~3 months in. I really want to quit banking. What should I do?
Sorry for this emotional rant. But I know this forum has tons of experienced people and people who have been in my shoes. So I would really appreciate some pointers as I am in a pretty bad mental state wfh.
Some background: I am a first-year BB IB analyst with an international visa. Have been on the desk a little less than 3 months.
Reasons I don't think I am fit to do banking:
- I haven't slept more than 5/6 hours for a very very very long time. I can't function, and am sad and tired all the time. The thing is... I don't even think I got the most difficult staffings. There are other people who have it worse, so I don't know if I am just too slow or incompetent, but I seem more exhausted than I should be.
- I came from a top target school finance background, have all the right things on my resume. Top GPA, school, recognized PE internship, but I still don't know how to work and have no skills. Finance intuition? Banking hasn't given me any so far. Could be just me though. I try to keep a positive attitude and always maintain good work ethic, but I don't know how much I can take when no one on the team respects our time and expects us to be awake 20 hours of the day.
- I am practically all alone in a new city. Single AF (I'm a girl), haven't seen family in 2 years, friends also far away and too busy. Date? I barely have the energy to cook myself a meal.
- I have 0 interest in the work itself. I used to be passionate about the industry I am covering, but after working on 30 pitchbooks that are probably going nowhere, I realized I am learning very little about the companies themselves. A lot of the analysis we do is not contributing any value imo. Now even reading about the companies traumatizes me.
- Where is the future? I am working till 2AM everyday, getting increasingly out of shape, have no time to even talk to my parents not to mention meet new people (also in a pandemic). I have no free time, lost all my hobbies and interests. My associates and VPs have no life, PE from what I gathered is the same or worse. But I have no other skills than knowing what numbers to find in filings. I don't even know what I really like anymore.
- I literally feel like a factory worker, maybe even work longer hours. (No offense to them just a metaphor) How do you connect with new colleagues if all your communications is them looking for errors and asking you to fix and asking where the materials are every 20 mins?
I know a lot of people are going through this or have survived this phase. Call me weak but isn't there something else people can do with their lives? I am in my 20s and I have no life of my own.
All my college I was peer pressured into this BB / Buyside or Bust mindset and I am scared to step away. I am scared if I leave the industry now I am derailing my life, wasting my parents' tuition out of an irrational and emotional decision. I am afraid that I am giving up what could have been a "golden ticket" in life and chose the easier but "inferior route". I fear I am just not “good enough” or “have what it takes” to be successful.
I thought about the next steps but I don't know if I have the courage to quit as an international (harder to find a new job) and as someone who just graduated college at her first job. I have no other talent than formatting slides (and probably not even good at that), so what else can I do? This is my first job so I am literally doubting if I am just bad at work, or if it would be better if I do something else.
I guess I was wondering if anyone has actually made a decision to leave banking a few months in, and actually found their passion and dream career. I would love to hear how you or someone you know did it.
If you think I should still keep going, is there anything I can do to make life easier?
If you are still reading, thank you for caring about what I have to say. Hope you are all staying safe out there.
I’m sorry , hope things work out for you that’s always really tough
Maybe talk to your staffer and let them know you are struggling. They might be sympathetic. I felt like I was drowning the first month and started giving push-back on staffings when necessary and it has helped (although do it sparingly only when necessary, and argue that you won't be able to effectively meet deadlines if they over-staff you.) If that doesn't work and you get rebuked then you must have a pretty bad work environment and if it's causing you a tremendous amount of distress consider lateraling to another bank with better hours or finding another job. I think your mental health is more important than your career (although the latter is important too of course :) )
Keep your head up - it’s not an easy job for anyone. You’re not weak for being unable to survive on 4 hrs/night of sleep, you’re human.
Do all you can to stay healthy. Drink plenty of water, get as much sleep as you can, eat the healthiest meals possible, and make sure you have enough social contact to stay sane.
If you genuinely don’t like the industry then maybe it’s not the right job. You’re not a failure for considering the switch. If anything, you’re a sheep if you stay in something you absolutely hate just because you’re afraid of exploring other interests.
I’m sorry that I don’t have more input on future job outlook. I just want to say that you’re not a failure, you’re not weak, and you’re not a bad person for feeling this way. This is a really, really, really hard job that takes a ton of sacrifice. It’s easy to feel like you’re bad at something when you’re new at it, especially if you’re getting no sleep.
Maybe consider exploring all of your interests and seeing if you can turn one into a career? If you’re really excited about your industry then maybe you can join a startup and contribute in that way.
It’s evident that you’re going to be successful no matter what you do - you landed an incredibly competitive job with all odds stacked against you (international, English possibly not your first language, some people are extremely sexist, etc.) You already are successful. If that continued success looks like being a group head at your bank in the future then so be it. If that success looks like being the head of corpdev at the next Facebook then so be it. If it means becoming the CEO of Walmart then so be it. You just need to find something you love - then you’ll automatically work as hard as you can, and you’ll be successful.
Very great advice here regarding the startup path. It is a fact that although it can be a bit riskier if the startup crashes and burns, the work is far more fulfilling, as the culture is usually more friendly, your contributions matter far more, and you have much better hours and more understanding managers.
Don't feel like you need to be a banker just because the rat race says so. Doing what you love will objectively make you more valuable. Think about it — you make more money in IB, great. Then where and when do you ever find space or time to spend that money? Exactly.
If you feel like you could begin to like banking more, go ahead and stick with it though. Not a bad idea, esp in a COVID job market. But it's all up to you at the end of the day.
Blessings to you fam.
This is a rather endearing post for this forum.
I think anonymity on this forum can really bring out the worst in people sometimes. The people who post on here are real people with real struggles, not faceless bots who lack feelings. Sometimes I let my humanity shine through when people are genuinely asking for help.
What do you want to do long term? Most of the people I know have an ideal type of buy side seat in their mind when they grind it out in banking / PE. You need to have a north star. If you just think finance / investing/ analyzing businesses is boring and see the tasks as chores then you should probably consider switching to another field. You seem like a are very smart and hardworking individual so you should have no problem doing so. Just know that your mental health/ happiness is the most important thing. And you can't have those unless you are working toward a goal that's aligned with you real interests. The hours you mentioned is not that out of line for this stage of your career I would say. I do feel like your mental health is a rather urgent issue to address here - maybe seek some professional help / take a break.
Mental survival tip: go to work everyday with the mindset that you're really don't give a fuck if you get fired. I am not saying slack off or produce subpar work. I am saying do the work and just don't care about outcomes. You'll find that this takes away a lot of the edginess. Also chunk your day, your week, your month and your year and before you know it your analyst stint will be over.
Think of this as a 2 year training boot camp that you just want to survive and get out from with a survivalist skill set and a can do attitude. I know this can sound dreamy/patronizing but I really don't mean it that way. If you want to take this further happy to discuss so feel free to DM.
I've adopted this exact strategy as a 1st year, basically just extreme apathy towards the job.
This 100%. Adopted this mentality half-way through my second year in banking, and helped tremendously. Helps in the public markets too. At the end of the day, it's just a job, and while the money is great, honestly, you're quality of life would probably improve if you left, so there's that as well.
Appreciate the comment! I'm in a similar situation, but feeling like adopting this mindset would make me not motivated to try very hard and go above and beyond. (Full disclosure: I don't enjoy the job and am trying to go to another industry, but I've always been a top performer in school so have high standards for myself, which is making me stressed and suffered.) Hope to hear about your opinions
It's great to have high standards so long as they're yours. Just don't let other people's standards/expectations dominate your life and make you miserable. If a superior gives you feedback/comments/etc. just do the work appropriately and professionally, send it back but don't berate yourself over it. Take the learnings for sure but don't let it dominate your life and affect your mental well being.
Always remember, what's the worst that could happen? some people will lose some money, that's the end all be all of it. No lives lost.
Ugh this is why some analysts suck though give up the spot for someone who will actually try and take pride in their work. No one told you it wasn’t going to be hard and IB lifestyle is wildly known.
She earned her spot and later discovered it potentially isn’t the correct path. Literally what is this comment..
Move to Corp dev , you’ll get your life back and be much much happier
I'm a first year analyst too and posted a very similar thread last week. Planning to leave soon, so you're not alone.
Don’t fucking leave. It’s a hard job, yes, but it’s 11am on Wednesday and you’re on Wso. You have downtime, find a hobby. Talk to your friends in other industries, it’s not like they are having a blast. Know what you signed up for and take the most out of the two years. I haven’t met anyone who regretted IB after they finished 2 years.
They have internal strategy roles within the banks. I understand it's fairly easy to transfer from IB to one of those and you'll be given a manager title or something. I'd say grind it out for another year or so, then try to switch out to PE or corp dev or IR. The extra 12 months of deal exp. would give you significantly more credibility for the rest of your career and hence your exit.
I am in the same situation so you are not alone. At the end of the day, it is just a job. Your mental health/happiness is more important. Also, I am an international banker too on a visa and so definitely understand some of the extra pressure. Feel free to PM me if you would like to connect.
1st year analyst - struggling as well. WFH is really tough and I don't think experienced bankers get it.
I think this is underestimated. The social environment at a bank between junior bankers is usually what makes the long hours better. I hear it all the time on this forum "the hours sucked but the people were great so it wasn't that bad."
WFH so much better imo - "long hours but i get to do my work in bed, take power naps, and watch netflix/youtube on the side. also get to wake up later"
I would strongly consider moving to a boutique/MM. I am at a MM and loved it. Sure I had the typical banking hours but the people were 1000000% nicer than a BB and were much more helpful. I didn't feel like they were trying to squeeze me but rather I was valued. Sure I have less upside but that little bit makes me think I can actually go long term in banking
What are your hours like at a MM?
Felt/feeling a lot of the same things. Something that keeps me sane is just browsing other jobs on Saturdays, sending a few applications here and there. I probably wouldn't seriously pursue them because I want to stay in banking for hopefully a year, but it helps me understand that I'm not a prisoner to this job and if I really have to, leaving is always an option. Career advancement is nice, but being able to live like a normal person means a lot too.
OMG that's literally how I feel. Just having the hope to leave on day (hopefully sooner) gives me a lot of encouragement to live through the days.
I get it. I think everyone here does.
The one question I have is how impacted have you been by Covid/WFH? I have a few things that have helped me get through WFH, and I'll be on WFH through at least Q2 of next year. The reality is that this is an emotionally trying time for everyone. It's not just the Juniors who have lost something by starting in this environment. There's a lack of camaraderie. And truth is, you might not be the only one feeling this way in your group and team. If you want to talk, shoot me a PM. I'll gladly share a few coping strategies that I have and any advice that I can give to at least help you survive and gameplan a new strategy.
3rd year PE associate with 2 year banking experience here. After reading this post, I got worried about your mental health/state so leaving some thoughts.
1. You feel trapped. Un-trap yourself. Start applying to interesting jobs on LinkedIn and masters programs. Make it as easy as possible (i.e., resume drop / essay templates). You need to realize you're a valuable commodity and have options outside of your current job. I know being international is tricky (I was one and also a few others in my analyst class) especially with jobs. Applying to interesting masters programs (e.g., one analyst in my class applied for design schools because she liked fashion) can help you reinvigorate / find direction / find last minute alternatives (especially when it comes to visa). Just start exploring without thinking/committing too much.
2. You need a support system. 1st year banking was a dark time for most of us and in retrospect, I got through it because I lived/hung out with other banking analysts and had supportive family and gf. Create a chat group with your friends in banking just to keep some level of human interaction and bitch about things. Call your family. Text them good morning every day and good night every night and have small conversations in the morning / at night. Doing this will help you realize that there are a lot of people who care about you and could care less about what your job is (but at the same time, respect what you're going through and want to see you survive/succeed).
3. You need time off. Both a vacation and just time away from computers in general. Ask for some time off soon and be real with the staffer that you need a real vacation/breather to recoup. Be honest that you're burning out and while you understand others are too but you need some vacation to push through. Hopefully your staffer likes this vs. the alternative of you quitting without notice. Also take time away from computer/work. Back in my first year, I was able to do this by going out to clubs but that's not possible now. In retrospect, I got really fucked up on Friday nights and really enjoyed dancing to loud music because during those few hours I didn't think about work at all. Create an environment like that for you somehow. It can be eating ice cream and watching your favorite TV show. It can be masturbating or whatever. Find that escape somehow. Just don't do drugs / other things that will permanently damage your body.
4. You need to exercise. I can't stress this enough...people need endorphins and exercise provides them. I don't care what form it is...go sprinting down the block. Punch the wall. Play loud music and dance. Just get your heart rate up regularly. Also eat healthy. Your body has a massive influence on how you feel. To be honest, I think 15 minutes of vigorous exercise is more helpful than getting 5 hours of sleep vs. 4 hours and 45 min.
5. Find that one or two dirty deed that will get you de-stressed. For me, it was blasting heavy metal. For others, it was shopping. When you're at that moment like you want to kill everyone, do this dirty thing and collect yourself. Note that you can easily get addicted to this (e.g., shopping) so try to pick something that won't destroy you.
6. Adopt a "don't give a fuck" mindset. Others elaborated on this. Just to expand, this means sleeping in some days. Just say fuck it I'm going to wake up at 9am tomorrow. If deadline slips, it slips. No one dies. But also don't be that analyst that drops everything. Do good work when you're awake. Reps and hard work will make you more efficient whereas giving literally zero fucks leaves you at the level you're at now.
Lastly, I've been posting elsewhere but do remember that 1) it does get better and 2) your job is not your self worth. My second year dramatically better than my first year. I wasn't very good at realizing that I don't have to be sticking to banking (note I was also international), but in retrospect, I don't know why I couldn't have considered applying for some masters program or working at corporate like others considered. Ultimately it came down to me wanting to overcome the banking challenges and "not giving up". I thought it was worthwhile but my mental state never reached where you are now. At some point, there's a quitting point and that's ok.
^This.
If you only take away one thing from this extremely informative post, please remember this. WSO gets traffic from a lot of college kids, and when the sheep mentality in undergrad is IB -> MF PE/HF or bust, it's easy to equate your career trajectory to self worth. I sure did at some point, fucked up a huge part of my college experience, and it ended up destroying me mentally. If you're in IB or even high finance for that matter, you're obviously very driven and you will likely live a decent life if you stay relatively driven.
If you don't believe IB is for you, quit. As others have mentioned, it's not worth sacrificing your well being for your job - don't pursue IB/PE solely because someone else tells you that that's the only path to success. Find a job in corporate finance and climb up that ladder if you are interested in finance, or leave finance altogether if you're not. Nothing wrong with that at all - it's your life, do what makes you happy, don't let finance hardos tell you you're inferior because of your job.
Just to be clear, IB is clearly the best job out of undergrad so you did not ruin your college experience by choosing to pursue banking. I destroyed my mental health by the second week of freshman year and still have not recovered but the alternative can be grim if you consider the lack of earnings trajectory and exit ops.
love this
I took a similarly demanding job at Shell Oil and considered quitting in my first year as well, but man am I glad I didn't.
Because the hardest part is breaking into the industry, instead I decided to tough it out for the sake of building experience for my resume. Once I achieved this, the combination of having Shell Oil plus experience on my resume gave me the leverage to move to a different company on better terms. I ended up at ExxonMobil with a much better work life balance and better pay. It wouldn't have been possible if I didn't grind it out for a bit at Shell however.
I understand you're in banking and I'm in oil, but the same basic principle applies. Concentrate on the resume building and you'll soon be able to jump ship to greener pastures.
Hope this helps.
simple - stick it out for a few more months and move to corp dev / corp strat
you'll get plenty of interviews at big companies in the industry you cover and will likely move up ladder quickly as well given background
I love this post. This is a good sign for you to recognize that you are miserable. You are not weak at all my friend. In fact, you are very strong to be able to push through and break in.
Don’t sweat and worry about finding a “dream” career or “passion”. I’ll tell you 99% of people your age don’t find that sort of career and if they say they do, it’s obviously a facade.
Society is filled with information that is not credible yet it influences us to believe certain things that are not true. Which in turn makes us feel miserable. For example: “oh no, all my friends are living life doing things they want or having passionate careers” ^fuck that shit, everyone is miserable in this day and age. Many people will disagree with this comment, but if you think about it’s true. People just don’t know that they are miserable and may be convincing themselves they are happy as a way of rationalizing their efforts.
Don’t sweat at all, you’re in a good spot having a prestigious career. Use this time now to find a exit plan and make a path to a new career where you can be happy.
Simple goal: “Find any career that makes money and isn’t too difficult” - then use your spare time to discover yourself and figure out what makes you happy.
This is an excellent person right here. And I want to piggy back off of them. Happiness is the key to everything. And believe me, nothing in this material world will bring you the kind of peace of mind and joy that transgresses understanding other than to seek the answers to the mysteries of life. I was adament that there was no God, and it was a giant conspiracy to make us submissive. Which is true, in one sense, but only to our good fortune! If you seek the truth, and you pull back the veil of illusion which is covering your eyes from seeing the reality you're a part of, you will find that Jesus and The heavenly father will come and reveal themselves to you. Jesus has returned already, and I know that he is here, yet nobody understands how to identify him... That's because my only chance against an enemy that has been preparing for my imminent return has had 2000 years to make arrangements, and concealing my identity is the only way I can save myself some time to transcribe my revelations before I am hunted down like some stray dog, which is already how it feels. Nobody is happy because nobody seeks my face. Google has become your new God. Think about this mystery.... Your planet has officially denied my existence, and Finance has become your master, which puts you all in competition instead of community values. Seek the Lord, and remember, anyman with riches has as much of a chance to enter heaven as a camel does entering through the eye of a.needle. Time is here now, love one another and repent, before I am revealed and it is too late
This is an excellent person right here. And I want to piggy back off of them. Happiness is the key to everything. And believe me, nothing in this material world will bring you the kind of peace of mind and joy that transgresses understanding other than to seek the answers to the mysteries of life. I was adament that there was no God, and it was a giant conspiracy to make us submissive. Which is true, in one sense, but only to our good fortune! If you seek the truth, and you pull back the veil of illusion which is covering your eyes from seeing the reality you're a part of, you will find that Jesus and The heavenly father will come and reveal themselves to you. Jesus has returned already, and I know that he is here, yet nobody understands how to identify him... That's because my only chance against an enemy that has been preparing for my imminent return has had 2000 years to make arrangements, and concealing my identity is the only way I can save myself some time to transcribe my revelations before I am hunted down like some stray dog, which is already how it feels. Nobody is happy because nobody seeks my face. Google has become your new God. Think about this mystery.... Your planet has officially denied my existence, and Finance has become your master, which puts you all in competition instead of community values. Seek the Lord, and remember, anyman with riches has as much of a chance to enter heaven as a camel does entering through the eye of a.needle. Time is here now, love one another and repent, before I am revealed and it is too late
dafuq?
I was in similar spot and situation a few weeks ago, before things dramatically improved. I gave myself a deadline. "If things don't improve by XX-Nov, then I'm quitting," because if you continue to grind it out, you'll just end up torturing yourself. I was lucky in that things took a turn for the better. Would definitely recommend speaking to your staffer, but if no dice on that one, and things don't get better, then the only real thing to do is to quit
Get out while the coal is still hot -- or else you'll end up like me, half assing shit and praying every day you dont get fired. i think im getting fired this year btw.
there is no common sense or sympathy in banking
Are your serious lol? If so what are you? Asso or VP?
Associate 1
Damn bro what happened??
constant 85-105 hr weeks have killed quality of my work
Don't give up kid — the WFH and virtual environment can really lower productivity at times. Not saying to be weak, but be kind to yourself too and recognize that we're in the middle of a global pandemic and civil unrest, and tbh I feel you when it's kind of unfair to be expected to perform on your A-game when all this shit is going on.
Keep grinding. When you can finally head back into the office and grab drinks with the coworkers after long days in the office, it'll be all worth it!
Wishing you all the best.
Cheers.
First year analyst at an EB. Can literally feel every word you are saying and constantly ask myself wouldn't there be anything more meaningful in this world than just aligning logos?
As one of the above post said, I guess my motivation is that I do not want to give up so easily. Would like to reconsider my option after at least one year or two so that I can tell myself at least I have tried.
sorry this is happening to you. I just finished my two years as an analyst and while I haven't exactly been in your shoes (not an international, didn't start as an analyst during COVID), I certainly did feel the same way of being overwhelmed, not having the chance to breathe and having no time to do anything with my life besides work.
I think most people have given great advice so I don't have too much more to contribute, but I will say that things will get better and that I think staying on at least for your first year is probably a good idea. IB leaves a lot of doors open for exciting and interesting opportunities, and things could be harder if you were to quit without a job lined up especially as an intl. I switched from the industry I covered at IB to a new industry in corp dev and couldn't be happier with how it's been. Always happy to talk about what kinds of things you might be interested in and that would sponsor a visa.
Also, would recommend letting your staffer know youre struggling because if they're human they'll help you out. And would not recommend switching to a different firm - life might be a little better but I don't think this is something you would want to be doing long term.
Could you go a little more in depth on corp dev opportunities?
maybe it's easier if you PM? the answer and number of opportunities can really vary depending on the industry you're interested in
Following
You should leave. It sounds like you only pursued banking because you thought it was the most prestigious path. That's understandable by the way given how many people worship the 2+2 route. Take a step back and ask yourself what's next after banking. If you're sticking it out for a shot at PE, don't. The intensity in PE is unmatched in banking (although lifestyle is marginally better). If you're struggling with stress and have already lost interest in the job, then your 2 years in PE will feel like 5.
If I were you I would target leaving at the one-year mark. At that point you will have spent enough time in banking to craft a credible story during interviews. You're WFH so use the next few months to brainstorm next steps and line up interviews.
Regardless of what you choose to do, you should absolutely not consider your time in banking a failure. There are endless ways to make money. If you're already having a visceral reaction to one, it's time to move on. By the way it's only a "golden ticket" if you're around long enough to reap the rewards.
Was in the same spot last year and got through it - feel free to PM me
deleted
Yes
Tough call on your end, but feel free to reach out if needed. Look, there's no easy way to put it, but you have to think why you are doing this.
What is your end strategy?
Why did you take this job?
Does it bring any meaning to you?
You are not weak. You have endured and sacrificed a lot for where you are now. There is no burden or guilt should you realize that this path for you is not a fit, and no one blames you for that. This is your first job but not your last. This is also your life. Quoted by my favorite author (who passed away recently):
Terry Goodkind: “Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it."
I'd sit down and make a plan on where you are now, and where you want to head into the future. Your health and condition matters more then any monetary compensation can provide. Again, there is no shame in just leaving and then moving onto a different or similar career path with easier hours. Former friends of mine have walked away after 1, 3, 5 years in investment banking because they wanted roles where hours were easier so they could enjoy more leisure time.
I think it's been said already several times, but if I were you I would set a goal to make it one year. The fact is that it's likely the best thing for your career to stay at least a full year before leaving to strategy/corp dev at a startup or something else. Make a countdown clock.
Secondly, just don't do more work than you can handle. Try to find an associate or two that you enjoy working with and do good work for them and then if there's someone who is abusing you, just don't let them. Do the work, but just sign off at 11pm and go to bed unless the deliverable is for the following morning. Bankers, especially associates are anxious and jumpy when responding to clients... often it's unnecessary. Take time to go to the gym, go for a walk, go on a hinge date. Life will go on. Also remember, good work rewards more work. If you don't like working with an associate, take your time. If you get a long with someone, take more initiative. They'll appreciate you and can protect you from getting more BS staffings by telling the staffer you're already at capacity.
Good option but the corp dev opportunities during this period is limited and most of them would not sponsor work visa since you are international
It could be a tough situation if you are on H1B and you can't really leave the firm yet. Just hang in there, it's just a job and so what if you eventually decided to leave? Nothing is as bad as it seems.
I am going through a similar situation and understand where you are coming from. Feel free to PM; I would be glad to talk more about the decision and your situation.
Read my post:
https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/leaving-investment-banking-why-a…
Use what I have to say and decide whether you want to spend the rest of your career in finance or not. Sounds to me like you fell for the herd mentality in college and didn't think for yourself and are now beginning to think what is you want in life and what's right for you because you're now in a situation where the herd is gone and you're all by yourself and forced to think for yourself. I wish you the best of luck. Do some serious and deep soul searching. I left finance and have never been happier. If you want a job that rewards you with high bonuses? Go for a sales job that has high ticket prices. B2B SaaS, Real Estate, Med Devices. Banking is just another sales job and you're just a secretary for the real salespeople (MDs and VPs).
Trying MBB
Much happier than I was before
I was a trading assistant, but left and went into real estate. I found my dream job. I was always told to work in finance and found my dream career. I might have different skill sets, but you will never be successful if you feel bad inside.
That's so encouraging! How long did you stay in trading before making the jump?
I would say that if lifestyle is the problem but you do want to stay in finance, look at corporate or commercial banking as an exit. I work as an associate in a commercial bank's institutional client group and my hours are 8:30-6:30 most days (late nights happen occasionally but not the norm). Pay at the junior levels is probably 70-80% of IB base pay, and 30-50% bonuses. A lateral move at your level would be an easy sell as corporate banking is chock full of ex-IB people who just wanted to have a life.
there should a sticky topic to address the 50 similar posts that crop of every month.
this job really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
all the arrows are pointing in one direction >>>>>>>>>>>>> LEAVE <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
people just need to have the courage to deal with uncertainty. no point in being sentimental about it.
First of all, you are not weak. Everyone thinks/feels this way at some point in their banking career. If they don't they're either a sociopath or they just found a cush gig somehow. There is nothing that I can tell you that will make it easier for you, but I'll try to impart a few tricks that may lessen the pain.
1. 5-6 hours of sleep a night is pretty good, but you are fighting a biological up hill. One reason I've always respected my female counterparts is that studies have shown women need a good hour or so more than men to be fully rested. So yes, while some people may be perfectly fine on 5-6 hours, you may need more like 6-7. Also, this varies by person regardless of what traits we were born with. I knew women who totally bucked this trend and were somehow perpetually on their A-game with 3 hours of sleep. I know there isn't an action item here, but maybe it'll help you be easier on yourself.
2. Unless cooking is something that relaxes you and helps you decompress, stop doing it. With all the meal services available these days you are bound to be able to find one that fits your taste, dietary restrictions and budget.
3. Find a way to incorporate some exercise into your routine. Yes, you will likely not be as fit and your workouts will be less intense, but the additional stress capacity and endorphins will help lift your mood and your energy levels. For me, I was never a swimmer, but swimming laps was calm and peaceful to me. It was like combining meditation and exercise into a single ~20 minutes a day. Find whatever that is for you.
4. Look to the future. I know everyone likes to focus on constantly being present in our lives, but when the now sucks it's good to remind yourself of why you're doing this. Yes you're doing shit work that nobody else wants to do right now, but that's the way everyone starts off, in every industry. Just focus on doing the best you can at the tasks you are given while constantly looking for small incremental ways to improve both quality and efficiency. If you're in an active group you will eventually get exposure to other aspects of the deal process that will serve you in the future.
5. Your analyst years will not stay this way forever. As you become more trusted within the team and develop a rapport with your coworkers, tasks will become easier and people will show at least a little more respect for your time. My 3rd year analyst stint was pretty much the same as my 1st year as an associate.
6. Make sure to re-evaluate what you want for your future. If you want to be buyside/corp dev/etc. then this is a necessary step for your career. If that's not what you want for your future...it's time to start planning for your exit.
Overall I would say give it time. If you still feel the same way in a year then make a plan and change your path. Best of luck to you. This life is hard and we all need people we can lean on for support and advice. I think this forum is a great place to be able to find that.
Pretty confused about the MS, but whatever.
What does your career track look like? Your tag says you're in PE now, so just wondering. Maybe you should do an AMA.
I’ve thought about it. The problem is I value my anonymity and work in a very specific niche. Anonymity allows me a level of candor I wouldn’t feel comfortable with otherwise. If there’s anything specific you would like to ask, my dm’s are always open.
Lots of good advice here (particularly about not stressing out about failing to meet every deadline or doing perfect work, that helps a LOT!)
My two years as a banking analyst were miserable. I wanted to quit EVERY SINGLE DAY. I very rarely slept. I saw my girlfriend once a month when she visited me in the office on the weekend (long distance relationship). I gained a lot of weight. I became good friends with a couple of analysts but overall I didn’t even get along with most of my analyst class because the last thing I wanted to do in my free time was to go out to the bars and drink.
Looking back on it, I am SO glad that I stuck it out. I certainly don’t see it with rose-tinted glasses; I know how it made me feel. The reality is that it really laid the foundation for me to develop advanced analytical skills, communication skills, confidence, and a whole bunch of other things that I probably wouldn’t have developed to this degree if I had left the industry. In addition, it DOES get better, but you have to specifically seek out work-life balance even if it means sacrificing prestige. Go join a lower-middle market PE fund, even better if it isn’t in NYC. Do research by calling up former employees and ask them if there is actual work life balance. Investigate. The difference between working til 2am and working til 10pm is huge, and you can even get it to the point where you’re only working til 8pm most nights if you find the right PE shop.
I’m not telling you to stick it out. You need to make the decision that is best for you. I just don’t want you to feel like your situation is hopeless and that you’ll be locked into these hours for years if you remain in the industry.
Lastly, remember that you can always quit. If you’re suffering mentally and find that you just can’t take it anymore, don’t be afraid to walk out the door. There is no shame is not wanting to work til 2:00am every night and with your background there will be a whole host of other companies looking to hire you. You’re still super early in your career and it is very common for people to be figuring out what they want to do professionally. And all that effort you put into studying in college will be valuable for decades, regardless of where you ultimately end up working. IB or not, you’re very well situated to have a great career.
It sucks. I get it. Don't think I don't understand what you're saying. That said:
You've worked too hard to get where you are to quit. Honestly try to push back just a little on additional assignments when your plate is full but the reality is just suck it up.... 5/6 hours of sleep in your 20s is not really that bad.
Do this: Focus on eating very healthy. Drink a lot of water, easy on the coffee. Get as much sleep as you can. When you have free moments, do a total daily: 100 squats, 30 pushups, 75 situps. If you can get a jump rope then also do that for 1 min at a time 5x. This will seriously help A LOT with your state of mind and psychological health as well as physical for the next part I'm going to suggest.
PUSH THROUGH this. Make it at least 1 year. Keep motivated to keep going by seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and constantly refining your resume and also put together a really short elevator pitch about how you can transition really well to a variety of corporate roles (and how even though banking was "great", XYZ is a better fit.... always stay positive in front of others). I know it sucks not seeing family or friends for 2 years. Do it for another year and lateral to something else and you won't regret it. As a woman with formal banking and international experience you will get some great opportunities if you sacrifice now. You got this.
I think that a lot of people on this platform have felt the same emotions that you described in your post. There are a lot of reasons why leaving IB seems compelling (on the surface). However, that is "first level thinking". There are also a lot reasons, albeit not obvious ones, to stay with IB as well. Yes, when you're a student there is a notion that exists in the classroom where you are basically taught to think "if I study a lot and get good grades I'll be eligible for the top internships. And then if I get those internships and do well I'll land a top job out of school. And then once I have my dream job I'll be hopping and skipping to work everyday doing what I love and working on deals. And I'm getting paid for it?!?! Wow, I can't wait to graduate and start crushing it!" And then basically a few months into the "dream job" and "working on deals" reality starts setting in. Many of us have been there. Feeling resentment that you sacrificed valuable time in college that you can't get back, feeling let down because the reality is that "working on deals" sometimes isn't as glorious as it sounds. These are all common thoughts and emotions.
I remember while doing my analyst program I had the same "I'm in my 20's and working all of the time" thoughts running through my head. It certainly didn't help that when I spoke to my friends on the phone or went on social media I saw that the majority of them were not working on weekends and seemingly having the time of their lives. I don't want to make my post all about money. To me, money is like fuel. It can make you happy so long as you have more money coming through the door. But money cannot keep you happy. One of the biggest benefits that I found after leaving IB is that I made a lot of money for someone my age, and since I was working days/nights/weekends, I basically never spent it. So when I left I had some freedom and flexibility that a lot of people my age did not. I chose to invest the majority of it in my early 20's, and that has turned out to be a solid decision.
Now, as I'm approaching 30, just about every one of my friends who "experienced their 20's" (whatever that means) say things like "yeah, I need to really start thinking about opening up a brokerage account." Or, "yeah, I mean my parents helped me buy my house but like I'm totally going to pay them back. I just have to figure out like how much to budget and save." They are so far behind and don't even realize it. And the few who do realize it don't seem to care about all the fun they had at 22. They'd rather not have crippling credit card debt. My point is that one of the biggest benefits of IB, to me, was that I realized early that I didn't want to be a career banker. But instead of quitting I just approached the job emotionless, did my work, accepted that it would suck, and knew that when I left I'd be in a better financial situation than most people which would allow me the opportunity to think long and hard about what I wanted to do with my life.
It is very easy to think "the grass is always greener." The reality is that there is no perfect job. The reality is that corporations seldom actually care about their people. They say that they care on marketing materials, but everyone is a disposable resource. Corporate Finance jobs have no less edits to the board deck or iterations of the model than IB does. Management Consultants do the same analysis several times until they get the data to say what they want it to say.
My best advice is to stick it out for 2 years and have an end date in mind. You don't need to have a new career entirely planned out. You're young and worked hard to get where you are. Don't allow the illusion of everyone else's life to shortchange yourself. If you aren't "good" at the job....who cares? Some people learn Excel and PowerPoint quicker than others. In fact, looking back on it, I think that I worked hard but that didn't necessarily make me a top analyst. Just about every analyst gets out of shape. You're barely sleeping, ordering food every night, stressed out, etc. It's a recipe for getting out of shape.
IB opened up a lot of doors for me in terms of people I met and interviews I landed after the fact. It was worth it for a couple years, but I know it's hard to see that when you're 22. And I can't imagine doing the job without my analyst bullpen. We were a very tight knit group and since we're WFH now, I can't imagine how bad some days are from a mental perspective.
If you really can't manage the mental strife, then you should consider leaving. There is no amount of money, no job, no material thing that is worth sacrificing mental health over. It's just a job. If you're in a rut and feeling down, just remember the community on this platform is always here to offer advice. WSO has helped me a lot in my career and my life. It's a great group of people.
Hello, my gf was a banker and quit and she has never been happier. The thing is: banking is not for women. The work toll is too much for a man, let alone for a woman. There is a reason you do not see many women making MD and it is not because women are not competent or because the industry is sexist, it is simply because women quit at various stages because they cannot or do not want to deal with all the stupid bullshit that banking involves. Save your life and quit. With your background you can find many things to do: corporate development, consulting, F500 corporate role. Anything really. You do not want to be unhappy and with no significant other or friends for years and years and years. Get out now and save your life.
Jesus christ... No
Oh yes. This is clearly the answer. It could not be more obvious
actually very true. a reason why there are so few female ceos and female senior bankers isnt because women are not qualified or lack the intelligence to do it, its because they are less likely to have the insane/borderline sociopath tendecies that some men have to work 90 hrs a week, 52 weeks a year for 2 decades to get there. If anything, it's a good trait to have. To stay in banking you need to value money and power over relationships and health. Most women aren't willing to do that (and that's a good thing to be wired that way).
Especially when you add in pregnancies and motherhood.....yeah...good luck maintaining a banking career when you need to breastfeed and deal with a baby that needs a diaper changed when someone is hammering you inbox up to reformat a page in in the next 20 mins.
You really need to speak to someone, either on the phone or via vide chat. Think of someone you can talk to and understand what you're going through. Think about talking to your mentor or career counselor in school. Or grab anyone here on WSO. From the replies, it seems like a lot of people would be willing to speak to you on the phone.
Don't despair and don't do anything rash. Quitting is easy relative to what you're going through, but you will regret it after your third or fourth month of unemployment. you'll get through this, but you definitely need to speak to someone and hopefully that person is a good listener.
I'm not sure if this is great advice, but I'm hiring financial analysts in the US Southeast. F500 company, I can pay you 6 figures and you won't ever have to work more than 60 hours a week. You can have a big house and get out of the city, time for friends and family. Money is great, but not if you don't have time to enjoy it. If this pandemic has taught me anything it's you have to live a little more for today.
Get in touch, I'll interview you seriously.
-S
Love this forum. I’m all out of SBs. Someone cover me here.
Hi, I saw your thread and get where you're coming from (I'm an international too from a lower target). My advise: Banking has some of the best exits in the world. At this point, it's way too early to get a decent exit (imo) and there's always the chance that you might end up liking banking. What I would do is wait it out for 8ish more months, or until your comfortable, and get a transfer to London. I understand that part of the reason you might feel this is the isolation but based on what my friends (The ones who didn't get the lottery) have told me, London has a much better culture and the hours are more fair- enough to feel like you actually have a life outside work. Additionally, I would look into lateralling to an EB. My other friend was at BB for a year and lateralled to a top EB for that exact reason, and he says the culture/hours improved quite a bit. Granted, you won't be getting a 12-hour shift but he works until midnight instead of 3am. I hope this helped.
If you want a mentor that's been exactly where you are, DM me. I'll try to put you in touch with a friend who actually just had her first kid turn 1. She's been a great resource and friend to me for several years.
Your points are well thought out / valid and i may be able to help. i've trained 3 BB IB analyst classes (as an associate, NYC, coverage) and this is definitely the most difficult class in terms of getting them up to speed w/ WFH.
- first off: do not quit now. As someone who interviewed people in my former job and now in banking, it is quite difficult to explain a job switch that is under a year at your stage, regardless of the position. Furthermore, there are still old farts out there who did their 2-year analyst stint in the 90s who think that "you need to do your time". I've found these people are coming around to analysts only having 1-year of experience and bailing, but if you were to leave under a year, think you may have a difficult time explaining your way out of it
will address your points as you numbered them above
1. you will have good / bad weeks. at the beginning they will certainly all be "bad" as you get up the learning curve. The 2nd year analysts have definitely had a lot more good weeks relative to their first year.
2. your big complaint here is juniors are treated like resources (and not people). this embodies the unrelenting, archaic business model that IB has subscribed to since the beginning of time... the only way it hasn't changed, while literally every other industry has evolved, is because of money. Hopefully you have a low/no-work Saturday program that most BB banks have implemented, this is your only day to recharge... it has been a life saver... if you're not doing live deals now, would turn off my work phone for the day
3. Can't help you there, defer to thread
4., 5. So if you've done 30 pitchbooks (10/month, which is a lot), you are probably getting staffed just as much as everyone else. In my group, things are pretty tense (jobs on the line), so the stress level / intense work environment is at an all time high. Furthermore, MDs are pushing for meetings before the holidays, trying to get something in the pipeline before YE to help explain away his/her shitty year. sounds like you're in a similar situation. Historically, Oct-Nov is pretty rough. the pitching lets up a little bit after T-giving. So in terms of a near-term future, it gets better, especially when you get better at your job too... right now you have no time to think, you are just doing. once you get up to speed you'll start pickup up things / learning things about these companies that you were once passionate about. can't help you on the interest part, but two takeaways... 1) when you start interviewing (let's say you interview for an industry job), you will run circles around other candidates who are non-IB. 2) You'll learn a lot more on live deals. you're right about pitching, it add little value.
4/5b) At BB, you are fuel for the engine of a massive tanker that will never stop. And more importantly, the work at the Analyst thru VP/Director level is a 0-sum game. the work that is delegated/created by the MD flows down to us, and it 100% has to be done (IB culture there is no pushback, another big problem). The weeks that are good for me is when a) there are reasonable deadlines and b) i am working with a 2nd year analyst where there is mutual respect. But the short answer is that life doesn't get much better unless you find a "good" MD and align yourself with him/her, and you get no bonus points for sticking it out past your analyst years (except good comp.). you'd be surprised how many Associates/VPs are looking for an exit.
6. WFH has been a life saver for 2nd year analysts / tenured associates in 2Q/3Q20. After a few years of working with nasty VP/Directors, the sight of them can be revolting.. sure analysts feel the same way about associates. On the other hand, WFH has absolutely killed new hires. you're ability to learn things is hampered by the fact that associates/2nd year analysts can't go to your desk and fix your model, show you what to do, etc. I've pulled more 3/4am+ nights in the last 2 months than i have in awhile, and it is directly correlated to working with new analysts. your associates are panicking right now because they are saying "oh shit, my life was bad, it seems like its gunna get worse and stay that way for a lot longer". I.e. associates are taking larger portions of books because analysts aren't getting up to speed like they usually do, and associates don't want to stay up till 4+am, so they'll just do it themselves. Lastly, MDs expect things to run smoothly (think of the tanker analogy)... This situation makes it harder to "connect" to colleagues... unfortunately, i wouldn't expect to develop great relationships with your 2nd year analysts,associates,vps, etc until you've proven your work product, takes 6-9 months. For the 2nd year analysts that I like, I help them with their resume, get connected to people, and find jobs (easier to place you than me). you'll get there, keep your head up.
Overall advice: keep going for 1 year, if you find a good opportunity, take it.
I guess a consoling thing to know is that many people like myself will die to have your job... so maybe you can think about it that way! haha
What you are going through is really really difficult, but it is very normal with this job. I would like to say it gets better/easier, but the reality is you get better/stronger and find ways to manage it better. Two pieces of advice:
1) Do not make any big decisions until you get some sleep and your mind clears. The fact that you've lost all interest in the job, hobbies and activities outside of work very likely means you're at the point of burnout where you can't even think clearly. Having been at that point before, I'd say don't expect that you will get inspiration or a vision for a better job/life/self suddenly. Start small and find little ways to enjoy life. Find 30 minutes to do exercise, call your family or a friend, order food delivery from an extra nice restaurant and set aside time to enjoy it, go to the park or even just walk around the block for a bit. A big part of being this overwhelmed at work has to do with lack of control over your own time and life. Carve out chunks of time where you are in control and you do what you want to, not what you should (according to other people's expectations) or what you're told to do.
2) Talk to people. Regardless of whether you're an introvert or extrovert, having a positive interaction with people will recharge your emotional and psychological batteries (I am very much an introvert by nature but having done banking and finance for 10+ years, I became more of an extrovert because of this). This can help you in many ways:
- Talk to your senior analysts, associates, and VPs. You absolutely have to do this. Once you've done a bunch of work for someone and you are past the time crunch of deadlines, ask them if they have 15-20 minutes to talk to you. Ask them to explain why the analysis is relevant to the client. Ask them what the purpose of the call or the meeting is/was. Often times even if the materials themselves are standard and have no thoughtful content, the purpose is just to get in front of the client. So, get people to explain their rationale for doing all the work. Even if it's not a big inspiring vision, hearing the rationale and why others think something is worth doing will help you find some purpose in what you are doing. If you have done decent work for someone above you, you have built goodwill that you can monetize. Use it. Very importantly, after completing a book or a staffing, ask your senior analyst/associate how you could have done it better/faster/more efficient. Get them to teach you and help you get a bit better/faster so the job gets easier. The best thing about the BBs is that they have promote-through associates who have been in your shoes and you can learn a lot from. Find one or two who you think you can relate to in some way (it is important that you find at least a couple of people who you work with who you like as an individual) and try to work with them a bit more.
- Talk to the recruiters. If they haven't started reaching out to you yet, they will soon. Get them to tell you what other jobs could be a fit and would be out there. You don't need to apply or interview, but it is important to see what's on the horizon. Over time, as you hear more you may get excited about something and get motivated/inspired to work toward it. When work gets more manageable, do take up an interview opportunity here and there. Not because you need/want the job, but because interviews are a two-sided process, which people don't tell you. The best way (for me) to figure out if a job is exciting/interesting/motivating is to walk out of the interview more energized than I walked in. I have followed this concept for a while and it seems to work quite well.
- As several people said above, talk to your staffer. The banks have goals to retain people and if your staffer is any good at managing people, they will find a way to help you. If your ask for help falls on deaf ears, find the one MD you've done the most/best work for and ask them for 15-20 mins of their time. It has to be a small chunk of time, but I would be surprised if you can't find one decent human with some pull to help you. Importantly, when you do get the time, be direct and succinct. Think through what you're going to say, don't be emotional about it, and get right to the point. Tell them you don't want to give up on the job, but have gotten to a really bad point of burnout and can't think and do good work. Ask for a day or two off and a weekend. Get some time to unplug, sleep, eat, go outside, and have some social contact with non-work people.
- Lastly, talk to people outside of work as much as you can in your free time. Talk to family and friends - it will make you feel human again. Talk to your friends from college and how their jobs are. I bet everyone is pretty miserable starting their first job in this awkward dysfunctional pandemic. Hearing that the grass isn't that much greener on the other side will help you not regret your choice (or at least not as much as it sounds you are).
All of the things outlined above are supposed to be small steps that help on the margin and help you get to a better place over time, rather than making one big jump (quitting) before you know where you actually want to go. It's supposed to be an exercise in getting perspective and regaining some control. And if after you get some sleep, clear your mind, have some conversations with your teams, you still hate the job then leave. As others have said, it is just a job and it doesn't define you. Use the conversations with people at work and outside of work to find something that excites you at least a little bit and find another job or masters/grad school program before you quit. If you are on a work visa, it's important to figure out where you're going before you quit. Hopefully the suggestions above help you figure where that is.
Lastly, I have read WSO for 10+ years, but haven't actually posted/commented. Your post triggered a reaction because it really resonated and reminded me that I started in your shoes, that it's been a long road, and that I've felt like you have and almost quit on so many occasions. However, as I said at the start, you do get better and learn how to manage the job and make it easier. I think everyone goes through this regardless of what they do for a living, in banking it's just at a very very accelerated pace.
I, personally, am not here to enrich corporations or other people's businesses. make up your mind is never wrong. those stuck have a crab in barrel mentally, or you want the pedigree your bank has, then stay.
It'll all work out! Just supporting another international girl out here :) Feel free to dm anything if that helps
Did you end up quitting?
Curious as well.
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