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Current IBankers: What would you do if a summer candidate reneged another offer to sign with your firm?

BBEGal's picture
Rank: Baboon | 156

There was an earlier thread that mentioned more and more people felt that it was OK to renege an offer, especially in a recruiting timeline that's so butchered and prolonged (Apparently March - Present). Coming from an undergraduate student's POV, it seems that it would make sense to take an offer at a better firm. That being said, the only thing stopping many students in this position is the fear of losing both offers and the other bank finding out.

I wanted to ask any people in industry if they've ever experienced a situation where a summer analyst, FT analyst, or even associate reneged an offer at another bank to join your firm or vice versa. Were you aware that they had already signed an offer during the interview process? Did you feel that it was wrong of the candidate to do this? Was it the other bank that communicated with you? How did it play out?

Looking back, I can remember one defined situation where I was "that person" who called a colleague at another bank to inform them that a candidate reneged an offer from us to sign with them. Before I get attacked, here are the details: A student was interviewing with us for a summer analyst position in one of the more recent, early timelines, and he did really well through the interview process. After calling him to notify him of his offer, he requested to call numerous times to have any remaining questions answered. It was about 3 hours total in time spent on the phone, and he ended up signing on the last day of the exploding offer.

Three days later, he emailed me "Hello XXXX, I wanted to inform you that I have signed an offer with XXX firm. Due to personal circumstances, I will not be joining your firm next summer." No apology, no explanation, no response to my email when I asked him for more specifics. Even if we "don't care" because analysts are essentially replaceable, it's irking to invest so much time answering questions and even interviewing just for something like this to happen. I was always told to never renege and a contract is a contract, but it seems this has become less meaningful. Thus, I ended up calling a friend, who reported it to their HR, and the candidate was left with no offers on the table from either firm. I'm sure word broke out about this to other firms as I'm in a regional branch where we're all interconnected.

Comments (230)

Aug 1, 2019

Glad you could get that off your chest. Must have been weighing on you. Still wouldn't have done that to some kid you barely knew.

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Funniest
Aug 1, 2019

I mean are you proud you did this?

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Aug 1, 2019

I'm not proud of it by any means, but I don't believe I'm in the wrong for it. At the end of the day, I wasn't the first person he reached out to, and in the end, it was only my choice to inform someone else. There had to be a cascade of effects for him to get reneged.

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Aug 1, 2019

You seem to be trying to distance yourself from this but it's at least partially on you for screwing over this kid

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Aug 2, 2019

You sir, are a classic piece of shit.

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Aug 3, 2019

Oh my goodness you had to spend extra time answering someone's questions while recruiting them. It's not like that's literally your job or anything if you're involved with recruiting. Still sad.

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Aug 5, 2019

What you did was 1000x worse and more embarrassing than the poor kid who just took the better offer at a better firm. Shameful.

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Aug 1, 2019

That's quite a dick move (imho).

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Aug 1, 2019

Before everyone calls the OP a jerk, keep in mind that by allowing that SA to enter the industry you're effectively blocking someone else out. There may have been a very good kid who just missed the cutoff because of this SA who stole his spot initially (before he lost both spots).

I mean do you want this SA working alongside you? I hate the recruitment timeline that's been implemented more than anyone, but this problem of mismatching offer dates has always existed and it didn't make reneging ok five years ago...

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Aug 1, 2019

Sooo let me get this straight.... beating out another candidate for an offer = stealing their spot and breaking into an industry when others fall short = blocking someone out? Whole rebuttal seems half baked. The kid is obviously good enough to have a spot evidenced by receiving two offers. OP shouldn't have stabbed a rando in the back for taking an offer at a better firm. OP should also not care so much about career decisions made by 20 y/os they barely know.

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Aug 1, 2019

Yes, there are a limited number of spots... So if you give to one guy, someone else is effectively blocked out.

The SA was not acting with respect and arguably received what was coming to him.

Think about this in reverse. An MD gives you an offer to work as an analyst for him, then he reneges to offer to someone else with no explanation. That MD acted unethically In the same way that the SA did and I wouldn't hold it against someone for warning others about the MD.

Banks hire SA's to figure out who they want to take on full time. Would you want to take on this SA full time? He sounds disrespectful and deceitful (and dumb) to me. The OP probably helped her friends out by pointing out the flaws of the SA before they wasted a spot on a disrespectful candidate.

And yes, some other kid who was on the cusp probably just got into the industry. I hope it was a good kid.

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Aug 1, 2019

He didnt really stab him in the back, more of stabbed him im the front

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Aug 4, 2019
Texan:

Before everyone calls the OP a jerk, keep in mind that by allowing that SA to enter the industry you're effectively blocking someone else out. There may have been a very good kid who just missed the cutoff because of this SA who stole his spot initially (before he lost both spots).

I mean do you want this SA working alongside you? I hate the recruitment timeline that's been implemented more than anyone, but this problem of mismatching offer dates has always existed and it didn't make reneging ok five years ago...

Are you ever involved with recruitment/interview of any members of the management team at Portfolio Cos? Do you feel the same way when hiring for your PortCos?

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Aug 4, 2019

I have not been involved in hiring for portfolio company management teams. However I think at the management team level, reneging on an offer would be a much more serious thing. Typically those contracts have non-compete provisions in them anyway, which isn't applicable at the Analyst/Associate level. If someone signed to join as CFO of a company I was managing, then cancelled to join a competitor, that would be a pretty major issue.

My comments were more oriented toward keeping everyone's thoughts in perspective about the net effect of what the OP did rather than just thinking about the SA in isolation while ignoring the benefit to the next person in line. I don't think I would interfere with someone who reneged because I'd just be creating an enemy who I couldn't do business with later. I likewise don't think what the OP did was prudent to be honest, but I don't think everyone calling her evil is fair either. At the management level, I'd expect people to be more professional than how the SA acted anyway.

Why do you ask about this in the context of management team hiring?

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Aug 1, 2019

Whether or not people think OP was in the wrong or not, it's an important reminder about the dangers of reneging and I think people on this board are super quick to recommend 'take the offer, you can always renege later'. I've heard of kids from my school who end up in this situation where they lose both offers, and I know a kid who reneged, and, the first day at his 'better' bank, they informed him that he wouldn't be getting a return offer because he essentially got the SA position under a lie.

No matter who you think is in the wrong or how much you hate the recruiting process and its timeline, be very careful with reneging. You're scorning the bank who you're reneging on and hoping they don't decide to get revenge, and it's very easy for them to throw a wrench into your entire career.

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Aug 1, 2019

If you do reneg, make sure you don't tell the first bank which bank you did sign with - just say personal reasons and shut the fuck up if they press you for details. Don't update your LinkedIn with "Incoming SA at Better Bank" either. If you're dumb enough to do either of those things you probably deserve to lose your offer.

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Aug 1, 2019

One of the kids I know who lost both offers did make that mistake and told the bank he was reneging, but the kid who was told he wouldn't get a return offer on his first day didn't tell the bank he reneged upon.

He doesn't even know how the bank he reneged on found out where he was going- his theory is the career center (he thinks the bank he reneged on told the career center to keep an eye on him, they figured out where he was working somehow, and then told the bank), but it also could have been LinkedIn or something.

My point if you don't directly tell them where you are going, they can still probably figure it out.

Aug 1, 2019

Don't really have much to say on this topic, but I wanted to let you know that you are such a beach.

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Most Helpful
Aug 1, 2019

Understand it's frustrating to have invested time and effort into hiring an SA and potentially emotionally investing in them as well, but it seems a little vindictive to have subsequently gone out of your way to inform his / her new firm of that they reneged on a contract with your own firm. This is literally just a kid trying to maximise their career opportunities and you've single-handedly imposed a large obstacle in their likely well intentioned path.

Personally, if I was at firm X and knew firm Y had a better rep on the street, and a prospective SA reneged on an offer in order to move up the ladder, I wouldn't hold it against them at all - is exactly what I would do myself.

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Aug 2, 2019

There is risk and reward when it comes to trying to maximize career opportunities. This kid took a risk and it didn't work out for him.

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Aug 1, 2019

Maybe you're not as effective as recruiting as you think you are?

I hope what you did makes you feel good about yourself. I doubt you understand how 'at will' employment really works. It's not a binding contract that forces you to work somewhere. One day when you get screwed over by a company and realize that they don't care about you, then maybe you'll start to understand.

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Aug 1, 2019

So let me get this straight. Banks start doing this retarded acccelerated timeline where some banks wrap up by April and other banks keep recruiting and interviewing into next year January. Then banks complain that students, who are trying to maximize their own self-interest and careers, are reneging?

This is just going to lead to candidates not telling you which firm they've signed with - if this candidate was smart, he/she should have just told you "for personal reasons, I cannot work at your firm. Thanks, XXX." They even had the courtesy of telling you the reason they reneged and which bank they were signing with, and you used that information to potentially ruin his career.

So don't be surprised if your bank ends up getting more renegs with no information.

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Aug 1, 2019

Damn dude he is a fucking a college student and you got so butthurt about it? You must be quite weak emotionally, like "cry when you get home because someone flipped you off in traffic and it ruined your day" level. Stuff like this happens. I honestly think this was really mean to do. Yeah, he reneged but like you know very little about him or his personal life, where he came from, how hard he worked, etc. You seriously might have just fucked up someones career just so you could feel "powerful" or "in control." Well did it work? He's a fucking kid, homie, no need to do stuff like this to someone.

Edit: From your original post, it seemed more like you really led the charge on this, which as someone in an analyst position, I would see as a bad thing to do. From your follow-up comment below, I see that is clearly not entirely the case, and apologize for calling you out so harshly--having gone through recruiting from a non-target, I always think back to what a struggle it was and if someone went out of their way to fuck me over, I'd hate them for it. However, I still do think you had a role, but not worth how harshly you are attacked for on here (attacks from myself included)--I do get that you were just doing your job. I still see it as a bad thing to have done (any role you play) knowing the consequences on the kid. Idk, don't listen to me, I'm just some dude on a forum. To each their own.

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Aug 1, 2019

a) it was stupid of this kid to tell you where he was going..hopefully lesson learned
b) you are an ass for ruining his career
c) you can always goto candidates 3, 4, 5, 6...so no other candidates were "blocked" because this kid found a better offer.

if you don't want people to reneg...then you should try becoming a better firm...where people don't want to reneg...and also, don't give exploding offers that block your candidates from exploring other options...this makes YOU the asshole.

just google it...you're welcome

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Aug 1, 2019

100% agree with this. You and your friend are both an absolute POS for ruining the start of this kids' career. This kid wasn't an idiot... he was being as honest and genuine with you as he could and you went around him to screw him over.

This stuff happens all the time - especially at the higher levels. You just screwed over some naive undergrad because you lack normal social awareness and wanted to feel "powerful".

I hope karma comes back your way, asshole.

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Aug 1, 2019

Eh in this case it was kind of a dick move, but one I wouldn't hold against you, because the kid deserved it. I'm firmly on the side that banks will fuck you over if it benefits them, and reneging is just turning the tables. I think reneging is a shitty thing to do, but I wouldn't fault someone for it. but this kid was an idiot. If you renege, you don't inform the firm you're reneging on of the firm you're going to. You say it was personal reasons or something like that, and you don't update your LinkedIn until you get a return offer at the end of your SA gig. On top of that, this kid blatantly wasted time. He's too much of an idiot to belong in this industry. And rather than filter him out through interviews, he was filtered out through this.

Array

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Aug 1, 2019

Imagine the amount of time and effort it took for him to land a deserving job. You hit him below the belt. I am not judging but this speaks about your personality. If you were in his place, you would have done the same.
I hope you sleep well at night.

Get busy living or get busy dying.

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Controversial
Aug 1, 2019

First of all since I'm getting so much shit for this, let me clear things up:

I think the first thing to note was that I wasn't the first person to take action at my firm. There's no direct cause/effect relationship in what I did, and HR was the first to know and subsequently one of the analysts, and they were the first to reach out to both the student's new firm and the college campus. The university's career center has always wanted to be transparent with us since it's an innate pipeline built into the region, and they always request for any information like this. When I had gone through recruiting myself, the punishments for reneging were always severe to the point of being blocked from OCR.

To address the comment about early recruiting timelines, it was early relative to when we used to recruit. Our area has historically been on the latter half of the timeline, recruiting in the fall. That year, we only accelerated by 1 month or so because we're one of the firms that "If you really want to land a spot with us, you'll wait for us" and were one of the last firms to have recruited. To have an exploding offer at the end doesn't make it much of an exploding offer - there were only so few firms left on the table.

I think people don't understand the nature of the region I'm in. Many of the comments here are saying it was a "power" or "control" move. Nowhere did I explicitly say I told my friend to relay the information to anyone; I purely informed him that someone at our firm signed with his after signing with us. Furthermore, our HR's are all interconnected across the region, and it's common practice that students that renege an offer end up penalized - either through rescinding an offer or return.

I don't believe that you're allowed to say "I fucked up his entire career" because no one has that power. In the end of the day, I wasn't the once who chose to rescind his other offer - it was HR. Our HR has rescinds multiple offers for reneging, and that's a common practice among all firms in our area, EB or BB. Furthermore, HR and even some of the analysts will always ask "Are you currently in the process with other firms?" It's purely informational in nature to ensure that a candidate hears back in the fastest time possible, so there's no point in lying about it.

Out of everyone in the picture, it was career services that took the most action, and this had nothing to do with me. Our standard procedure is to inform the college campus that someone from their campus has signed an offer with us for alumni recruiting and firm events- it makes sense that we also have to inform them when a candidate chooses not to come. After our HR called the university, career services sent each of us interviewers an individualized apology and then detailed us a list of actions/precautions they are taking, including notifying the other firm. Furthermore, it explicitly stated that "Students are informed of the consequences of reneging an offer during the OCR process. We've strictly adhered to these policies as we have incidents every year." The candidate was obviously informed about policies so regardless if I said anything or not, he would have faced some form of consequence from both his career services and firm

Everyone also says that "firm X has a better rep than firm Y" or improve your firm. We've come top 3 in league tables for probably the last decade, and we've always had 90% placement into top funds for those that are interested in buy side. Even if you were to renege from a Tier 4 to a Tier 1 firm, it wouldn't be "fine". I don't think anyone here can argue that our firm is "worse," and we still get hundreds of applicants from the school. Prestige has little to do with this.

I understood that I would get a lot of backlash, but at least provide some insight into personal experiences lol. I know for a fact that many people have been in this situation, and I was asking for other personal experiences. We have long held steadfast to our own reneging policies - we do not extend offers to people who've signed, and firms have always gone out of their way to notify us as well. It's not the first, and it's not the last.

I don't think anyone here disagrees that there are "consequences" to reneging, and this is probably the nightmare scenario for any SA. As mentioned above, why even mention the other firm's name? I agree that I'm more "emotional" relative to men in the business, but it was more so for respect. If you don't even bother responding to a follow up email, it comes off as rude, and it wasn't respecting the time I invested. It could've been a combination of the downturn work environment and other things as well, but I don't feel proud nor bad for what I did. It would've happened regardless just due to the natural landscape of the industry here. Also, what's the point of extending offers if reneging exists? I might as well recommend every student to continue interviewing "for fun" after they've signed.

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Aug 1, 2019

I've been in your previous threads, and you're super informative so I can't imagine you're intentionally trying to hurt someone - but, I think that you're at least 10% to blame if not more. Sure, you had the "power" to inform HR, but you didn't have to... you could've let someone else handle it but you were one of the people who did reach out.

I'm not even in a position where I can renege because I have no offers. But, I have heard the endless lectures on how you can lose offers and recruiting opportunities. I've even heard that all banks would be notified, but I think it's a bluff. How much "power" or "control" do you honestly have since you seem to know the process well?/ I've never spent more than 20 minutes on a call so 3 hours means you're either stupidly generous or you're the head recruiter or something

Array

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Aug 1, 2019

To many people's disheartening on this thread, I was the campus recruiter for associates and co-campus recruiter for analysts. We'd come to campus with an HR representative who would vet resumes, but we'd do most of the selections for calls and supers. It's also why I'm so closely tied with campus recruiting and honors programs. If you're recruiting from my alma mater, chances are we've had a run in at least once.

Once again, I'm not trying to say I didn't play a role since I obviously took some action, but I think it's more common than people think. I also think it's viewed differently when you're an analyst versus you're approaching senior levels. Clearly from some of the reactions above, there are people that were in a similar position or have done something similar.

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Aug 1, 2019

If a bank can rescind an offer for any reason, a candidate should be able to reneg an offer for any reason. It's as simple as that in my books.

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Aug 1, 2019

THIS

s.kang12:

If a bank can rescind an offer for any reason, a candidate should be able to reneg an offer for any reason. It's as simple as that in my books.

1) You started a chain reaction of events that could ONLY cause harm.
2) You were not injured in any way...recruiting is part of your job, you can extend an offer to the next person on the list, and they are indeed all replaceable.
3) the chain of events caused by your action probably resulted in this kid getting blacklisted. Are you happy about that?
4) the reason you provide justifications is because you don't want to feel bad about hurting another person. that makes you a lousy person.

you felt justified in taking an action that could only cause harm. If instead you just extended an offer to the next kid in the list, everybody would have ended up happy. Instead, you chose poor judgement.

Hopefully, you will learn from this and have more empathy for other people next time around.

just google it...you're welcome

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Aug 1, 2019

Also my takeaway from this is that if you do reneg, tell no one. Don't tell your career center, don't tell the other bank, don't tell anyone you know in finance. Just show up day 1 and you'll be good.

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Aug 1, 2019

Yeah, this is the only way. But, I think the chances it slips is probably pretty high - imagine drunk texting an ex bragging, but then waking up to find that she snitched and you're donezo

Array

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Aug 1, 2019

Fully fleshing out the context doesn't negate the fact that you took the kid who tried to do the right thing out of the running for something he certainly put countless hours of effort into. By the same token, you did what you thought was the right thing - simply put: like his actions had consequences, so do yours. It is on you to accept those, but don't go rationalizing away the reality of the outcome.

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Aug 1, 2019
BBEGal:

There's no direct cause/effect relationship in what I did

You're equivocating. You're the guy in the firing squad who says "my bullet probably wasn't the cause of death." You wouldn't have made the call if you didn't want any consequences for the analyst. Do you stand by making the call or not?

Aug 1, 2019
BBEGal:

it was more so for respect

You abuse the word respect the same way mafia jerkoffs do lol

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Aug 2, 2019

You must be fun at parties.

There's no nobility in poverty.

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  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Aug 2, 2019

You should have explained the situation much better in your op.

You painted a completely different picture originally and ofc people connect the dots with some imagination...

Still, you, hr and OCR are.. not nice

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Aug 1, 2019

You're sensitive as fuck

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Aug 1, 2019

Complete dick move. Who cares if he reneges on your offer, you likely have 900 other candidates to choose from and I am guessing they are all pretty close in skill set.

At the same time, screw that other bank for dumping the kid because he cancelled your offer. He basically said "I like you more than them" and he got dumped for it. People like you and them are one of the main reason this industry is cra to work in. "I think I am the greatest and if you hint that I am not I am going to throw a fit and burn your house down".

It's crazy to me. In a profession where you ask to perform a service for someone up to 200 times and hope to win 5-10 times at most, you get upset because one college kid does you dirty. You must be one of the lucky ones that doesn't have to worry about where their next nut comes from if you have time to waste on this..... along with taking the time to post something as dumb as this

It almost seems impossible..... but unfortunately its likely true in this field.

Hope that kid is a big CEO some day and just throws it down your throat on a big deal.

But yes, likely natural selection if the kid was green enough to state which bank he was going to.....

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Aug 1, 2019

I don't think there's an actual argument that says what she did was out of the way in terms of time spent. It probably took her 1 or 2 minutes to call her friend and send a short email - could've done it on the toilet for all we know.

I think as @s.kang12 mentioned, just don't tell the firm you're reneging, and even be cautious telling your close friends. Offers from great firms travel like wildfire on campuses so chances are it's going to slip. Everyone knows people renege offers- if you're the one to get dinged for it, then you're either an idiot or super unlucky. For every person that does get punished like this, there are at least 10 that live perfectly fine. In his case, the dude got the worst combination of idiocy and unluckiness - he got an offer from a great firm (tier 1 EB or BB) based on what I've seen, but he probably was splitting hairs and overthought the decision. he also happened to piss off the wrong person that runs the whole damn show. Was just unfortunate.

The other big takeaway from this is just how many different personalities are in banking. So many people here are so quick to dumpster her, but they forget she's clearly in a position to do whatever she wants to - this thread might've led her to just dump every resume on the desk because she's emotional, with no consequence. There's another version of her at very bank on the street so it's just best to be cautious. I think this also goes to show how much the culture varies in each group. If she's working in a group like Evercore or GS and formally runs recruiting, then you're about to be boned when it comes to non-work stuff. I'm sure she's a great career banker, but you would never want to hang outside of work.

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Aug 1, 2019

I'm surprised people are so angry about a bank/banker reacting to getting reneged on- as a college kid going through the process, it's easy to empathize with the kid in this scenario, but try to understand the firm's side of things. They spend hours interviewing/recruiting you, they give you an offer, you accept, everyone is happy. From a practical point of view, they stop recruiting for that spot (and likely reject whoever was in line behind you to get the offer), and move on. This throws a wrench in things when you subsequently renege, and they now need to go to a kid they rejected and be like 'hey you still interested?'

Banks aren't going to give you an offer, see a kid with a GPA that is .1 higher, and then pull your offer to give to that kid. Why should the inverse not be the same? Accepting an offer means you should be done recruiting. It's one thing to try to negotiate out your offer deadline or be transparent about interviewing at another firm you are interested in, but to me it seems scummy to accept their offer but not actually value that.

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Aug 1, 2019

a good question is also was he transparent with the other firm as well? I know many firms would not interview a candidate if he had told them that he already signed an offer. I've heard that signing an offer implies that you're done - if you respond to an interview notif with "I signed an offer with this firm", they're probably gonna reply with ty and move on to the next person. Nowhere is it implied that you're going to continue recruiting when you've signed already.

Array

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Aug 1, 2019

Agreed. Every firm I've ever interviewed has also asked where I stand with the recruiting process and if I've received any offers, and, the one firm I interviewed at once I had an offer, their immediate next question after I said I had an offer was whether I had declined or was still considering. I assume this means you would need to have lied about the other offer at this point because I doubt a firm would interview you if you admitted to already accepting a different offer, so it makes a little more sense why the firm you are reneging and going to would still be angry because it means you lied to them likely.

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Aug 2, 2019

I think it is also scummy when people spend hours interviewing and prepping for interviews, go through multiple rounds to never hear back from the bank again.

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Aug 2, 2019

THIS. OP I'm not adding anything new here by saying that you're the worst. Must suck to see a mirror.

Aug 1, 2019

Maybe I'm a bit too empathetic, but this put a sour taste in my mouth during my morning coffee. You even mention how replaceable these lower-level team members are, which is likely very accurate for your firm. I'm sure he 'blocked' someone else out of a spot, but I'm also a strong proponent of competition/survival of the fittest, and the spoils belong to the victor. He could have gone about it in a better way, but he's a 20-year old kid who likely worked hard to get to his university/multiple BB offers. I hope you sleep well knowing that you went out of your way to hamper someone else's career. Maybe try using your sensitivity to understand other people's situations - it may help your recruiting.

I also hope that he happens to be a WSO user and reads this thread. Would be a shame if he notified your HR team

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Aug 1, 2019

You've got some bad karma coming to you.

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Aug 1, 2019

Regional BB: We stop pursuing candidates who have signed with another bank, full stop. If a candidate has an offer but it hasn't exploded yet, and we like that candidate enough, we may move the process up to accommodate. We wouldn't bother interviewing someone if they had to renege, and we do ask. If they don't tell, we find out.

Just to help students out, don't try and renege in regional offices. We will find out where you have offers and/or got hired even if you don't tell anyone. It not only hurts you but can certainly get your school in trouble (bank HRs report this to Campus Recruiting) and have seen banks blacklist schools where people renege, just like schools blacklist banks that break their campus recruiting rules.

Bottom line, find a place that you like, try and get an offer there, and if you accept just stop. The grass is greener mentality will not serve you well over the long run in finance.

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Aug 1, 2019

the whole point is that exploding offers before other firms even make offers is a lousy way to force the process.

just google it...you're welcome

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Aug 1, 2019

Yes, agreed. We don't push the envelope to recruit early, but if our peer BB/EB firms start their interviewing process early, we have to go at the same time otherwise will lose all of our candidates to this pressure.

Aug 2, 2019
Synergy_or_Syzygy:

The grass is greener mentality will not serve you well over the long run in finance.

Oh yes it will. If you're not one of the 10% or so that spend their entire career in the same firm, it's highly likely you'll get to the top far faster by going where the opportunity is. Companies trying to say otherwise are full of shit. Ask yourself how many times you've seen a good internal candidate for a director position passed over for an external hire.

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Aug 2, 2019

Fair point and you're absolutely right. Moving companies strategically can definitely be a good career decision. I was thinking more of the mentality of "wow it really sucks here, it must be so much better over there."

Aug 1, 2019

I think that many people here overlook look the fact that she's not the only person who's done this - she at least has the balls to say that she played a role. You guys say she felt the need to be "powerful" or "controlling," but the facts are she was in a position of power. Everyone here is trying to shame her and belittle her to realize what she did was wrong, but calling someone a POS, bitch, or whatever noun does little to help the situation. You're grown ass men with full-time jobs, which means you're already disconnected from this situation. But for many of us undergrads, we're looking at this thread saying "wow, everyone here is a piece of shit." Not to mention, I doubt you're teaching her a lesson by calling her a dick - you're probably borderline pissing her off, which means that the people undergoing recruiting right now will take the blunt of the emotion.

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Aug 1, 2019

No... we are flagging that this is unacceptable behavior so people like you (undergrads) do not have this happen to you...

    • 6
Aug 1, 2019

I agree. I don't understand what's the benefit of bashing the shit out of OP. I'm sure the first three or so comments were enough, but is this really necessary? Even the dude who called her emotional and sensitive went back to edit his comment - glad to know some adults were sensible.

Like I said above, I'm an undergrad as well that's recruiting. I'm scrolling through profiles here seeing "analyst" over and over again, so it makes sense you guys are pissed because you were in that same situation a month ago. But, one of the only associates here seemed to say that it's common practice in regional BB's. She's had some pretty informative comments in a different thread, and she clearly wants to help people - but I think it was just a mistake to post the last section lol

    • 1
Aug 1, 2019

Reneging is a cuck move. The kid should have asked for an extra 3 days to make a decision if he wanted to wait to hear what the other firm was going to say. Or called up the other firm and told them that he needs to hear back before the day that the offer he had exploded or he was going to accept another offer.

Edit: what op did was also a cuck move. overall totally cucked situation.

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Aug 1, 2019

The kid never said how the process with the other bank went. Sometimes banks will just refuse to move up their time schedule for making a decision because they don't have time to make it early or they need more time to decide. Maybe the kid asked the other bank for more time, and they said no so he decided to accept with the understanding he would renege if the other bank came back to him afterward.

Aug 2, 2019
famejranc:

Reneging is a cuck move. The kid should have asked for an extra 3 days to make a decision if he wanted to wait to hear what the other firm was going to say. Or called up the other firm and told them that he needs to hear back before the day that the offer he had exploded or he was going to accept another offer.

Edit: what op did was also a cuck move. overall totally cucked situation.

Please go punch yourself in the face for using cuck in a non-porn context. The only thing that makes me madder is when some twatbag uses "alpha / beta" in earnest. You heard some douchebag say this on a talk show and now you repeat it like a trained parrot.

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Aug 2, 2019

only a beta would get upset over as silly of a thing as this

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Aug 1, 2019

the part where you called up a person at another firm and tattled that someone reneged from your firm to go to theirs...which resulted in that person getting their offer (a job) declined...that sounds borderline illegal.

For the same reason that firms only confirm dates of employment during background checks....you have opened up yourself and your firm to liability in a lawsuit, for damaging the career of the harmed individual.

In general, any action taken that harms the employment of another person is grounds for a lawsuit....you are harming their ability to get a job and earn a living. you should know better...you do know better...you just don't care.

just google it...you're welcome

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Aug 1, 2019

Even though I'm in college, I think that this is a bit of a stretch... I'm sure she's been trained to handle situations like this, and I know for a fact that HR's at investment banks will often times do this since our career services has so many of these similar horror stories. she did mention that she wasn't the only person who reached out to folks at the other firm. Calling a dude up at another firm doesn't mean anything - I can be calling a friend up at another internship to shittalk, but it doesn't mean anything.

Array

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Aug 1, 2019

Agree this is a bit much. Like she mentioned, HR did reach out to one another, and career services also reached out. Regardless whether or not she played the key role in getting the guy rescinded, nothing here is illegal. I'm sure whatever BB/EB she works for is perfectly fine, and they'd love to keep her. For someone that claims to be a VP in S&T, this is super bullshit

Aug 1, 2019

if a SA reneged on my offer and thus opening up a spot (back when i had SAs) i would just make an offer to the next kid on the list. There are hundreds of kids (possibly thousands) who don't get offers just because there are limited spots. Any other action is retribution, and in my book, foul play. Just because other people do it, doesn't make it "ok".

this however is a case where if the exploding offer just had a later date that included when other firms had made offers, could have been avoided. Currently, candidates are forced to gamble on their career (what if they don't get an offer from the other firms? then they are totally fucked)

just google it...you're welcome

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Aug 2, 2019
faceslappingcompilation:

the part where you called up a person at another firm and tattled that someone reneged from your firm to go to theirs...which resulted in that person getting their offer (a job) declined...that sounds borderline illegal.

I was wondering about this part. Especially because his kid could have just said "never mind the offer, fuck you". They told in good faith where they were going and still got screwed.

Meanwhile all this butthurt control freak wailing and gnashing of teeth about reneged offers...there's a line of jackasses who you can call up and say "hey dickhead, it's your lucky day, another slot opened up, be here tomorrow morning at 7AM"....and they will.

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Aug 2, 2019

I don't think there would be a line out the door to work for this person if they knew how mean she could be. Who am I kidding, everyone on here is a masochist.

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Aug 1, 2019

So what's the take away? That's it's perfectly fine to renege?

Array

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Aug 1, 2019

Curious to see if you guys would bother to answer the questions on the first two paragraphs. If she didn't post that last blurb, this would be a completely different conversation.

Would like to see the true pros/cons of reneging with examples rather than a bunch of jerkoffs shitting on the OP

Aug 1, 2019

I think students vastly underestimate how connected people are in regional offices. There's an ethical point to debate, which is what people in this thread are stuck on, but at the end of the day, it's incredibly risky to renege and there is little reward (prestige?) This is not the tech industry where people hop around every year. Regional office investment banking is a dramatically personal affair.

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Aug 2, 2019

I don't think that there's little reward. I think that the kid must have really liked the other place better to have reneged. I've liked a lot of people on my job search, but I've really clicked with only a few of them. If you're working 80+ hour weeks you better love the people you work with or you'll burn out and quit earlier than you would have if you enjoyed your coworkers' company. The kid shouldn't be punished for having reneged after 3 days either. Sure, it's a tiny bit embarrassing to go to the waitlist after denying somebody, but people understand that they might not get the job if the employer waits 3 weeks to get back to a candidate.

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Aug 1, 2019

yes, i've had SAs and FTs renege (i was at a BB in the top 5 of most every list)...and it was zero issue...i just went to the next kid on the list.

retribution, when you are not really harmed, is spiteful and petty...and does not belong in this or any business.

just google it...you're welcome

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Aug 1, 2019

Were you in a HQ office (NY, HK, London) or a regional office?

I only ask because this classic HQ banker stereotype / myth of "hurr durr, Analysts aren't people, let's fuck them over at every opportunity" drives me insane.

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Aug 1, 2019

Don't renege. A senior at my semi target was in big trouble when OCR banned her from recruiting full time when she reneged. And it's easy for companies to find out - bulge brackets keep track of who goes where, and her company (CS/BAML/Barclays/Citi) didn't give her a full time offer after finding out

Array

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Aug 1, 2019

I wanted to reaffirm what @Synergy_or_Syzygy said. The majority of people on this thread are definitely in NY or even SF based on how they react, and they fail to understand the implications of a regional office. Unlike NY, these "smaller" offices aren't about the "pump and dump" mentality - we try to build real relationships that will last for years on end.

I've been at a solid BB (GS/MS/BAML) for more than half a decade, and I would say I have buddies at nearly every firm in our region - BB's and EB's included. Similarly, I keep in touch with all my previous analysts and associates, even if they chose to lateral to a different bank. We don't see many students renege offers - at most 1 per recruiting cycle, but we don't take it lightly. Standard protocol for us is to direct all calls to HR, but ever so often, I would get an email or a call asking if candidate X signed with our firm. Emails/calls like this are always red flags, and if a candidate signed with us by reneging another offer, we WILL rescind the offer. We always make sure that the whole process is transparent - we ask the candidate if he/she is in the process with any other firms (don't even ask to specify which firms), if he/she has any exploding offers, etc. We don't ask stupid questions like "have you signed" because we assume you haven't - if any firm knowingly interviews a candidate that has signed an offer, I don't even know what to say. I'm not defending the morality of OP's situation - I'm just saying that stuff like this happens almost every year in my area. I've received calls from people ranging from analysts to directors, so clearly it matters to even the senior members.

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Aug 1, 2019

I understand both sides - if this was general, on cycle recruiting, yeah whatever you just call the next kid on the list.

However, I was also heavily involved in group-specific recruiting (<10 person total group size, 1-2 analysts per incoming class) and yeah, that is a much more intimate process and if somebody accepts then reneges, that's very similar to what @Synergy_or_Syzygy outlined regarding regional office recruiting.

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Aug 1, 2019

but this kid reneged 3 DAYS later. WTF ???

just google it...you're welcome

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Aug 2, 2019

Oh yikes, I missed that part. Yeah, the kid was an idiot and not blameless too, but that's a pretty extreme overreaction IMO.

Aug 1, 2019

I've given this some more thought and after reading your defense, I definitely think you are a POS.

You came on this forum looking for someone to tell similar stories so that guilt would be lifted off your shoulders. Well guess what, this is something your emotional self is gonna have to deal with. The fact that you try to push this away, saying that you weren't responsible, is laughable. You set the wheels in motion. You were the ignition to this fire. You went out of your way with the sole purpose of making this kid's life just that much harder.

Sure, it sucks that you have spent time and hours on something that didn't result in anything, but every other candidate applying did the same thing for your firm and sucked it up when they weren't interviewed etc. You sound like my ex that would take forever to get ready, and when we were finally on our way out the door, half an hour late, she would yell at me for now having tied my shoes while waiting for her.

What really kills it for me is that you specifically explained the whole situation of regional banks. This guy probably roamed sites like this, that are heavily skewed towards NY/London, where it is okay to reneg. He's an undergrad with zero experience, so how was he supposed to know the code of conduct in your city? You, on the other hand. You knew this would look bad on him. You knew that HR around town is very connected. You knew that he could get blacklisted for his actions. Yet, instead of telling him, like an adult, or send him an email about the potential consequenses this could have, you pushed him in front of the train. Tell yourself all you want that you had nothing to do with the trouble he is in, but if things are as interconnected as you explained above, you may have set this guy's career back, severly.

I'd rather play russian roulette with a hallucinating @GoldenCinderblock than get afterwork drinks with someone as spiteful as you.

Sincerely,
QuiltEmerson

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Aug 1, 2019

Agree with the first parts of your response, but I think your part on regional banks is just wrong. If you look into the other threads, it seems she's based out of TX, where I would argue it's common knowledge that HR and schools are interconnected. As a college student, we're not idiots by any means. We're constantly told by HR over and over again the consequences of reneging - I've had mock interviews where the volunteer interviewer would tell me explicitly not to do it. If you're in TX, I assume that it's even more obvious that Houston recruiting is pretty intimate since there are in-state pipelines built out. To her defense, she did mention that she attempted to reach out and received no response or anything. At that point where he signed another offer and reneged, what's the point of even telling the dude the consequences - it's like telling a guy you're going to run him over before he runs him over. He can't just renege two firms to go back to the other, right?

That being said, it does suck for the candidate lol. I doubt he landed a spot anywhere because I hear rumors about just how strict firms are on reneging, especially if career services is involved. I think OP should've just brought it up with HR directly rather than just telling someone at the other firm, but she was in a position to do whatever she wanted - clearly she just just f it and did whatever.

l o l at the part with the ex. I'm only 20, but that's relatable as hell. That, or when you ask her to pick a restaurant, and you hit back with the "you pick," and when you actually pick, she says not that restaurant

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Aug 1, 2019

Similar to @Synergy_or_Syzygy and @ELurker7 , I've managed to work my way up the ladder at a regional BB, but specifically in an O&G group. There are a multitude of systematic flaws coupled with a list of judgement lapses from both parties in this post.

If the candidate was from Texas, there's absolutely no excuse for not knowing the consequences of reneging an offer. Career services works closely with these firms, even setting up on-campus interviews and information sessions. It's common knowledge that not only are HR's here connected, but there are good relationships built between the academic institutions and our firm. Our firm has blacklisted people in the past - there should be enough horror stories that get passed along to realize that extending offers is a pretty serious decision.

To the OP. you should not have called your friend at another firm. Are you able to? Sure. Did you have to? I don't remember reading anything about being threatened so no, you didn't have to. I don't care if it was on the shitter or in an Uber, you chose to reach out to someone, and that always leads to something - I don't know how it would've ended positively. Even if you said nothing negative about the candidate besides that he reneged, that type of "offense" is serious enough here to rescind an offer. Like others have mentioned, reneging is so uncommon here to the point I'm confident every person that gets caught reneging most likely faced a series of rejections and blacklists. I was in your exact shoes a couple of years ago, but I never considered reaching out to the other firm directly. I have many contacts here, just like everyone else - but recruiting should be run through HR. Why bother dirtying your hands with something that's inevitable? I'm sure both firms involved would resolve the situation with the same exact result without your input.

To anyone thinking about reneging an offer, either don't do it at all or don't get caught. You think HR firms in regional banks don't reach out to NY firms? That's just being naive. Regardless of location, reneging will always have its consequences. It's been this way for years, and I'm surprised it's not frowned upon anymore. If you're able to keep it a secret, you deserve to get the job. But, don't act all surprised if HR calls you to inform you that they won't be having you for the summer.

@faceslappingcompilation I personally don't see this as an exploding offer argument - the term "exploding" has merely become a filler word for the undergraduates. It just means an offer is expiring, not that the time is severely limited. Rarely do BB's here accelerate timelines, and very few boutiques do unless they come across a stellar candidate. Expiring timelines exist everywhere in every industry - even an offer from Shake Shack will expire. Candidates have always asked for additional time to decide, and we've been able to give up to 2-3 additional weeks; I highly doubt that any firm wouldn't be able to give some additional time, especially since southern hospitality exists. However, your other point is valid - just move on to the next candidate.

The thing I will end with is that there are actually some scenarios where I do think OP's actions would've been more tolerable and justified. For example, if the candidate explicitly lied to her stating that he was not in any other interviewing processes or had no expiring offers. We would classify this as false information, and our HR department would definitely take action to reach out to other firms. There's absolutely no reason to lie, especially since most of us have been in the shoes of these interviewees.

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Aug 1, 2019

I have a question for everyone on this thread.

Say Person A has an i-banking internship for sophomore year. Since recruiting stats over a year in advance now, when Person A recruits for junior year internship (because A obviously has no idea whether the sophomore offer would convert) is it OK to mention having a sophomore internship lined up as leverage. Or is this considered a trashy move and not allowed to recruit for junior year until sophomore internship over (which would of course lead to losing the opportunity to recruit at some banks).

Array

Aug 1, 2019

A bit confused what you mean here. If you're saying you want to leverage your sophomore year internship to get a junior year internship, that should be perfectly fine. I've always assumed it looks solid to have a BB or good investment bank as a sophomore year internship. But, I wouldn't communicate it to your sophomore summer firm if you signed with a different firm for junior year - just do the sophomore summer and reject the return.

There's no way you'll be able to recruit with the majority of good firms that far into the timeline. I really hope it's pushed back for the underclassmen

Aug 1, 2019

Quite a few of the MMs recruit around April/May before summer now

(This scenario is theoretical btw I'm only a rising sophomore currently but don't want to end up getting my career screwed over)

Array

Aug 1, 2019

Out of curiosity, has anyone pm'd BBEGal? She used to be fairly responsive, but I have yet to hear a single thing. Despite this whole shit show, she's provided me solid advice on industry, interviews, and firm knowledge in the past. Never would've imagined she do something like this, but I just wanted to ask a question about a firm - nothing even related to this.

Array

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Aug 1, 2019

I reached out to her just to check if she was fine. Assuming she's emotional and sensitive, I can only imagine what some of the comments here have done to her mental. I don't think I could wish the worse on anyone, but I'm sure there are a good handful of people that sent her hate messages and death threats.

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Aug 1, 2019

Christ you really went out of your way to fuck that kid over.

I mean he should have been a bit more sincere in his reneg email. Thank you for the time and opportunity and apologize maybe, but even if he didn't I would never go out of my way to impact someone's life so negatively as you did. That's fucked up. No two ways about it imo.

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Aug 2, 2019

If I had more time, I'd spend it creating fake accounts and repeatedly MS'ing your post.

There's no nobility in poverty.

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Aug 2, 2019

one additional thought i had.

The college student was not blameless here. He/She should have communicated more openly about the situation when they reneged (why they chose the other firm...there must be some reasons...give the person who recruited you some emotional closure...we are all human beings afterall)...and then choosing to ghost OP afterwards is another nail in the coffin. I understand that it would have felt awkward to have these conversations for the college student, but that's part of being a mature adult.

We all know that college students are not yet mature adults...i sure as heck wasn't...but i hope that the younger generation would learn from some of our mistakes, so clearly communicated thru the media these days.

So, we understand that the college student created the circumstances which led to their own demise. Still, i would also hope that the mature professional (OP) would understand that you are in fact dealing with kids, and its not realistic to EXPECT kids to act mature...we hope...but we don't expect. Lesson learned...empathy growth achieved...i hope.

just google it...you're welcome

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Aug 2, 2019

Just to play devil's advocate, how do you think this would've panned out if the candidate had just taken the phone call? The more I look at this thread, the more I consider empathizing with the OP, which is what you seem to be doing as well if I'm not mistaken.

She made hours of time for him, but he couldn't make time for a 5-10min call with her? I don't think maturity has anything to do with this. This is just courtesy and how you're raised...

Aug 2, 2019

@BBEGal i was wondering - if the kid wasted less time (re: not over-requesting calls, 3 hrs of calls) or didn't ghost on you after, would that have factored into your decision on whether to call your friend? While I get why the board is sympathetic to the college kid's situation (cause it does suck majorly for him - IB is his whole world at this point), and/or harsh with their view of your action for all the reasons people discussed already, I can see how the additional context you provided re: region can play a factor vs say being in NY/SF. If nothing else, this thread provides good context to anyone - recruiter and recruitee - on how others view actions.

I'm also curious if OP would get a different trend of responses on say Fishbowl where you don't have usernames and, IIRC, no downvoting.

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Aug 2, 2019

Would +1SB if I could. I think it's easy for us to say whatever we want behind a computer screen, but I can't imagine she's the only one to have taken this much action. But, just for curiosity sake, how much do you think the call mattered?

Aug 2, 2019

This is flat out embarrassing... You went OUT OF YOUR WAY to try and screw over this kid and now you're looking for some sense of support from the WSO community? Nah. It's people like you who make the finance world toxic.

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Aug 2, 2019

its not so black and white...i understand that the kid did lots of things wrong. i still don't think OP should have reached out to the other firm...but i understand that the kid did things that drove OP to do so.

I wish OP had just moved on to the next candidate...and hopefully will just do that the next time.

I understand that lots of people in the regional firms think that its ok to blacklist a kid for making a stupid mistake. This is not ok...its something that people learn from the fraternity/sorority system....and should be "unlearned". Teach the kid a lesson? sure. Explain that what they did was wrong, why, and how they should approach similar things in the future. Blacklist them and prevent them from learning and gaining future employment? that seems twisted and evil.

just google it...you're welcome

Aug 2, 2019

I agree. The kid is not blameless here but he certainly did not deserve to get blacklisted from an entire region because he was looking out for his best interests.

Aug 2, 2019
BBEGal:

It was about 3 hours total in time spent on the phone, and he ended up signing on the last day of the exploding offer.

Three days later, he emailed me

Seems like OP is mad cuz that the kid asked too many questions and took up 3 hours of his/her time. But I thought answering questions is part of what recruiters do?
The kid reneged 3 days after he signed. Not 3 weeks, not 3 months, not 3 days before the start day. Op had plenty of time to get to the next candidate. But instead, OP decided to spend the time and effort to ruin the kid's career.
Not saying the kid is at right, he could have asked for longer time to consider. He also should have be more apologetic about it.
But OP could have just informed he's school let the school deal with it and move on with it. No need to go after him like that....

Aug 2, 2019

3 Hours post-offer seems to be a lot for any individual, especially when your main job is a banker, not a recruiter. Assuming either 2 1.5 hour calls or 3 1 hour calls, that's more time than it takes to eat multiple meals. Not to mention, this all must've been in a week. She must've been hella ticked or irked for this to go down like this

Aug 2, 2019

This behavior is why a generation of kids are now ghosting on offers and not even providing the courtesy of a call informing you that they're reneging on an offer.

Keep up the behavior champ, it's only going to serve you well.

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Aug 2, 2019

Such an asshole move to ruin someone's professional life because of your "beliefs." A perfect example of the white cockiness and privilege.

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Aug 2, 2019

The military is the only type of contract you cannot back out of after signing. That being said an employment contract is no different than any other employment deal. This SA essentially terminated their employment once a better deal was received. It's not this poster's responsibility to ever notify anyone about their situation. If I were this kid and I could put evidence together linking the loss of the 2nd deal due to terminating the initial than I would file a lawsuit for libel. You absolutely are toeing the line when publicly sharing confidential information.

Aug 2, 2019

The kid was WRONG and handled it very poorly. He got what he deserved. But you also FUCKED up. The notion that "a contract is a contract" doesn't apply if no consideration was exchanged. Did you pay to lock him up? If you were able to hire another qualified candidate, be happy.

Also, you should have MADE him call you and mentored him. He would have owed you a big favor. I'd rather be owed, than make an enemy unnecessarily. Never know how things will shake out in the future. So, practice the platinum rule.

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Aug 3, 2019

Of course consideration was exchanged. Employment is consideration. Always good for a laugh when folks on WSO go into amateur lawyer mode.

Aug 3, 2019

Contract is for at will employment. Less valuable than an MOU. If you're a lawyer, please quit.

Aug 2, 2019

What. A. Dick. Move.
And completely unnecessary given the fact that i'm certain there were many other candidates you could have extended the same offer to and let the kid the kid learn that lesson some other way. I agree you are overly sensitive...maybe find work in another field?

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Aug 2, 2019

That time of the month huh? Bad luck for the kid

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Aug 2, 2019

Rude - agree or disagree with OP, don't be a total sexist

Aug 2, 2019

@TheJoneses don't be an asshole pig

Aug 2, 2019

So basically you were intimidated by the fact that this kid was going to work at a better firm than you, would most likely wind up being more successful than you, and you just couldn't stomach that, huh? You're a piece of shit -

Aug 2, 2019

Fuck you. You said it yourself, analysts are replaceable, investment banks don't give a fuck about their analysts so why should you expect an ounce of loyalty from them. He's clearly looking out for his own interests with minimal damage to you or your firm (3hrs wow, at least its 3 less hours spent formatting a ppt).

W/o a SA offer you're cutting off both his legs when it comes down to FT recruiting. If he did really well on the interview process its cause he prob spend countless hrs preparing.

I hope one day someone will cancel a deal with your bank just because you're on the team

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Aug 2, 2019

If I knew one of the current summers had reneged, I wouldn't hold it heavily against them. Most bankers aren't going to feel comfortable putting weight on a factor where they don't know all the facts.

Your bigger problem will be your school. They hate it when people renege and you should find out what they do to punish those that do it. I've heard of at least some schools blocking students from FT recruiting if they renege in the summer. Also, it only takes one rogue person in your school career office to call up her recruiting friend at your new bank and rat you out.

The upside would have to be big for me to even consider it. Like trading up from Stifel to GS, that kind of a jump. If it's like, Jeffries to BAML or some piddly jump like that, you're crazy for even thinking about it.

    • 1
Aug 2, 2019

Wow, a lot of posters really aren't adults, are they? Welcome to the grown up world! If you aren't ready for it, don't sign the contract. Once you sign, contracts are enforced, sweetie.and if you sign a noncompete, you better believe your ex-company will find you and notify your current employer and threaten litigation all the time.

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Aug 2, 2019

This is a bit of an overstatement. Non-competes typically aren't applicable until you hit the VP level. The problem with reneging is that it's deceitful and disrespectful, but at the analyst level there are almost never non compete provisions.

Aug 2, 2019

Funny to me how everyone wants us to care about SA #1 who reneged, but very few seem to care about SA #2 who now has a job because SA #1 got kicked out. Both are strangers, but we care about one way more than the other.

IMHO anyone who cares about SA #1 and not SA #2 is just letting their mind play tricks on them. You care about the first guy because he is identifiable, but the second guy is ignored because we don't know which one he is. Cognitive bias. Sells a lot of non-fiction books these days.

If you accept that one guy's loss was another guy's gain, I think it's hard to get so worked up over the first guy's loss. Also, good judgment is part of the package (if not the most important part) and the first guy showed horrible judgment in how he played it.

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Aug 2, 2019

Not getting an offer at one firm is not the same as getting an offer, then having it yanked out from underneath you then being blacklisted in the entire region.

It's like when some Ivy League schol a few years ago accidentally sent acceptance emails to a bunch of dinged applicants, then had to tell them a few days later that they weren't actually accepted. Which do you think is worse? Being dinged from day 1, or day 7?

    • 1
Aug 2, 2019

Sure, being dinged later on is worse. College situation different of course, since the school screwed up. In fact I'd say the reneging SA is more similar to the college that screwed up the admissions process. Both of them made promises that affected others, only to pull back the promise later.

Ultimately, the whole system works best for all involved if there is a reasonable time limit on offers and if acceptances are final. If students are allowed to either sit on offers for a long time or renege with impunity, the end result is a much less reliable process rife with constant uncertainty about who is working where. The only reason reneging is seen as no big deal is because so few people do it; and so few do it because of the resistance to it from schools and employers. If everyone did it, system would be a disaster.

Aug 2, 2019

So for the recruiting system to work, everybody has to play by common rules. If offers and acceptand are meaningless, pretty much the whole system shuts down. Maybe you would like a different system, and that might be better, but if you agreed to participate in this one, you agreed to play by these rukes.

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Aug 2, 2019

lol your story is pathetic. You went out of your way to ruin some kids future and here you are boasting about it. It is Banking for crying out loud. If the kid didn't reneg and take a better offer then I would say he isn't in the right industry. An industry based on finding value and maximizing opportunity. Just understand it is a small world and things come back to you somehow. You are truly pathetic in the sense that you are what NNT mentions in his latest book the dogs that act like wolves but you are nothing more than a loyal dog. Lastly when this kid dropped out the offer goes to the next best candidate so no one got screwed but the kid you decided to f** over.

Aug 2, 2019

That kid wanted the freedom of being a wolf and the safety of being a dog. Doesn't work that way.

Aug 2, 2019

You are a sad piece of shit and I hope your house will burn.
Be a man and deal with the fact that you are as replaceable as the candidate. But I guess screwing a 20 year-old made you feel good for 30 seconds.
What a sad dick you are.

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Aug 2, 2019

Was this really necessary?

Array

Aug 2, 2019

OP is getting so many negative comments probably because this forum is flooded with college kids who really emphasize with the victim
I personally am neutral to this issue but I feel bad for the OP for this amount of irrational and unnecessary bashing

    • 1
Aug 2, 2019

The working professionals don't seem to like this either.

Aug 2, 2019

Also, big set of balls on some people chirping in on their new / burner accounts...

I'm fairly neutral too. Feel bad for the kid, this is a pretty costly consequence and given it's a regional thing, everyone has probably gossiped about it by now. Hopefully not all the banks in the region followed suit with a blacklist and provide him an opportunity for an interview if he's a legit good candidate. I think blacklist should only be reserved for something unethical (see: Jeffrey Chiang falsifying an offer with BAML to present to another bank MS, people falsifying their transcripts, etc.). This industry can benefit from more empathy.

But, it also seems like he has very little common sense:

  1. Telling OP where he's going (no, don't do that)
  2. Ghosting on OP after she requested follow-up. People argue he's just being upfront by offering #1... but I think you either don't tell them where if you must renege, or you provide some closure and be very respectful (apologize, thank them for their time, etc.), people are generally reasonable if you're respectful,
  3. Sounds like he asked for a lot more air time with her (+ maybe other bankers?) to make his decision vs other candidates... Nothing wrong with requesting info make a decision, but also be reasonably mindful and respectful of people's time, and
  4. it's not like he was jumping from crappy bank to tier 1 BB - sounded like it was going from one good BB/EB to another. The reward wasn't worth the risk, don't split hairs

These items point to poor common sense and judgment, which is something senior bankers are looking for (someone who can crank and smart technically, but also not a common sense doofus). I wouldn't be surprised if an MD had been running this would just as easily called up a buddy and done the same. Not saying they should, and not saying it's right or justified, but college kids on this board should be aware that this CAN happen (reneging has potential reputation risks re: your integrity), and take this thread as a cautionary tale.

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Aug 3, 2019

Spot on!

    • 1
Aug 2, 2019

All the emotion on this thread has got me curious about whether the kid ended up in banking or somewhere else. OP?

Aug 2, 2019

I was once such a kid whose career (or at least the start of my career) was ruined by such a person who did pretty much the similar and literally laughed at me afterwards.
It took me a long time to recover from this pain, not just because I lost the job, but also because I was deeply hurt by the fact that someone I used to respect and trust (up to the point when I realized he was utilizing my naiveness) was a complete asshole, who didn't for a second was in my favor throughout the process and was cold-blooded enough to make joke of it.
Remember, it was not only u who had emotionally invested in the recruiting process, and ruining someone's career to make fun is very pathetic

Aug 3, 2019

Two sides to every story, you could at least tell us what happened.

Aug 2, 2019

Not going to make any friends here and I'm not going to weigh in on whether the OP "should've"/"shouldn't have" made the choice that she did, but integrity and dependability, ie. following through on commitments, are what strengthens trust, which is the bedrock of relationships and banking is very much a relationship business

    • 1
Aug 2, 2019

Since most if you are college kids, I take it you all exhibited the same lack of integrity in college admissions, and applied ED to multiple schools or otherwise violated the application policies? Because it is all about you, right? So I interview for a HYP and when the applicant admits to wrongly applying early elsewhere, that's an a

Aug 2, 2019

Was the original title of your post "intern reneges, I get my revenge.." and you edited it? Or did @WallStreetOasis.com make that title up in the email it sent me about this post? Either way what an awful way to view this action. And let's be real about all the revisionist follow up posts you've made - they're still in light of your initial post, which makes clear you take real pleasure in knowing that "word broke out about this to other firms".

I once helped a IB analyst I knew from another BB get into a lateral process in my group and vouched for him through interviews/selection because he asked for my help and made it clear he was 100% set on leaving. He ended up declining the offer a week after receiving it; I'd say this is a pretty similar situation to what happened to you. I was very annoyed as this reflected poorly on me internally, but, as a self-identifying adult I try to avoid being extremely petty so I just let him know (crisply, not emotionally) that while I understood him declining despite asking for my reference / help to get the job in the first place, I was disappointed by the outcome and he shouldn't ask me for help again in the future.

We called our 2nd choice a few minutes later and she accepted; she made a great addition to the team. Now, I could have exacted some easy revenge by sending a quick text to someone at his bank, and I imagine that would have had some repercussions for him given it was a lateral move. But I figured that wouldn't accomplish much of anything.

I know your claim is that your bank is considered a top tier opportunity, but this comes off as some jaded nonsense from a recruiter tired of seeing good talent go to better firms/groups. Keep in mind that the IBs have almost all of the leverage / power in the marketplace excluding the top 1% of applicants everyone ends up drooling over.

TL;DR: This is petty and IB isn't big enough to act without fear of repercussions. There are plenty of people to fill analyst roles. Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.

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  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Aug 2, 2019

He reneged only 3 days later. He could have started interviewing for both roles at the same time.

It's not like s/he accepted an offer starting in 3 months, waited until the week before and THEN bailed out.

PLUS, banks do not even reject 2nd choice candidates the day(s) after. As a candidate, you have to wait and pray for an update which will arrive 6 months later anyway.

I haven't been in such a situation, but having been on the wait-list more than once, I do not hold it against candidate a. It is what it is...

Aug 2, 2019

This is why people hate iBankers. Sounds like this guy got a better gig than you did and you retaliated. Absolute dick move.

Maybe when you jump ship, your MD can bad mouth you all over.

    • 1
Aug 2, 2019

I'll say it in far fewer words than anyone else herr will: you're a dick.

    • 2
Aug 2, 2019

Many of you all are attacking the OP using some pretty harsh language. It's not wrong to be blunt, but maybe actually read previous comments? The same insult has been framed at least 30 different ways here and it will only make him/her feel awful. You all claim that OP is power hungry and a jerk but some of you all seem to get pleasure from bashing the OP repeatedly. IMO you all seem more toxic to hang around then the OP. And if you are a UG like me, you should actually pay attention to what certified users are saying rather than just trashing the OP. Insulting superiors will get you nowhere in life.

Array

    • 3
Aug 3, 2019

Mob mentality, none of these squids would dare say anything irl

    • 1
Aug 2, 2019

What if he really DID have personal issues preventing him from joining the other firm?
Maybe the dude he interviewed with was a colossal prick, but he took the offer because he felt it was his only shot in.
So should he have just sucked it up?

    • 3
Aug 2, 2019

Current undergrad here that just signed an offer, so I was kind of in a similar space. I personally think this thread exemplifies why everyone outside of finance hates investment banking - it's a community where everyone is so out to bash others. Creating an account just to say her house should burn down, and two people +SB? Seriously?

I understand that people say what she did was wrong, but even a 20/21 year old like me can tell that there are missing details. We know the candidate was a dumb ass because he did things like list the name of the firm, but he could've at least answered a call. I also took multiple calls with people from both firms I had offers from, and I eventually signed and emailed those at the other firm I would not be joining them. Some of them replied passive aggressively like "K. Tks." while others asked to call and explain why I signed with the other firm. Not to mention, it wasn't much of a choice to call since their emails were worded where it was more of a demand and less of a request - regardless, of course I would've called since they took time out of their day for me. This just seems like common courtesy to me.

Out of 5 or so people, it was obvious at least 3 were upset/annoyed and the other 2 were at least concerned enough to ask why. Not to mention, I only called for 45 - 60 minutes split between all employees, which was enough for one VP to say "Thanks anyways. Now if you don't mind, I'm going to spend my time on something more useful now." If you want to add some perspective to this, I went through an NY EB process. OP's candidate was clearly in a much more intimate regional office, spent more than 3x time I did on the phone with ONE PERSON, and he was in a situation where he reneged - just had two expiring offers. If me not taking a standard expiring offer is enough to irk people at associate at VP levels in NY, I can only imagine how pissed off they would've been if I reneged - I would've ended up as a fugitive in everyone's inbox.

Many of you guys are so quick to burn the OP. Even WSO gave this thread a header with "revenge" when that was never mentioned - it just makes this whole thing even worse. I would never do something to jeopardize offers at 2 solid firms. Especially if it was for something as dumb as going from GS to Evercore.

    • 4
Aug 2, 2019

true. I think the +2 SBs were for effort of making the new account ;)

    • 1
Aug 2, 2019

As college students, shouldn't we be the ones that are most upset? Why does it feel like all the students are the sane ones here...

Can second the thing about revenge. There haven't been any revisions I've seen, so I didn't know WSO manipulated titles like that.

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