I currently work for a 2nd tier boutique (think Sagent, Lincoln, Needham etc.) as a 2nd year analyst in the Midwest. The hours have gotten better as I am getting faster at my job, but I still pull 65-70 hours a week on average. Of course, when we're on a bakeoff or a live deal those go up to 100+ but that only happens a few times a month.
- I was just wondering if this is as good as it gets for investment banking, or if there are shops where the average hours are closer to 55-60?
OP continued at bottom
IB Hours: Is This As Good As it Gets?
Everyone knows that hours are long in investment banking. However, hours/lifestyle/work-life balance and more vary by group, deal flow and firm. Reviewing stats in the Investment Banking Industry Report can give you a better idea which firms generally work longer hours.
According to 2018 data, the following firms worked the most hours a week:
- MUFJ Morgan Stanley Securities: 90 hours/week
- Allen & Company llc: 87.5 hours/week
- MTS Health Partners: 87.5 hours/week
Most WSO users in this thread commented that 60-70 hours is fairly decent for investment banking jobs and that any professional services job at a certain level is going to require more than the 40-hour work week.
Recommended Reading
- Finance Jobs 60 Hours a Week or Less
- Investment Bank Lifestyle Better at Boutiques
- Banks with Easy Hours
- Jobs with Low Hours
Continuation of OP
The reason I ask is because I am actually considering a career in investment banking (Not ECM or DCM) and just wanted to get a feel for what hours at some other shops were.
tl;dr: hours at current shop are 65-70 hours a week for analysts. 60-65 a week for associates. Do better hours exist at other "reputable" shops? Looking to stay on as a career banker without killing myself
I can't imagine less hours anywhere else.
65 hours is good... Even in non banking finance roles you can put that in a lot of the time.
What are some other banks with with good hours? I've heard Centerview, Baird were known for decent hours as well?
Yeah that really is not bad at all. I cannot imagine it going much lower for IB at an analyst level
It is entirely group dependent. My bank, for example, has certain groups that work 90 hours every week and others that work 60. It just depends on how hot the industry or product that your group covers is.
That being said, 65 to 70 is very good compared to other banks, especially if you are making street. All professional services - law, medicine, finance - will required some level of commitment over the standard 40 hours.
Doesn't get better than that unless you are getting crap for experience at a dead shop.
60-65 hrs is probably the best available. Comparatively, anyone trying to start a career in any industry will be working around the same amount. If you move to a smaller boutique you may get better hours in between deals - but you will have much less in terms of resources to lean on and possibly lower overall comp.
Agree with this. Not sure where you could possibly beat 60 - 65
Certain coverage groups at the BB have nice hours. Lots of ECM/DCM groups have decent hours. Some boutiques like Evercore, Greenhill, BX/PJT have very sustainable hours. Lots of the MM are sell-side sweat shops but I've heard very good things about Baird and Lincolns' hours.
What industry groups are these exactly???
> Certain coverage groups at the BB have nice hours.
Which are these likely to be?
6-6 lifestyle
Banking analysts complain about 100 hour weeks but that rarely happens in reality. Your hours are common among NYC bulge brackets. Pick any 4 random NYC bulge bracket groups and 2 will probably have comparable hours.
I had this discussion with a friend the other day. We agreed that if you're a certain kind of guy, you'll always work 60-70 hours per week. Doesn't matter what you do: banking, consulting, HF/PE/VC, own firm, management in some firm, corp. dev., moving to your parents' business, whatever. If you go for the supercompetitive jobs, 60-70 actually marks a lower boundary for the hours you'll work.
Yes, I have read about the 4-hour work week also, but if you think about it, the implied "spending the other 66 hours per week by the pool" may not really be appealing for a longer period. Actually, a lot of the more senior people I work with now are financially independent, but still work hard, for reasons other than compensation.
I think 60-70 is sustainable for the long haul. That may not be in line with western mainstream views currently, but who cares.
To be fair, you can't exactly apply the 4 hour work week to investment banking. A lot of that is predicated on using virtual assistants and if you send everything to India (banking's version of VAs) you'll quickly find yourself also looking for contractual work
I've pulled 60 hours some weeks, 90 others. Just depends on deal flow and group culture. You have it pretty good, but if you wanted to move to a bigger shop you could certainly find a group that won't work you to death (I definitely know of places where no one works less than 80)
KeyBanc and Wells Fargo Securities I hear are pretty good for hours
So that isn't "65-70 hours a week," You're staying for 11.5 hours on the weekdays, but unless you count the time you spend bullshitting, taking a shit and eating, you're probably doing around 10 hours of actual work (optimistic). So a few hours on EITHER Saturday OR Sunday means you're working maybe 55 hours a week. That's inline with any real job in finance. Not sure how much lower you expect to go.
So since you work this range, 65 hours ish a week. What is your compensation like?
$115k all in comp for first years this year, which is definitely below street. Can't really complain because the hours are substantially better
Not bad, how does recruiting go for these type of shops? Lately I seen a few apps on indeed.com
The issue isn't really the average hours - the issue is 1) the ratio of hours spent / hours actually needed (ie facetime) 2) the predictability of the hours 3) the lumpiness of the hours
Being in the office for 65 hours when there's no deal flow feels almost as bad as working 90 'necessary' hours, in my personal opinion.
So Baird and Lincoln have decent hours? Did we miss any other shops?
Aside from very busy periods where many deals are running almost parallel in the sales process, I typically work 9-7 (lunch hour not included). My team will likely end up closing 10-15 deals this year, and I will have significant touches (e.g., creating entire CIMs) on approximately 1/3 of them; will likely have slightly less significant touches on another 1/3.
Hours worked doesn’t necessarily mean much after a certain point. Most success in closing deals comes down to maximizing efficiency and team cohesiveness, two elements which are unfortunately lost upon many banks, it seems.
banks with less working hours? (Originally Posted: 01/29/2013)
hey guys, i'm kind of at the stage of deciding my dream and the working hour of IB comes to me as the hardest obstacle to me (well it might be same to others but) and i'm wondering if there's kind of banks with less salary but with less working hours and better working conditions. I thought the European banks would be the answer but found out to be wrong. I'll really appreciate if you help.
You should look at S&T and ER, both have less hours, but same money at the junior level.
They do no have the same comp at the junior level at all.
also interested.
I know some MM banks and boutiques are better. as well as places like DB Jax and a few non-NYC BB offices (maybe midwest?)
Well at this point, probably UBS.
As a ubs analyst who has pulled constant 3/4am nights for the last few months ... no
Check out the CorpFin groups at Accounting firms (Big 4 and other large CPA/Consulting groups). There is a thread on it if you want more detail, but you will make less (still decent) and work less (50-65 hrs/wk). Many required previous IB experience though.
thx for u guys answering me
You don't want to join an investment banking job with low extremely low hours. That's means no deals which means no résumé which means less exits.
IB is about 75-80 hours ER is about 60 hours S&T is about 55 hours
You wish..
^Hahahahah you don't know what you're talking about at all.
@ Snapple - I assume you mean "exceptions to the rules" the comment above was general.
Exceptions to the rules are as follows.
Exceptions - lean toward IB 1. Crappy economy so you're still grinding doing useless work never winning any deals (recession periods) 2. Your group is a natural sweat shop (you got screwed) 3. You're bad with politics and are unable to play the "office games" and find ways to lower your working hours.
Exceptions - lean towards ER 1. If you work for a psycho analyst or your group/office tends to be insane 2. You cover an insane amount of stocks
Sales and Trading - ??????????? 1. You really got royally screwed times 10 billion. Have no idea how you're going to be clearing 80+ hours when the job is primarily market hours and there is really no weekend work
Hope that clears things up.
Try DCM/ECM at the BBs. For corp. fin. roles, look at the regional players like SunTrust, PNC, and WF (although they're getting more serious recently) that will have a better work/life balance.
Wrong
ECM/DCM = general same hours above poster is correct.
ER/IB pay change is "it depends" generally IB will pay more. If you work for a top analyst in ER you get paid well and taken care of.
Arguing about who "always" gets paid more is a big waste of time though. Glad newfirstyear is getting paid more.
^^ Cleared this comment up above.
People who say they "average" 100+hours a week are generally straight up lying. If you're getting reamed like that in IB as a 2nd year (1st years always get killed because they are slow regarding all the excel, ppt and word stuff) might be smart to switch banks unless you're getting serious deal experience.
Eg. 80 hours a week and a few deals when you leave is fine However, would trade for 100 hours a week if all your deals were mega deals Would not do 100 hours a week for 2 years at any firm if it was 100% pitching
There are certainly weeks you work 120 hours but again, if you average it across maybe that should be edited to 75-85.
Finally 75-85 includes ALL banks, if we're simply talking about only hard core banks sure the average is going to be higher, but we're just getting into a pissing match at that point which i doubt either of us want to do.
Less Hours Banks (Originally Posted: 05/14/2010)
I was wondering if there were any IBs (boutique/MM whatever) where the work hours aren't 100 hr weeks (like maybe 80 hrs), and that are also easier to get into.
I don't really care about presitge/comp (it is IB...)
If they exist, I would imagine they would be located in the South. Couldn't name any off the top of my head though
I'm also open to other positions (than IB analyst) but it has to be similar work (i.e. i don't want s&t)
The middle east - in Ramadan you'll work 9-1.
N/A
Consulting may be a good idea then, the hours are less.
There's also Money or asset management.
All decent paying jobs, but with less hours than IB or even S&T
Risk management is another option - the work in credit RM is similar to that in IB, though you won't get the same depth of experience.
Go look at local boutiques. Granted that you won't be paying 100+, but you will be working 70-80 tops.
Is this really true? Most local boutiques only work 70-80? Can someone confirm?
Any French firm
so next question... how do we get recruited by them? Looking for more than the few small boutiques that do that on campus cold calling only solution?
Heard BMO has good hours and for some reason pays above street.
it seems you are more desperate for the lack of hours rather than the I-Bank job itself. Focus on whats important :)
Morgan Joseph
Joseph Morgan
Look at regional middle market banks. You might have to put in the occasional long week, but in general the hours will be better.
Jorgan Moseph
Lazard NYC office IBD
why don't we just rename this thread "investment banks in Italy and Spain"
What is investment banking if you can't work long hours and make tons of money?
Public accounting? ^
Do hours really vary across different firms? (Originally Posted: 01/24/2016)
Firms like Lazard and Moelis along with several BBs are known for long working hours. Do hours really differ? It's hard to meet someone who has experience with two or more firms. I think that anyone can expect to work for 90+ hours in investment banking. But do firms like Lazard or Moelis regularly demand 110+ hours? I currently have a couple of offers to consider. Although I am ready for long hours, I am very curious.
Yes. Every firm's hours vary depending on group, too. There's info in other threads here about UBS LA, GS & MS TMT, and some other allegedly notorious ultra hard working groups.
Not only can hours between firms vary, but hours between groups within the same firm can be night and day.
...........
Definitely true. It's crazy how much group culture can vary w/in the same firm at the same office.
Satellite office, and downtime (August) slowest possible is still probably 55 hours...on a standalone basis. Average I would say is still min. 60, circa 65
Which bank is the softest (Originally Posted: 06/03/2016)
I am looking to join a top investment bank as a 1st year associate. I want to get the best brand name on my resume, have the best experience to provide me with exit opps, and receive positive feedback day to day (I am sensitive), but I do not want to work the latest hours. So my question: which bank has been dubbed as the softest on the street?
Wat
Moelis LA or Lazard HC NYC
lol you dick
Some men just want to watch the world burn.
ROFL
Lol, a bschool friend of mine went to HSBC post MBA for exactly this reason and so far, it's been very good for him. Slight discount on pay, but world of difference with regards to hours and culture.
slight discount? glassdoor has HSBC associates making 160k all in. Throw in instability of the firm too...
Troll post. Look at his header.
To OP: Do a better job trolling. If you're making fun of someone it's more effective if you provide enough information that we can figure out who/what you're making fun of.
You can't trust what's on glassdoor anyway. buddy is in London and the glassdoor total comp range for associate is £35K - £125K.... Of course HSBC doesn't pay as well as some of the BBs, but the difference isn't that big (at least at the associate level) and my buddy consistently works 50-55 hours a week vs. 90+ for my other bschool classmates that ended up at BBs / EBs. I am in no way advocating going to work with HSBC or any other global balance sheet banks (at the end of the day, you pretty much only get mandates because you are a lenders so it's not the most exciting work environment), but just pointing out that it's a great place lifestyle place if that's what you are into.
Bear Sterns, Lehman Brothers, Merryl Lynch, L.F. Rothschild, Salomon Brothers, etc
Take a lap
The trolling that happens on WSO isn't even funny anymore.
Unfortunately there's only one word to describe you and I'm gonna spell it out for you. S-A-W-F-T
Bada Boom. Realest guy in the room right here!
SoftBank
Ut beatae temporibus ad ex et nulla provident. Maxime perspiciatis omnis hic et ea non.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Est minima quas quia quia deserunt. Et voluptatem qui enim ea.
Consequatur adipisci tenetur dolor quos aliquid hic atque. Aut fugiat a eaque rerum eius enim dolores. Excepturi ducimus excepturi qui minus ut nemo. Consequatur fuga consequatur ex nobis repudiandae qui. Voluptas qui et et eligendi.
Odio fuga animi nesciunt sit quibusdam dolorum sit et. Quis libero ipsum qui. Vel cumque maiores autem nisi. Excepturi iusto eveniet dolor aut ut rerum recusandae et. Illo nihil quis aut voluptas cum voluptas. Quisquam placeat harum fugiat et placeat autem commodi.
Explicabo harum ut enim qui ipsam. Dolore distinctio eum cum non sit aut ut. Expedita voluptates assumenda porro ipsum maiores tempora in. Quod debitis eaque non placeat nihil beatae necessitatibus.
Et aut excepturi sint exercitationem quam. Consequatur consequatur error dolores qui.
Impedit non exercitationem et delectus ea adipisci voluptatem. Placeat in nihil laborum voluptatibus laudantium. Harum magnam omnis impedit accusantium. Ab nihil expedita culpa porro ratione. Similique officia ut temporibus magni occaecati est debitis.
Voluptas labore aperiam voluptatem quam molestias voluptate maiores. Voluptas reprehenderit voluptate architecto dolorem. Repudiandae voluptate at ullam commodi enim.
Saepe iure id similique labore dolorum fuga. Qui nihil odio culpa et. Unde animi expedita est veniam aut mollitia aut.
Quis voluptas esse et itaque. Ut blanditiis voluptatem voluptas qui aut at.
Ut quo temporibus deleniti a. Et quaerat velit nihil voluptatem.
Laudantium accusamus ut minus consequatur ex illo fugiat sint. Occaecati culpa ut atque rem a. Harum exercitationem esse rerum laborum tenetur eum eveniet consequuntur. Fugit et beatae beatae nihil rerum dolor voluptate nihil. Et sint soluta in dolor eos debitis itaque temporibus. Voluptatem asperiores ut ullam est in pariatur animi.
Voluptas ea facere eum sequi. Consectetur corrupti fuga dolorem rerum laudantium. Rerum nemo saepe voluptas nihil et quas. Corporis quibusdam non ut laboriosam pariatur et animi. Ut culpa ut natus est natus quia reprehenderit. Repellat doloribus aliquid itaque in in sapiente.