2019/2020 Sales & Trading Bonus Discussion
Figure I'd start one of these for S&T as well for this year as I didn't see one posted yet. Following the below format would be useful for viewers.
Title: AN/AS/VP/D/MD and year (should be the period for which the bonus is being paid)
Rank: Top/Mid/Bottom
Desk Performance: if applicable
Bank Type: BB/EB/MM
$:
% Cash:
Notes:
Hi mcCon123, hope I can help. Do any of these links cover what you're looking for:
I hope those threads give you a bit more insight.
Couple of other things I think should be added
Vesting schedule on cash/stock. My bank has a 3yr vest on cash above a certain level and 2 years on stock.
Desk- IG credit trading, HY credit sales, rates research, etc.
Bump
I think it would be beneficial to include product as well. And sell-side/buy-side.
Personally interested in quant/strats figures; ours aren't announced for another month or so though.
lol no real responses yet..
Title: AS1 Rank: Mid Desk Performance: Strong Bank Type: BB $: 55k Base: 125k % Cash:100 Notes: 1. Desk Quant 2. Oof
oof, can you think of why? are you guys being forced to subsize the overall firm where other divs may not have done as well?
i made more than that as a 1st year desk quant over 10 years ago....ooof is right
One more data point here (NYC):
Title: AS2 Rank: Mid/Top Desk Performance: Above average/Strong Bank Type: BB $: 75k (oof) Base: 150k % Cash: 100% Notes: Trading overall had a strong year/Q4, so she was quite disappointed, moving to 175k base
An3
Rank - unsure
Desk - down yoy
Base - 95
Bonus - 75
what kind of desk are you on?
Title: AS1 Rank: Top/Mid probably Desk Performance: average - slightly up Bank Type: BB $: 30k % Cash: 100% Notes: base from $125k to $140k. I knew bonus was going to disappoint, but I thought base would be $150k at least. Apparently the group is looking to increase overall comp by 5% yoy going forward. If you can’t make more profit organically then cutting comp is an easy way to boost numbers. So, that would mean AS2 all in comp will be $165k and AS3 all in comp will be $175k. For comparison, only a few years ago associate bonuses were $100k-$150k.
That is surprising and extremely low. I cannot make sense of this number (especially based on being mid/top) and haven’t seen numbers this low in the 10+ yrs I have been working, have you looked at moving firms? Move to the buysise?
Yeah, but it’s super hard as fixed income/derivatives sales to make the switch to the buy side. The only buyside roles available are fund sales or IR, which aren’t the most exciting or dynamic roles. Macro funds tend to hire traders only, and L/S equity funds tend to hire M&A kids.
I could move to another sell side firm, but it would be lower ranked bank because my BB is top 3. Those types of firms have hired some people away from my group with big numbers, but word on the street is that after year one they reduce comp significantly, so you’re kind of back at square one again.
Frankly, the business just isn’t what it used to be anymore. Nobody is retiring so there’s no upward mobility, and cutting costs in any way possible is a big focus (smaller teams doing more work, longer hours, lower comp, no promotions as being a 4th or 5th year associate is a thing now, no more business class flights, less client entertainment, etc.)
Your notes are disheartening. All in AS2 comp will only be 165k? Sounds like I should be looking for another job.
This comp is extremely low for an associate, and if your future projections are correct you are getting hosed.
A number of associates have brought this up, and the response has basically been “Deal with it. If you don’t like it you can leave.” They’d rather pay the MDs and to some extent directors, and anyone below that is seen as expendable and interchangeable. There isn’t really room to move up anyways, so I’m sure they don’t mind if people leave.
Unfortunately, your story is not unique. I had a similar story for the last couple years but was lucky enough to get out and go to a fund.
I have several friends who just got their numbers last week and its a similar story from them, with their number being lower. One of them asked the desk head if her numbers was so low because of personal performance to which the desk head told her that she was the star associate but it was just a hard year and that they should all be lucky that there weren't layoffs.
Wonder what JPM's FI desk got paid this year
Dude they made out like bandits. FICC up 89%? Jesus Christ.
Lol yeah beat expectations by $800mm+
Not much, apparently.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-27/jpmorgan-is-said-to-…
Not much, apparently.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-27/jpmorgan-is-said-to-…
Title: AS1 (stub - first year as a trader)
Rank: Average
Desk performance: Average
Firm: BB
Bonus: 15k
Base: Raise from 125k to 140k
Disappointed I guess, however with being a first year and joining mid year I wasn't sure what to expect. Spent the year doing typical JR trader things so had limited opportunities to contribute in a meaningful way. In the context of what the traders on the desk make 15k just seems almost insultingly low to me for an FO job regardless of experience. Is this typical?
Not out of the ordinary. Did you get a signing bonus?
I did not but the move was intra-co
traders at a BB are paid about 5% of YOUR P&L. if you don't have any P&L...you won't get paid.
5% = 50k on 1mm
so, if your desk head thinks you are responsible for 5mm of P&L...they will pay you 250k (approx) at least...that has been my experience
make 80mm..get paid 4mm...at which point yo should goto a hedge fund to get 15
important to note that its rare for junior traders to make these kind of number all on their own....which is what makes them superstars
This is way outdated. 1. Nowadays, traders at banks rarely get paid % of book, unless they are superstars and management needs to keep them on board at all costs (even then - it wouldn't be a stated % of book). 2. You can get paid even if you don't have PnL - strong analyst in a killer group can get paid more than a Jr. Trader on a mediocre desk. I know this for a fact.
In this day and age, comp at a bank is more political than ever. As has been mentionned in other comments, even if you have a killer year, you're not going to get a % of book - mgmt will pay you to not leave. Investment banks are NOT in the business of swinging for the fences like a Citadel would be in some products, and traders at banks are not incentivized to take on massive risk (with a few exceptions). Mgmt is looking for smooth growth in S&T revenue. Tons of traders at banks today sitting there in a MM function facilitating client flow and more than happy with their comp.
BB S&T Ao3 Base 160 Bonus 85 New Base 175 Promoted to VP
It seems the average all in comp for S&T is lower compared to IB. Is that correct?
Yes
it depends...if you make 10mm trading...you'll get paid around 500k...even if you are a 1st year associate.
Title: An2
Desk performance: Not good
Firm: top BB
Bonus: 40k
Base: Raise from 90 to 95k
Thoughts: Pretty disappointed since was given indication of being a top performer in the analyst class. Not much variance vs. other analysts (would say about mid to high end of what I've heard) besides 1-2 high/low outliers but thoughts are that they're using a bad PnL year for the broader team to underpay An2s. Most An2s here feel very underpaid - kind of sucks because I expected comp without much of a beta to the team's PnL at this stage. Expect some exodus + some to leave the industry as a whole.
Do most ppl exit to hedge funds? Is it difficult?
That's pretty much the main exit opp. Varies a bit based on your desk of course - some folks in credit, for instance, could go to certain kinds of private equity firms. A more recent trend is folks exiting for to join startups.
It depends on the desk and role. From a sales desk, cash equity trading desk (is this still a thing), or a desk that handles vanilla/linear products it is much more difficult/almost impossible to make the jump to an Analyst/PM track at a HF. Most of the transitions to HFs are guys on macro desks (EMFX, commodities, rates) that deal with derivatives who go to global macro shops.
Obviously this is not easy and takes time. Its not as simple as saying oh well I got a low bonus this year, time to make the jump to a HF. Hundreds of others will be applying for the spot and there is probably a reason for the low bonus (desk or personal nonperformance). With that in mind why would a HF want to hire someone from a poor preforming desk when they can scoop up a star from a high preforming desk.
In recent years many traders have gone on to startups/entrepreneurship as others here have said. From my starting analyst class, about 20% have gone on to work for a startup in the past few years. They are usually involved in fintech startups that have a lending/financing/leasing/cap markets focus. Very cool space to be honestly. I visited a friend in SF back in Nov and it is a pretty good life.
For the first 2 or 3 years as an analyst, comp is set rate, right? meaning if its a good or bad year, comp is fixed.
Usually how it works is that there are tiers for what your rating is. Something like 50k, 65k, and 75k depending on good you were as an analyst. Every firm is different but most of the time you are paid from HR, not your desk if you are part of a graduate program.
Ok full disclaimer that these are not my stats; they are two of my friends' numbers. I don't get my bonus until March.
Title: Analyst 3? Rank: Mid Desk Performance: slightly up Bank Type: MM FX Sales $: 30k Notes: Base going from $95k to $125k
Title: Associate 2 Rank: Top Desk Performance: average Bank Type: BB Commodities trader (niche product) $: 40k % Cash: 100% Notes: Base going from $140 to $165. She was very disappointed on number and asked the desk head if it was bad performance on her part. Desk head basically said times are tough and this is what it is and that they are lucky nobody got laid off this year
Numbers seem meh this year so far
This is shockingly low. I've seen juniors in IBD get higher signing bonuses than that... If I got 30k as a top ranked Associate 2, I'd seriously look at switching banks or products...
Just for the record the Associate 2 got $40k,not that is makes much of a difference.
Yeah the S&T numbers are low and this is the reality for many people working on a trading floor at a bank. Switching banks/products is not always the easiest thing to do with 4-5 years experience in a specialized/niche position. Switching banks would be difficult if the product has a small universe and not many banks are active in that area anymore and switching desks is difficult because you have developed a very unique still set and knowledge base that might not easily transfer into another product (ex if you understand the fundamentals of trading convertible notes, you won't have developed the skills/client base to sell base metals).
In case you were wondering, the associate will be going to BSchool in the fall...
There's no question that S&T as a whole is paid a lot less than IBD in particular allIBD. In most cases, they are working close to 2x your hours. Working 50 hours a week in S&T (maybe 60) vs. 80-100 hours in IBD.
Base for associate levels should be somewhere around 150k. The 30k numbers are pretty low to be fair. If you're doing pretty well, should be double that, so 60-90k. All in comp around 200-240k. Even if best performing IBD junior positions are making 150-200k bonus, on a per hour basis, it's more or less the same. If you're working much more than 50 or 60 hours a week, then you're having it pretty rough.
Agreed fully. In recent years the spread between IBD and S&T comp has blown out so hard, it's difficult to ignore. I will also say that while IB hours are longer thna S&T on average, I know of S&T analysts and associates grinding very hard (70 hours a week) in some strong performing teams. That said, you are right - most people in S&T are working very chill hours, especially at the senior level.
I think it is very important to note that there is a trend currently in the S&T world - I've seen it first hand. Return on capital for S&T businesses has become mediocre - thanks to growing compliance spending and tech spending. In an effort to fight this, banks have been, and are, reducing headcount in the front office. This has meant longer hours for front office people because teams are much leaner than before, while total comp has been flat to down. You used to have armies of highly paid FO people at BBs doing the work that a team 1/3 the size are doing today for less money. S&T just isn't what it used to be - and the future is not looking good - as evidenced by the numbers in this thread.
If I'm a college student today choosing between S&T and IBD, the choice is very clear...
Agreed. Although I am not very bullish on the future of the industry (overall finance included). Recent trends are just going to continue, comp will never return to where it once was. More people probably need to be let go from S&T and buyside investing tbh (can see more than half of the industry being cut in the next ten years). Absolute fund returns aren't what they once were either (thanks to various factors, but mostly technology and markets being more efficient). The truth is that finance is an industry that is fighting a losing battle with technology. Technology will always win out. If you plan on staying, you better be in a position where you can go with that trend rather than against it. Or leveraging capital for others in need to use which has gone on all of history too (aka lending money using bank balance sheet or funding related role for counter-parties which comes down to carry). There are way too many buy-side firms as well - but you're starting to see more and more shut down.
On the sell side, compliance and regulatory costs have exploded and will keep going higher (creating extra costs/jobs at the cost of efficiency..) so that's another issue. See that article about the JP Morgan trader getting in trouble over just using WhatsApp, but unfortunately don't think that will change anytime soon either. The fact that you can lose your job or even go to jail for something like that is just a joke.
At least with banking, you can move into something other than finance. Even then I'm a little skeptical of how long that can last. I probably wouldn't recommend anyone to enter finance these days at all unless you have a plan to leave sooner rather later. With that being said, the money is still pretty good and be thankful for, just have to be aware of the deteriorating industry. When I first joined, I didn't think the deterioration would accelerate this fast, and it sure has. You just saw every BB crush it in FICC, but as you can see nobody on this thread has gotten "paid" - that should sum it up. Worst thing that can happen is you get let go mid-career with no other real skill or experience. Expectations of how much money you can make just have to toned down (a lot) especially by those trying to enter the industry - even for the buy-side now.
At the end of the day, the best opportunities to make a lot of money are what it always has been through the history of mankind - developing a business (not necessarily a startup). The days of it not being uncommon for people making multiples of millions in finance are going to be gone soon, ifnot already gone.
Associate 1 got promoted to Associate 2. Base comp was 125K as an associate 1 with a full year bonus of 110K (about 10K in stock) at a US BB in FICC Sales (Non-NYC). New base is 140K as an associate 2. Strong year for FICC, my bank and my desk.
Congrats, This is encouraging to see. Associate comp posted in this thread is pretty depressing. Did your desk have a great year or is this in line with the rest of the bank?
Personally was suprised with the bonus number (was honestly thinking it would be between 50k-75k). My desk was up over 30%+ (I was specifically was up more y/y and got was able to expand our business quite a bit). Other associates on different desks their numbers ranged between 35K-70K. Have about 2 months before I head off to business school to switch into investment banking.
ROE has been struggling quite a bit in this business since the financial crisis (more regulation), increased automation leading to margin compression, and very few people leaving the business (i.e. I have seen associates who are stuck at the same level for more than 4 years).
Title: AN0 (Starting in August) Rank: Top Bank Type: BB $: 200K HKD % Cash: 100% Notes: Same amount across all new analysts
Title: Trader (VP) Rank: Mid Desk Performance: flat Bank Type: Prop $: 100k GBP (~130k USD) % Cash: 75 Base: 125k GBP (~ 160k USD) Notes: London based, market maker competing directly with banks
Although the common consensus is that comps are relatively low, do people working in S&T feel they are learning a lot? Skills, unique knowledge about the markets, etc.
For the most part, no. It's very dependent on what role you end up in. For the most part, you won't be gaining any skills or learning anything unique. If you're a junior sales person or execution type trader, what have you learned? You'll learn how to trade if you end up on a desk that takes risk, but that's not exactly a skill that translates well elsewhere. As I mentioned before, there are less and less of these roles now. I know a lot of people in dying or dead-end type roles (associate or VP level) and leaving industry.
Fortunately, I'm in a pretty good role at a BB where I have a lot of flexibility to trade in a "prop" way with very good hours. I genuinely enjoy trading and analyzing markets. Even then, I'm studying outside of work to continue being relevant in the workforce. It would be very easy to be complacent and that's another danger in S&T especially with the direction the industry is heading.
Therefore, for someone who wants to nurture a knowledge base and develop insights, market making should be the aim?
Trader Rank: Strong performance Prop $: 275k Base: 150k
your desk was down and still got a bonus? Also are you quant or dev? In hft I've seen devs do quite a bit of heavy lifting so get comp'd as much if not more than signal research.
Down as in less pnl than last year, 2018 was a really good year industry wide so it’s not a surprise. I’m a trader. It depends on the firm I think devs get treated quite well but not as much as traders either on average or in the tail
What are the chances of being able to switch to IB from S&T? Starting as an S&T summer analyst (sales) at a top BB this summer
It is possible, more so if you’re just doing an SA stint. 4-5 people in my SA class switched within the bank. And I’m not talking 5 out of 20. Those who requested the move got it, as far as I know.
Granted, my BB did a lot of IB hiring this past year so maybe that had to do with it.
How do you go about requesting a transfer like this? Do you have to wait until you get the S&T offer at the end or do you have to make this known mid summer? How do you do this with out pissing people off and if your transfer is denied can you go back?
BB S&T - FICC, strong performance Ao1 - mid/top Base 12.5 Bonus 4.5 New Base 14
https://media2.giphy.com/media/d2lcHJTG5Tscg/giphy.gif" alt="cry" />
how’s the bonus for the traders at GS?
VP2 ~ 350k bonus out of which 100 was defered over 2-3y. base 175 BB Eq derivs. Very good year for my subdesk, shitty year for the floor, most people are down yoy. I feel it's ok but could have been much better if floor was doing good.
how'd that compare to your vp1?
+15%ish on total. I feel like if the floor was doing good could have gotten more like +30-40% given desk perf
How much of the deferred was cash vs stock?
Are you in sales or trading?
how old are you? 525k all in is mad good if you're in your late 20s or something
Yes 29, can't complain for sure...
Title: 1st year trader Rank: Top Desk Performance: Good Bank Type: n/a Salary: $145k Bonus: $41k
Not sure if I should be pissed off or not... Technically, I personally didn't make any money so... I guess it's not terrible?
Prop shop? How is your base so high?
Bigger trading firm. Not pure prop shop.
I do have 5 years of experience in other roles before I started trading here. I’m not right out of college
Boutique
S&T
VP
Equities
$495k
100% commission
Are you in sales or salestrading?
ST - NYC
What is your payout rate?
Adipisci esse enim explicabo suscipit. Enim iusto autem consectetur vero. Sit impedit ut sit accusantium praesentium perferendis facilis. Non autem sunt enim dicta in ipsa praesentium. Temporibus eligendi maiores dolor rerum. Possimus et suscipit alias id voluptatem. Expedita consequatur dolorem voluptatem.
Nemo aut magnam voluptatibus perferendis ut minima enim. Consequuntur libero explicabo fugit eum ad quia deserunt. Dolores consequatur necessitatibus id voluptates sapiente.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Et ut dolor consequatur laboriosam. Laboriosam laboriosam molestiae corporis. Aliquid aut delectus alias sapiente. Qui et tempora dolore quidem non reiciendis. Incidunt sit deserunt eveniet repudiandae incidunt similique.
Fugit enim neque error et voluptatem et ipsum perferendis. Illo voluptatem aut deleniti culpa explicabo. Ipsum quo possimus qui et incidunt.
Ad reprehenderit amet voluptas ratione. Eius nulla aliquam aut distinctio hic. Fugit qui exercitationem enim dolore optio corrupti molestiae. Libero quaerat est totam unde aut perferendis.
Amet eos aut aut voluptate id. Et aperiam molestias voluptas sapiente in iste. Saepe iure enim aliquid vel esse. Consequuntur autem necessitatibus voluptas et facilis nisi placeat. Laudantium et hic vel doloremque minima vero commodi vero.
Dignissimos dicta quia perferendis dolor temporibus aut quia. Praesentium beatae suscipit qui dolorem vel voluptates et. Earum nobis aliquam libero corrupti omnis.
Perspiciatis et dolorum fuga alias voluptatem eligendi. At quaerat sapiente voluptas consequuntur sed eius eligendi voluptatem. Dolore qui ipsa error eos nemo in.
Velit inventore quo quia consequatur dicta illo. Odit temporibus sed laborum exercitationem aliquam ipsa. Voluptatem qui deserunt ipsam odit voluptatem omnis. Voluptatum harum earum officiis reprehenderit perspiciatis quo iusto ut.