40 yo new MBA with non-financial work history
Can I break into IB? What would I have to do? What would you recommend? What are my other options in finance that might make sense (that also pay very well)?
Here's my full story:
Background is highly non-traditional. I want the real skinny, so I'll give you the real breakdown:
1. Prep School, near top of class, went to top West Coast university undergrad. (my prep school has a great network and lots of grads in all aspects of finance, so that's one potential asset).
2. Decided I wanted to pursue art and dropped out (oh no!!!).
3. Spent many years doing unrelated "day jobs" in various industries while pursuing art, which didn't turn lucrative.
4. Had a family, started getting serious about a "real" paycheck. Finished undergrad at non-target college.
5. Financial crisis was an eye-opener. Found that I was fascinated by the world of derivatives, risk, and finance in general. The more I learned about it, the more I realized it was what I wanted.
6. Decided to get an MBA stat, so enrolled quickly in a non-target to get the credential. Was drawn to corporate finance and valuation. GPA is 3.78 (I could have done better but when I started I was just looking for the credential to land better work and didn't consider how critical it is to get that 4.0).
6. Learned about IB and found the work fascinating. Also love the complexities of derivatives, but the life of a trader sounds kind of mechanical, unless I'm misunderstanding there, and although I have the aptitude for math, there's no way I'm going to do the schooling to be a quant at this point.
7. Realized I have many strikes against me, so here I am. I know my non-trad background will be a big NO for many if not most, but I'm hardworking, I've pulled two jobs at once for extended periods so I can handle the grind, my wife supports me (I've told her about the hours, the work-life crap, etc.), and I'm smart (although maybe my life choices qualify me as a moron to some ;-)). I can be a very aggressive go-getter when I'm clear about what I want, but I would appreciate good feedback which will help me to determine where to apply that focus.
I'm open to any feedback and suggestions, esp. regarding areas of finance I haven't considered. My interest in valuation seems to make IB and PE/VC logical, but for the fact that my background may significantly interfere.
As for the "smart" part, I'll tell a brief story for perspective, since lots of people say "smart" but who knows what they mean? When I lived in New York, I went to a headhunter who sent me to McKinsey HQ to interview for an entry-level job. At the time I had no idea what McKinsey was because I was deep in my "i am an artist" mode with total disdain for all things corporate, but I was looking for a better paycheck. It was just luck this headhunter had an "in" at McKinsey, but as I said I was clueless so it wouldn't have mattered. I interviewed with several people who I hit it off with. They seemed to like my natural "think outside the box" approach (no I never used that term). Anyway, I took their problem-solving test which is kind of like an IQ test, and then went on my merry way. The next day the headhunter called and said excitedly "They want to hire you! The HR lady said 'OMIGOD he took the test and he's a genius, we want him!'" BUT... I HATED the environment in all its plush, silent hallways glory (like I said, I was deep in the self-absorbed artist bullshit). Now, when I look back on it, I think how different my life would be had I accepted, but I didn't know what the hell I was doing other than that if it wasn't about being discovered as the next downtown art star, I didn't care about it.
So now here I am looking to break in with great difficulty when it would have been far easier had I done it all those years ago.
Comments anyone?
And yes, I agree wholeheartedly with anyone who wants to say that I'm not only not smart, but a complete idiot (at least from the point of view of this board).
You are 40 and trying to break into IB?
Theoretically, yes...
It depends on what you've done so far.
Given the lack of detail in your post, I don't think anybody here can tell you.
Research, asset management, private equity, venture capital, corporate finance, real estate - the list goes on. You really have to "give some color" for us to tell you anything useful...
However, I think that you may misunderstand a few things about how finance works if you're currently doing or have done an MBA and don't know these answers yourself.
Can you give us some background info on yourself?
Background is highly non-traditional. I want the real skinny, so I'll give you the real breakdown: 1. Prep School, near top of class, went to top West Coast university undergrad. (my prep school has a great network and lots of grads in all aspects of finance, so that's one potential asset). 2. Decided I wanted to pursue art and dropped out (oh no!!!). 3. Spent many years doing unrelated "day jobs" in various industries while pursuing art, which didn't turn lucrative. 4. Had a family, started getting serious about a "real" paycheck. Finished undergrad at non-target college. 5. Financial crisis was an eye-opener. Found that I was fascinated by the world of derivatives, risk, and finance in general. The more I learned about it, the more I realized it was what I wanted. 6. Decided to get an MBA stat, so enrolled quickly in a non-target to get the credential. Was drawn to corporate finance and valuation. GPA is 3.78 (I could have done better but when I started I was just looking for the credential to land better work and didn't consider how critical it is to get that 4.0). 6. Learned about IB and found the work fascinating. Also love the complexities of derivatives, but the life of a trader sounds kind of mechanical, unless I'm misunderstanding there, and although I have the aptitude for math, there's no way I'm going to do the schooling to be a quant at this point. 7. Realized I have many strikes against me, so here I am. I know my non-trad background will be a big NO for many if not most, but I'm hardworking, I've pulled two jobs at once for extended periods so I can handle the grind, my wife supports me (I've told her about the hours, the work-life crap, etc.), and I'm smart (although maybe my life choices qualify me as a moron to some ;-)). I can be a very aggressive go-getter when I'm clear about what I want, but I would appreciate good feedback which will help me to determine where to apply that focus.
I'm open to any feedback and suggestions, esp. regarding areas of finance I haven't considered. My interest in valuation seems to make IB and PE/VC logical, but for the fact that my background may significantly interfere.
As for the "smart" part, I'll tell a brief story for perspective, since lots of people say "smart" but who knows what they mean? When I lived in New York, I went to a headhunter who sent me to McKinsey HQ to interview for an entry-level job. At the time I had no idea what McKinsey was because I was deep in my "i am an artist" mode with total disdain for all things corporate, but I was looking for a better paycheck. It was just luck this headhunter had an "in" at McKinsey, but as I said I was clueless so it wouldn't have mattered. I interviewed with several people who I hit it off with. They seemed to like my natural "think outside the box" approach (no I never used that term). Anyway, I took their problem-solving test which is kind of like an IQ test, and then went on my merry way. The next day the headhunter called and said excitedly "They want to hire you! The HR lady said 'OMIGOD he took the test and he's a genius, we want him!'" BUT... I HATED the environment in all its plush, silent hallways glory (like I said, I was deep in the self-absorbed artist bullshit). Now, when I look back on it, I think how different my life would be had I accepted, but I didn't know what the hell I was doing other than that if it wasn't about being discovered as the next downtown art star, I didn't care about it.
So now here I am looking to break in with great difficulty when it would have been far easier had I done it all those years ago.
Comments anyone?
And yes, I agree wholeheartedly with anyone who wants to say that I'm not only not smart, but a complete idiot (at least from the point of view of this board).
see post below for answer
We would need more background. School, GPA, previous work experience
So you had an offer at McKinsey and declined to be an art bum?
What have been your normal/corporate jobs so far? Thats what we need to know.
yeah that's right. declined McKinsey to be an art bum.
currently (last 3 yrs) run marketing for a small financial advisory firm. prior to that a lot of bs admin work but for good companies, incl. a 2nd-tier management consulting firm, and a few Fortune 500 companies in NYC. there's nothing remotely impressive here, because I simply didn't care if it wasnt about being an art bum.
Should add that I know, from analysts dumping shit on me at the management consulting firm, plenty about doing corporate research, and plenty about putting together sales presentations equivalent to pitch books. Am a whiz at PowerPoint and pretty damn good at Excel. But those are just basic skills, of course. And given the opportunity to interview, if I have a good way to tell my "story" to the right people, I can present well. It's getting that foot in the door and getting good advice on how to spin the non-trad background I'm looking for, as well as pointers about other options beside IB if the IB world is too rigid for someone like me.
There are plenty of other options (PWM, AM, FoF, Corp Fin); why do you really want to get into IB though? I understand that perhaps you may want a career shift and the possibility to make more money, but why do you feel like you want to enter IB at this stage of your life?
The convergence of elements involved in IB seems most aligned to my interests: valuation, m&a, debt and equity issuance. My interest in IB stems from what the work is about, even if you're doing crap at the lower levels. Corp Fin (assuming you mean being in a corporate finance job at a company) is also interesting, but there's a lot of other crap involved in that I'm not really interested. Looking to get involved in deals that involve valuation. IB, PE, VC, and certain types of HF seem to be the closest fit to my interests. From my current job with the financial advisory firm, I'm pretty sure I would not be that into PWM. But I'm open if people think that's the best option.
I'd start with subscribing to the BIWS financial modeling program. The entire package is ~$1000, but you can buy individual programs piecemeal. Learn how to model very efficiently. Read the Deal Pipeline and NYT Dealbook every day for starters.
While doing this, I'd actively reach out to valuation / fairness opinion shops (Duff & Phelps, etc.), boutique banks, and the like. You're almost definitely not going to get into a bulge bracket unless you have serious senior connections. Also consider transaction advisory services at one of the Big 4. If you any sort of industry experience (tech, healthcare, energy) that will help also as you tell your story about why you want to move from industry into high finance.
Ultimately, banking's not that interesting. Don't get too caught up in "valuation, m&a, debt and equity issuance." Your job is more research and admin work than anything else.
Do you have a shot? Yes Will it be hard? Yes Should you look for non-traditional ways into banking? Yes
Try to find connections at a boutique/small PE shop to get some relevant experience, here someone might label you a Senior Associate (probably no chance at VP).
I would say you have a VERY tough shot coming into a bulge bracket through any kind of recruiting..I just don't know where you would slot in. You can always lateral after proving yourself at a regional / boutique.
Try Fidelity. You might end up as a college football coach.
I know people who have no experience and got in at the VP level or higher but they had a good network and were essentially brining clients to the firm. At this point, you will be valued more for your network and so doing valuation exercises will not be part of your daily routine.
Banking is a sales job. Unless you can bring in clients, you won't get your first job in banking at age 40+.
What you need to answer is: what are you bringing to the table? No matter how smart you think you are, there are people just as smart or smarter who are 20 years younger. "I'm smart" can't be your answer. You need something better. Please advise.
Give me an example of what types of potential clients would need to be brought in. My prep school network has plenty of potential to mine, lots of CEO's, finance exectives at corporations, other finance professionals, entrepreneurs with startups, etc. The question is, how valid is that as a connection unless I can say "my five best friends are CEOs of major companies." Based on the pedigree of a lot of IB candidates with both prep schools and Ivy's, etc., I'm sure tons of them have the same kinds of connections. So it would be helpful if you were more specific.
no, that is correct. I'm not chelsea clinton joining mckinsey with daddy and mommy's rolodex. nor am I myself a senator.
Agreed that there is little to no chance to break in at the analyst or associate level as they are the analytical grunts. The expectation is that they are, by and large, young, single and available at all hours of the day (week and month) and have little pride. At age 40, you would be an interesting candidate at the managing director level as investment banking at that level is sales. Most IB analysts don't continue a career in investment banking since most of them aren't supreme salesmen. If you have a big book of businessmen then you would be an interesting candidate to some bank.
The hard truth is that finance is a young person's business. The older guys are the business producers. Agreed that going to a non-target MBA program will work against you, not for you. You sound like a guy with a high IQ and a good network. I'd consider commercial real estate or something along those lines. Your realistic chance at investment banking has come and gone barring unforeseen circumstances.
technically its possible... but at 40 its highly unlikely.
no reason to try it now, give up the dream.
totally the opposite of his little signature quote. lol
it sucks that it took you this long to figure out what you want to do. just go hard and put in work 100+ hours researching about the job, how others broke in, learning the technical information, and network .
i am still clueless on how you go about doing each of these steps so good luck to you.
Your situation can be summed up like this: it's theoretically possible to break into IB at the age of 40, but it is so unlikely that your time would be better spent focusing on getting into some other area of high finance. If you broke into IB at any level other than VP or MD you'd look and feel ridiculous, as ridiculous as Chandler from the show "Friends" when the character was employed in a college internship for marketing with kids 15 years his younger. IB is a job for 20 somethings and then for true salesmen at the top senior levels.
why would any 40 year old person want to work atrocious hours with vile people such as bankers??
If you're interested in derivatives why not be a trader or just trade your own account?
OP can you use the quote feature when you post, you are making it very difficult for readers to figure out whose questions you are addressing in your answers.
To answer your question, I personally think it will be next to impossible for you to get to IB with your background and age. If you do it, I would be very impressed, but you are climbing an inverted cliff right now. At the end of the day no manager will want a 40 year old with no experience in a group with guys and girls from the best schools in their 20s as your equals and overachieving people in their 30s with a decade of relevant experience who will be your seniors. This sets up a very hostile dynamic. You might not think so looking from the outside in, but if you get an offer at an IB it will be more obvious as time goes along until someone, whether it is you or your colleagues, will realize that a change needs to be implemented.
Take the advice of streetwannabe and look at PWM or a mid-tier AM shop if you truly love the finance like you claim.
One more thing, you mention that you have a family. So why on earth would you want to go into IB with no experience anyway? If you do manage to secure an offer, the one true way that you can get up to speed and gain the respect needed, is to shadow your analysts for a year (yes, I mean staying with them every night to figure out how models come together), then spend another year doing the same with the associate level workflow. This basically means that your family will need to be put on the far back-burner, because if an IB gives you a chance, they will not want to hear that you have family obligations when they need you to work.
Forget it. You're 40. There's better things to do in life at 40, especially when you have a family, than be a monkey analyst/associate.
Crazier shit has happened. I mean... someone actually fucked honey boo boo child's mom right? That seems far more unlikely than you ending up in IBD. But I would say you're not exactly well positioned.
You have an MBA right? That adds another element of complexity - you'd be "overpriced" so to speak. You'd be coming in at an associate's salary but you'd only be capable of first year analyst level work. I'd guess that without significant connections, any bulge bracket or well known MM firm is out of the question if you didn't get an offer via on campus MBA recruiting. The hiring process at those places at the analyst/associate level is pretty structured and even if you were ken fucking Moelis you'd never get past the dumbass ex-sorostitutes in HR. They screen resumes and are generally incapable of critical thought, so they tend to ignore actual talent/intelligence and pass on the resumes that conform most closely to the traditional path to banking. Yours does not fall into that category.
You're best off scrapping your way into a gig at a small little shitshop. At those firms, hiring decisions can be pretty casual - I mean... It's just some assclown making a judgement call, right? You impress the correct assclown, and you're in. Also this type o shop will have more flexibility in tens of comp, which is good for you. A big bank will have hard and fast rules around which rank gets paid what at the junior levels. You would have to be compensated at the associate level because you have an MBA, but you're not going to be able to perform at a level that justifies that comp right off the bat, which makes it a lot less likely that someone will hire you. Like, why would I hire you if I can hire a recent college grad with the same level of knowledge as you that I can pay half as much? It's just a shitty trade. A smaller shop will have more flexibility to pay you what you're worth rather than what their corporate policy dictates, which makes it much more likely that they'll be willing to take a chance on you.
All you can really do is canvas small shops and get in people's face until they give you a Shot. Its not impossible, just unlikely. For what it's worth, I wouldn't hire you. Based on your background I would have to assume that you wouldn't even begin to have the slightest conception of the difference between your dick and your asshole when you first came in, and there are plenty of MBA grads with actual banking/finance experience looking for jobs. Also creative types often realize that they have more interesting shit to do and walk out once they see what it actually means to work in banking. Nothing in your background shows me that you can handle the lifestyle of a junior banker, or even hold down a 9-5 for that matter. Plus you have a family? Are you really going to be willing to hang out at your desk until 2 am every day when you have kids at home?
Forgive me if I'm repeating what someone else already said, there's a ton of comments on here. You're going to have a very difficult time getting into any legitimate role that interests you. Largely b.c they're going to expect you to start on the bottom, or very close to it. Very rare that someone that's 40 is going to want to deal with the kind of shit they'll throw at you.
Opinion based on my previous colleague from a BB that was 35 with a military background that just finished his undergrad degree. People just didn't want to give him a shot b.c at some pt. you may be too old.
It very well is possible you can get into institutional sales, or something of that sort. but overall, IDK.
This. look at another field honestly. its just not worth the cost of time (which is the most important for you). Have you been following markets, do you love markets? Then asset management comes into picture.
Try for smaller shops if you're dead set, and you might have to move, don't limit yourself to financial hubs
What particular areas would you suggest that would be more open to someone such as myself? I'm particularly interested in work involving valuation, but I'm interested in any area that might be open to me.
I think you mentioned it, but where did you say you lived?
Goodness gracious.
The way I see it, you have a few options:
1) Move up the ranks at a F500 in a particular industry and hope to eventually land a spot in an industry coverage group after you've made C-level contacts within said industry. This will take some time, however.
2) Network your way into a no-name boutique at the VPish level and use that experience to move to a more reputable investment bank. This is probably your best bet.
3) Get very lucky by networking your way into a middle market bank. Unlikely.
West Coast
Can you tell us what you ultimately ended up doing? This was a very interesting post and discussion. I'd love to hear an update if possible. I do hope things worked out well for you.
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