Legacy media's influence will be virtually dead within a decade (news + celebrities)
Good article prompting the discussion -- https://www.wsj.com/business/media/new-media-soci…
Why a decade? Chart below says it all:
Not speaking here of a trend that isn't appreciated, but the recent election provides a further staging point on legacy media's waning influence on how people think. We not only saw that MSM had very modest impact in how people thought, but celebrity endorsements of Harris had virtually no impact. Neither did endorsements of prior presidents.
The new kings are X, podcasts (ex. Rogan), and short-form video (TikTok, Reels, etc). Which are all formats that are much harder to control the narrative on. Power is shifting from elites in ivory towers to the people (in this one specific dimension). What are your thoughts on it all?
No doubt. Couple takeaways:
1. This is a big net negative for liberals and a big pos for conservatives given >95% of media coverage is liberal as per the stats
2. AI is going to super-charge this dynamic while citizen journalism is going to rise where people can access the whole truth, not just what cable wants you to see. News media pretty much ignored the border crisis, it took Elon and other folks going over and actually posting videos for the country to see what was going on. That's nuts
3. More chunks of the electorate are up for grabs now instead of being 'solidly liberal' (ex. Hispanics in this cycle)
It's a changing world order and dovetails with populism on the rise.
The consequence is that there are bad actors in the form of foreign nations (China, Russia) as well as paid for domestic astroturfing campaigns to try and control the narrative. That said, 'viral' stories have always been a thing and people are better at sniffing out bullshit than most think. It's why the Reddit world once again proved to be so wrong.
Frankly, the old media absolutely deserves this death and erosion of trust. They 100% pump fictional narratives just to create fear, induce panic, and draw ratings. They absolutely do not care about the subjects at hand. How the media covers police violence for example is a perfect example of this phenomenon
It's a brave new world. Will be a rude awakening for the prevailing ideologies of the post WW2 era
I agree, having celebrities endorse you screams out of touch and short on ideas. What does Jennifer Aniston have in common with a working-class voter in Michigan who's struggling with cost of living etc?
I read a stat that Taylor Swift's endorsement made 8% of people want to vote more for Harris but made 20% want to vote LESS. So there's an argument to be made that some of these endorsements actually hurt because it's elites talking down to regular people
Swift Trump supporter confirmed. 3D chess
People also tangle Musk and Rogan endorsements for Trump to be the same as a celebrity endorsement. They are not. Musk is a super successful industrialist, Rogan is now an accomplished businessman in his own right.
Artists , musicians, and movie stars arent really the same thing
Not familiar with Joe Rogan’s work - how is he more of a businessman than any other comedian / entertainer? Hear you on musk but Rogan is just like any other celebrity - he just happens to appeal heavily to 20s and 30s men (I’m assuming your demo).
Populism is also on the rise globally, and it all influences one another as well. So it's a feedback loop that will add a lot of gravitational force to these trends
Populism = Democracy. It's only populism when they talk about policies you don't like.
Agreed 110%.
Trump got 50 million views on Joe Rogan and 30 million with Elon on X. And these are 2hr+ long interviews. When has legacy media ever gotten figures like that?
I think Trump's final internet blitz is largely the reason he got so many young votes. This is the future.
This is a big headwind to Democrats since really at this point identify politics is the soul of that party as ironically Republicans have become the working class party again. Even within that, the two tailwinds for Democrats has largely abated:
1) Abortion -- Trump came right out and said he'd veto any national attempt to ban abortion, he understood that Republicans would lose (as they struggled in 2022) if they pushed on this. More states have enshrined abortion rights this cycle, so this is becoming largely a non-issue. Over time I expect even more will continue to do so. Democrats outright lied in many races about their opponents stance on abortion but voters didn't buy it. It will become nearly impossible to buy now
2) Gay rights -- outside of a small minority, vast majority of the country incl Republicans have adopted a 'live and let live' mentality. You don't see much pushback from conservatives here anymore relative to what we saw 10yrs ago even
Why this ties to mainstream media -- Dems have constantly talked up this issue on MSM and the MSM has supported them in exaggerating Republican agendas against the above, but alternative sources of actual truth (pods, X) have prevailed. MSM will continue to lose influence and the perception will shift in favor of conservatives, in addition to what's actually happened there as well. I'm not sure if the Democrats even have much of a platform left to stand on, they lost in this election a massive chunk of young votes / Hispanics / Arabs / non-whites in general which was a part of the base they took for granted. Pair this with declining college enrollment since 2010/2011 (which will continue) and the woke institutions (college, MSM) will continue losing their grip. Which brings is back to the only issues that truly matters at the end of the day -- economics and foreign policy
As it comes to gay rights the left has actually lost touch with 'reality'. The tail has wagged the dog for years there.
The vast majority of the public thinks things like the below as certifiably insane:
Economy rules all but you WILL lose if you run on platforms catering to the above. It's a non-budge issue for middle america, and frankly anyone with a brain and backbone in coastal america. The best part is MAGA voters dont even care about trans at all. It's live and let live as you said, but the left had to take a mile here because it got likes on twitter and upvotes on reddit. That's not reality, those are the societal outcasts in their echo chambers
Kamala and the democrats are dinosaurs with media its actually embarrassing.
Trump goes on Joe Rogan / Lex Friedman - same with Vance hitting the new media circuit
Kamala's response to this? Going on SNL and the view. SNL hasnt been relavent to culture in like 30 years. No under 35 watches it period.
The fact they thought this was a big deal is pathetic.
She also did TikTok videos
You are not going to like this but the media has absolutely nothing to do with why Harris did not win. She ran a terrific campaign with lots of people on the ground contributing to it. They probably set a record for knocking on doors. Dems were naive about the probability of a black female winning a presidential election. Trump's most loyal support came from uneducated people who are anti immigrant, anti female, anti black and anti trans. How many fucking commercials did he run about Harris's comments about trans people. It was smart to run these ads because uneducated people are very biased.
I am proud to say that the only group of people who did not shift to republican were non orthodox Jews, who generally have an aversion to unethical characters like Trump. Also, the majority non orthodox already have a lot of money and do not really care that much about getting a lower tax rate.
Financeabc moment. Since I am part of the cohort that is allegedly mentally handicapped because I didn’t vote for Kamala, will voting for a liberal next time turn me into a genius?
Instead of being a tough guy, tell me how you disagree with what I said in the comment.
This comment is just purely deranged. The exact mentality is why Hillary lost (unmatched arrogance) and how Kamala lost (plain naivety). For the record, I'm by no means a Trump supporter but my philosophy is that if you just call his voters uneducated bigots and demonize them, you'll never be able to beat a populist like him. Populists flourish when centrist/moderates lose control of governing competence. It's why moderate centrists like Bill Clinton and to an extent Tony Blair's popularity soared when they were delivering economic growth but still strong on current prevalent issues that matter to the working person (not just them exclusively btw) such as immigration and national security. The minute any government loses control is where a vacuum can be filled and exploited by a populist MAGA-esque movement. Kamala didn't lose just because she's a black woman; sure MAGA does attract enough fringe racists/misogynists that can't fathom a black female leading the US but that's not all of the Trump voting coalition. The lesson in beating Trump is by making coherent arguments to people who see past Trump's character flaws yet still vote for him because he'd be perceived to better handle the economy/immigration/[insert wedge issue] - Kamala didn't do that ; her arguments were I'm not Trump and I'm not Biden - this is why she lost
You can't possibly believe that the factors I mentioned are not relevant. There is an Hispanic podcaster that said very few of his male followers would vote for Harris. Another Hispanic commentator said many Hispanics want to live a white life, so Trumps message resonated with them. Ironically, the Hispanic community has the most to lose because has said he wants a mass deportation plan.
I actually love this out of touch mentality, majority of libs I've spoken to feel the same way -- it just means Republicans will keep winning the majority of elections until the Dems realize they need to abandon wokeness and change. That would also be a great outcome in the end as well, whenever it ends up happening.
This election was a critical fork in the road bringing us to a better America, and both paths from here look fantastic. Keep it up financeabc!
I wouldn't get too comfortable with this new regime. After they deport millions of Latinos, they might be targeting your people next. Trump loves a good scapegoat.
You're right, the only Dem I've seen come out and talk about why they lost was Bill Clinton, but he's in a different league (in terms of competency and sensible governance) to the current Democrat party - he knew they kept focusing on the top 1% luxury issues - keep rambling on about them for 4 years and you'll have a Vance/Tulsi ticket that wins handsomely again
Kamala didn't run on trans issues but you cant just untangle those policies from a single campaign in a single year , especially with an establishment candidate. It would be like if a Republican came in during the late 2000s preaching an isolationist foriegn policy - it wont pass the sniff test with voters. Trump pulled it off because he wasnt from the establishment. Kamala meanwhile was an empty suit. Until they commit resources to actually understanding middle america, the democrats are viewed as the party that is fine with giving a 8 year old hormone blockers
But please keep on blaming race. It's all those racists who overwhelmingly voted for Obama in red states like Iowa and Indiana SIXTEEN YEARS AGO who are still racist and refuse to evolve with the times
Legacy news will have its influence greatly diminished. This is correct.
Celebrities will see their influence continue to expand. For starters, let's be really clear about this. Most of the "alternative media" ecosystem is celebrity-centric. By no means is it entirely made up of celebs, but it is mostly a celebrity thing. You do know that there are more ways to be a celebrity than being just an actor, athlete, musician, or on TV, right?
The part I find fascinating, and where I think the left really took a massive L, is the right-wing adjacent media ecosystem. Obviously Tucker or Charlie Kirk are in the bag for the right, just like Pod Save America is for the left, but I think what way more people who aren't politics-obsessed consume are the podcasts and youtube channels that never or rarely talk about politics explicitly but are also right wing or hosted by normal ass dudes who happen to be right wing.
Rogan, Pat McAfee, Bussin' with the Boys, Asmongold, etc. None of these guys are explicitly MAGA, political activists, politics wonks, or whatever, and that brings in a much larger audience and exposes many more casual observers to the worldview. No one under 40, even on the right, actually watches Fox News, yet the left is obsessed to countering the Fox News ecosystem while completely ignoring how Gen X, Millennials, and Gen Z consume media.
The mainstream left has absolutely nothing similar to that. There's no left-wing adjacent football content. There's no left-wing adjacent video game content until you go waaaaaay left like Hasan. There's no left wing "normal people" content. It's all incredibly wonky for politicos, coastal elites discussing their coastal elite bubble, or woke scolds lecturing people.
thats because there is no "left wing" normal people, ful stop.
sorry, but liberalism is a mental disease. imagine being ok with an open border, kids using differnt bathroom than their gender, giving illegals in nyc debit cards to freely use while working class folks are paycheck to paycheck. even stuff like changing the lexicon from "illegal immigrant" to "undocumented migrant'
Eh, agree and disagree. Let's unpack this.
I feel pretty normal and I've been voting for Democrats since Trump first got the primary nomination in 2016. My wife and I work in finance, watch sports, listen to music, enjoy nice shit, etc. like any of you guys do. My hair isn't green. My wife doesn't have a septum piercing. I'm sure some dork here will come out of the woodwork and call me a communist, but I'm actively out here succeeding in capitalism. I don't have any mental diseases I know of outside of adhd.
I think that if you act like a normal person or like normal person things on the left, you just get shit on for it by someone else on the left. There are non-stop purity tests and circular firing squads, especially when it comes to men. Young men want to make money, watch sports, pick up hot women, and play video games but get told that making money makes them an evil capitalist, sports are for brute meatheads, liking titties is misogynist, and that their video games need to be "woke." I totally get why that is exhausting.
On this I agree completely though. Immigration was one of the two big reasons Democrats just got wrecked and not being able to use common sense to tell the activist class "no" painted an easy target on Democrats' backs. If I never heard that something is "problematic" again it would still be too soon.
50% of Wall Street people are dems.
Joe Rogan, Lex Friedman, Theo von, etc. aren't "right wing adjacent" media. They're normal podcasters who gave Trump an appearance when he asked for it. Meanwhile, Kamala Harris not only didn't ask for appearances, but outright declined or ignored them. If she went on a media blitz like Trump did, she could've also reached out to millions of people. But she didn't.
Not that she didn't. She couldn't. Anytime the party let her free-wheel, it would turn out disastrous.
Rogan was an Obama voter, Elon Musk was an Obama voter... I don't understand how that doesn't give democrats at least a signal that, hey, maybe we're alienating a LARGE swath of people with our rhetoric.
No normal person watches asmongold. I love how you tried to slip that in there. Nice try nerd
Lmao I just picked a streamer. I have no idea who the main streamers are. I’m old.
The "woke scold lecturing" is a real thing. In many ways, this election was a rejection of wokeness. I think so many people are just fed up with it. It's a pendulum that swung way too far left and needed to return towards the center.
KH was fixated on telling the public that DT doesn't care about you. He's busy making vile Puerto Rican jokes. While DT was telling the Hispanics and Blacks, you know what, I care about you and I will fix inflation and get you back to where you were in my first term when you had the lowest unemployment and highest wages in your history in America. He could point to real results vs. this meaningless drivel KH espoused. "Turn the page". What does that even mean? Nothing. That's why she lost.
Not about Pronouns, but rather results.
100%. It's pretty funny watching Dems try to post mortem this, you have people like financebc that are clueless beyond their coastal bubbles and can only blame gender for KH's loss (because nothing else is visible beyond their bubbles) that have been running the show
The truth is, Americans are sick and tired of wokeness. It's morning again in America
I’m a democrat who voted for Harris and a few days before the election I listened to a podcast where Ezra Klein (NYT) interviewed a historian regarding changing political orders, and how we are in the mist of another change that occurs every 30 or so years. Title is “Are we on the cusp of a new political order?”
Change is coming. And with that mindset, I recognize that there is more overlap in policy now than there was in 2020. And in a way, I’m excited for the future. The democrats have to change if they want to win again, and I’m looking forward to that.
From the Ezra interview, an example of changing political order: during WWII the democrats brought forward the New Deal with the republicans naturally against things like social security. However, post-WWII, the West found itself in a Cold War with the Soviets and the republicans under the Eisenhower administration supported the New Deal in order to show that the American capitalist life was better than communism.
Today: “from free trade to antitrust, from health care to outsourcing, from China to unions, there is suddenly a lot more overlap in at least the language of the two parties”
Whether or not Harris won or not, the conservative leaning border bill would probably be passed, marking a shift in democrat policy in regards to border and immigration. Hardened China policy, unions, and on shoring would have common ground. Ukraine could also benefit from Trump having the ability to threaten to fund Ukraine with weapons in limitless fashion, thus ending the war with territorial concessions (vs Biden and an uncooperative Congress). It appears unlikely Ukraine will be able to recapture their territory. This all could turn out better for the US, we will just need to see. I believe ACA and protecting pre existing conditions is too popular to kill (something McCain saved several years ago). It’s good to see more minorities in the GOP tent - to me that’s healthier for the body politic. Abortion seems to have been played out, it will be a state by state decision for the foreseeable future.
If Musk and friends do some cost cutting in the Federal Government, I could be ok with that. Like companies, 10% more efficient is probably very doable. We will see. I’m hoping for more American made EV, electric economy.
Another item, Hispanic males voting for Trump. I listened to a NPR reporter interviewing a Miami Republican organizer. The Spanish speaking and Latinos see gang elements in their communities (maybe me a non-Latino would not see) so maybe I can see why they might be for deportations, but I can also see this constituency pushing back on a mass deportation of non-criminal undocumented people who are just working. That’s why, I am watching how this unfolds, because ultimately I could like the direction of the political order change that makes sense of the times.
I ordered that guest's book. Looking forward to reading it.
The thing that I do not understand is how Hispanics would not be worried about family members being deported. If there is a mass deportation, as is the plan, the Hispanic community would be the main target
You continue to play into and indulge in democrat identity politics, which is why you'll never understand. When you escape your liberal media bubble you'll realize just how out of touch you are with the rest of America.
Not every INDIVIDUAL LATINO'S family suffers risk of deportation – there's a difference between identity politics' portrayal & the COMPLEXITIES of REAL LIFE reality
Ezra Klein is so dumb lol. He's a deep state puppet echoing any thing that the MSM says
No sarcasm, I love love love that you call it media and not the news. Putting politics aside, I've had a particular gripe with the so called "news" media in the last handful of years.
When I consume news, I just want the facts. This happened, that happened, x declared war on y etc. etc ,as I prefer to form my opinions. This is now very difficult to do with most "news" sources. Let this shit die man.
The age of decentralization baby.
The naiveness on this thread is scary but not surprising given the recent populist right wing movements all across the world.
The first step to any sort of totalitarian or fascist leader is to damage institutions and academia as completely bogus. Obviously this doesnt mean that institutions and academia to are infallible but they are organizations of free thinking individuals that are subject to change if better ideas are presented. This is well documented especially in Yuval Harai's new book regarding this topic of decentralized knowledge and media. The second you get rid of institutions, academia and other organizations with guardrails you reject all of collective democratic thought and place your hands into one singular person - choose your poison.
It would be incredibly naive to think that this shift away from MSM to "Alt Media" is making you any smarter or "more free". Yea sure its more entertaining to watch Joe Rogan talk to retards like Candace Owens and hear claims like climate change isnt real or that she doesnt think dinosaurs ever existed. Is listening to Tucker say he was scratched by evil demons in his sleep making you a more rational person? The thread is making a mistake by classifying the shift as what is "better" as what is "more entertaining". Yes watching South Park is entertaining but it would be silly to base your reality around a show.
We are in an anti intellectual age and it is no surprise that someone like Trump (the epitome of what it means to reject academia and institutions) won by such a landslide. Imagine if the average American for their opinions read Peer Reviewed journals, was educated in areas like Ethics, Logic, History, Rhetoric and Statistics and remained a skeptic to change their position when the facts change. The problem with this "Alt Media" is how dogmatic it becomes - you trust everything someone says on face value. If someone says something in an Academic Journal like something a Candace Owens esque person would say it wouldnt be allowed to be published and you wouldnt be at risk of swallowing the sewage water of rhetoric she feeds viewers.
This is not to say get on CNN and just take everything they say at face value? Absolutely not, read independent scholars on the same issues, read books, watch documentaries and try running the statistics if possible yourself - then say they are wrong. Trust me I hate the idea of corporations owning media companies to sway public opinion more than anyone but to completely discount the opinion itself without fact checking and thinking that podcasts with no fact checking will save you is so naive. Think for yourselves.
Right, as if the left wing media isn't unfair and dogmatic.
Listen, you don't need to hear an "independent scholar" to realize that 20 million migrant flooding the country and wars all over the world aren't good things.
Look man it takes like 10 minutes to check data on crimes comitted by illegals to disprove all of this. Stop using talking points, 29 people were murdered by illegals in 2023. 29. More people died of Peanut Butter allergies. Do better, look at the data.
Even the most hardcore free market capitalist Milton Friedman says
"Look, for example, at the obvious, immediate, practical example of illegal Mexican immigration. Now, that Mexican immigration, over the border, is a good thing. It’s a good thing for the illegal immigrants. It’s a good thing for the United States. It’s a good thing for the citizens of the country. But, it’s only good so long as it’s illegal."
So I previously addressed the "social issue" about it, and heres the economic addressment. Illegal immigrants propel our economy forward by doing the most undesirable jobs such as working in slaughterhouses etc. Read the last sentence of Friedman's quote and you will understand.
Funny you say 'think for yourselves' when the liberal woke mob has been advocating the opposite of that and attacking anyone that did 'think for themselves' if it didn't fit with their agenda.
let me guess - during COVID you were one of the ones who masked up and didnt dare step outside your house/apartment until you got the jab, and seeing friends or family? Forget about it!
Trust the experts after all!
And the world will undeniably be better for it.
Is it not a little dangerous to shift away from (somewhat controlled and fact checked) media to twitter and TikTok where anyone can post anything? There was so much misinformation this campaign and half the voters either didn’t realise or more worryingly didn’t care.
It is very unreasonable to compare mainstream media with some peer-reviewed academic journal were things are fact-checked for legitimacy. Mainstream media isn't necessarily more reliable than twitter most times—enough of the nonsensical appeal to a made up legitimacy. Mainstream media only tailors their misinformation to suit whatever big entity (government or political movement) wants—while social media's misinformation is tailored to suit the whims of a wider general public
The issue with your wording is 'controlled'...who's doing the controlling and what are their motivations? We know only 3-4% of journalists & anchors are conservative, rest are all liberal...so who's agenda is being pushed here and who's 'facts' are being stated here (while facts that would hurt the agenda are suppressed)? MSM barely if at all covered the border crisis, literally took Elon going over there (with others) and filming what a disaster it was
Agreed that in a balanced 50/50 world the MSM could serve a good function -- that's not the world we live in anymore though, so the only way to compensate is by bringing power to the people. It's a better solution than being lied to
How severe is the problem at the border? Are illegal immigrants more likely to commit violent crimes than US citizens? The data says no. Is the problem that illegal immigrants are taking jobs that US citizens want? The answer is also no. We would be better off deporting people who actually compete for jobs that US people want. Conservatives hire as many any illegal immigrants as dems. Trump hires illegal immigrants. If you mass deport them, businesses and GDP in the US would decline.
As someone not from the US and who has generally pretty much stopped consuming most media (except some TV shows and audiobooks), can someone tell me where the young Turks stand? I rmb back in 2015/16 they were in the bag for Clinton I think and massively anti trump. Then I assume/think in past 2 years they turned against democrats for their support of genocide in Palestine. Where are they now? Anti everyone?
Yeah they're pretty much anti everyone. Cenk is pretty much just pissed that the democrats are having the reactions they are (see some of the denial on this thread). His most recent tweets:
"the most cancerous thing in the Democratic Party is the idea that you shouldn't criticize the Democratic Party. You can't fix a party if you're not allowed to say what's wrong with it. Without new and different ideas, you won't ever be able to adjust and get better."
"They have these insane conversations on TV to diagnose what went wrong with the Democratic Party and will have four establishment pundits talking about populism. Ironically, almost all left-wing populists are never allowed on. So, they have no idea how wrong they are."
I think people are reading far too much into a single election to be honest.
Democrats will still have got 70+ million votes in 2024.
When inflation is still this high, most incumbent parties have lost vote share. You look at who voted for Trump this election and it was a shift of working-class voters. I'm not so sure that the shift is a permanent one and could just be because inflation is this high.
Besides, Trump's just a turnout machine - when he's not on the ballot, turnout drops pretty significantly. Republicans aren't going to have a Trump on the ballot in 2028.
Agreed but also therefore dem turnout will be down without Trump on the ticket. The last 3 elections were Trump vs Anti Trump. Dems haven’t run on much outside of “stopping Trump” for awhile. When he’s off the ticket, both parties will probably see it harder to get turnout (unless Vance is a stud VP and Trump hits the trail with him pretty hard in 2028, but he may be too old for that by then)
Populism is on the rise amidst this backdrop. You're right that the bigger dynamic was inflation, but what's also important is that elites can no longer gaslight voters with only one point of view. In the same way social media hit a defining moment in the 2012 election, this was the podcast election. Or even more so, the victory of 'little tech' (X, podcasts, etc). Big tech remains the empire, but little tech also matters (vs being brushed aside)
Mainstream media at its worst still offers a more nuanced, balanced and factual set of information/analysis than the average podcast and twitter post.
musk has managed to convince a bunch of 18-30 year olds that X is the harbitter of truth, while the reality is that it is filled with propaganda botfarms, AI-generated agitprop and grifters.
Twitter was a premium paid on a call to more or less own economic policy over the next 4 years, his net worth has increased by multiples of the twitter price paid.
My favorite moment was when Rogan thanked Musk directly on his pod for "saving democracy by buying twitter" - complete psyop. Billionaire buys media company to shape narrative in his own financial interest. Insane people still fall for this shit
Not only did he buy Twitter to shape the narrative for his own financial interests, he is advertising Twitter premium while asking for workers for his department in the government.
Not true at all. CNN and their ilk are absolutely parasitic, compared to someone like Joe Rogan who is at the very least well meaning
Convenient to compare CNN w Rogan. What about WSJ vs Alex Jones? Clown
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