Is Australia Doomed?
This morning, China's "Wolf Warrior in Chief" Zhao Lijian tweeted a cartoon depicting an Australian soldier slitting the throat of an Afghan kid, condemning Australian soldiers' war crimes in Afghanistan where they killed innocent civilians including children and women.
This tweeted sparked an outrage in Australia, causing the Australian PM Scott Morrison to come out and demand an apology from China. Of course, China shrugged off this demand from the Australian regime.
The big picture here is, China and Australia's relationship has been deteriorating over the past couple years due to various political reasons, and it peaked this year when the US-led Five Eye Alliance pressed China on the alleged coronavirus cover-up.
China very smartly picked on Australia alone, slapping tariffs on tens of billions of dollars of Australian goods including wine, corn, wheat, lobster, etc. China accounts for over 1/3 of Australia's exports, and Australia has an annual trade surplus of over $50 billion with China. Losing China will be a big hit to the kangaroos, while China has plenty of substitutes for Australia, one of which is obviously the United States. If China starts buying more wine and corn from our farmers, it's definitely good news for America's economy recovery.
With the Biden Administration coming into power soon, China will look to improve the relationship with the US, and buying more products from us is definitely a good start.
The question is, how will the US respond? If Trump was still in power, he would undoubtedly take the RMB. But with Biden, will he side with our long-term ally Australia, or the money we so desperately need?
Biden is China’s literal puppet.
I'm under the impression that there is bipartisan support in confronting china economically through trade and perhaps militarily if need be. The CHIPS for America act was introduced by a republican and even Schumer has voiced support for stronger action towards China. Dem senator Coons also acknowledged that China thinks America is in decline and wants bipartisan support to outcompete htem. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-coons-idUSKBN2802DB
Is this all for show? I don't think the American political elite are that naive or shortsighted on either side of the aisle.
Incidentally, this is what China wants you to believe so there won't be any major hits against China while idiots are busy arguing over who's "stronger" against China.
Spend less time propagandizing and more time thinking and acting. Propagandas are how the influential few manipulates the gullible mass (Like in every single historical event ever).
People pretty lazily claim that Trump took a hard line against china as if it were his idea. Obama's second term initiated the "pivot to asia" strategy which broke with years of middle east focus. Pressure was applied via military alignment and multilateral policy. Trump went bilateral and kept the same/elevated the military alignment. If anyone thinks China will not be an area of focus for the new admin, they are a moron.
My relatively uninformed opinion is that Biden will reengage multilaterally and seek to deepen ties with allies. In this specific case, Biden is less likely to be cowed by China because his constituents aren't affected by farming/the farm bureau in the same way as trump's. In either case, specific purchase orders are political footballs, and are not key to any economic recovery. The obvious long term movement is toward two spheres of influence.
Agreed.
At least this is Biden's rhetoric - "To reengage multilaterally to get China to play by the rules it has been ignoring". I think he means what he says, but Idk if Biden admin will have the strategic prowess the way lots of Cold War era administrations had. Obama admin came close, but their objectives were ill-defined to begin with so strategic prowess was moot.
Most people don't have the mental capacity to understand geopolitics, like the kid above. The fact that Trump played the Beijing Joe card somewhat effectively speaks to how easily the population can be manipulated. The TPP was specifically created to corner China, but our "America Alone" president backed out of it. Now China is leading the RCEP, the largest trading bloc in the world.
For the Aussies, quite honestly they deserve what's coming. If you are more outraged about a cartoon than actuall war crimes, you have an issue.
And yes, the Aussies are doomed.
RCEP is things that were already in practice having a label slapped onto it.
While I do agree withdrawing from TPP was a mistake, China hasn't in any substance, replaced the US.
I thought it was common sense to not bite the hand that feeds you. Rip straya, Morrison and Murdoch really put the nail in the coffin.
Username check out...for those of you who know what it means...
Obvious CCP shill
Well said. I always thought Trump's "anti-China" stance was just a show (like 99% of what Trump does is a show with no real objective other than staying in power) because it's not hitting them where it hurts nor does it have any long-term objective (Was the purpose to drop economic bombs at China to scare them away or was it just tantrums? What did it really achieve besides hurting China's short-term economic growth?).
I mean this is just an over-simplification. Aussies being mad at a cartoon is just how an average Aussie Joe responded not how the government responded. From what little of Aussie media I get, I can clearly see there's A LOT of anti-China sentiment at all levels of society. That's why you NEED smart people in charge, because you don't want an average uninformed person's views trickling up to how the government sets its foreign policy agenda.
Hope not. Depends on whether Biden is actually successful at forming a global effort to get China to play by the rules. Hopefully Biden learned a thing or two about crafting careful strategies the way Obama did. On a positive note, while Obama's foreign policy objectives were ill-formed in the first place (so carefully crafting strategies doesn't really matter if your objectives are dumb to begin with), Biden's objective with China seems to reflect on the reality of why Xi's China is a problem.
It is very evident to me that we are entering a cold war phase with China. It is in the U.S. best interest to publicize and strengthen its support of Taiwan now more than ever, as well as building a coalition of military allies in the Indo-Pacific including Australia, Japan, South Korea and India to show China democracy means business.
Democracy means no shit. It's each country's own interest that they care about. It's US best interest to figure out how to solve the healthcare and debt issues before spending another billion on fighter jets.
Imagine thinking our administration would even consider fixing healthcare over subsidizing billion dollar jets for some defacto state the size of Vermont on the other side of the globe in the fucking Pacific. At least Trump kept our troops out of most unnecessary conflicts. I'm expecting Biden to basically carry out Obama's third term and start another chapter of America's forever war at the expense of American citizens.
This is an extremely dangerous thought.
The West and its allies' problem with China currently is (and should remain) an economic one.
China has been flagrantly ignoring international rules and practices predatory colonial capitalism. This is the real issue. China's military squabbles with some SE Asian countries and India should remain there.
If the US or any of the its allies were to get involved militarily, that's a scenario for WW3.
Australia was doomed when they let China start buying all their real estate. (same with Canada and to a lesser extent the USA).
Imagine having to pay some corrupt slumlord in China for the right to live in your own country. Pathetic.
If I'm president first thing I am doing is banning all foreign purchases of US real estate. If you want to buy our land or buildings, get in line and become a legal permanent resident.
...do you really hate the economy that much?
My guy here probably rented from a Chinese landlord who nickled and dimed every blood out of him.
How about you stop being a pussy and rent from a Class A apartment instead of a shit 3 story house that doesn't have AC and cost only $300 a month.
Try and rent a nice condo in Toronto or Vancouver and see who own the building...
Or buy a home there and see what country citizen owns the property.
Would China ever let the usa or Canada buy up all its property to rent back to its citizens at a profit? Why do we let them do it here?
One third of vancouver real estate owned by chinese buyers.....and think how many more are behind a Canadian llc. Toronto is the same.
https://www.fortunebuilders.com/one-third-of-vancouvers-real-estate-mar….
It’s the US and UK who owns the most foreign Australian real estate. Another classic sinophobic, racist remark.
Chinese aggression may lead to Australia joining NATO.
It's this MBA dude again. I call it aggression if you have a military base 8,000 miles from your homeland.
Ha if China could, they would. But they can’t even take Taiwan.
My MBA bro, look at what you did. Freaking dumpster fire down there. I prefer debating with more mature, smarter guys like you lol.
Of course the bankers on here love China. Gotta spread that globalism and New World Order. There's a reason why big corporations and elites are pushing for "The Great Reset".
What? You're a second year analyst in IB, what do you mean "you bankers"?
China is a great topic right now because it reveals the closet racist. The fact of the matter is western countries are threatened by a non-white country taking economic dominance and are acting out with cognitive dissonance; but really, this is a simple return to economic normostasis over the past two millenia - check GDP outputs and charts that reflect this. News flash; China was already the largest economy when adjusted for PPP in 2014, and in 1-2 decades will be twice as large as the US and EU combined. Irrational players that treat religion and politics as a cult are experiencing cognitive dissonance, but the level headed are not. The amount of hypocrisy is astounding, and yes, the Australian PM showing more outrage to a tweet exposing the war crimes of Australia, than the actual war crimes itself is one example of this. For the record: Taiwan (the Republic of China) and China (People’s Republic of China) lays claims to exactly the same lands: Taiwan, Beijing, the mainland, etc... it’s one country and the ignorant about the history and context need to keep quiet about it.
No we just hate China because their government is committing ethnocide, they rule their people with an iron fist (no free speech, no democratically elected leaders,can't criticize the government), and general horrific human rights abuses record that far outpace any civilized western nation. Isn't a racial thing.
These statements are all factually incorrect. It’s called western propaganda, and I can tell you’ve been infected with it. China has 55 ethnic minorities, its people have tremendous personal freedoms, and 90% are happy with the Chinese government. +100million Chinese travel the world each year, and amazingly, +100million Chinese tourists return to China each year. You’ve obviously never been to China and your racist attitudes are obvious, ‘civilised’ westerner. I know it’s a bitter pill for racists to swallow but China is at the cutting edge of innovation and development in many industries, the government cares for its people and no amount of finger pointing hypocrisy will change that, poodle.
Do you hate Australia for the war crimes they committed in Afghanistan? Amazing how you diverted the topic away from what actually happened in Afghanistan and came up with the usual talking points about the "Communists!". Tells you how deranged some Americans are and how removed from reality you are.
Well, well, well https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-likely-in-u-s-in-mid-december-2019-cdc-scientists-report-11606782449
If Roc and proc lay claim to call of China, roc is correct. They should still be the Chinese Olympic team and China in the UN
They're the size of Vermont and don't control a single piece of territory with historical value, what are you talking about mate?
*The CCP has entered the chat
> someone disagrees with me
they must be paid bots!
Frankly, I don't care if China becomes a world super power. Give them the pacific rim, give them the south china sea, let the chinese unleash on the Taiwanese. No matter what China does, it will never be the west, and its culture will always be toxic so long as it remains governed in a way that creates a hive mind. The cardinal virtues are western ideals propagated forth by the Greeks 2500 years ago. The Romans, the Europeans, and then the Americans have all taken western ideals and flourished, whereas China has virtually destroyed its past and now is some dystopian nightmare. Australia will pay in terms of culture and social cohesion if they do not do what is right for the people; what's more, the economic catastrophe that is Vancouver will descend and proliferate on Sydney and Melbourne - good luck Aussies.
China is the longest running civilisation and culture in the world and invented much of what the world uses today. They have not destroyed their past, neither do they give a flying fuck about trying to change others. The Chinese translation is Middle Kingdom which stipulates their views on culture and economic standing in the world. Oh, and “the cardinal virtues are western ideals” -> keep feeling threatened, racist. Your time has come and passed. With respect to Australia: the only people that have claims on Australia being rightfully theirs are the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. Any other ethnicity is secondary. Again, your saltiness Australia is less populated by white people is clear; truth is the Chinese have long been involved and migrants of Australia.
Holy were you paid 50 cents for this post? "kEeP fEeLiNg ThReAtEnEd, RaCisT" 1) your cope is palpable 2) I do not care if you call me racist. Have you ever heard of a little event called the cultural revolution? "They have not destroyed their past." Sure, except for in every way possible. The entire purpose of the red guard was to destroy the four olds! Did you know that Chinese scholars often travel to japan and korea to witness preserved chinese artifacts and artwork from the pre-Mao era since so much of it was destroyed! Longest running civilization? What does that mean. China 3000 years ago is not the China of today, there were countless unifications and civil wars in that time. Africa and Mesopotamia are the oldest geographical regions that gave birth to life, just to be clear. Doesn't look like China doesn't care about other countries with all the confucian institutes popping up around the west! "Your time has come and passed," so you think western values will die out just because china has made itself wealthy by acting out mercantilist policies? can you explain to me why so many of the CCP members send their children to America, like Xi's daughter at Harvard? Sad. As for Australia, if British colonists are secondary, then the Chinese are tertiary and should be treated as such. For what it's worth, at least the British made good come out of Australia, China couldn't even modernize itself without American help starting in the 1980's. Nonetheless, 50 cents is 50 cents.
Responded above.
Gotta love the China shrills showing up in force!
I think Australia will do fine in the long term, yes exports are being hit but population growth and immigration will remain resilient and a friendly business environment and robust democracy (apart from energy policy of late) puts it on good stead.
To comment about China - yes historically China was a leading centre of culture, innovation and learning. There is also a lot of deep cultural past. You would be an idiot to think otherwise. But you would also be a fool to ignore why so many countries around the world are concerned about the actions of an administration that cannot be held accountable either to international standards, its own media or to its own citizenry.
It is undeniable there has been a 'great leap forward'. However this has been built on massive population growth and public debt. This will create big headwinds over the coming decades as stalling population growth and an aging population collide with a largely government-led debt funded construction and infrastructure boom. There have been massive changes over the last decades in China, but I think we are seeing just the beginning.
I'm unsurprised at the ignorance and lack of understanding Americans have about China; this ignorance is what drove the downfall of the previous Chinese empire in the 19th century and it is happening with America today. History rhymes.
Fact is over 90% of Chinese citizens are satisfied or highly satisfied with the Chinese government; Harvard surveyed below. With respect to your comment on international standards: false. The international community has remained on balance neutral, some supporting and some against. The "international community" which you speak of is largely attributed to the five eyes colonialist countries, but that is far from the international community. If anything, deals such as the world's largest trade deal (the RCEP) and the Belt and Road Initiative have indicated support, or in the least, neutrality.
Harvard: "95.5 percent of (Chinese citizens) respondents were either “relatively satisfied” or “highly satisfied” with Beijing. In contrast to these findings, Gallup reported in January of this year that their latest polling on U.S. citizen satisfaction with the American federal government revealed only 38 percent of respondents were satisfied with the federal government." https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/
I'm not American.
I'm not sure how much weight you can put in surveys about citizen satisfaction when it is illegal to speak against the government. If we were having this conversation in a public place in China, high chance I would go to prison. And by nature democracy means people are going to be unsatisfied. And comfortable voicing their opinions on the matter.
Yes other nations are engaging with China economically, as they should. What I mean by flouting the internation standards are things like the South China Sea stance. Or to bring it back to Australia, slapping high tariffs on Australian products for no reason.
Completely agree that America is overreaching in many areas and it will be difficult for them to arrest the slide of the nation in the 21st century. I personally think low education standards are a root of many issues you see coming to the fore today.
JESUS F'ING CHRIST, calm your ass down my fellow Chinese and fellow Americans.
Chinese, stop playing the race card. It's not race that made some of the buthurt Americans here hate China. Russia is white and they hate them equally. Guilty is the propaganda by the Western media to fear monger on China.
Americans, stop calling those who defend China shills or 50 cents. Chinese people do like their government and they hate lies from the West, which is why they feel the need to speak out.
I do like a civil debate on China vs. the West, but labeling people as racist or dog eaters are elementary. GO JACK YOUR QUICK ASS OFF instead of ruining the debate.
It stopped being about the Chinese government when Morrison and Murdoch got more mad over a cartoon than their country's own war crimes. And just months before the west was freaking out about people getting mad at them for depicting Mohammed.
LOL that retard Stern Trader fuckhead made me look bad for saying people are not racist. Mind-boggling that someone pursuing one of the most intellectually challenging careers in the country (might be an overstatement lol) is that close-minded and easily triggered.
It seems like a lot of people in this thread are trying hard to increase their CCP social credit score.
China was in absolute poverty last century. Most of their people were still dancing around campfires singing ooga booga until America and the west saved them with globalization.
You're missing a large chunk of history. 1800 of the past 2000 years, China accounted for ~30-35% of world GDP output. Why did it fall so far in the mid 19th-20th centuries before recently recovering? It's called the Opium wars waged by Britain that brought the Chinese economy to its knees. Some of the first American railways and Ivy League universities were financed by this drug money. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/2000-years-economic-history-one-chart/
Of course, when GDP was largely tied to your population, and gdp per capita was largely tied to food production, China would have the largest economy since it had the most people. America didnt even exist until the 1600's and was not a country until almost 1800. The opium wars sounds like an excuse for a lack of keeping up with the west's technological advance. The real question is how did America, a country with ~400 years of history, and 1/4th the population, manage to outpace China so quickly? Also, you say the opium wars were britain's fault, but the chinese accepted the terms of the deal; what's more, America was china liberator in world war 2, not the oppressor as many chinese make it out to seem like. Do not forget that America is what allowed China to rise in 1980 and then once again in 2001, china got no where alone.
My god, the amount of China shills in here. How much are you getting paid per post? You're not tricking any of us lol
just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they're a paid shill, relax dude
Hilarious that there is more interest in talking about what China did than actual confirmed war crimes committed by Australia in Afghanistan. Maybe because that reflects badly on one of Australia's close allies in Afghanistan as well?
Who are the shills now.
Associate 3, I provided an actual response from the POV of Australian businessmen/women, in response to an earlier post. The Australian business community is generally unhappy with the Australian national government and mainstream media’s poor, insensitive relationship with China. State government level slightly different: very open to mending ties with China. Australian business leaders are concerned about the situation, understand Australia’s prosperity relies on China and the situation is concerning but hopeful of resolution. Unfortunately, a fair share of the general population are being led to the slaughter by mainstream media.
People on this forum seemingly can’t take someone else having a different view to their’s and resort to name calling. One could call it information asymmetry; the way I see it their views appear uninformed and infantile.
"Australian business leaders are concerned about the situation, understand Australia's prosperity relies on China and the situation is concerning but hopeful of resolution."
this is where you are complete wrong. Money is not everything to the Australians like it is to the chinese. Australia has existed for decades before china, and even if it takes the 6% hit to gdp, so what.
Why does everything have to be about politics? we should talk more about how to talk to that cute recruiter that made eye contact with some dude once during an interview
1) The fact that the Chinese in the thread show preference for Biden and against Trump is probably all you need to know.
2) I'm sure that ''diversity, equity and inclusion'' which is the new mantra of the liberal elite, will save Australia. After all, everyone knows that those are the key ingredients for any successful society, though nobody had ever heard about them until a few years ago.
Truth be told, the Anglo-Saxon world accelerated its decline and it's about time one of them takes the pounding of the life time, so that we can finally dispel a number of myths. May this help awaken the rest.
"Managed decline." Totally agree, France is getting destroyed, Macron is talking about how to stop a muslim separatist movement. They deserve all of it (the french and EU elite) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54383173
How many beheadings and terror attacks will it take? lets find out !
LOL I highly suspect you two are the same person.
If it wasn't for the USA, Japan would have taken over China after WW2.
China is only where it is today because of the west. China relies heavily on IP theft. Hence if the west stopped innovating then China will also stop innovating because they have no original ideas.
Communism destroys creativity which is why if you speak to a Chinese international student, you will realize they lack emotional intelligence and personality despite their strong academic credentials. Seriously, if you speak to one of them, you'll notice it's like speaking to a robot.
Don't tell me you're another undergrad or 20 year old kid like @SternEStrader. You kids trolling are best advised to quit the racist, divisive and factually incorrect comments.
On Chinese international students: I have international Chinese friends. There is definitely a difference in cultural approach, but they speak like 'robots' to you because they're speaking their second/third/sometimes fourth language, dumbass. This is one example why the Chinese are doing so well, because most speak multiple languages whilst westerners are struggling to coherently speak one.
One thing you were too young to understand and since we're playing tit-for-tat: the Chinese literally saved the US, Australia and the rest of the world from total collapse in the 2008 GFC. They didn't need to. But they did.
Innovation wise, the Chinese are literally racing ahead with 5G, high speed rail, viral apps like TikTok, AI, fintech, etc. One visit to a tier 1 Chinese city versus an American city and it is clear where the rapid development and innovation is. It ain't downtown, homeless LA or San Francisco; think Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen.
Kiddos, learn to put on your pants before stepping outside. I makes the monies more than you all, in a single day, then you probably do in a single month/year. Yes, I'm taking a huge dump on y'all because this is a finance forum where money talks and the racism and ignorance in this thread is reaching high levels of hilarity.
***********
NO. If you have any understanding of world history, you'll realize that Japan trying to take over China was a suicide move that led to its decline.
No powers greater than Japan ever attempted to take over China because they knew it'd be impossible. Too vast of a land and too unified its people. You take Beijing, and all of a sudden you get handful number of regional military leaders each with millions of fighting men. You literally have to fight multiple all-out wars at once and win all of them to take over China. You can't even do it sequentially because by the time you win over one military leader, all the other ones are now as strong as you are.
Different story from India, where there were small pockets of regional powers with no unified sense of being Indian (they were Mughuls, Tenglis, Bengalis, Kashmiris, etc...). You just have to topple each kingdom and you can do it sequentially because these "Indians" had no unified sense of being "Indians".
This is precisely why the Europeans decided to sign unfair trade deals and take ports instead of colonizing China.
Not true. You are vastly underestimating China. This is an oversimplification (and frankly wrong) characterization of China. They steal a lot but China is still perhaps one of the most innovative places after the US. The Chinese have been perfecting this highly entrepreneurial and innovative environment for decades. (This is precisely how big time investors like Dalio and Rubenstein describe China. And why American businesspeople should be worried about China). If what you were saying was true, the "China problem" wouldn't be that big of a deal.
How many Chinese people have you spoken to? Perhaps you're confusing a generic Asian student with a Chinese student?
The comment on "Communism destroys creativity" is also irrelevant here because China is in no ways a "Communist" state. It's what you call an Authoritarian Capitalist state. This is literally how all "communist" states developed their economy, by no longer being "Communist". They just keep the name for political purposes.
I think this is a good thread to reveal I recently purchased a new phone from a Chinese brand. I strictly excluded Apple and Google because of their woke culture, I considered Samsung but couldn't find the right opportunity.
Ciao my friend.
Still better than the baizuo.
All you China hating hardos, next time you are in Shanghai, hit me up, I'll buy you drinks.
You have my word. Peace.
Lol all the ignorant anti China posts are infuriating yet hilarious. Many in this forum shat on me in March for saying China has handled covid much better than the west, and here we are...
I lost faith in having a civilized debate in this forum because the issue at hand (re-rise of China) touches the deep-routed pride and sometimes livelihood of westerners, so it's normal for people to just argue what they want to believe in and ignore the facts.
Anyway, we all realize the the discussions in this forum have 0 impact on international power dynamics nor the minds of posters. So lets just watch how things unfold.
To the guys living in China in this thread: I'm moving to Shanghai next year, will send u guys DMs closer to then :)
Damn this message board is sadly racist as fuck. All you need to do is mention something like China, BLM, or Muslims in Europe, and watch all the racist cockroaches skitter around the fireworks.
If you think this is bad you should take a look on reddit. Reading through some subs on there would make you question if humanity was a mistake.
My mistake to hold a professional message board to a different standard than reddit which is comprised chiefly of literal children
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