How can I become successful from a no-name school?
I have a 4.0 GPA at a shit CC but have a very rigorous courseload while my peers are taking arts and ethics classes. I want to break into an investment bank but when I cruise Quora, Reddit, etc they all say that I have no chance since I'm from CC and that this forum suffers from Survivorship Bias. I have a real passion for deals and I'm not like those weird Ivy leaguers who stutter 20 times during the interview and ask questions like "what do you think of the interest rates?"
I can try to transfer into a target but every fucker said it's impossible so that's a no go. I was not afforded the same opportunities like all the Certified Users here. My parents couldn't afford college so I couldn't go even though I got into some decent non-targets. I've taught myself how to make lbo models as well as DCFs. I just looked up the Rosenbaum PDF and got it for free. Excel is pretty easy to use since I used to play StarCraft, I'm pretty quick at using it and know most of the shortcuts but nonetheless how can I get my foot in the door? I know once I'm in the interview I will standout compared to all the privileged fucks around me.
I'm scared to reach out to people on LinkedIn because they wont take me seriously. Once they hear I'm from a CC they'll assume I was a highschool dropout who got a GED and went to CC but this isn't the case.
Thank you all so much and please don't mention my "woe-is-me" attitude. Because the fact of the matter is I have a 4.0 and can do the work Investment Bankers do proficiently
Thanks you so much :)
A couple of suggestions, first and foremost network. Have an elevator pitch that explains your desire for finance in 30 seconds.
Secondly, recognize there are a lot of Ivy League and target school alumni on the street so be humble. You do have something to prove, because many have come from the same background and made it. I've known MDs whose dad's were coal miners in Appalachia or steelworkers. The truth is many of those people you seem to think stutter through their interviews are smart, hard working and emotionally intelligent.
Keep up the GPA, apply broadly and get an internship at a boutique or in PWM.
Its not that easy as you think it is.
"I grew, day by day, more moody, more irritable, more regardless of the feelings of others." Edgar Allen Poe
It won't be easy, it's an uphill battle. But that's how you break in, network and know your technicals cold.
Is this Goldstein on a new account...?
EDIT: Wait are you the same person as DanMyers on another account? Both accounts were made around the same time and comment on all of each others posts soon after they are posted.
No, I ask OP to bump my threads.
Lol ivy leaguers who stutter on interview. Please they work just as hard as you.
You can transfer into a target and network.
Clearly you've just never made the effort to do so and need a place to cry.
Thank you so much for your reply.
EDIT: WHat the fuck do you mean ive never made the effort. I GOT PERFECT GRADES?
dude...a 4.0 from a CC is very different from a 4.0 at a target/semi-target...
Transfer to a better school. Once you get into at least a descent program people will look at that ahead of starting in CC. Gun for the top schools when you apply. If you do have a 4.0 it should not be impossible.
I have a 4.0
Then apply to the top school you want to go to. Seriously, 4.0 with a positive course load, positive attitude and you will be fine. Also, so try and get an internship or job doing something in between. Even if at an FA office. Some experience is better than none. Good luck!
You need to graduate from a 4-year school in order to get ib interviews, at the very least.
Also, maybe try not to make it obvious to literally every one of your potential future coworkers that you detest them.
"decent non-targets" - this is an oxymoron. Either they were decent schools (targets or semi targets) or they were non targets.
hehe
Try to transfer. That's what I did and still broke into IB from a non-target. Read up on networking strategies and get a campaign going. I had to cold call shops for an internship. I finally got a hold of someone that had a need for an intern and liked that I called their firm directly so I got the interview. I would caution you not to cold call BBs. Use that approach for boutiques and mid-markets where they don't have a full-blown HR machine. Keep it to LinkedIn and email for bigger shops.
If you have a 4.0 with tough classes, good extra-curriculars, and can legitimately say that tuition/home costs made going to another school infeasible, then you have a great story for a target admissions committee.
Come interview day act like you belong there- after all, they invited you. Know some basic technicals, how what deals/work the target firm does (IB, PE/AM, etc.) and how it makes them money. Show you're hungry and prepared and the school name on your degree won't slow you down.
The most important thing to remember is mindset. Your tone says you want to work in finance, you are willing to put in the time to learn key fundamentals for success, but you feel like you don't belong there because of your lack of pedigree. I don't care if you have Ph.D. from the Bilderberg Institute of World Domination, the minute that you feel like xyz factor is unfairly holding you back, you're fucked.
I have all the above. I just heard that transferring is not going to work out because a 4.0 from CC is frowned upon.
Lol why would it be frowned upon. Have you filled out the transfer apps yet?
Transfer to a better school.
The best possible school you can transfer to.
Honestly, it's the only option you have. It doesn't matter if you try to network your way in, you'll never be able to be at a BB (save me the "there's a chance" bullshit) so the best option is to get into the best school you can.
If you can't go to a great school, then get a MS in Finance from the top school you possibly can after graduating. That should be your goal. To network, get to know everyone in the industry, and get into a top MSF program. That's your chance for getting into a BB or MM.
Just being honest. Have stretch goals, but you need to be realistic.
OK thank you for your honesty. I wish money wasn't a barrier D;
I would second this. Try for a target school, get some internships while you are there. You don't have to start off with an internship from a top BB. Keep up the academic work and graduate with a good GPA. Build up your CV from education and experience/internships and you can land at least a solid boutique job to start. Network and work your way up from there.
The sad truth - are you one of the following? :
1) URM 2) Blonde smokeshow 3) Family-connected to IB
If not, get tf out of CC, you ain't making it.
No I'm not thanks you so much for the advice.
Hate to be harsh but I was in your shoes and got a transfer to Cornell. I know the direct experience of trying to become a banker via CC. It's almost negative chances.
Same as you bro. You've seen my other spiderman post. All I see is pain from people's eyes saying that its impossible. The very mention of the HALF THE WORD ( goldm... / jp mor... / rothsc...) they burst out in laughter. "Not even CFA would let you get an interview, let alone the 2nd round or even the internship/job" says the woman I met who advised me. It's like a taboo to speak such "DIVINE" words, coming from a non-target's mouth as he will be cursed for 7 years if he does so! Transfer isn't an option when parents can't even afford to pay for the current university's fees, yet alone the tuition cost and exam cost of CFA. A tragic life. Still, I wont let my effort go to waste. I'll likely get a CFA, while working and earning money to fund my education. Doing whatever I can. Not sitting down, beaten by the words others put in my head. If I dont succeed, I wont be completely disheartened. I will still have some qualification and experience.
What?
Mute out the haters - the people who tell you cant do this or that.
Getting Noticed with a High GPA from a Non-Target (Originally Posted: 07/18/2017)
Hello,
I just finished up my first year with a 3.9 GPA as a quantitative finance (hardest major at school) and math double major. I didn't get the best grades early on in HS and ended up at a non-target school (top 50 business school) despite high SAT scores, and worry about my chances of getting the opportunity to prove myself to employers through an interview or internship.
I had many credits from HS (like Linear Algebra) so I was able to take a decent number of finance classes this year (including CFA courses), and did well without putting forth too much effort. Trying to differentiate myself, I decided to graduate a year early. I also landed an internship at a smaller investment management firm (around $1B assets) this summer, have been learning excel and python, have been reaching out to alumni/people in the IBD, and I plan on taking the CFA I my senior year and CFA II right when I graduate. I also like to think of myself as pretty well-rounded (in a fraternity, played lax and golf in HS, etc) if that makes a difference.
I feel like I can compete with kids from target schools (could be naive), and am wondering what else I can do to differentiate myself from my peers and level the playing field to get the opportunity to prove myself to employers.
All input is greatly appreciated.
You're doing good. Just keep networking more and applying for roles more suited to your profile. I think you'll do much better at a quant role in a top shop rather than in IBD with your current profile. IBD isn't the be-all-end-all.
Thanks for your suggestion. Would you mind going into a little more detail about potential quant roles I could aim for? Also, would I have to/do you think it would be very beneficial to consider graduate programs like MFE or PHD? Ideally, I would like to avoid graduate school and get out into the real world sooner.
GS TMT!!!!
Network well and have a story. They'll love your GPA.
You guys are right, my skill set does fit the quant role better than IBD, and I'm going to head more in this direction. Thanks for the help.
Non-Target to [Insert Goal Here] (Originally Posted: 08/31/2014)
I probably receive a few PMs a month from people who are from some variation of an out of favor background for Wall Street/Investment Banking/Private Equity. It varies from institution, to GPA to current professional position, and all of the above.
The most common question I'm asked is: is it time to give up? Should I have gotten the hint by now? Surprisingly enough I get this question from people who are still in college and getting little traction in getting interviews, I get this from people who have repeatedly made it to final rounds and unable to close, I've heard it from professionals a few years out of school working in compliance, operations, wealth management, commercial banking... or seemingly more disadvantaged seats.
With this in mind, I'll share snippets from the various pieces of advice I've proffered.
(1) There's only 2 ways for your struggle to end. I will guarantee that you will only stop trying when one of the two scenarios play out: (a) you achieve your goal; or (b) you do not. You're the only one that will decide when event B occurs. Absent the occurrence of event B, either A will occur or you'll get hit by a bus. As long as you are doing a few things, you'll continue making forward progress and inching towards your goals.
(2) Employ a no stone unturned approach: Its a numbers game. Failure is a statistical destiny. That is true for everything in the universe. Stars, plants, animals, machines, and recruiting processes. The latter is designed to filter out people who don't fit a certain criteria (likely people like you). Have faith in the laws of the universe. If you have everything it takes, except that checklist of gating pedigree attributes, you will eventually seep through the cracks somehow. With enough tries... someone will make a mistake. They'll misread your resume, they put your name on the interview list and someone else's name on the ding list by mistake, etc. That is low probability event but not a zero probability event. Its happened to be on multiple occasions.
When I was at a shitty non-target with an okay GPA I applied to jobs ranging from an Operations Analyst Intern at Lehman Brothers to a Investment Banking Senior Associate at Goldman Sachs. In the end, I was brought in for an interview by mistake for a position I didn't have the experience for or the qualifications for, but I capitalized on it and got an offer. My trajectory after continued to be peppered with disappointments and missed opportunities, but I had faith in human error and people's compulsion to bet on the underdog.
(3) Make adjust/correct your route every time you fail. This requires the self-awareness to figure out what the primary reason for your failure was and then try to rectify it. It could have been that you came off as desperate rather than hungry in your interview. It could have been that you don't have any of the necessary training/knowledge. It could have been that you bombed the technicals. Maybe you didn't adequately communicate how hungry/driven you are. Whatever it is, identify it and then address/correct it.
I was a cornerback when I played football and what was seared onto my brain was 'angle or pursuit'... which is... if you're chasing after a receiver with the ball (or in this case a specific goal/aspiration) you run as fast as you can to catch up to it (i.e., pursuit)... or you adjust your angle of approach to cut across different routes so your paths intersects (i.e., angle). You should be doing both.
(4) Tell your own story. Don't try to play the game on their turf. You'll lose. If you try to stand toe to toe with other candidates and tell the typical story you will fail.
Tell your story. Why do you want to work in banking/PE. You're a nontraditional candidate, use that as an advantage... you're not like everyone else, you've had to do X, Y and Z to get the necessary skills and experience, you've had to do A, B and C to get interview traction. The fact that you got an interview means you've clearly had to take more initiative than if you were at a target. What did it consist of and why did you feel inclined and determined to take that initiative? It likely didn't come without sacrifice, use that to your advantage.
Take your 'weakness' and use it as a strength. Take their strength and use it as a weakness. They're interviewing because all their classmates are interviewing. You're there because you've thought hard and long about it and sought to take on a laborious and grueling road that requires determination and perseverance. That's a much more compelling story than I was the valedictorian of my HS and scored a 99th percentile SAT, so I went to Wharton. Once there I did more of the same and here I am interviewing at Goldman. That being said, expressing your underdog attributes does not equate to the 'poor me' song and dance.
(5) Lastly, perseverance and grit trump all. I'll leave you with this video which I really really liked. The main reason I felt like posting this thread was to share this video: http://www.ted.com/talks/angela_lee_duckworth_the_key_to_success_grit
Well written and really inspiring. Thank you
Great post as always, SBed.
I think one of the most important things I've ever learned is your point #2: life is a numbers game and it applies to literally every aspect of life.
No matter how great your resume is, there will always be companies/universities/etc who aren't interested. No matter how good looking you are there will always be girls who aren't interested, etc.
But if you pursue many opportunities then there is a good chance that eventually something works out.
I think where people give up is they don't realize these opportunities can literally come from whenever. Frankly if you lack work experience, have a shitty GPA, etc. then there needs to be some moment where you make 'the jump'. For Marcus it sounds like he was in an interview that he shouldn't have been in and capitalized.
For me, I was going into my senior year having finished up an extremely BO internship and had no finance experience. I contacted every PWM office within a 2-3 hr radius and happened to reach out to a small boutique IB also who I would later find out needed a new analyst after their summer intern declined their offer.
I must have reached out to 30 or so PWM offices willing to work for free and was told no by every single one of them. And then this investment bank gives me an opportunity and eventually tells me yes. Changed everything going forward as I've made a few jumps since then.
Just goes to show that the opportunity can come from anything. The good thing in life is that for most things it only takes one yes and after that it doesn't matter who had said no in the past.
Awesome. Great snippets of advice provided. Coming out of a non-target is incredibly tough, but giving up and doing something you aren't passionate about is even tougher. Good luck to all of those still working their way out. Trust me, it's possible if you give more than the required amount of effort and keep your attitude and your spirits high.
Best of luck.
Think this quote pretty well encompasses these ideas.... "It will take a little bit of time. It's going to take a lot of effort, a lot of energy. And I'll give it that. I have to. I have to because that is what I want for my life, and what I want with my life I'm willing to work for, and what I'm willing to work for I'm definitely willing to achieve." -CR Johnson
Thanks Marcus, just added to frontpage
Borderline non-target to Big 4 out of college to a long short equity hedge fund. It took me 5 years.
My buyside interview search was 13 months long. 70+ interviews, 10+ case studies and more rejections than I could count. Point (1) really resonates with me - I couldn't see myself doing anything else so I kept going. Not sure I recommend this approach but I literally had no backup plan. I was unemployed so I bounced around from sublet to sublet in case I had to move somewhere on short notice. Those 13 months contained both the lowest and highest points of my post-college life. Worth it.
congrats! and @"Marcus_Halberstram", thanks again for sharing your wisdom. You speak the truth. The issue is that the road is often long and hard and ...
There are great careers in FINANCE outside of the front office in IB at a BB. I promise :-)
@"Marcus_Halberstram" I would like to see your story as well. perhaps a AMA or blog post is in order.
This was so well articulated and a great read. I second thebrofessor and hope to read more about your story.
This was a perfect post for Mid-week. There are great careers with great people outside of IBD but never settle. Take the time to look inside and really ask yourself what you want and if you willing to scale the walls to get there.
Needed this. Thanks Marcus
Phenomenal post, and timely for me. I'm currently figuring out my angle.
Awesome post. As with BullMkt, I too am figuring out my angle. Thanks!
This is great motivation for myself and any other non-target moving forward, and the "tell your own story" section hits home the hardest. Thanks for posting this, Marcus.
This is great. I am trying to figure out right now how to differentiate myself from all the other non-target school candidates and I think this helped a lot.. thanks!
Awesome post. I needed that inspiration, as I'm currently at Big School Non-target and the culture tends to affect my drive in negative ways (i.e. getting drunk 24/7)
Great post. Always thought Marcus came from a target as well.
Nothing new, just another great post from Marcus.
Inspirational.
This was much needed. I am currently waiting for an email from this boutique bank for an internship. I graduated from a non-target a couple of months ago and while it has been tough, it has taught me a lot of things. There is no magical way to turn it all around in a day and the only way to get what you want is by working hard. I am scared and excited though definitely don't think event B has occurred or will occur anytime in the future.
'...from people who have repeatedly made it to final rounds and unable to close.' What is your advice for those who repeatedly get rejected pre-interview (even with referrals) but have better luck closing interviews when they do get the opportunity?
Great post btw!
That essentially means that either your resume isn't up to snuff and/or your resume in form is up to snuff but in substance is lacking... typically non-target, non-internship problems. If that's the situation you find yourself in, online job postings are useless for you. Referrals could get you in, but it would need to be a strong one with some force behind it. You'll have to depend on networking on your own to get someone's attention and make enough of an impact for that person to pull to get you an interview.
what job can you possibly get from Non-target or Semi-Target school? (Originally Posted: 07/15/2017)
Hi I am wondering what kind of job you can get if you go to semi-target school or for that matter non-target school as a finance major
I am upcoming Junior HS student who is working his ass off to get to the target school. MY GPA is 4.2 as of now and already took 2 AP classes. However, my ACT is 28 and I am struggling to achieve a higher score.
I have been a long time lurker here and I am honestly really afraid if I cannot even get into Semi-Target. As far as I have had learned from this website, it seems like if you went to non-target then there is almost zero chance of working in Finance industry at all (even a start up or a small or a mid size firm).
That is why I am asking what kind of job can you get into.
My dream is to work in Private Equity or FX trader. However, this may change later on.
Thanks
Billionaires have come from non-targets too.
Where do graduates from mediocre non-target schools with mediocre GPAs find jobs in finance? (Originally Posted: 07/15/2017)
We all know that the big banks tend to hire from the cream of the crop students/schools but what about those who went to average schools with average GPAs who majored in finance or related major? What kind of jobs do these mediocre students end up getting?
sales, small office jobs, financial advisors to name few from what I hear.
You prob gotta temp and prove yourself
sales, wealth management, more sales, financial analyst roles, business analysts, low-level accounting
Car salesman - bought my car off a former/rival sports guy that studied finance at some non target.
Non-target resume boosters (Originally Posted: 09/19/2016)
I'm a college freshman at a non-target university in the southeast. My school does have one of the best accounting and law schools in the country, or at least that's what they told me at orientation. Anyway, I want to break into investment banking when i graduate, so for now I'm trying to network and get a summer internship in New York as soon as possible. It's rare, but I have heard of freshmen and sophomores getting one. Anyway, I need resume boosters so that I'm not passed up on interview day. Currently my school's investment club has a game where everyone gets a demo trading account and whoever has the highest returns by the end of the semester, wins $500 and some prestige. If I was to win this, would it look good on a resume? I would think having the highest percent return out of my entire investment club would look good. Can anyone else give so ideas on things I could do in my university or outside, such as a CFA or national organizations, that would stick out on a resume?
P.S. I have already made higher percent returns in my personal investment account than all but one person from last year's trade game, the results of the game were available online.
I feel the need to comment on how badly written this is. I'm more intelligent than this article gives credit for, I promise.
"...wins $500 and some prestige." Lol. You talk about prestige like it's given out.
https://imgflip.com/i/1aw5co
Your point?
Pipsandsuch are you looking more towards Sales & Trading or do you want to be in M&A or sector coverage working on capital raises and transactions?
Either ways (assuming transferring to a target school is out of the question) here are some things you can do right now (no particular order):
1.) Join an Investment Banking club on-campus. If you don't have one, reach out to professors who can serve as advisers and start your own.
2.) Look into diversity programs or "jump start" programs that various banks offer (there is a thread on WSO that lists these...go find it).
3.) Reach out to bankers on LinkedIn and leverage any alumni that are working at IBs. Learn from them and use whatever advice they give you as a guide.
4.) Take financial modeling courses and start doing some self-study programs to gain technical skills.
5.) Search WSO and look at the various non-target success stories and start working on a plan to get you into IB.
5.) If IB as an internship is not possible consider a F500 internship as a Treasury Analyst or Commercial Banking. If all else fails, consider wealth management to gain some work experience.
That's all I have. Good luck!
Thank you for your reply. I'm looking more toward trading when i graduate, but I believe I can get an IB internship before then. Since we have a large Financier's Club and a large Investment club, I never considered starting an investment banking club. I will give that some thought. The Alumni networking has been slow so far, could you offer any advice on how to approach them on LinkedIn? I got an interview today with a very large marketing company that hires a lot of business school students apparently, hopefully I can meet some friends of friends that way as well.
GPA for a non-target student to break in? (Originally Posted: 12/23/2010)
Jow much GPA is needed to break in for a non-target kids? I got 3.22 GPA and maxed out (24 credits) next semester. Although I might get straight A out of them, the GPA recruiters are seeing is 3.22. Is there some way to back it up? any excuses?
Break in where? IB in general is definitly doable with that GPA, but if you are talking about a GS or a MS, you won't make the cut with that GPA.
Regardless of BB or not, usually the cut off for submitting you resume is a 3.3 if not a 3.5.
I think it partially depends on your major as well. If you've got a notoriously hard major in engineering or computer science or something to that extent, you will be given leeway on your gpa vs. if you're a philosophy major. If you don't make the cutoff for submitting your resume you'll have to find another way in, try to find alumni or any other type of connection.
Which sucks because Philosophy is a really difficult major.
It's more a function of the networking you do. Your gpa does matter, but if you meet the right person you'll get in the door for an interview, and at that point it's all on you. Second to above regarding major and will add notoriety of school/alum connections, and presence of campus recruiters.
+1
3.22 is very low from a non target. For a non target it is important to have a high GPA because its a way to signal intelligence, whereas HYP kids can get away with a lower one as the signalling is partly done by the name of the school.
If a bank doesn't recruit at Harvard/Princeton are they still considered non-targets and held to the same standard as other non-target schools, or do they still get a bump?
.
2.8 if you know the right people and present yourself well. Confidence is everything in this industry. Show that your strong grades are in your major which will hopefully be finance related and that you worked and did EC's like a mother and you can talk clearly with confidence. Connection gets you into the interview, you handle the rest. I don't think I've had people ask about my GPA.
Even with a 3.9, it's extremely hard to get in through recruiting.
Your 100x better off networking to get in, then GPA matters less
Brooksbrotha,
And how do you know this? I thought you were in Asset Management at Chase
There are people (some on this site, in fact) that have broken in with ~2.5
Care to give us a few names? I'm in a somewhat similar situation. I'm a triple major with Math, Econ, and Finance, but my GPA is about 3.0 from a semi-target southern school.
Nope, not going to out anyone but rest assured it can be done.
How to get a job coming from a non target? (Originally Posted: 07/24/2015)
I'm about be a college freshman (yes, college freshman) at a school that's DECENT. It isn't top tier by any means, but they have a quickly growing national reputation and have (somehow) sent finance grads to firms like BlackRock, PIMCO, and some other top firms. To give you a reference point, it's a smaller liberal arts university with an undergrad business school (very similar to a Bucknell or Richmond). I am 100% sure I want to go into investment banking, portfolio management, or equity research. Obviously I'd love to get an internship later in school then flip it into an analyst or associate position without having to go to graduate school, but it might seem unrealistic coming from a school like Bucknell or Richmond.
I have a couple questions underlying one major one. Do I need to get an MBA or MS in Finance from a better institution to have a chance at most financial firms in those areas? I'm currently going to major in finance and accounting (double major at the undergrad level), should I maybe reconsider accounting and study something more quantitative like statistics or economics? I've read that portfolio management jobs and investment analysis careers at the entry level are becoming more and more quant like. Basically, I'm asking do I have a chance, and if not, what should I do to increase my chances at landing a job at an Asset Management firm or investment banking firm?
To give some background, I'm going to Elon University. I was hoping that any readers would have an idea for advice based on what I said before disclosing where I'm attending. I chose this school over Richmond, Bucknell, Kelley (IU) and Smeal (Penn State). Before you bash my decision, I chose Elon because of its growing national reputation and investment in the undergraduate.
To continue, I am a double legacy at Yale. Both grandparents went there, and my uncle is on the board of admissions there (sadly, for undergrad). I had little to no chance of getting in there as an undergrad, but if I can manage over a 3.7 at Elon with a 680+ GMAT I'd have a great shot at YSOM as an MBA candidate. If that sounds like something that would boost a future career in finance, do tell.
The obvious answer is to get a 4.0 at Elon your Freshman year then transfer to a target (looks like Yale is a good option). It's a fairly common route if you know you want to do banking early on.
Right, but I guess my question is if that's completely necessary? Could I stay at say Elon if I kept a 3.8+ for all 4 years?
I'm in a HF now after going to a non-target. Feel free to PM if you have any questions
Is penn state mba a good option to land a job on the street?
You should have went to Richmond. Semi Target and places well in the region.
expensive as shit though
I went to a total non-target liberal arts school. Contact all alumni that work in finance. It really works. They help you because they were once in your shoes as non-target students.
I'm glad someone finally asked the question about how to break in from a nontarget school.
I mean if you do really well your first year then transferring would be a viable and attractive option for you. You CAN do both, but transferring WILL make it easier for you to succeed.
So, between getting a 3.8 or higher and transferring to a target school for my sophomore year (and preferably not going to business school) OR having a 3.7+ all 4 years at Elon and then going to a top 25 b-school, which would you do?
Either do well and transfer as the others said or take the longer but proven (several times on this site alone) path from a non-target. One thing you should absolutely not do is go to b school right after undergrad. Unless you do something incredible you won't get into a b school that puts you in a vastly different position as coming out of undergrad. MSF might be a different story as it seems people do use that to rebrand after decent undergrad. I'd suggest using the search bar and researching what has worked for other users in the past.
What is Elon?
could you transfer to Yale if you do well after a year or 2 at elon?
I'm guessing you're a California state resident, in your shoes I'd try to transfer into UC Berkeley.
Give Elon a shot. As much as many people in this forum foster the fact that "exit opportunities," "bulge bracket," and "elite boutique" are the end all, there is so much more to life and college than these words. I used to think like you did and it made my time in college unenjoyable because I was thinkng about transferring early on.
Now, I'm at a "target" school and I definitely enjoy having the greater networking opportunities, prestige, etc. But I wish I gave my old school a better shot to this day. You can and will have the ability to get an investment banking job from Elon, it just might be a little bit harder. It isn't like getting one from where I'm at is a given either.
I agree. Theres so much more to college than getting into those banking career. I feel like I invested too much energy into it my first year. Sure its nice to break into it, but there are many other ways to make it big.
I think we get caught up a lot of the time in hypothetical fantasies, regardless of whether they are realistic or not, and fail to see what's right in front of us.
This isn't to say you shouldn't consider transferring. But if I were you, I would wait until at least Jan/Feb to make that type of decision. Most of the applications aren't due until March if I remember correctly. Good luck.
Please please please transfer into Yale. It's an investment into your future, and you'll have a much better chance of getting into HBS and GSB if you decide to go that route.
Non-Target Success. Hard Work Does Pay Off (Originally Posted: 07/06/2012)
Finally the day I get to post one of these topics, just got an offer for my dream IB job. Here's my story, and some advice to those who want to pull the same move from non-target with no experience to IB FT offer:
Graduated from a non-target this past May with no ibanking internships done in the past. Still had ~3.8 GPA in Finance and Accounting but didn't think I would get an IB FT offer as I came out of the recruting cycle with nothing.
So this past spring break I spent my week emailing a great amount of mid/small IBanks in the boston area (where i'm from/where i went to school). Only received about 10 responses, the majority of which were to say "great resume, but we aren't hiring at the time". Managed to get a few informational interviews out of this process but nothing stuck. The only thing I came out of school with was an offer to work at a bank unpaid for the summer which may or may not turn to full time (was a weak unknown bank, so even if it did lead to full time it would be way less than the experience/offer i was looking for).
So i took this unpaid gig hoping to still actively recruit thorughout the program. Kicked up my networking efforts and managed to get introduced to a bank looking for an analyst. Made sure it wouldn't be my lack of effort to be the reason I wouldn't get the offer so i made sure i had the WSO guides down and read the Rosenbaum and pearl ibanking book the weekend before my interview. After about a 5 week interview process i got my dream job offer to work IB with this team and couldn't be happier to start my career in IB and get out of this unpaid gig after 4 weeks
My advice to those who want to pull the same move from non-target with no experience to IB FT offer:
-be persistent, don't give up on your dream if you don't get the IB offer right away and don't get discouraged if you keep losing out to lateral hires like I did. - be very proactive. you need to show that you really want it and will need to do something to show that because there will be competiion who have the experience. I did an investment banking bootcamp, read the guides, read rosenbaum just to show my desire and work ethic so that somebody would give me a shot. - really network. use every resource you have and don't be afraid to ask your contacts for help like i did. this industry can be very hard to get into if you want to do it all your own and i learned that the hard way. - just keep busting your ass and be a nice person. people will want to help others who are nice and they know will work hard for them
Good luck to those still pursuing the dream. It can be done.
great story congrats, thanks for sharing!
The picture is fucking hilarious
And I agree with AndyLouis, great job bro
Congrats on the position. I am currently heading into my sophomore year at a non-target school and am seriously preparing for the long road ahead. Your success is very encouraging!
+1
Waiting to write one of these for FT. Soon, I think. Congrats!
Awesome! Congratulations! I'm a similar boat; good GPA/stats out of non-target, but no internships, and my resume is a bit all over the place. Would love to hear more about how you went about networking. Did you just email banks for the 4-week gig? You didn't mention cold-calling.
Thanks! Would love to learn as much from your experience as I can.
I got a list of mid/small banks in the boston area. then searched online at their team pages and through linkedIn to see if any of them were alumni of my school. if there were alumni I emailed those people first. Otherwise i just tried to email one of the top persons from the bank to try to start out with an informational meeting.
didn't do any cold-calling, all through email. The best thing is to just email as many places as possible bc many won't be hiring. Also, aiming for the mid/small banks works well now because those will be the ones that tend to hire off-cycle and you'd be able to get into since they don't always have target school they recruit from.
Happy to answer any additional questions about this
Congrats Bro! Your story of perseverance is an inspiration for a lot in the hunt. I also graduated with 3.8 GPA from a school in Boston, studied FInance and Accouting. I will be starting a FDP in Strategy for a F100 in the fall but I am going to try to make a jump to IB. Same predicament as you, no relevant IB experience in resume when I was interviewing which held me back. I was also curious about how you went about networking? Cold-emailing alumni?
Congrats man!
Thanks for sharing! Wonderful to read! :)
Inspiring, even for a college freshman like me!
Congrats. I am very happy for you.
Good story! Where did you go to school?
Congrats, I hope to write one soon too!
YEAH BUDDY
Get it man! Congrats.
congrats!! keep up the good work
wow congrats, success stories like these are what makes me keep visiting this site!
Congrats, glad you made it!
Congrats!
Being from a non- target, this is a great story. Hard work does pay off
Congrats bro, you earned it.
Congratulations! We're all very proud =)
Congratz, you did it.
Congratulations.
Maybe another piece of advice: -Don't take the weak/unknown IB gig for granted You show people you're willing to work 80+ hours for chump change (paying out of your own pocket), they'll be a dozen places willing to write you the big checks 5+ years down the road. Nothing instills knowledge and hard work, like working for literally nothing.
Somebody vote me down for my poor, 1st year analyst mistakes...
Congrats, good luck going forward!
Congrats! Love these stories...hope you continue to share as you gain more wisdom in your upcoming years,
@corneroffice, As for trolls - we are going developing much more extensive user guidelines over the next month that will allow our moderators to be more aggressive with deleting content from trolls and/or violations to these guidelines.
OP, you think you can send me that list of banks in the Boston Area. Also, are you working in Boston?
congrats and your luck came early!!!
Word of encouragement for non-target students (Originally Posted: 02/12/2007)
Hey guys,
There are many things that I want to point out in this post. I'll try to keep it succinct but with enough details to make the story whole.
Firstly, thank you very much for the creator of www.ibankingoasis.com and all the contributing members. I have been lurking around in this forum for almost six months or more now on anonymous basis and I must say, I have learned a tremendous amount of information.
Secondly, to a certain extent the information on this forum helped me secure a summer internship in HK with one of the top bulge brackets. I am not going into detail on what a “bulge bracket†is in Asia ex-Japan but believe me, the league tables over there are a little (or quite) different than that of USA (I understand that there are numerous posts arguing on what exactly a bulge bracket is – I’ll spare it here. If you have the time, Bloomberg it up).
Thirdly (and this goes for the non-target) people, I can feel your pains and I would like to put in a little word of encouragement and support. Perhaps a little non-revealing background about me would be justified here. I am an undergrad Finance / Accounting major in a top Canadian university with top academics. I have an IBD summer analyst internship under my belt with a top tier Canadian investment bank. Despite the above, American investment banks have this “perverted†sense of elitism of only screening, interviewing and selecting the Ivy Leagues and the target schools. However, I busted my ass to network, network and network for all the opportunities out there and finally landed the situation as I am right now. Seriously, if I took every word that was taken at face value from this forum, I would convince myself to be an absolute failure (i.e. non-target, non-Ivy, non-American) who will have no destiny with investment banking.
To the so-called “non-target†students out there – don’t let some of the people on this board discourage you. When they tell you that you’re not Ivy League and therefore you have no chance in investment banking – tell them that it is complete bullshit. Keep an open mind and keep the perspective. After all, it is YOU who are driving your career and NOT THEM. Just be persistent and patient; a little bit of luck would help too. If I could leave some brief notes for the non-targets, it would be the following:
(ONE) It’s your career and not the career of this forum’s people. Listen to their advice, evaluate it and apply it to yourself. No one single person is exactly the same. Take what’s good and move on to the next good advice from this board and don’t dwell excessively over it.
(TWO) Getting the interview is a lot harder than succeeding in the interviewing. Do whatever you can (i.e. network, network and network) to ensure that SOMEBODY or ANYBODY will LOOK at your resume / cover letter.
(THREE) When it comes to interview, most of the times its more subjective than objective. Yes, it sounds obvious but keep this in mind. That means, when a firm rejects you in an interview, it’s not because you’re the most incompetent person in the world but it may simply be because you don’t fit with the firm’s culture. If you work hard enough, you’ll find a firm that shares the same culture as you. (Mind you that you don’t need to get all the offers out there in the world – you just need one!)
(FOUR) If you’re non-target but you have a Finance / Accounting major, be prepared for TOUGH accounting and finance questions. The “technical†question examples that are posted here are so basic that first year students at my university can answer with breeze. Let me give an example of an actual interview question asked: “How would you prepare CONSOLIDATED balance sheet, income statement and cash flow statement?†“Walk me through the changes in accounting policies (i.e. impacts on the 3 statements + footnote disclosures) when a firm changes from a capital lease to an operating lease (vice-versa). Tell me also the GAAP criteria for differentiating between operating and capital lease.†Also, mind you that some of the answers to the technical questions on this forum are just dead wrong that does not make any sense in either an academic theoretical or actual practice point of view.
(FIVE) As a non-target and when you do get that full-time offer, just remember to GIVE BACK. That means, when a fellow student or alum approaches you for help, don’t be an asshole. Recall those dark days when you were in that hell hole and who had helped you. Heck, even encourage HR at your respective firm to recruit at your alma mater and show HR that you are a living example of a successful professional out of that school. Remember, the name of your undergrad degree and school sticks with you for live. When your students and alum become more and more successful (perhaps with your help in some way or form), your degree also increases in value in reputation and prestige.
I could go on and on but I would just leave it at that.
BOTTOM LINE: Just believe in yourself. If you want it enough, you’ll get it.
Thanks, Canadian. I think you've used this forum to your advantage, and since you've been able to select the information most appropriate to your needs, the whole venture has been a success. Congratulations on the job!
I like the fact that you are reminding people to not believe everything everybody says, because no two situations are the same. Having landed my summer internship a few weeks ago, I can vouch for that. However, you fell in the same trap here as everyone else, when you gave advice on what interviews are like for Finance and Accounting majors. I encourage people to be ready for those questions, but not every firm will ask the same questions (or will focus on the same skills). But like you said, everyone should believe in themselves, do the best that they can and let the banks choose who they want to work with.
If they want you enough, you'll get it.
To mea04tdt:
Thanks for the reply and I really appreciate it. Congrats on your summer internship!
Yes -- I think I have mistakenly fell into the trap of giving one-sided advice on interviewing questions for Finance and Accounting students. On reflection, I think the example questions I have given are the most difficult ones; the more typical ones that I have encountered in actual interviews closely resembles the examples that are often cited here. For that, I owe yourself and the members of this board an apology.
I think my core belief is simply "GIVING BACK." That means, I took so much good information (and filtered out the bad) from this board that it is my duty and responsibility to give something back. Trust me, I would help any of you more if I actually know you in person and not through the anonymity of the internet. As materialistic and money-driven as the investment banking industry and personnel as it is, I still strongly believe that everybody -- regardless of whether you're target or non-target -- goes through the same shit in recruiting. Why not help each other out? At the end of the day, if you have the stuff to succeed, you will. Withholding information (or worst, giving incorrect information) will not help your candidacy.
And again, thanks to mea04tdt for the reply and pointing out the same fallacy I'm urging people to avoid.
Thanks for the post, that was really great advice and it was nice to hear someone finally say it
Those technical questions you listed are all CFA Level 1 material - a walk in the park to any candidate that took L1
And how many people have taken CFA level 1 on this site? You can count them on one hand...
does being cfa coming out of undergrad help in terms of job prospects? Would it be particularly useful if coming from a nontarget?
To: SkipToMylou
Perhaps I could be of some help here. I'll answer this from two perspectives: (1) As an IBD insider; and (2) As an interviewee.
(1) As an IBD insider As mentioned in my post, I did have a summer internship with a top-tier Canadian ibank. (A note for those who are not familiar with the Canadian ibank system -- they offer a 4-month internship here vs. a 10 week program from a bulge bracket / global bank due to the education system here).
I can say that most bankers do not have a CFA. Some people, particularly at the analyst level, would only take the CFA to suit their interests / learning but they all reckon that it adds little to no value to their work or career advancement.
(2) As an interviewee If you don't have a Finance / Accounting background, then perhaps the CFA would be helpful for you; other individuals could perhaps say more to this as I don't belong to this category. If you do have an Finance / Accounting degree, then your degree is almost equivalent to your CFA Level 1 plus a little bit of Level 2 and maybe even a little bit of Level 3 if you're pushing it. Hence, if you belong in the latter category, then I believe that the CFA would add no value to you, especially in ibanking.
Hope that helps.
A finance or accounting degree equals maybe 1/3rd of Level 1. You obviously have never looked at the curriculum if you think it even touches level 2.
Well.... the Canadian universities offer a 4-year business program. So we literally start our finance and accounting courses in first year.
And yes I have looked at the CFA curriculum.
Finally, the point of and my intention of this post is not about the merits of the CFA; rather, it just so happened that somebody mentioned it and I thought it would be nice to reply the post.
I'm pretty much in the boat you used to be; 3rd year about to do a summer @ Big 5 CDN majoring in finance. Really nice to hear that there is hope to make it into the big bulge; any specific tips for us Canadians other than to work our butts off networking?
Thanks!
To zooblar:
Private message me.
I'm wondering if you could speak a little more on the fit interview skills. I feel I missed my first offer because of my lack of technical skills. I realized my problems, and did what I could to be able to adequately answer anything they would dream of asking me, and by the end, I was able to do this with ease.
I come from a semi-target (some interviews on campus). I did get one offer (and was forced to take it because it was exploding before the rest of my interviews), but I did get rejected by two other places which was a bit sobering to me. I guess maybe it is just the way the process is structured - that you have to build yourself up to so many people - that when you get rejected it kind of sucks.
My question is, is there a specific attitude you went in with, to try to best work your chances of getting a job? Should you try to joke around with the people and BS the entire interview if they are willing to do that? Should you be serious and make sure they know why you are the best for the job and why your qualifications would prepare you? Something else?
To anon3333:
Having done at least dozens of different informational interviews, first rounds, second rounds and Superdays, I hope I could add some value to this discussion.
Firstly, it's great that you can hone in on the technical questions. To be quite honest, I personally find the Finance / Accounting technical questions to be relatively easier than the random brainteaser questions that they throw at you; I guess this is a given.
In terms of attitude, I literally walk in with the same attitude for every single interview --- regardless of which round it is. As cliched as this sounds like, I was simply being myself. I had experimented with the "being serious", "being casual and friendly" and "drawing whatever connections I can between me and them" approach and found that they may push me through to the next interview round but they never get me the offer.
If there's anything, I think the following are my two cents to the recipe to a good interview outcome:
(1) Be prepared and answer all the questions. And most importantly, answer THE question.
(2) There's really no point to keep repeating or emphasizing your rationale for "Why you should hire me" in one way or another. Of course, if this is the question, then it is your opportunity to shine. I find it redundant and pointless to close every single answer with a concluding "why I'm so good so hire me" ending.
(3) The luck factor in interviews might be a lot bigger than most people think. You can prepare every thing in the world, answer every single question perfectly and be of the best fit for the firm, but if you don't click naturally (the keyword is "naturally") with the interviewer, it makes it more challenging to move forward. But then again, some interviewers deliberately play the "bad cop" persona; I've met numerous interviewers who are assholes in the interview room but are actually very friendly and casual people.
Perhaps a further justification is due here. Unlike the American ibanking hiring system whereby each decent / bulge bracket firm hires almost 100+ people in each of IBD, Sales & Trading, etc., my interview experiences (i.e. Asia and Canada) are very different from this. That means, I constantly deal with small numbers -- i.e., small number of active firms and firms that hire anywhere from only 1% to 5% of what a typical American bulge bracket would hire (those percentages are for summer analysts; for full-time, it's more like 0.5%). Hence, my experience and insight could be vastly different from many of the members of this forum. The biggest difference might be this -- in my experiences and situations, all the interviewers (i.e. round one to superday) must 120% love you because they only have small amounts of openings so they can afford to be picky. Whereas in other situations -- perhaps -- you only need to be loved "enough". And sometimes when I talk about small openings, I'm talking about 1 - 5 per firm per year.
In the end, and as I mentioned above, you just need that one single offer to succeed. (Of course, that's not to say that multiple offers is a bad thing -- of course not). Just work hard at it.
i'm from a definite nontarget (providence), but have a high gpa (3.85) and decent internship experience, though none with an ibank or anything like that. as a junior i've only heard back from lehman for a cap markets summer analyst job, but have yet to interview. i really want to get into ibanking, but i fear its almost too late at this point to find an internship this summer even with a MM or boutique. anyone know of some more well-respected boutiques still accepting internship apps? if i get the lehman internship i'll likely take it, but i want to keep my options open.
i must say you have given some very helpful information. I have an interview with a big5 Canadian IBD tomorrow and am freaking out. I come from a Canadian school that I bet is lower than non-target status than you came from. Its small, has co-op, from a university town, i think you can do the math. I am in my 2nd year and have a good gpa, you have given me some hope to look to the future.
To adehbone:
Thanks! I really appreciate your comments and your time for reading my post.
Best of luck to your interviews with the Big5 Cdn IBD firms. I'm assuming this is either for Toronto (most likely) or even Calgary positions?
I have a sense which school you're from. Does it start with a "D" by any chance? But I wouldn't fret too much over this target-school thing in Canada. In Canada, everything is pretty liberal and especially so at the Canadian firms; less so at the US-based bulge brackets in Toronto. That means, don't play down yourself in the interview even though you're not from the typical Queens, McGill, Ivey.
Thanks a lot for the detailed response. After doing something like 30 or 40 individual interviews in the past 2 weeks I've had a lot of different experiences, so I am still trying to put it all together to better prepare myself for the future.
I wouldn't say your experience isn't relevant for US positions - in particular, in regional offices it is quite similar. They will bring in between 8 and 15 people for a superday and hire between 1 and 4 people.
I think you have given good advice as well. I think I sort of had the problem you were talking about where you try to bring everything back to why you were the best. I tend to talk a lot, which hurts me, as I can ramble and eventually get away from the topic. I think the key is to build a strong, natural rapport with your interviewer while being succint and specific in your answers. It is ok to joke with them a bit, but it could hurt if you don't talk about anything serious with them at all.
I got some assholes as well, and some robots that I just couldn't connect with for whatever reason. I answered all the questions but at the end I just didn't feel like I did well, even though I said the same exact things as in other interviews that I did feel went well.
In any event, this is a great post and I appreciate your contributions.
Good luck this summer, for both of us and all of the other people on this forum, it is only the first step. We actually still have to get in there and slave away for 10-12 weeks so we can get an offer for next year full time!
Somecdndude: Thanks
Just wondering, what Canadian school is this? Western Ontario?
Yah, Toronto it is. It starts with a W, you may have not heard of it, if your out west. The interview went fine, this looks like the most chill spot on the street, cool guys.
Thanks again,
To adehbone:
Yes I know which university you're talking about. After all, there are just a handful of universities in Canada.
Great that the interview went well for you! Feel free to private message me if you have anything that I could help.
Was the D intended to be Dalhousie? I live in Halifax, so just curious
I would agree with all who have mentioned that a non-target school is no reason to give up. I come from a TOTALLY-non-target school (if there is such a thing) and have an engineering background.
It was hard as hell just getting the interviews, let alone answer the technical questions. Eventually, I did get a full-time offer from a tier 1-2 bank. No one said it would be easy, even for target schools, we only said it would be worth it. :)
A big thank you to everyone who had the guts to ask the 'stupid' questions and bigger thank you to those who replied and provided invaluable insights!
I'm about to attend a Non-Target this fall, what can I do? (Originally Posted: 03/14/2017)
Just got accepted to McMaster Degroote in Canada, it's not on the same level as some of the other schools which I got denied to (Ivey, and Queens). It's my fault for not giving it my all in High School, however if anyone from a non-target has some advice on what I should start doing to better my resume directly in 1st year or any general tips you wish you would have done early on in undergrad, that would be great.
Network and keep your grades up.
As a first year undergrad, how could I network? It might be harder for someone like me then a fully established fourth year. Thanks
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