7/31/12

Sales and Trading Salary vs Investment Banking

It seems like since the beginning of time, trading and investment banking have been the dream jobs of countless undergrads seeking big bucks. A lot changed when the financial crisis of 2008 came along, and trading was arguably the most affected industry. There's a popular notion that trading salaries have dipped so deep it's no longer a worthy pursuit. While it's true that trading salaries will never reach the skies like they did pre-2008, trading salaries and the industry altogether remain a very worthy pursuit.

Investment banking analysts make around $120-130k all-in. A S&T analyst salary is pretty comparable, anywhere from $110-130k all-in. Second-year analysts make 10-15% more than those figures in both IB and S&T, give or take. As you climb the ranks, IB tends to make slightly more than S&T, although that's only based on averages.

The main difference between IB compensation and S&T compensation is performance. In IB, bonuses vary based on how you rank against your peers, but the difference in bonus is marginal. In S&T, bonuses can easily vary by $100k+.

Performance drives S&T, and it drives the salary in S&T, too. Top performers in S&T make far more than their peers at an equal level in IB. There are traders pulling in a million dollar bonus before they reach 30 years of age, but those traders are far rarer than they used to be. (See the S&T Myth - Shrinking Salaries section for more on that.)

The significance of performance and performance-based bonuses varies in S&T depending on the type of shop/bank. The most risky type of trading is the most dependent on performance and has the greatest variation in bonus depending on performance. The opposite is true for low risk trading. The greatest risk/reward type of trading to the most risk averse type of trading follows this order:

  1. Proprietary Trading: Trading with the shop's (and your own, at more extreme shops) money. Idea generation falls entirely on the shop.
  2. Flow Trading: A mix between prop trading and agency trading, it's trading with a client's money on ideas generated by the shop.
  3. Agency Trading: Executing a client's trade request with their money entirely.
  4. Among these three branches of trading, there are many more branches that qualify the type of securities traded (fixed income, emerging markets, etc.). These three types of trading all involve an element of performance since S&T is extremely meritocratic. That's why - despite extreme uncertainty and shifts in the industry - there's still an incredible demand for S&T jobs out of undergrad.

    Another critical factor to consider when comparing IB salaries is the lifestyle. In investment banking, lifestyle is pretty much nonexistent as you'll be pulling an average of 80 hours per week. This is opposed to S&T, where you'll be pulling an average of 40-60 hours (closer to 60, but it depends on what you're working on at the time). While salaries across IB and S&T are comparable, people in S&T make roughly the same and lead a far better lifestyle.

    Sales and Trading Compensation Per Level

    With the help of thousands of users who privately provided their compensation data, WSO has been able to develop accurate salary information for S&T. Although this information is from 2010, the figures are still accurate, give or take a little bit. We've also compiled information (thanks to 30,000+ unique users) on salary, career opportunities, satisfaction, and much more as of 2017 to create the WSO Private Equity Industry Report and the WSO Investment Banking Industry Report.


    Sales & Trading Shrinking Salary Myth

    There's this idea that salaries in S&T are shrinking, but that idea is, in fact, a misconception based on the status of the industry. The fact is, S&T is shrinking because of regulations. Desks can't and are no longer willing to incur as much risk as pre-2008 trading, and many banks are closing desks. The result isn't lowered salaries, but fewer jobs. While the industry is undergoing massive change, it will still always exist in some form or another.

    The days of million dollar bonuses and high-flying everywhere you look in S&T are over. Despite the hit salaries took post-2008, getting an S&T job is hyper-competitive due to the dwindling number of desks. Salary is still comparable to investment banking, but in terms of career versatility, IB is the clear winner - notably as a stepping stone to private equity. Ultimately, this means that S&T isn't a field you should pursue unless you have a passion for trading.

    Prop Trading Pay Structure

    To reiterate the different types of trading: prop trading is trading on account of the firm and yourself. This is opposed to agency trading, which is simply executing trades; traders at bulge bracket banks are agency traders. Flow trading is in the middle of both; it's trading on account of the clients but the firms generate the ideas.

    Prop trading compensation functions a little different from agency/flow trading because you're trading with the firm's money and/or your own money.

    Profit and loss (P&L) is the percentage of money you make on your trades (or the lack of money you make if you lost money trading). Generally, bulge bracket traders don't get paid on P&L. Their bonuses are based on ranking/rating/bucket. Prop traders can make anywhere from 10-90% P&L.

    What Goes Into Sales & Trading Salary?

    (Base) + (P&L - Seat Cost) * P&L% = All-in Compensation
    Here is an example of how bonuses are calculated from @MeatHead":

    Bank pay is around 6%. Some years less but rarely ever more than that. I think it's safer saying, if you got 6%, you would be satisfied. The pay is low, low relative to uber drivers, because of the back office, middle office, MDs in said BO/MO/Compliance that get paid 250k salaries for sitting on their asses that the trader has to make revenue for. This fixed-cost per seat usually comes out around to 2-3mm.

    So take your trader (Pnl-this seat cost(2-3mm))*.06

    So if I make 10mm around early December, which is when most banks effectively cut off Pnl for bonus purposes, 3mm is dinged against me, and I net 7mm in Pnl. This 7mm * 6% is 420k minus my 160k salary nets me 260k in bonus. Working at banking they will pay 70-75% in cash, and the rest will be vested over the next 4 years in a combination of bank stock and cash. If I quit before the 4 years, I get only a pro-rated share that I've already received.

    This is usually how a trader's compensation is determined. Base depends on level, whereas bonus is determined by P&L, which is reasonably reflective of your performance.

    If you're in debt at the end of the year, you'd likely end up with no bonus.

    Struggling Industry - Is Trading Worth It?

    There's no doubt that trading has changed significantly since 2008. The number of desks nowadays pales in comparison to the amount back in the day. Fewer jobs are available, but that doesn't distract from the distinct appeal of the trading environment. Your own success is up to you, both in terms of landing a job in S&T and in terms of succeeding as a trader. Here's how you can easily answer, Is trading worth it? from @setarcos.

    If you can make money trading, then yes, it is. If you can't, then there's no point pursuing a career.
    Tech/market structure, etc. is so different for each product that, ''Oh guys, it'll be automated," makes no sense. You gonna automate distressed credit trading, ya? Good luck.

    So back to the original question - can you make money trading? How are you going to find that out? Well, by trying it, PA or otherwise, but until you actually take risk and try, you won't know the answer.

    The fact is there will always be jobs available in trading. You reap what you sow, and if you want to reap the rewards of trading, then you better be prepared to put in the work. Trading salaries remain solid, and the environment is constant. Competition is fierce, so if you have a passion for trading, start trading early on your own personal account.

    Original Thread

    I've done a lot of searching, and surprisingly, there hasn't been much discussion on this topic, and there's no clear cut answer. It seems like trading salaries and banking salaries are more or less the same. Can someone confirm this? If so, why are so many more people willing to pull in 40+ additional hours per week for the same pay?

Comments (175)

7/31/12

I don't know if it can get any more clear-cut than this shit...

//www.wallstreetoasis.com/page/new-2010-compensation...

Trading requires a very specific skill set that many bankers don't have, and they have to perform. IBD offers different exit opps that S&T does not (ie: PE). Another thing, the stock market isn't open at 2am when bankers are making pitch books. Hope that answers your questions.

Financial Modeling
7/31/12
BTbanker:

I don't know if it can get any more clear-cut than this shit...

//www.wallstreetoasis.com/page/new-2010-compensation...

Trading requires a very specific skill set that many bankers don't have, and they have to perform. IBD offers different exit opps that S&T does not (ie: PE). Another thing, the stock market isn't open at 2am when bankers are making pitch books. Hope that answers your questions.

Holy Shit! Is this the entire industry? If so, I'd like to see a comp report for the tri-state area.

Here to learn and hopefully pass on some knowledge as well. SB if I helped.

7/31/12
That_Aston:
BTbanker:

I don't know if it can get any more clear-cut than this shit...

//www.wallstreetoasis.com/page/new-2010-compensation...

Trading requires a very specific skill set that many bankers don't have, and they have to perform. IBD offers different exit opps that S&T does not (ie: PE). Another thing, the stock market isn't open at 2am when bankers are making pitch books. Hope that answers your questions.

Holy Shit! Is this the entire industry? If so, I'd like to see a comp report for the tri-state area.

NYC IBD you can expect about 70k base and 40k bonus.

7/31/12
BTbanker:
That_Aston:
BTbanker:

I don't know if it can get any more clear-cut than this shit...

//www.wallstreetoasis.com/page/new-2010-compensation...

Trading requires a very specific skill set that many bankers don't have, and they have to perform. IBD offers different exit opps that S&T does not (ie: PE). Another thing, the stock market isn't open at 2am when bankers are making pitch books. Hope that answers your questions.

Holy Shit! Is this the entire industry? If so, I'd like to see a comp report for the tri-state area.

NYC IBD you can expect about 70k base and 40k bonus.

What about at the associate level?

Here to learn and hopefully pass on some knowledge as well. SB if I helped.

7/31/12
That_Aston:
BTbanker:
That_Aston:
BTbanker:

I don't know if it can get any more clear-cut than this shit...

//www.wallstreetoasis.com/page/new-2010-compensation...

Trading requires a very specific skill set that many bankers don't have, and they have to perform. IBD offers different exit opps that S&T does not (ie: PE). Another thing, the stock market isn't open at 2am when bankers are making pitch books. Hope that answers your questions.

Holy Shit! Is this the entire industry? If so, I'd like to see a comp report for the tri-state area.

NYC IBD you can expect about 70k base and 40k bonus.

What about at the associate level?

100k base, 70k bonus for 1st year associates (Bonuses are low right now).

8/1/12
BTbanker:
That_Aston:
BTbanker:
That_Aston:
BTbanker:

I don't know if it can get any more clear-cut than this shit...

//www.wallstreetoasis.com/page/new-2010-compensation...

Trading requires a very specific skill set that many bankers don't have, and they have to perform. IBD offers different exit opps that S&T does not (ie: PE). Another thing, the stock market isn't open at 2am when bankers are making pitch books. Hope that answers your questions.

Holy Shit! Is this the entire industry? If so, I'd like to see a comp report for the tri-state area.

NYC IBD you can expect about 70k base and 40k bonus.

What about at the associate level?

100k base, 70k bonus for 1st year associates (Bonuses are low right now).

Ah, those numbers are more like it!

Here to learn and hopefully pass on some knowledge as well. SB if I helped.

8/1/12
BTbanker:
That_Aston:
BTbanker:
That_Aston:
BTbanker:

I don't know if it can get any more clear-cut than this shit...

//www.wallstreetoasis.com/page/new-2010-compensation...

Trading requires a very specific skill set that many bankers don't have, and they have to perform. IBD offers different exit opps that S&T does not (ie: PE). Another thing, the stock market isn't open at 2am when bankers are making pitch books. Hope that answers your questions.

Holy Shit! Is this the entire industry? If so, I'd like to see a comp report for the tri-state area.

NYC IBD you can expect about 70k base and 40k bonus.

What about at the associate level?

100k base, 70k bonus for 1st year associates (Bonuses are low right now).

or 100K base and 0 bonus in this environment

8/1/12
Bobb:
BTbanker:
That_Aston:
BTbanker:
That_Aston:
BTbanker:

I don't know if it can get any more clear-cut than this shit...

//www.wallstreetoasis.com/page/new-2010-compensation...

Trading requires a very specific skill set that many bankers don't have, and they have to perform. IBD offers different exit opps that S&T does not (ie: PE). Another thing, the stock market isn't open at 2am when bankers are making pitch books. Hope that answers your questions.

Holy Shit! Is this the entire industry? If so, I'd like to see a comp report for the tri-state area.

NYC IBD you can expect about 70k base and 40k bonus.

What about at the associate level?

100k base, 70k bonus for 1st year associates (Bonuses are low right now).

or 100K base and 0 bonus in this environment

Or $shit severance in this environment

8/1/12
SirBarney:
Bobb:
BTbanker:
That_Aston:
BTbanker:
That_Aston:
BTbanker:

I don't know if it can get any more clear-cut than this shit...

//www.wallstreetoasis.com/page/new-2010-compensation...

Trading requires a very specific skill set that many bankers don't have, and they have to perform. IBD offers different exit opps that S&T does not (ie: PE). Another thing, the stock market isn't open at 2am when bankers are making pitch books. Hope that answers your questions.

Holy Shit! Is this the entire industry? If so, I'd like to see a comp report for the tri-state area.

NYC IBD you can expect about 70k base and 40k bonus.

What about at the associate level?

100k base, 70k bonus for 1st year associates (Bonuses are low right now).

or 100K base and 0 bonus in this environment

Or $shit severance in this environment

True as well. Though a lot of my friends who are associates haven't been hit with lay offs (lets hope that keeps) but they have been hit with low bonuses

12/12/12

.

7/31/12

So basically bankers make slightly more in total, but traders make much more on an hourly basis.

"The code of competence is the only system of morality that's on a gold standard." - Francisco d'Anconia

7/31/12
tobywashere:

So basically bankers make slightly more in total, but traders make much more on an hourly basis.

Impossible to say and it seems like both are making low bonuses right now.

12/12/12

Any replies?

12/12/12

80k all in

12/12/12

way more than that

12/12/12

For recent MBA grads, 80K is the floor. Per Jimbo's comments, if you're from a target, I've seen starting at 106K...

"Cut the burger into thirds, place it on the fries, roll one up homey..." - Epic Meal Time

12/12/12

vadremc, that doesn't include any bonus?

12/12/12

Dont know about MBA's but undergrad analysts base is 60=65k, plus 10 signing, plus year end bonus....in a lot of cases all in its over 100k for a first year analyst.

12/12/12

i thought 1st year analyst bonus was generally 1x base

12/12/12

It's the same as banking analysts.

12/12/12

Thanks for the replies. This is for an associate position. Any idea about the base, year end bonus and sign on bonus is appreciated.

12/12/12

it's standard...usually like 95kbase, 30k signing and a similar stub the first yr.

12/12/12

I'm in the UK but I have a friend who came in as an MBA associate on APS50K base, APS10k sign-on, and a APS10K guaranteed minimum bonus.

12/12/12

that's a little low.

12/12/12

It was in 2002...so yeah maybe it is low now.

12/12/12

All US offices pay sales, trading, IB, research, and structuring the same thing first year out of b-school--95K base, 40K signing (was 30K for 2006 grads, just increased for 2007 grads), and stub. This year stub was 45K pretty much everywhere. There is no variation in stub or signing for post-MBA associates.

12/12/12

skins data sounds about right, i was using older info which was the last i'd heard...pretty good, better than i got.

12/12/12

1st year analyst.. APS36k + APS5k signing + APS36k year end.

12/12/12

that seems like a lot.. where do you work pokerloser

12/12/12

Any idea what those nos are if you start in HK?

12/12/12

actually, 50k in british pounds = 100k US, so that sounds about right.

12/12/12

my first year, i got 140 all in.

12/12/12

this is all BEFORE taxes correct?

12/12/12

of course it's before taxes, but living in houston, NO STATE TAXES baby!!!

12/12/12

when do S&T analysts get their bonus at BB. Do they get a stub in Jan?

12/12/12

I know this is an old thread but can anyone tell me if this info is still current? Or has the pay gotten better or worse? I too am also a late bloomer. In my late 20s looking to break in. From a target school but no finance major and no mba. Any thoughts? Thx

12/12/12

Analyst level: 70k base + 10-20k stub bonus first (half) year
Associate level: 100k base (?) + 20k stub bonus

12/12/12

@peyo212
Any other insight to my post? Is the fact that I'm a late bloomer (age 29) going to hurt my chances of getting into the industry. I'm a hard worker, smart individual just looking for a way in/networking. I currently work in consumer banking and need a new career. Thx for any help or insight.

12/12/12

JosephG23:

@peyo212

Any other insight to my post? Is the fact that I'm a late bloomer (age 29) going to hurt my chances of getting into the industry. I'm a hard worker, smart individual just looking for a way in/networking. I currently work in consumer banking and need a new career. Thx for any help or insight.

It's going to be EXTREMELY tough without doing an MBA. And btw S&T is even harder now because they are shying away from MBA hiring. Just want to share the reality, not trying to discourage.

MBAs get $100k salary, ~$20-30k signing bonus, $35k stub bonus after a few months during Dec/Jan, $20k salary bump in Jan, and then you're on the normal year end bonus cycle from there.

12/12/12

Wow, these numbers are low.

100k base, 35k signing bonus, 0.5-0.75X stub.

This is USD, in NYC

12/12/12

@creditanalyst85
I'm willing to put the work in, and willing to learn. I graduated from nyu back in 07 with the intent of going to law school. That didn't pan out, lol, and I'm very interested in breaking my way into the finance field. Are there any jobs you would recommend that are more likely to hire someone like me, where the learning curve is in my favor? I learn things very quickly and I don't quit. I've been told alot of these jobs are hands on experience. Thx again

12/12/12

120k base, 50k signing bonus, 1x base bonus. Very hard for an MBA/non-technical field to get into trading

12/12/12

@woohoobaby
I don't have an MBA yet. I was wondering if it was crucial for someone such as myself to break into the field? Some people say yes others say no. Any suggestions or stories of friends/co-workers who had to break in the hard way!

12/12/12

I don't quite understand your question. In the end, interest in trading and technical skills are getting more and more important for traders. Hope this helps.

12/12/12

@woohoobaby
I guess what I was trying to say is: I have high interest in breaking into the trading sector but I have never worked in that field before. Would I need to get my mba before attempting to get a position, or would I stand a chance by applying for an entry position like a traders asst? Thx again!

12/12/12

To be honest, I would forgo MBA altogether and do a more quantitative degree, like a master's in math, stat, FE, OR. It is hard breaking in these days even for entry level jobs with just a bachelors. It really depends on what the focus of the desk is, more quantitative/programming, or just a macro desk with a trader with a "global feeling"

Best Response
7/31/12

dude you are probably really young. But no matter what you do, do not just think of what offers the better deal based on hours and pay. Talk to people in both areas. Find out your interests. They will develop and change over time. I would rather be paid 10% of the hourly wage to do something I was interested in than make more money to do something I hated. Having had a taste of both, I can say that personally for me, banking is a much, much better fit. And when I was a sophomore in college all I cared about were hours and money. But hopefully you will realize with time that there is a lot more to it than that.

8/1/12

Totally agree, I know that trading is right for my personality after this summer internship but I was just wondering who makes more. I'm still sticking with trading even though I know that bankers make slightly more. I was more or less just curious.

"The code of competence is the only system of morality that's on a gold standard." - Francisco d'Anconia

12/12/12

questions has been asked and answered before

12/12/12

do what u enjoy and ull make the most money. HTH

Financial Modeling
8/2/12

So what would one expect to get as a 1st or 2nd year trader/trainee in a trading firm? Would the salary be different than at an ibank?

8/2/12
Kant:

So what would one expect to get as a 1st or 2nd year trader/trainee in a trading firm? Would the salary be different than at an ibank?

Some prop shops pay their trainees, some don't. Some have base + P&L some just have P&L (or some marginal base). But overall yes the salary will probably be different than at a BB.

12/12/12

60+10k sign on

8/2/12

The main difference lies in the potential upside where trading has the obvious edge. This has been discussed ad infinitum.

12/12/12

Typically, right on par with banking jobs. Generally better, but more stressful hours.

12/12/12

but what about the bonus? Really that performance based at analyst level?
is it slightly smaller or much smaller than IBD?

12/12/12

Structuring pays the same base as IBD or maybe a little less. However, the hours are MUCH more reasonable than IBD (despite earlier comments) Bonuses for first several years are half or less than half of IBD, however increase exponentially if performance is acceptable.

12/12/12

I have no idea why my messages keep appearing two messages up. I'm meaning to reply to I-banker2007, so please read above this and my previous error message for my question. Sorry about that.

Fandango

"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)

"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire a quelqu'un." - Samivel

"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)

"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire a quelqu'un." - Samivel

12/12/12

I-banker2007, are you referring to the hours mentioned in the thread about Equity Derivative Sales? I'm still getting opinions from people on message forums and in industry, and it seems pretty erratic. Some people say 60-65, and others 70-90. Maybe some people working in the field like to "scare" analysts into thinking the hours are worse. Or maybe they are checking whether I'd be willing to put in the hours, thinking I'll just be positively surprised if I "only" work 70 hours.

I've worked in IBD, and if the hours are MUCH more reasonable, I think that's answer enough for me.

Fandango

"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)

"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire a quelqu'un." - Samivel

"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)

"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire a quelqu'un." - Samivel

12/12/12

Error

"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)

"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire a quelqu'un." - Samivel

12/12/12

"However, the hours are MUCH more reasonable than IBD (despite earlier comments) Bonuses for first several years are half or less than half of IBD, however increase exponentially if performance is acceptable."

Right in the first part, completely wrong in the second. Analyst pay is banded.

You will likely work 10-12 hours a day, the bonuses are lockstep with ibanking.

12/12/12

I currently work in IBD and interned in structuring at two different banks. The comments above are mostly wrong. Hours for BB IBD are going to average 85-95 a week, depending on the Bank and the Group. Hours for structuring are going to range from 65-70 hours a week and are more regular. IBD bonuses paid this year (most firms pay analysts in June) ranged from 75-90K for first years in the "first bucket." I guarantee you that first year structuring jobs did not pay at the same level. While bonus are banded to a desk's overall performance, for first years they are in a very defined range. I believe it was 30-40K, depending on bank and product. Base salary for S&T and IBD is 55-60K, plus signing bonus.

If you do not work currently in IBD or structuring you really have no idea and your comments only confuse undergrads.

12/12/12

The thread is screwed up so I do not know where this will post, but fandango did you mean to say that you have worked in IBD and the hours were more reasonable (than structuring)? If you are talking about a BB IBD you are completely off, can't speak for MM or boutiques though.

12/12/12

thank you!
that means: 40k less than ibd in terms of total compensation?

anyone can tell me the situation on europe?

12/12/12

listen to jimbo! at least in europe i know for sure that analyst bonuses are quite similiar in ibd and S&T.

12/12/12

Certified User status for WallStreetOasis.com is coming soon and will be given only to users that have proven to be mature, provide accurate information and work in the specified industry in their profile. Hopefully that will give new users and anonymous browsers a better grasp of people who are talking from experience or speculating.

Thanks,
Patrick

12/12/12

I-banker2007. I hope this message shows up at the bottom of the thread. If it doesn't, I apologise.

I meant that I have worked in IBD (SA), and didn't stay there because I couldn't deal with the hours. I'm now considering offers from Eq Deriv Sales (London) or one of the Big 4. So, I meant that if the hours in Sales are MUCH more reasonable, then I would definitely happier there than I was in IBD.

Fandango

"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)

"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire a quelqu'un." - Samivel

"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)

"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire a quelqu'un." - Samivel

12/12/12

"If you do not work currently in IBD or structuring you really have no idea and your comments only confuse undergrads."

I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume the above is not directed at me.

There are different types of "structuring". Credit, Rate, FX, Commodity, other types.... the credit structurers I know can work quite longish (but not banking) hours, the others not nearly as bad.

Bonuses for s&t (which structuring is part of) is lockstep with ibanking. some YEARS are stronger than others, so if you work fulltime now, and you say you "interned" you probably have 2005 and 2006 as datapoints. 2005 1st yr analysts across products got paid in the 25-45 range, and the following year MUCH higher. So you can get lucky on working in a good year, or unlucky. in the early 2000's the 1st yr analyst buckets were 10-35k ish.

Jimbo

12/12/12

"So, I meant that if the hours in Sales are MUCH more reasonable, then I would definitely happier there than I was in IBD."

They are.

12/12/12

hours are much better in sales than IBD. In London exotic sales, you throw down 12-13 hour days, whereas IBD is 9-2 and weekends (for topbucket)

Anyway, bonuses are in step, but will take a hit across the board when level three gets exposed, that means many derivative products will come down as will M&A, so the numbers being thrown out now are sort of irrelevant.

12/12/12

I heard last year's 1st yr S&T analyst band was 60-75...Is this accurate??

12/12/12

is US total compensation actually higher or lower than europe?
ny chicago sf - london paris frankfurt

12/12/12

"I heard last year's 1st yr S&T analyst band was 60-75...Is this accurate??

"

sounds about right but dont hold your breath in 08

12/12/12
Jimbo:

"I heard last year's 1st yr S&T analyst band was 60-75...Is this accurate??

"

sounds about right but dont hold your breath in 08

such a bad year to graduate....

12/12/12

1st years starting July 08...will get 1st bonus in July 09....lets hope things get better by then....

12/12/12

"1st years starting July 08...will get 1st bonus in July 09....lets hope things get better by then....

"

it's all what you get used to. 25k, to a kid one year out of college with no real skills is pretty good.

12/12/12

It's a hell of a lot of money whether it's 25k or 65k. It's a bonus, and to be honest, the base salary itself is HUGE. Coming from a physics degree, others going into "industry" will be looking at 60% of my base (if I take this s&t offer) without any bonus. So, it's all relative. A bonus is a bonus....my bonus will be the extra time spent with my wife at home instead of in the office. It's the hours that worried me, not the pay.

Fandango

"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)

"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire a quelqu'un." - Samivel

"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)

"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire a quelqu'un." - Samivel

12/12/12

true true. im not complaining necessary about the pay, just saying its bad timing in terms of a weaker job market as well as the relatively lower bonus. of course, its still nothing to complain about

12/12/12

not complaining either..very happy to have a position

12/12/12

Structurers got owned from the credit fallout. Banks trimmed most structuring guys in anything related to credit but they'll be back in a few years.

12/12/12

i dont know why everyone seems to think bonuses are lower in s&T than ibd. first two years they are banded and based on what bucket you are in and does not have to do with how much your desk or group made.

also banking expect 75-90 hrs a week on average. S&T is generally 12 hrs/day as an analyst and no weekends

12/12/12

No weekends is music to my ears!

I'm not against working on weekends (a couple of hours), and even full days at the office on a weekend are alright if you know it's going to happen. But thinking you have a day off, and then being called into the office for 15 hours on a Sunday is not cool!

Fandango

"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)

"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire a quelqu'un." - Samivel

"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)

"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire a quelqu'un." - Samivel

8/2/12

Indeed it has. But it wasn't on the chart so I thought it would be nice to get it in this thread.

12/12/12

I'm not 100% sure what analysts start at these days, but base, signing bonus, and the first year's bonus should be identical across sales, structuring, trading, and banking at all banks.

12/12/12

correct..same as M&A

12/12/12

I don't think year-end bonus and all-in comp for first yr S&T analysts is equal, but I'm retty sure sign-on and base is though.

12/12/12
Alex_Kap:

I don't think year-end bonus and all-in comp for first yr S&T analysts is equal, but I'm retty sure sign-on and base is though.

It's the same. They evaluate you just the way they evaluate you in M&A in your first and second year in S&T. You have the top bucket, the middle bucket, and the bottom bucket. The bonuses are the exact same across the board.

And as everybody said: base is the same, and signing is the same.

The above is true for my bank, and a few of my other friend's banks. Although almost everybody in my class is doing M&A. My friends in structuring will be getting the same base and signing, I dunno about bonuses since I never really asked though.

But remember, everybody wants to do sales, and there are much fewer opportunities in sales than in other departments.
Also you are the first to get axed when your division is not doing particularly well (at least that is what I was told).

Remember, you will always be a salesman, no matter how fancy your title is.
- My ex girlfriend

12/12/12

^ I think its a little different in the states. s+t and ib analyst pay seem to be identical.

8/2/12

Everything boils down to your team -- if you are on a big book and smart guys -- essentially the smartest guys in the room (no pun intended) then you'll make a decent bonus. Work with smarter guys, ask questions, and add value.

12/12/12

I'm just curious, but what type of bank and office do you work in? BB? regional office? MM? and what did you get for bonus?

12/12/12

i work for biggest bank in southeast Asia, in their NY office. i got 100% of base for bonus. i think when i was hired, no one expected me to be able to become independent (non jr sales) so quickly. this is my first job (after undergrad), and in 1 year, i have a book of 35 clients (ranging from hedgies with high turnover, to large accounts like Fidelity). I know i dont pull in as much $ as the rest of the team (all with at least 20 years of sales experience and relationships with clients), but at the same time, i work definitely work a lot more than them. My justification for raise is that the responsibilities that I am accountable for now, warrants a more competitive salary. I mean, cmon, 1st year analysts gets a higher base than me for class of '07. and inflation in NYC since i was hired is 7%~

12/12/12

How much in sales credits did you put up last year?

12/12/12

i would say 15% of the desk's total sales credit. We have a desk of 5 brokers. Rest of the guys have 20+ years of experience.

but just to clarify, sales credit are not straightforward in my firm. its not like, if you bring in 1 million, you definitely get credited xx%.

I m really just looking for a ballpark of what most 2nd year salesppl get for equities~ any clue??

12/12/12

If you're a 2nd year analyst at any of the major IBs in sales you should be getting around a 70-75 salary (given that 1st years get 65 out of college). Your bonus could be anywhere given the market, but based on analysts I know maybe 60-90.

Are you on a cash equities desk or an equity derivatives desk? Although that shouldn't make a huge difference at such a junior level it could matter a decent amount. At my bank HR pretty much determined most pay for first-year analysts and associates, and then by 2nd-year the desk had a bigger role in what you got paid (but still heavily influenced by HR). That could help you in that if you argue well your desk at least has the ability to change your pay.

But that's only bonus. Your base should be the same across the bank (IBD, sales, trading, etc.).

12/12/12

numbers i heard used to put 1st years at 120-140 all in at least in the past couple years. but i don't have firsthand experience here so take it with a grain of salt

12/12/12

hours are irrelevant, people need to get their head around this.

in 2007, analysts came out around 110-120 all in in S&T. i suspect it will be a lower for the next few years, probably 80-90k all in for 1st years

12/12/12

hours mean nothing at at the level your talking about s&t bring more profit in. The MD's in banking bring in the profits not the guys on deal team. even someone with a minor role on a desk is going to bring in more profits then the same person in banking.

Keep in mind that not everyone in training programs in s&t end up trading.

12/12/12

interesting, why average bonuses for S&T lower than that of banking? someone plz shed some light on this

12/12/12

I was only refering to the lower levels like analyst and associate in my question. It makes sense for IBD analysts to get paid more than S&T analysts because neither group really "creates value" but IBD analysts work 50% more. For example, I am an S&T analyst and my goal is a 40k bonus, but my IBD friends have a goal of a 60k bonus (which I think they deserve because they are putting in 100+ hour weeks). But I could be missing something and be totally wrong.

12/12/12

s

12/12/12

The only reason I've seen for S&T analysts to get paid lower (and by lower i mean maybe 5k to 10k, which had put them in the Tier 2 analyst category in the past) is because it's harder for an MD in S&T to fight for top tier comp for analysts during bonus season. On a deal team, you have a lot more integration across all levels (MD/SVP/VP/Associate/Analyst) where everyone knows his/her roles and thus 'adds value' either by shmoozing the client, working on the model, or turning pitchbooks. As a first or second year analyst in S&T, you are doing a lot of support and not really trading your own account/have clients.

That being said, the tiers/bands for analysts are pretty much the same across the board in S&T and banking. From my experience, in the past, analysts in S&T were usually put in the 2nd tier category (in 2006, this was the difference between 90k and 85k).

Based on recent rumors/gossip, 1st year bonuses are probably more in the ballpark of a 20k-30k number. Not sure how the breakdown of tiers will pan out.

12/12/12

1st year bonus is 10-30. Most will get 10-20 or nothing. Shows over.

12/12/12

bump

12/12/12

Salaries are the same in NYC and regional offices. Not sure what you mean by IBD Research (do you mean equity research? generally not considered IBD). Starting salary for a first year analyst should be 70k with a 10k signing bonus. Can't comment specifically on bonuses but yeah both would be eligible for bonuses and should be about the same at the analyst level (unless you are talking about equity research, bonus might be slightly lower).

12/12/12

For SA positions it will be the same pay whether you are on a sales desk or a trading desk, usually pro-rated first year analyst salary (70k/year) and a housing stipend (think like 5k).

12/12/12

$70,000 base

12/12/12

NY is going to be 70, 80 and 90k for 1st, 2nd and 3rd years, respectively. Not sure on associate salaries.

Philly, I imagine, would be less, although I don't know that for a fact. Most places outside NYC pay less so that's my best guess.

12/12/12

How about the bonuses?

12/12/12

Above is correct, and you also will most likely get a $10k signing bonus on top of the $70k salary. This is pretty standard across all the BBs and most of the MMs, regardless of location. As far as year-end bonuses go, of course it depends... probably anywhere from 0-120% of your salary

12/12/12

A friend told me some BB's are prorating a 75k salary now for SA... if that means anything

12/12/12

Do you have access to glassdoor.com?

Doing a quick search there, it seems the average young sales trader is salaried at about 65-80k depending on the bank. Sorry I couldn't be of more assistance, I'm on the wrong side of the business.

"Dude, not trying to be a dick here, but your shop looks like a frontrunner for the cover of Better Boilerrooms & Chophouses or Bucketshop Quarterly."

-Uncle Eddie

12/12/12

you dont get to renegotiate your salary... they tell you what your pay will be and if you're in a structured program at a big bank its standard across levels.

12/12/12

Come on, we all know that's not true! I negotiated before being hired and would like toknow what someone who is junior, yes has a decent production for junior level (1.5M ytd), would be able to negotiate for their second year... Any ideas?

12/12/12

Bump

12/12/12

Sorry didn't mean to bump it twice. :)

12/12/12

Interested in this as well. In particular, if anyone knows comp levels for structurers on structured notes/rates desks, I'd really appreciate it.

-MBP

12/12/12

I had this conversation with a VP in StrucFin the other day. Not on a structuring desk, more like in a banking role within S&T (private side, corporate facing). A lot of analysts/associates lateral to a more traditional sales/trading role, go to business school, or go to IBD for M&A, CFA, or DCM. At least in his experience, no one from the group went to PE/VC/HF. I would assume derivative structurers can move to HFs much more easily, though. Sadly, I think that this is about the best anyone can do, seeing as this was at a BB with one of the top groups for it.

Interestingly, almost none of the senior bankers in that group have MBAs, and those that do did something completely different before b-school and joined as associates.

12/12/12

Thanks for the insight cubechimp! Just out curiosity, what would be a non derivatives structurer in your opinion? I though by definition of the role, all structurers work with derivatives while structuring their notes or rates. Still interested in hearing about comp if anyone has any numbers. I've heard that base pay is generally 20-30% higher but bonuses typically don't go above 100% for any level. Am I completely off with these numbers?

-MBP

12/12/12

use the search function

12/12/12

The same as last year 70+10

"Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, for knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA."

12/12/12

Is the 10k paid out as a bonus/taxed as such?

12/12/12
YGCS:

Is the 10k paid out as a bonus/taxed as such?

You will probably see ~$5,600 from that 10k sign on.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

12/12/12
Flake:
YGCS:

Is the 10k paid out as a bonus/taxed as such?

You will probably see ~$5,600 from that 10k sign on.

Damn is that really how its structured for you guys? All of our sign on/relo bonus numbers are post tax. (If you get a 10k sign on, thats exactly what you get.)

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

12/12/12
happypantsmcgee:
Flake:
YGCS:

Is the 10k paid out as a bonus/taxed as such?

You will probably see ~$5,600 from that 10k sign on.

Damn is that really how its structured for you guys? All of our sign on/relo bonus numbers are post tax. (If you get a 10k sign on, thats exactly what you get.)

If that's the case I want my fucking money. I did hear that some firms do that, I want to say Goldman but not sure. At my BB, the 10k was a pre-tax number.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

12/12/12

For once I feel good I'm not in U.S.

12/12/12

this is why we need a republican at the helm

12/12/12
kingmaker23:

this is why we need a republican at the helm

Not going to turn this into a political shitfest, but if you work in the city it doesn't matter who is POTUS because the place is run by commies. Expect to give a lot back to your friends in Section 8 housing.

Expect 70 + 10, bonus buckets are different at each bank so don't worry about that. All those numbers are pre-tax.

12/12/12

And for London ?

12/12/12

Trading at a BB is for people who get rejected from prop shops. The standard starting salary+signing bonus for prop shops is SIGNIFICANTLY higher. Fuck voting for republicans, just work harder and land a gig at a prop shop, and stay a democrat?

12/12/12
7toaster:

Trading at a BB is for people who get rejected from prop shops. The standard starting salary+signing bonus for prop shops is SIGNIFICANTLY higher. Fuck voting for republicans, just work harder and land a gig at a prop shop, and stay a democrat?

So are you a freshman in college or high school?

12/12/12

Me? Recent grad from a "target school," just started working at a prop shop. Making a 6 figures in my salary + signing bonus package.

Bottom line: If you wanna be a conformist fratty republican, go work at a BB bank. If you wanna take home more AFTER TAX than the Justin BBers make before tax, do the right thing : work at a prop shop and vote democrat.

12/12/12
7toaster:

Me? Recent grad from a "target school," just started working at a prop shop. Making a 6 figures in my salary + signing bonus package.

Bottom line: If you wanna be a conformist fratty republican, go work at a BB bank. If you wanna take home more AFTER TAX than the Justin BBers make before tax, do the right thing : work at a prop shop and vote democrat.

You're my hero.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

12/12/12
7toaster:

Me? Recent grad from a "target school," just started working at a prop shop. Making a 6 figures in my salary + signing bonus package.

Bottom line: If you wanna be a conformist fratty republican, go work at a BB bank. If you wanna take home more AFTER TAX than the Justin BBers make before tax, do the right thing : work at a prop shop and vote democrat.

Given your wealth of experience trading I really value your opinion!

12/12/12
hellokitty123:
7toaster:

Me? Recent grad from a "target school," just started working at a prop shop. Making a 6 figures in my salary + signing bonus package.

Bottom line: If you wanna be a conformist fratty republican, go work at a BB bank. If you wanna take home more AFTER TAX than the Justin BBers make before tax, do the right thing : work at a prop shop and vote democrat.

Given your wealth of experience trading I really value your opinion!

QQ moar pl0x.

Actually, the markets need more noob feeders. Please be my guest and go right ahead and join a BB, and be a BSD and trade some size! And then watch in horror while you feed, and my automated super-fast HFT algorithms outsmart and outspeed you and take all your monies.

12/12/12
7toaster:
hellokitty123:
7toaster:

Me? Recent grad from a "target school," just started working at a prop shop. Making a 6 figures in my salary + signing bonus package.

Bottom line: If you wanna be a conformist fratty republican, go work at a BB bank. If you wanna take home more AFTER TAX than the Justin BBers make before tax, do the right thing : work at a prop shop and vote democrat.

Given your wealth of experience trading I really value your opinion!

QQ moar pl0x.

Actually, the markets need more noob feeders. Please be my guest and go right ahead and join a BB, and be a BSD and trade some size! And then watch in horror while you feed, and my automated super-fast HFT algorithms outsmart and outspeed you and take all your monies.

Good luck doing this in EM credit when 1/3 of the names trade two or three times a week
we had a bond with a 65/85 market....and we crossed it in size---good luck doing that with ur algo

IVY for Life

12/12/12
7toaster:
hellokitty123:
7toaster:

Me? Recent grad from a "target school," just started working at a prop shop. Making a 6 figures in my salary + signing bonus package.

Bottom line: If you wanna be a conformist fratty republican, go work at a BB bank. If you wanna take home more AFTER TAX than the Justin BBers make before tax, do the right thing : work at a prop shop and vote democrat.

Given your wealth of experience trading I really value your opinion!

QQ moar pl0x.

Actually, the markets need more noob feeders. Please be my guest and go right ahead and join a BB, and be a BSD and trade some size! And then watch in horror while you feed, and my automated super-fast