure you pay less to zero tax, but its not like housing is cheap, or getting around or getting back home. Schools? Expensive. This is not to put down these places by any means, they are great in a number of ways and plenty of people settle there (I almost settled in Asia, and maybe I will one day if someone makes me some absurd offer). But most that do stay become specialists and sort of penned in. That's ok too.
I'm writing a lot about this because this has not only been my experience, but its been that of so many others across different areas of finance.
Once again YMMV but I would just caution against being so incredible confident that you can move at will. You may be able to but it will be an exception rather than the rule. But you sound like a young, smart, single dude and I strongly encourage anyone with even a shred of adventure in their blood to go for it. It makes life that much richer. But the cost can be some career flex when thinking about moving back.
I hope that this helps. You probably can't go wrong.
Good Luck
San Francisco is a big place?
This website sometimes sweats a very US-centric and student heavy feel. There’s a comment about Christian women above? Not sure people on this forum are real human beings sometimes 😂
Go for Dubai. 3-5 years as a single guy in your 30s is a perfect time to make a change like that. You won’t regret going for it - your future self will thank you for the experience. You’ll have fun, learn a ton and interact with a more global, relaxed and interesting subset of people I’d wager than all the star spangling awesome Christian women in Miami…who and which will still always be there for you in 5 years time.
Agreed, strongly leaning towards Dubai at this point, just seems like the smart decision financially. Plus life experience wise; if I plan/hope to spend the rest of my life in the US, I might as well see as many places as I can before then. The only thing that's holding me back is the idea of going on epic road trips in the back o' beyond of Florida, but like you say that'll still be there in 3-5 years time.
The idea that road trips in backwoods redneck ass Florida are holding you back from living somewhere where you can take 6-7 hour direct flights to Europe is wild to me.
Bruh don't do Dubai. You're going to be wasting 3-5yrs of your life that you could be having here in the US making actual lifelong friends and finding a LT partner (if you want to get married of course). If you're not 'connected', then your exp in Dubai won't be anything interesting (vs. if you were in London, you could still have an awesome time with a varied crowd)
I think you had posted some time about how growing up sucks (which btw I totally get) -- I'm telling you, this is a decision I think you'll regret in the LT. Going to Singapore / London is NOT the same as going to Dubai, you'll miss out on many core things that are key to a good life in those places as an unconnected expat
Dubai is disgusting. If you pick a place to live purely based taxes, you are thinking way way too short term. Your ability to grow a real network and yourself in a professional capacity is exponentially better in the United States.
Fwiw, in my field Dubai is much more of a hub than Miami. Although you're not the first person to say that the network you'll find there is limited.
you're not talking about the main factor - income. income tax is important, but will you be able to get the same income in Dubai as in Miami? and what size of income are we talking about? if it's like $100k, then maybe taxes are not even that important. if it's $1M+, then yeah definitely go to Dubai and save yourself $300k per year on taxes. people work their while life to save $300k, so if you can save it on taxes each year, it's totally worth it.
in terms of lifestyle, I can speak about Miami. Miami is a very beautiful place, but there are some caveats:
1. the weather is not completely ideal, because there is a hurricane season from Jun till Nov, so it's basically raining for half a year. and the rain comes from nowhere in the middle of the sunny day and pours like crazy for a few hours every couple of days for half a year. the rest half a year is perfect weather though.
2. going out is expensive. it's a touristy city, where people come for a week to splash their savings that they've made during the year, so entertainment is priced accordingly. taking a girl out for drinks will be $100. breakfast for two is like $60. a lot of places have 20% tip automatically included as a way to deal with international tourists who don't tip much. and on top of that they'll still offer you to tip if you want, but that's not required, however if the server went above and beyond they may be upset if you select 0% (which is on top of 20%) when paying.
3. a lot of gorgeous girls here, but they're expensive. girls here get spoiled by guys who come to Miami for a few weeks and are splashing their annual savings, so they expect expensive entertainment. there are also local rich guys who either live there or semi-live there for Dec-May period who spoil them. and there are plenty of girls who are in Miami specifically to find a rich husband/bf / sugar daddy. if you're trying to save money and build wealth, you may be unable to date here, cause as I mentioned even simple drinks are $100. and some of the good looking girls are not even entertaining drinks and dinners offers and expect something more unique. so, if you have a girlfriend, it probably makes sense to bring her with you if you're trying to save money.
4. rent is not cheap. nice 1bd is $3k. $2-2.5k will get you a scrappy 1bd. it's not bad. but there are places with cheaper rent, like Chicago where you can get a 1bd for $1.5-2k, but IL has a 5% state income tax. so if you're making $200k+, then Miami tax savings are worth it. if less, then Chicago will be cheaper. but Chicago doesn't have an ocean and the climate is worse.
to sum up, you can enjoy life and build savings in Miami if you bring your gf who doesn't mind paying for herself or living frugally, or if you don't mind being single and not dating. you can enjoy beautiful beach and ocean for free. if you don't mind living in an old motel-looking building with rusty gates near the beach, you can find a place for $2k. however, if you want to enjoy single life and go out and date and live in a nice looking place in a nice location, then you'll be easily spending like $150-200k. so depending on your income, it may be challenging to save and build wealth.
for Dubai, I've only been there as a tourist, so I'm not gonna speculate on how it feels to live there, but I'm pretty sure it's a developed place that is worth it if you're making a lot of money ($500k+) and want to save on taxes as a non-US citizen. for a US citizen, it wouldn't be worth it, cause Uncle Sam wants his share no matter where you are.
Great to hear from someone who knows Miami.
My base is about $200k in USD and my bonus is...I have no idea. I'd expect that again in an OK year, maybe nothing in a bad year and a lot more in a good year. Buyside pay is unpredictable but I'm sure the savings on tax would be material in Dubai especially over a 5 year horizon and with PA trading on top.
Under no illusions that either city is cheap, although looking at rent both are materially cheaper than where I am now, where a decent two bedroom easily sets you back about $3.5-4k equivalent if you want to live somewhat central. Going out is probably comparable and taxes would be about 12pp lower assuming a 100% bonus.
So I'd almost certainly save money in either city, although Dubai would be considerably more.
It's interesting that you and other people have commented on the girls and the general fakeness of relationships in Miami, need to flaunt your wealth etc because that's a very common criticism of Dubai culture as well. In some ways the cities are surprisingly alike, maybe it's the sun.
yep, there are quite a few similarities between them it seems.
then Dubai makes more sense imo because tax savings difference will be significant.
Any US citizens in Dubai trying to avoid income tax, PM me. Know some structures/strategies but works better if you own a business rather than W-2, unless you can convince your employer to pay you as a consultant.
Sounds like he's a fellow Toronto resident!
how about western Florida
Tampa is fine and all but I'm not sure how you think it compares to Dubai or Miami...
Dubai is a tier 2 financial capital of the world. Most of the serious financial capitals whose funds affect world finances are in NYC, London, Zurich, et cetera.
When is the last time a Dubai based Hedge fund raided a country's sovereign finances ?
When is the last time a Dubai based Private Equity fund did a $20 billion merger/acquisition?
When is the last time a Dubai based company played checkers with the worlds industries ?
Sure the Bugattis and buildings are cool but it's just a middle of nowhere sand pit that has shiny buildings.
When you go to Italy or New York you can say ok this place has hundreds of years of culture, history, blah blah.
It's nothing but a racist Las Vegas of Emirates. And I have never met any remarkable Arabs as crude as this sounds. They crave European validation but lack substance themselves as people. Most of them are lazy, lacking in intellectualism, and just seem very shallow and basic.
Anyone who has seen Japan, Korea, Singapore, Silicon Valley, Germany, Swiss Finance Industry wouldn't care for Dubai.
I myself know millionaires that only go there to let their hair down. Then they retreat to their real base in other nations where their real hustle is.
And if Dubai is so great why did the Shiekh Maktoums daughter Laila herself flee ? Didn't she try to go to a non-extradition treaty country ?
The Dubai loving crowd usually themselves are equally shallow scheming from unsophisticated nations or tribes. I don't think Kim Chang Soo in Samsung or Hans Lemann in Munich would care about these places a hoot.
Agreed with pretty much everything you said, and Gulf Arabs in large, are basically irrelevant culturally, their money tossing is just there to try and influence that perception, but it's never going to work.
But it does seem that the rulers of Abu Dhabi are engaged in all sorts of M&A, Asset sheltering, and so on. Then again, they're just buying previously build companies, and don't have the capacity to create their own, whatsoever. Just a massive Asset Manager with a flag on its physical real estate, and a seat in the UN for said asset.
Singapore is probably the only true financial capital within the non-European world along with Hong Kong.
But the fate of Hong Kong is ????? as I think the Chinese invasion affected it/has affected it/will affect it.
Don't know much but I have been to:
Singapore and Hong Kong and I found the locals 100000x smarter than Dubai crowd.
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