University of Pennsylvania's Coordinated Dual Degree Program (LSM, M&T, and Huntsman) vs. Harvard Universtiy
Hello,
I wanted to ask generally how University of Pennsylvania's dual degree programs, namely LSM and M&T compare to Harvard University.
For context (https://lsm.upenn.edu/program/about):
"LSM is an undergraduate dual-degree program administered jointly between Penn's College of Arts & Sciences and the Wharton School. Each year, the program enrolls approximately 24 exceptional students and offers them the opportunity to pursue an interdisciplinary curriculum combining bioscience and business, leading to the completion of two degrees: a Bachelor of Arts in a life science major, as well as a Bachelor of Science in Economics."
So far, in LSM, M&T, and Huntsman programs, I have seen cross-admits from MIT, Princeton, Yale, and Stanford. But, I have yet to find a cross-admit (someone who chose to come to these coordinated dual degree (CDD) programs over Harvard my year), although, I haven't asked everyone. I have also heard of people choosing these programs or Wharton over Harvard. Generally, there's an abundance of Princeton, Yale, MIT, and Stanford (and less competitive T20 schools) cross-admits attending, as students who are admitted are the top of their class and excel in two academic fields.
Good Reddit thread I found with insider information: https://www.reddit.com/r/ApplyingToCollege/commen…
But statistics aside, I want to hear public perception, and I hope WSO can provide me some insight. Thank you!
As someone who went to Penn, choose Harvard. Harvard is as good as Penn for finance, but for everything else Harvard is better.
For VC or raising money for a startup, Harvard/Stanford are by far the two best schools. For SWE/Quant/HFT, Harvard/Stanford/MIT are by far top 3. When applying to graduate schools, Harvard is the #1 school. Prestige/name brand is also better at Harvard. There's just something about the Harvard name that can't be beat.
If it's Princeton or Yale I'd have trouble deciding between M&T and Princeton/Yale. However, for Stanford/MIT/Harvard definitely go there over Penn.
That being said, Penn is still a phenomenal school and outside of IB/PE/HF (VC/Quant/SWE/Startups/Grad school admissions, etc), it isn't far behind HYPSM
These questions might be a little out of scope, but I wanted to ask more about the Vagelos LSM program, which I think is the more unique program. Would you recommend it for a student who is still unsure about going into either medicine or finance? Or students who are interested in biotechnology, and creating the next cutting-edge companies (entrepreneurship)? Penn seems to spend a lot of resources into this program, creating retreats, capstones, and courses taught by world-class faculty for only 24 students in introductory freshmen classes! Which is pretty tough to beat. They also receive two guest speakers a week based on their syllabus, and that's a lot of additional connection opportunities, especially since the guest speakers seems to be insiders of the field. Your peers in these programs are also the top students from all of the potential YPSM schools they might've attended, instead they're in your closest networks. I genuinely believe each top school accepts a particular type of student and having them all in one place must be an advantage. Highly interdisciplinary networks?
And overall, you'd recommend students to choose these coordinated dual degree programs over Princeton and Yale. But a strong consideration is advised for Stanford/MIT/Harvard (although, statistically, CDD programs have a lot of cross-admits from MIT and a few from Stanford)? I agree with the graduate school part, but I'm also worried about missing out on these great undergraduate opportunities, many of them have a richer alumni base than a few decades ago. And the programs have reached enough success, where other schools across the coast are starting to copy and sometimes attribute Penn as their inspiration (and hire Penn faculty). Wouldn't it be nice to acquire a dual set of skills and then attend a different grad school (double the connections) while consistently having more skills than your peers? These are just my considerations too.
I mean its obviously a great program, but I have friends in these programs and I wouldn't consider them "top students."
"Wouldn't it be nice to acquire a dual set of skills" you could also double major at Harvard/Stanford/whatever. And also you can do the same exact thing pretty must thru an uncoordinated dual degree at Penn. if you got into H/S/M I'd choose there over the program. Princeton/Yale, I'd prolly choose Penn.
Anyways why do you care about all this cross admit shit? It has no relevance for your career lol
The Huntsman Program this year has 3 Harvard cross-admits and more Stanford/Yale/MIT cross admits. Send me a message if you want details!
Oh wow! I'd love to hear more. Are you currently affiliated with the Huntsman Program?
This is also the type of statistics I hear across the flagship Penn CDD programs (LSM, M&T, and Huntsman).
Wharton’s a great school and is a peer to HYPSM on it’s own. The programs are basically just gimmicks to attract some top talent away from the other schools. You’ll have some minor perks throughout undergrad that won’t really mean anything long term. No one’s going to know you as the LSM, M&T, or Huntsman alum, you’ll be referred to as a Wharton alum.
Go to Wharton if you like Wharton, go to Harvard if you like Harvard.
As a Wharton graduate, I'd like to clarify that Wharton is a peer to HYSPM in IB/PE/HF.
In everything else HYPSM is a notch above Penn (especially in startups). Having talked to VCs and trying to raise money for my startup, I can't tell you how much a stanford/harvard/mit degree helps lol. Like I thought it didn't make that much of a difference, but those 3 are a league above other schools when it comes to startups.
It's honestly cuz most Penn guys don't try to innovate and build things like the harvard/stanford/mit guys - they just want to go into a top BB/EB job, use that to exit into PE, and then go to HF, and so on. SEAS at Penn would be more useful than Wh if you're trying to build a top startup
Harvard is not known for their software engineering program as well as engineering in general at Harvard is not that strong. Most cs majors who got jobs at big tech, learned to code on their own and did internships at small local companies to build their skill set and portfolio like every other software engineer. San Jose State and UC Santa Barbara have some of the highest representation of alum in big tech due to location. Getting VC money has do with the quality of your balance sheet. I worked as a financial analyst at a start up. You need strong revenue and a positive cash flow statement for investors to speak with you. The burn rate of cash is real. I remember one investor wanted the income statement at a certain ratio for revenue and expenses. Plenty of Harvard grads are wealthy with multimillion dollar trust funds and other friends and family money. There is nothing wrong with this but it is less risky for Harvard grads with money to burn to be a founder of a startup then someone from a middleclass background. Quant roles typically need at least a Masters or PHD in financial engineering, economics, cs or physics. For graduate school, most programs want to diversify their student body. Adcoms will choose some from ivy league schools and some from more middle tier schools. It also depends what you are going to grad school for. Grad school is a very general concept.
Go to Penn. Honestly this is the right take.
I agree. However, I believe if LSM, M&T, and Huntsman alumni meet other Ivy alumni, especially Penn alumni, they'd know the background these students come from.
Have many friends in these coordinated dual degree programs. I think one thing to consider is that only M&T has produced multiple billionaire alums including Cliff Asness of AQR and this other HF manager I can't remember. The other programs LSM and Huntsman do not have high-profile alumni that I can recall. I think this is because to be honest that the two programs Huntsman and LSM just aren't specialized enough or provide enough solid value prop. For instance, if you end up doing LSM, you most likely won't be as good in pre-med or biology as the actual premed and the Wharton degree doesn't actually mesh that well with your BA.
I believe M&T is the oldest of the three programs, and the Ivy League's first coordinated dual degree program.
Thank you for the information!
My two cents: feel like choosing Penn in any form is not the right move over HYPSM. People on here may see Wharton as equal to these schools, but this is not close to true. Wharton will always have high placement into high finance because of the volume of pretty smart kids who all want to get there. Tell anyone you go to HYPSM, they will fawn over you. Harvard definitely the most. UPenn/Wharton, people think you’re pretty smart. UPenn and Wharton are amazing schools, but we’re talking gradations of prestige here, and HYPSM take the cake every time. I’m sure the M&T kids are brilliant, but Penn will never carry the same weight. Plus, would you want to be going to school with 24 of the smartest kids in the U.S./world, or 1,500 of them.
But, because it's only 24 students, the requirements for accepting them are more stringent and M&T, LSM, Huntsman students rarer to find. Every M&T, LSM, and Huntsman kid can be a HYPSM admit too (and from what I've been hearing, many of the RD admits are), but not every HYPSM admit can be an M&T, LSM, and Huntsman admit. My ideas are similar to the ideas in this New York Times article. Programs and schools at the top like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, Stanford, and Penn can accept more students, but they won't because of brand dilution. People can say, you're just another one out of 6,500 undergraduates at Yale (or 1,625 per year), but in these programs, aren't the students seen as wow, you're one of 24 students after employers learn more about the program. I was certainly surprised by the small cohort size.
Additionally, such a small program must mean Penn is putting a disproportionate number of resources into these kids. The programs are still young, we don't know who they'll be in the future. If Penn can produce another Roy Vagelos every 20 years, that is still extremely impressive. Especially, with the Bio Revolution happening.
In contrast, I understand your viewpoint too having attended a HYPSM myself, I know that's how students inside (at least my school's circle) can feel, a superiority complex. But, after being at Penn, I feel like it is a school just as great as HYPSM, and I want to extend this statement onto Caltech, Duke, Johns Hopkins, and Columbia as well. For Caltech, Penn, and Johns Hopkins, they each have field/fields where they are better at than HYPSM schools. They also offer nurturing environments with abundant resources (Harvard, Penn, Stanford, Yale, Princeton, and MIT are the richest schools in the world looking at alumni and endowment, schools like Penn and Columbia/Cornell also have huge hospital systems that add to their wealth which are not accounted for). What they lack is the HYP branding prowess. I would say Stanford and MIT lucked out in marketing; Stanford's founding history is actually quite interesting.
How did Stanford "luck out?" Silicon Valley is what it is today because of them.
Who cares what the average person thinks lol. They probably don't even know what IB is.
If set on a career on finance, I'd choose Wharton over all but Harvard and maybe Stanford. Specific to finance, MDs and partners that I've talked to all view Wharton (along with Harvard) as the 2 best undergraduate schools
Close friend of mine is a M&T grad. He speaks very highly of his experience but cares not for prestige / brand value / optics so can't speak to that.
One of the funniest things he's told me is "I've met and become friends with some of the brightest and also some of the dumbest people in the world during my time in college" I suppose it ties into the point above re: his preference of meritocracy over all else.
Thank you for the insight! What is one of the positive things that he brings up about his experience? Does he ever talk about how M&T assisted in his career prospects?
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