Most of recruiting discussion here are for SA/ANL, and I realized MBA level recruiting is very different after went through the entire process. So I want to give back to the community and write a short guide about it.
Since all these are pretty transparent and will be provided to you in your first month of MBA life, it is just for those who haven't enrolled/admitted and want to get some ideas beforehand.
Please keep in mind that every school is different. This guide only applies to CBS (probably also Stern/Wharton and other east coast schools) but I would imagine all top schools have the similar process.
Last, forgive my grammar/spelling and feel free to correct me.
I would break recruiting process to four parts: public events, informationals, invite-only events and interview.
Public Events:
The first public event is company presentation, which includes presentation and networking time. If you don't attend this event, it is very unlikely you would be able to recruit for that bank. During the networking session, you will walk around, join some "banker circle" and try to show passion and interest although what you really care is free food and drink. It is NOT the time to impress people but make sure you know your 15 seconds why banking pitch. It is also ok to ask stupid questions that appropriate for an MBA level candidate. Most bankers there will be alumni so talk about school life is usually a safe choice.
After the first event, there are usually other public events - the day on the job (nicest food and drink), happy hour (not so nice) and case study (boring). Most of those events are mandatory and follow by networking session (aka banker circle).
Informational:
This is the Most notorious part of the recruiting. After the first public event, the structural informational interview starts. Usually, someone from recruiting team will arrange your first informational (guaranteed) and you will get referred to another banker after the first one (unless you screw up). Some banks stop at one or two informationals and other could ask you to visit their office every week. Depends on how many banks you are recruiting, you can expect 10 - 50 informationals during two months (Oct and Nov). The record I know is 70ish.
Informational is usually with alumni and lasts 30 minutes. It is more like a chat instead of interview since no technical will be asked (some technical group like FIG may be the exception). Now it is time to impress but also could get backfired since different bankers like different styles.
Whether you perform well or not at informational will directly lead to rej or private event/interview invitation.
Private Event:
Private events start in Nov/Dec. Only "chosen one" could attend those upscale dinner or fancy drink events. If you don't get invited, most likely you will not get interview invite, but there are exceptions. However, private event invitation doesn't guarantee interview especially if people get too relax and screw up.
Interview:
After a whole semester wasted on recruiting events, you finally reach the interview stage in early Jan. The entire interview process will finish within one week (start on Monday and get the offer on Friday 5pm). The first round consists one 30 minutes interview (usually on campus), and you will know the result the same night or second day. Second round/super day could be three to five 30 minutes back to back interviews.
Although people spend most time preparing for technical questions, 80% of interview questions are fit questions. If you did it correctly, you would expect to know many interviewers already. So whether they like you or not before interview also matter (at least from my experience). Some banks will ask you if they are your top choice during second round interview and that's the most difficult question I believe.
On Friday 5pm, people will get the phone call from recruiting team about the offer. If you told the bank that they are your first choice, you are expected to accept on the phone. You may also be put on waiting list and get offer the following week.
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Generally... Don't people just tell every bank they are their first choice? Or do you skirt it and say "I'm REALLY excited about the possibility of working at X bank, and you would be near the top of the list, but I'm looking to see all my options before I commit to a final decision?"
Telling a firm that they are your top choice, if that is not really the case, is highly discouraged by the respective career centers. You want to go through recruiting with the goals of (1) getting an offer from your top firm and (2) maintain cordial relationships with alumni across other banks. The alumni will be the ones you connect with should you decide to lateral to another firm post-summer or a few years in.
You have the right idea - you can tell them you are excited about the opportunity and that they are among your top choices. It is a months-long process, so they understand if you take a few days to make a sound decision.
I agree with what short_round said. At MBA level, you are expected to stick to what you said (mature enough to know what you want). So if you tell them they are your first choice, you better mean it. It is a small world and alumni have their own chatting channel.
Also this supposes to test your ability of expressing something negative in a positive way, although some banks will not give you offer unless they are your first choice.
Thanks for doing this. How does group placement work? Is there any opportunity to express a desire for a certain group during the recruiting process?
It depends on bank. First you need to know whether that bank has generalist program (most EB, MS) or direct placement (BAML, CS, JPM) or placement after offer (GS). If they have direct placement, you will have chance to indicate that before informational starts so your informational will be most likely with that group.
Awesome write-up! This sounds insanely, insanely grueling, especially the non-stop informationals and social events. I never knew how amazing I had it by going through undergrad recruiting, which seems downright tame in comparison.
I just wonder, what do banks hope to learn by stretching the process so much with having so many informationals and socials? Is it simply a weeding out process to see who most consistently sustains interest in this marathon?
Banking is not the most popular career choice at MBA level so they need to figure out who is really committed and who just uses it as backup option.
ASOs are expected to be career bankers, so your social/networking ability is extremely important because you need to develop relationship in future.
MBAs usually already build up their personality and working habits after working full-time for several years and it is difficult to make them "fit" during the work (unlike college grads who are like blank paper). So bankers need to figure out who are the ones they could comfortably work with.
Could you elaborate on this a bit? Whose expectation is this?
SB'ed
Short answer from my friends who did the recruiting: yes. The banks want to know 1) are you an asshole and 2) will you work really, really hard. The informationals (we call them coffee chats) are integral to both. They throw a ton of additional stuff at you when you're super busy with school and exams and see if you handle it well and still get decent grades (no non-disclosure policy at my school, ~25ish non-target but still a dozen or so bankers).
Interesting points to take away. Thanks for that. I guess it'll depend on what banks you get second rounds with, too, as they may be your first choice at that point.
Good post. To those asking why don't you tell every bank their your top choice...this is a really bad idea. Most MBA recruiting teams are comprised of alumni from that business school, and most business schools put people on every bank on the Steet. People talk and can figure out pretty easily where they stand relative to others. If you tell everyone they are your top choice, it gets around.
Based on your informational description, I'd assume you were close enough to be in NYC every Friday. If you go to a school further away (Booth, Darden, Tuck, etc...) you'll do your informationals via the phone and banks will make multiple visits to your school.
Great post. From all I've been able to read on here I have never heard of someone getting a summer associate in ib or mc from a non-target 100+ ranked mba program. Sounds damn near impossible honestly. CBS sounds awesome and I've heard nothing but great things about their program.
100+ is laughably implausible. USC was probably the lowest-ranked pedigree of any of the bankers that I met during MBA recruitment, even at smaller MM banks. If you're not in at a top 25 MBA program (and even there, you need to be wise about which one you're choosing), breaking into banking at that level barring some kind of substantial banking or transactional experience in your day to day is going to be VERY difficult.
Look I agree. That's why I said I've never heard of a ib summer associate coming from a non-target mba program. I would think maybe it happens if they had ib experience before going to a non-target mba but doing that wouldn't make much sense for them. I know of a summer associate from a mba program in florida but I have no clue if it is for a front office role.
TechBanking2016 thank you for the write up (SB awarded for your efforts). Some questions:
1.) What made you decide on Investment Banking? Did you come from a non-Finance background?
2.) For someone with a Finance background who is trying to break into banking but in a non-Finance role...at what point in your opinion is it time to seriously consider an MBA?
The reason I ask this is because it appears that this may be my only route to IB as Analyst roles are largely dominated by undergrads without any full-time experience (discounting internships)
3.) How much has your MBA coursework prepared you for an IB career?
Thanks
Thanks for the SB.
I'm from finance background but in a different role (can't go into detail since it is sort of rare). The reason I want to do banking is while I want to stay in finance (not doing day to day operation work in industry), I feel I enjoy more relationship building than analytical work. So essentially I want to be a "salesman" in long-run and that's basically what investment banker does.
I don't quite get what you mean. If you are in a non-banking role for couple of years already, the only chance to break into banking is via MBA. So you should consider it seriously if you are serious about doing banking.
I'm from finance background so it is less relevant. But I do think the mandatory accounting/corp finance classes cover most technical areas in interview. Other leadership classes maybe useful when you hit the desk but I can't comment for now.
Thanks for the info. This "top choice" game seems kind of bizarre to me and not in line with previous advice I've read, which is to tell everyone they are your top choice and then decide once the offers come in.
it may be different in analyst level recruiting and that's why I want to write this post to make sure people know the difference.
Not even in banking and I can confirm that at least in my city (Houston) all the bankers talk. Telling everyone they are your top choice is absolutely a poor decision and my best guess is it would result in zero offers.
TechBanking2016
Thanks for doing this. It would be great if you did a follow up in two years -"My experience of two year as an Ass in banking."
Also - I've seen on LinkedIn that people from 10-20 ranked B-Schools make it to BB banking post MBA. Must be few and far between, but there are people from the lower end of the Top 20 schools in BB Banking post MBA. Just do a quick LinkedIn search.
Banking isn't that competitive anymore at the MBA level. ~90% of people who apply for IB got offers at Kellogg last year, as opposed to ~50% for consulting. Nearly all the people who failed were internationals with subpar english skills. I assume similar figures at Columbia. Even at Schools in the 8-15 range, I'd expects 60-75% success rate for IB. If you're at a school in 10-20, you should feel confident you can get an offer (albeit maybe not as GS), if you put in the work.
/............
This is not a fair comparison. I can say in general 90% of MBA from top business school get offer from the industries they like (except PE/VC/IM) but it doesn't make a lot of sense since it is much more difficult to get in top firms in that industry. So getting into top BB/EB is no less difficult than getting into MBB.
In addition, consulting firms usually send out a lot of interview invites to artificially inflate the base number and make the success rate low. I had interview invites from all MBB but didn't attend any consulting events or even show interest in consulting. Many people I know recruiting for banking are also doing consulting for "fun" because it doesn't require networking.
The only areas are significantly more competitive are PE/VC/IM.
Were internationals generally unsuccessful in landing any offers or was it just the 10% handicapped by their language skills?
Recently went through this process at H/S this past fall and can confirm that the post is accurate for 2015-2016 IB recruiting. The advantage to going to H/S is IB is very unpopular compared to PE, tech, start-ups so I found that we didn't have to do nearly as many informationals before first round interviews.
I think the level of technicality of an interview depends on the interviewer and on the school. Schools known for finance (Wharton) I would think could have a more technical interview or less depending on if the interviewer just assumes they know how to do a DCF, etc. Whereas schools known for general management may get more or less technical for the opposite reason.
Banks definitely care about MBA brand, and the importance of attending every event and making a positive name for yourself BEFORE interviews start cannot be overstated.
Anyone has experience regarding the age profiles of post MBA IB candidates? Do banks have strict rules on ages for recruiting Associate or other levels? I will be 34 with 6+ years M&A experience at an mid-market local M&A advisory.
From my experience, the average age tends to be around 28-29. There were quite a few who were 32-34 while recruiting. I would not worry about age, as long as you can form relationships and have commonality.
Sorry for the highjack but seems like you joined Banking "late"... If you did, do you mind if I pm u with some questions?
All of the above sounds accurate for Stern as well. I'll address the question about expectations: everyone is choosing associates based on senior leadership potential. That's different, though, from thinking that 100% of associates will become MDs. If we choose 10 associates in a class, maybe we expect 2 to become MDs. But we don't know which 2, so we choose all 10 with the expectation that any of them could become good senior bankers...and they all have to at least convince us that they want to be senior bankers.
TechBanking2016 Also, are there any groups that are more competitive than others? Do you need to recruit differently if you want to get into the M&A group vs. the Tech group vs. Consumer Retail group?
M&A (if there is such group) and TMT are generally most competitive.
Thanks for all who've contributed to the post thus far, and TechBanking2016 for initiating this discussion. This is especially useful for me as I am starting to learn the ropes of IB recruiting at an MBA program. I go to the school part-time in Chicago (Kellogg/Booth) and am starting to learn/plan to tackle the internship recruiting for Summer'17. Based on what I've learnt so far in the thread and past readings: 1. Internship presentations will begin sometime around Oct'16 - Nov'16. 2. Followed by informational interviews in Nov'16-Dec'16. 3. Followed by actual interviews in Jan'17.
I work in finance in a highly analytical/numbers-driven/strategy role (think modeling, retail portfolio strategy development, CCAR, stress testing, BASEL capital quantification, etc) but I really enjoy capital markets, investing and learning about events that are shaping/disrupting the industry and feel IB would be a great fit in these regards. I am not oblivious to the fact that there possibly will be little strategy/creative oriented work in first couple of years and will be more "template driven" but I am okay with paying my dues in trying to get to my long term career goals. I'd really like to get some of your's opinions that having gone through the process recently, is the "part time stigma" still widely present? How about in midwest? Any advise in terms of tackling these internship recruiting for Summer Associate? I know I'll probably need to coerce (beg?!) by career center for allowing me to participate in internship recruiting, so any advise there will be helpful too! ;-)
Any insight to recruiting from the Kellogg 1YR accelerated program for full time positions? I'm currently in a transaction advisory roll at a Big 4, and wondering if it's possible to make the jump to bulge bracket IB post MBA without the advantage of the summer internship between 1YR and 2YR?
Banking hiring is pretty much all done from their summer internship pool at this point. 1Y's do well in consulting FT recruiting, but banking FT would be very difficult. You can email the IB club president co-head and ask him for further guidance, they are great guys and very responsive. You can find them on the kellogg IB club website (Don't know if I can post names here).
Imagine you have not recruited for a consulting internship in your first year. Is it much harder to recruit for consulting FT than it is for consulting internship (in order words, what percentage of available spots at MBB are taken by (returning) interns?)
It's actually easier if you didn't recruit. Unless you were just on the cusp, there's a bit of a bias against you if you did poorly during internship recruiting.
Also, they take quite a bit in full time hiring (especially McKinsey), but majority of hiring (2/3 or so) is now done from the internship pool at the MBA level. Some firms are more severe than others ( Deloitte took 90% from internship pool). This is a newer trend, and full time used to be bigger.
@opsdude1" since you seem very educated regarding MBA recruiting and post-MBA career in general. What's your view on IB analysts/associates at top BB undertaking an MBA ? Do they usually follow on in BB or look for greener fields ? Does it make sense if planning to stay into IBD anyway ? Are they very relevant for top PE/VC/HF recruiting ? thanks in advance
At Kellogg, former bankers overwhelming are trying to leave finance (either to MBB, corp fin at a cool company, tech product management, or leadership development program at a cool company). A small minority go for PE/HF. I honestly can't think of one who went back to banking. This trend might be different in more finance focused schools though.
I would assume interviewing for MBB (+ Deloitte) AND for banking is not hardly realistic? People tend to differ in opinions whether one needs to network excessively for consulting.
Very few people interview for banking and consulting. Both take full committments. Back-up industries require MUCH less networking/prep (Corp 500 jobs). Quite a few people tried to recruit for both, but by the end of October, had picked one.
This is not true in CBS. I know more than 5-10 banking people and 5-10 PE/IM people including myself had interview with MBB without attending any consulting recruit events. I'm not recommending but it is definitely doable if you don't travel during winter break (you only need a week for banking interview prep so have 1-2 weeks for case prep).
My personal take for case interview is that you either get it or not. The first 5-10 case mock have most benefit while 30+ case has diminishing return.
However, one logistical issue is consulting first round usually happens during banking final round days so you may have to choose if you have too many banking final round going on.
TechBanking2016 I'd be interested in hearing the "hit rate"(interview to job conversions) on those interviews. The goal here isn't to get interviews, it's to get jobs, so any other metric is irrelevant.
OK, question at this point.
If I dont' have a banking internship at this point, is there any pathway at all left to IB full time?
Very unlikely if u don't have relevant experience pre-MBA. There are still some banks hiring for summer though. Don't give up so early!
Any idea how to find them? I can't find any postings which are still up. At this point I've just been cold-calling micro boutiques.
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