Comments (44)

Sep 14, 2011

This is for Oil, isn't it?

Friend interviewed for Geneva. Lots of technicals.

Sep 14, 2011

Looks great. I don't think the graduate programme is for trading though right? It states trade finance. deals desk, ops, and such.

Sep 15, 2011
Revolution:

Looks great. I don't think the graduate programme is for trading though right? It states trade finance. deals desk, ops, and such.

Commodities trading is a different animal to equities, FI, FX, etc.

You need the time doing "back office" rotations because the "back office" details are the difference between you booking your profit and wiping out several million. It's also a good way to test your desire to work in this industry, and familiarize yourself with the company so that you "belong" - it's much rarer for people to jump ship although it's no longer the huge taboo that it used to be. Again, unlike the commoditized equities, FI, FX etc. sales, a senior trader jumping ship will take ALL his business with him. Mamadu in Cameroon doesn't care whether John Smith works for Trafi or Glencore, he cares only that he is dealing with John Smith because he knows John Smith's word to be good and John has had lunch with his family in his home village several times.

Can't speak for trafi but traders in this industry are usually "home grown", and the trainee programmes are the feeders into trading desks. By and large wannabe "paper" traders (i.e. Commodities Corp style futures speculators) are not well liked, so make sure you know what the business is about and what you will be doing. How much is a ship of size X from Saudi to Europe? (my first question was "so, how much do you know about the freight markets") What are the main delivery points in the US? What grade of what can go where? How does the hedging work, and why should you do it with futures rather than options? etc.

It's a career that doesn't tend to attract quite as much talent as banking, because of its much lower visibility. But the $ opportunities are just as large - before he left to set up BlueGold, Pierre Andurand worked at Vitol where it is said he was paid 30m one year. I would say the average senior guy will book 1-5m/year with half the banking hours and a lot more revenue regularity; the stars, especially in oil, can take home a lot more, and exit ops are fantastic if you don't enjoy physical trading. We get a lot more bank traders applying to trade physical than physical guys leaving to do bank trading. We are also developing prop desks - including in equities, FX, etc. - as more and more traders are pushed out of banks.

Sep 19, 2011
EURCHF parity:
Revolution:

Looks great. I don't think the graduate programme is for trading though right? It states trade finance. deals desk, ops, and such.

Commodities trading is a different animal to equities, FI, FX, etc.

You need the time doing "back office" rotations because the "back office" details are the difference between you booking your profit and wiping out several million. It's also a good way to test your desire to work in this industry, and familiarize yourself with the company so that you "belong" - it's much rarer for people to jump ship although it's no longer the huge taboo that it used to be. Again, unlike the commoditized equities, FI, FX etc. sales, a senior trader jumping ship will take ALL his business with him. Mamadu in Cameroon doesn't care whether John Smith works for Trafi or Glencore, he cares only that he is dealing with John Smith because he knows John Smith's word to be good and John has had lunch with his family in his home village several times.

Can't speak for trafi but traders in this industry are usually "home grown", and the trainee programmes are the feeders into trading desks. By and large wannabe "paper" traders (i.e. Commodities Corp style futures speculators) are not well liked, so make sure you know what the business is about and what you will be doing. How much is a ship of size X from Saudi to Europe? (my first question was "so, how much do you know about the freight markets") What are the main delivery points in the US? What grade of what can go where? How does the hedging work, and why should you do it with futures rather than options? etc..

EUCHF Parity,

Thanks for the insight.

How are you expected to answer the questions you were asked if you have no working experience? The point of the graduate programme is to teach trainees that stuff right?

For someone who has no experience, what's the best way to learn about the business and be able to answer questions like those?

Oct 6, 2012
EURCHF parity:
Revolution:

Looks great. I don't think the graduate programme is for trading though right? It states trade finance. deals desk, ops, and such.

Commodities trading is a different animal to equities, FI, FX, etc.

You need the time doing "back office" rotations because the "back office" details are the difference between you booking your profit and wiping out several million.

Can you elaborate on that?

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Sep 19, 2011

Read King of Oil (for oil) and Merchants of Grain (for ags), then pick up your phone and see who can help you.

There are few trading spaces in commodities. It is true that not being from a big trading family/merchant background puts you at a disadvantage compared to those who are. Tough, life is unfair and especially in commodities. At least by trying you will be at an advantage over those who think oil is transported by magic instantaneously and for free between continents.

This is why I would advise brilliant problem solvers with mathematical inclinations to stick to structuring, consulting or i-banking. You will find it VERY difficult in this field. If you love commodities you will ignore this and do very well in commodities, of course. But think outside the box and go the extra mile at all times. Best of luck!

Sep 19, 2011

EURCHF parity killing it in this thread. Any other book recommendations? This any good? http://www.amazon.com/Fortunes-Glencore-Charles-Le...

Sep 19, 2011

There's not much in the way of books, and that book is a running joke amongst the readers in the industry. It's actually some Scottish poetry or something similar. Perhaps Glasenberg was a fan...

Sep 19, 2011

got it, thanks for saving me some money :) landing anything in this is super remote for me but might as well give it a shot.

Best Response
Oct 6, 2012

Sure. If you are trading index contracts or FX or selling AAPL to a hedge fund, the product is standardized and the transaction happens in the comfort of the protection of US courts. Everything can be done in seconds (shifting a few billion on EURUSD took 2 clicks at my old firm) and you outsource to the back office everything that isn't the decision of putting on the order.

In commodities, you are dealing with non standardized products (look up how many grades of cotton, or kinds of rice, or barrels of oil there are), shifting from one unstable somewhat untrustworthy place to another. Even in the US, you can see things like stones being loaded with grain, a ship being slanted so it measures as being loaded more than it is, a % admixture a little higher than the contract permits, etc. Any amount of commodity that the seller can take away from the ship is pure profit for him; it's about finding a way for you to be the sucker. And then of course if the price moves against the buyer he can turn away your ship on the basis of some tiny line in the contract you hadn't read, leaving you with extra freight charges for as long as that thing is holding the commodity, and no buyers at an attractive price because, well, the market collapsed.

So the commodity trader doesn't just click, in fact he doesn't click, because there is no online market for most physical commodities (read about Enron Online, and spend a little time in the industry, and you will understand why there never will be one). He has to take decisions on what kind of freight to arrange, who should be booked to check the ship, etc. And then, on the "trading" part of the job, you have issues like it being quite hard to hedge properly. If you want to delta hedge your calendar spread on a US corporate, there is a deep and liquid market for you to buy or sell the underlying and the relationships mostly hold in times of crisis. I've seen commo markets, especially in ags, where the local futures market (the only thing seemingly correlated to whatever you are trading) just does not move as the physical market drops 50%+. Your mark to market P&L gets screwed, and the risk guys come to see you all panicked because they weren't taught this stuff at business school and you have a 10 hour meeting in a very cold conference room trying to explain what is going on to the CEO of your region.

I'll add an unrelated note. I left the industry a year ago to do more fun things and move to Asia. I am finding it impossible to get back in. If you want a career in this stuff, don't leave. Stay loyal to your team and your firm, and wait for the money and the location moves. They will happen in time.

Oct 7, 2012
EURCHF parity:

Sure.... I'll add an unrelated note. I left the industry a year ago to do more fun things and move to Asia. I am finding it impossible to get back in. If you want a career in this stuff, don't leave. Stay loyal to your team and your firm, and wait for the money and the location moves. They will happen in time.

Well, you'll always second-guess yourself. That's human-nature. Had you not left you'd probably think about all the great things you could do in Asia instead. All the time. Bottom line: Don't look back. :D

I have some follow-up questions, if you don't mind:

1) Enron Online: I couldn't find any good links on how this was a colossal failure, and from a paper commodities perspective it actually seems like a good idea to have such a platform. I.e. it feels everybody could benefit if you try to somewhat standardize products and bundle liquidity. Apparently it does not. Why?

2) Getting screwed: How often does this happen? Is it to be expected that some ship is weighted incorrectly or somebody does pretend a contract is not valid so they don't have to accept some shipment? I'm cause in the paper commodities community this is basically unheard of. Sure you can declare a mistrade but almost nobody does it ever, if somebody does a large compliance nightmare might follow and if somebody does it again people will probably stop having him as a counterparty.

3) Financial commodities: I wonder how the physical industry's attitude towards financial commodities is since that's were I got my internship experience. Do you think that would be seen as a plus, as physical trading probably involves a lot of the issues that paper trading involves -plus- all the other challenges you described above?

4) I would guess that some physics/chemistry/biology knowledge is helpful when dealing with commodities? Do you think this is a prerequisite, for example when doing physical trading in industrial metals would it give some candidate an edge to be highly knowledgeable in metallurgy? Or is it rather an on-the-job learning experience and you can pick that knowledge up while working?

Cheers!

Oct 7, 2012

1) Mainly it gave them a huge edge to know exactly what every other player was doing - with as little effort as setting up a network and getting people to participate on it. It was a nice source of (legitimate) profit, in commodities with weird regulations (you could make money by getting electricity out of California and back in) and low transparency.

2) No idea. Never traded physical myself. The people I interacted with who did, ALL constantly complained about it, especially the famous "Paki fly by night operators" who specialize in setting up a new firm after screwing you. And we had several hours of training on reading contracts for that reason, so I assume it's a common issue. Re: not trading with the guy again, if you're a West African farmer who sold to Glencore at 80 and the market is at 150 and completely dry of any supply, you won't think twice before telling Glencore to stuff it and selling it to the Noble guy helpfully turning up to scoop up your crop. Goes the other way too - some countries were acquired to a single company for the duration of the life of the guy who was responsible for importing a certain commodity. I'm leaving this one nice and vague. Disappearing trend as local brokers turn up and the locals realize that 30% above/below market price is not what should be happening.

3) "Bank guy" or "broker" = "the guy who takes me out to cool places for free". Beyond that the ones I dealt with were as indistinguishable as the bank names on my FX trading platform. At least the electronic platform doesn't send you cute girls to bend your judgement.

4) Depends on the commodity. Might be useful in petrochemicals? Agro def is an edge in agriculturals. For metals, understanding how screwed up stuff like scales work is probably harder than being able to quote the elements in an assay. At the end of the day it's a spreadsheet, with numbers and a dollar value...

Oct 7, 2012
EURCHF parity:

Sure. If you are trading index contracts or FX or selling AAPL to a hedge fund, the product is standardized and the transaction happens in the comfort of the protection of US courts. Everything can be done in seconds (shifting a few billion on EURUSD took 2 clicks at my old firm) and you outsource to the back office everything that isn't the decision of putting on the order.
[...]

Waow. This is good stuff. Appreciate it. TY very much.

Oct 9, 2012

cool thanks!

Oct 9, 2012

Physical trader here (mainly products).

EURCHF highlighted many of the key points--here are is my 2 cpg.

Physical traders are grown in shop and most traders don't even touch/trade wet bbls until spending 2-3 years in operations; you simply can't learn the markets or the industry without knowing the logistics of how to move product. I'm not talking basic "gasoline is in a pipeline Oil 101 stuff (though that is a great book to begin with", I'm talking the different batch cycles on the Colonial pipeline, NS/CSX/UP/BN ethanol plants for rail, barge traffic on rivers, refineries with tankage/rail headed west (you saw what CARBOB did last week) or the physical truck loading racks in Atlanta. It takes time to learn the logistics of how to move things in and out of markets and the truly top physical traders who know the operations make bank by being creative--the "wait, if I buy a barge and denature it in VA, I could sell it at NYH for a premium if the spread pops".

Loyalty and integrity are incredibly important in physical trading. Most traders trade over Yahoo/phone and it's a very personal relationship; it isn't uncommon to go on trips together or ask about your counterparty's kid. If you screw over your counter party, they can refuse to do business with you and word will spread throughout the community. Sure loyalty to your firm is important but even when phys guys change shops, there are dealing with the same people one way or another. Some shops don't own any assets (they aren't marketers) and the only thing that keeps them in business is your reputation and relationship with specific counter parties.

Oct 10, 2012
blender:

It takes time to learn the logistics of how to move things in and out of markets and the truly top physical traders who know the operations make bank by being creative--the "wait, if I buy a barge and denature it in VA, I could sell it at NYH for a premium if the spread pops".

Thanks for the contribution blender. Got a couple of questions if you don't mind.
1. Would you say having a solid foundation in logistics is the most vital part of physical trading?
2. How strongly of a effect does the macro conditions have on the crude market? As physical traders how often do you keep an eye on the GDP growth/forecast other econ statistical data of demand regions?
3. Is the business model based on profiting numerous low risk arbs consistently, or does the most traders make big bucks by having doing a through analysis and take on big positions only couple of times a year?
4. What information would you recommend to learn the logistics, other than Oil 101 (great book)

Oct 11, 2012
TheHoustonFlight:

Thanks for the contribution blender. Got a couple of questions if you don't mind.
1. Would you say having a solid foundation in logistics is the most vital part of physical trading?
2. How strongly of a effect does the macro conditions have on the crude market? As physical traders how often do you keep an eye on the GDP growth/forecast other econ statistical data of demand regions?
3. Is the business model based on profiting numerous low risk arbs consistently, or does the most traders make big bucks by having doing a through analysis and take on big positions only couple of times a year?
4. What information would you recommend to learn the logistics, other than Oil 101 (great book)

Here are my thoughts:
1) Whatever commodities houses you get into you will have an in dept training. These companies are "old school" and it's just the way they work. Btw I think that being in the middle of a process is the best way to learn about it. All previous knowledge you accumulated before will essentially be useful to not sound like a douch during ITW and will make your learning easier.
2)Very important in my opinion, it's basic supply/demand. This is the second most important thing to look at after knowing what the supply is.
3) Both. As I said this business is old school (nothing negative here). You have to have big balls to succeed. Sometimes it means playing (very) big.
4) I don't know. A book that seems interesting but I haven't read yet is "King of Oil", it's about Marc Rich.

Disclaimer: I'm just a student who is looking to get into the industry.

Oct 11, 2012
TheHoustonFlight:
blender:

It takes time to learn the logistics of how to move things in and out of markets and the truly top physical traders who know the operations make bank by being creative--the "wait, if I buy a barge and denature it in VA, I could sell it at NYH for a premium if the spread pops".

Thanks for the contribution blender. Got a couple of questions if you don't mind.
1. Would you say having a solid foundation in logistics is the most vital part of physical trading?
2. How strongly of a effect does the macro conditions have on the crude market? As physical traders how often do you keep an eye on the GDP growth/forecast other econ statistical data of demand regions?
3. Is the business model based on profiting numerous low risk arbs consistently, or does the most traders make big bucks by having doing a through analysis and take on big positions only couple of times a year?
4. What information would you recommend to learn the logistics, other than Oil 101 (great book)

  1. It's definitely important--it won't make you but it can break you.One of my favorite examples is a product trader at "relatively well known" shop in the north east, who got confused which state a certain city was in and ended up losing his bonus and trucking at 50 cpg loss. It's important to spend the 2-3 years to learn the nuts and bolts of how your product moves, as well as risk management and to a lesser degree credit/payment terms , to become a competent trader.
  2. It's important since those numbers will move WTI and Brent, and most deals have some pricing based on the benchmarks. Paper traders will eye those numbers more closely than physical, as most term deals tend to be over the course of a few weeks/months so the intraday moves don't matter too much. Keep in mind that there is a whole gamut of other markets (mars bbls, LLS, etc) that have bid/asks published by Platts/OPIS/brokers--those don't necessarily move in line with WTI.
  3. Both--you want to try to make money. Most traders have a steady stream of low-risk arbs but will always be looking for medium size trades (maybe playing Chicago/harbor spread for EtOH). For the big banner years, I'd like to say those trades are well researched, sometimes they are but often times it's just taking a market view and going with it. Keep in mind that every bbls/penny adds up and one doesn't have to make money off a big CPL push. When you are driving around and see a gas station, remember that each of those stations have to buy their gasoline/ethanol/etc from someone and that there is plenty of money (albeit less glamorous but prestige/glamour in my eyes takes a back seat to PnL) supplying little spot markets and making a few cpg here and there.
  4. Sadly there isn't really much you can do without being on a desk/dispatch. Maybe start reading the Argus/Platts/OPIS reports to get an idea for the freight/energy markets. My advice would be to read everything you can about the market/product you are interested in (Oil 101, bloomberg, Gartman, Schork, etc). There is a freight charter course online you can take as well.
Oct 11, 2012

Was going to have a longer reply then blender did a better job at answering.

One thing frustrating me though...

If investment banking is on one end of the spectrum, physical trading is on the other. Unlike investment banking, there are no skills that are necessarily more important than the others, there is no book you can buy to give you all the answers, there is absolutely no defined path to becoming a physical trader, and so on.

Once you know the market well enough, then people will start considering you for a trading role. But a market that is decentralized for a non-standardized physical product, versus a centralized market trading one exact product, is going to be waaay more complex and simply be much harder to learn.

Keep in mind, however, that this makes you more valuable down the line. If banks take a year or two minimum to train their traders (at least in the past), and that was for a centralized market with standard, uniform, electronic contracts, there is way less to learn, and it still takes them a year or two.

In my opinion, being considered for a trading role after even 3 years is very generous of some of these companies to do.

You do those roles to learn the market, because it's the only way, and once they feel you know that market well enough, then they'll start to consider you for a trading role. It's very subjective.

I want to repeat that. There are no "tricks," "paths," "books," "websites," or anything else you can find that will help you learn the physical market. They do not exist - if they do, you will have a very hard time making sense of them. If they do exist, you will spend an incredible amount of time to learn what would take a very short amount of time at a physical shop.

Oct 11, 2012

Bear in mind the type of people are very different too. I spent half an hour explaining to a VERY senior trader (former head of one of our desks, heading to be head of another) why he couldn't have the ECB fixing 2 weeks in advance ("if I knew what it was I could make a killing"). I cannot count the number of sharp operators who asked me to explain first level greeks to them ("why should I not sell puts? look at the price man!" "yes, but options are not about price, they are about implied vol..."), whilst they were able to source and ship stuff from 40 countries including Myanmar without thinking about it. One of my favorite ags traders was good at only one thing: befriending the guy and making him believe he had a fantastic deal. He sucked at maths, most definitely, except for what his margin would be, but his amazing ability to BS and befriend counterparties made him a very good trader. I will always remember the time he called me to say "Dude! I just screwed this guy so hard, and he was so happy he invited me for dinner. Ka-ching!" It's not an industry (except in more complex stuff like oil and metals) that favours the math head, unless he is very good at relationships.

Regarding the lifestyle, I can only say that if you trade with Russian counterparties, and they like you, it will be FUN. But you will need a cover story for your wife.

Oct 12, 2012
EURCHF parity:

Regarding the lifestyle, I can only say that if you trade with Russian counterparties, and they like you, it will be FUN. But you will need a cover story for your wife.

Suddently applicants to Gunvor/Trafigura...
THOUSANDS OF THEM

Oct 13, 2012

Thanks guy. I will definitively have a look when I finish Energy trading & investing by Edwards.

Oct 16, 2012

Quick question:
I read that VBA is quite useful in an S&T programs and I have the opportunity to learn the basics in school. Given that I want to work in a physical shop and not in a bank my question is:
Are you guys in shops using VBA or not at all ?

    • 1
Oct 16, 2012

VBA/programmings are useful but definitely don't give you a definitive edge. Most energy OTC products trades over phone or Yahoo messenger, and the most complex calculations I have used was simply adding/subtracting or converting units.

Feb 2, 2013

Quick question,

I currently trying to plan my cover letter for trafigura graduate position and was wondering if anyone could give me any good tips on important information i should include that would be relevant for this position, considering the position is based on rotation within trafigura, Hope you can help, thanks

Aug 2, 2013

Traded in the renewables physical world (ethanol, biodiesel, soybean oil, etc) for some time. The best physical traders are the guys in the market 24/7 and can put freight, hedges, the right counterparty, and the right bullshit together (basically a million puzzle pieces to create the largest profit possible and then reworking that future trade for further arbs). Out of the box thinking here is the key to serious profits. This is not your corporate fin IB job to create a deck and cool looking football field.

Also, no one will know or understand what you do unless they have in the industry themselves. Got asked by my family and friends how the stock market was doing constantly...told them "its moving in some direction"

    • 1
Oct 9, 2016

So do you find it easy to switch to pe/hf from their graduate program? LOL

Oct 9, 2016

If you want to become a physical trader, it's as good as any and most likely much better than starting at a BB. I think the purpose of Traf's program is to put you on the short-track to become a trader, but of course that's no guarantee. But unless you go through ops/scheduling, you most likely will never trade physical.

Oct 9, 2016

If you want any shot of physical trading, this is your best shot.

Oct 9, 2016

Thanks guys. Yes, if I want to be a phys trader this is obviously the best opportunity. What I am concerned with is how to discount that CHANCE versus a guaranteed FO offer.

Maybe the best and most informative way to proceed is to discuss what one's options are if they do a couple years in Ops/Sched but don't get a trading seat. Obviously you could try to lateral to a spot, but would buyside shops be interested in you?

Oct 9, 2016

Also keep in mind that just because you will be officially in an FO trading program, its not a 100% you will be given an actual trading seat. You still have to prove yourself first. So in that sense its very similar. And if you want to do physical you will need to go through the ops side becuase its such a crucial element of it.

Oct 9, 2016

best way to become a trader at trafi is to come in from somewhere else

Oct 9, 2016
Tupac:

best way to become a trader at trafi is to come in from somewhere else

Is this true? So they dont promote from within very often?

Oct 9, 2016

not saying it doesn't happen just saying it's easier from what i've heard

Oct 9, 2016

First, congrats on the offers! If you want to do phys trading, that's an excellent place to start, but you of course have a significant opportunity cost turning down
BB trading offers. Essentially, you have no guarantees to become a trader if you go through this program, but if that's really your goal that shouldn't stop you, as if you're good and you want it badly enough there is no reason you wouldn't make it.

However, there are a few things to consider. 1st, BB trading offers more "exit opps" than the traf program (HFs etc), and I even heard that Traf hires a decent number of people from BB trafing roles (probably more on the paper side, but there are a few on the phys side as well). So if youre not 100 % you want to do phys, bbs are a safer bet I would think. 2nd, I heard it's really though to get promoted at traf to a trader position from within; from what I heard, on the phys side the most likely path is to do 1-2 year in ops or risk, an then go spend 2-5 years in a field office (In South america, asia, africa...) in a junior trading role where you progressively take more responsibilities. If you wouldn't accept to be transferred to some shithole in Africa in the blink of an eye with no return date set, I would not take the traf offer, as they're extremdly though on people turning down transfer requests.

Finally, if after 2-3 years youre still in ops, your options are: 1) stay in ops, become head of ops for a product; its really not a bad job and the pay is quite good ( albeit significantly lower than a BSD in trading of course) 2)move to a smaller house in a junior trading role ( just saw a guy from glencore make this move) 3) mba or whatever. But honesly traf is quite fair I hear, if you're good and deemed "commercial" (good at sales) you'll get a junior trading role snd if youre good but deemed less commercial you'll probably get a shot at paper trading.

    • 1
Oct 9, 2016
f4tality:

First, congrats on the offers! If you want to do phys trading, that's an excellent place to start, but you of course have a significant opportunity cost turning down
BB trading offers. Essentially, you have no guarantees to become a trader if you go through this program, but if that's really your goal that shouldn't stop you, as if you're good and you want it badly enough there is no reason you wouldn't make it.

However, there are a few things to consider. 1st, BB trading offers more "exit opps" than the traf program (HFs etc), and I even heard that Traf hires a decent number of people from BB trafing roles (probably more on the paper side, but there are a few on the phys side as well). So if youre not 100 % you want to do phys, bbs are a safer bet I would think. 2nd, I heard it's really though to get promoted at traf to a trader position from within; from what I heard, on the phys side the most likely path is to do 1-2 year in ops or risk, an then go spend 2-5 years in a field office (In South america, asia, africa...) in a junior trading role where you progressively take more responsibilities. If you wouldn't accept to be transferred to some shithole in Africa in the blink of an eye with no return date set, I would not take the traf offer, as they're extremdly though on people turning down transfer requests.

Finally, if after 2-3 years youre still in ops, your options are: 1) stay in ops, become head of ops for a product; its really not a bad job and the pay is quite good ( albeit significantly lower than a BSD in trading of course) 2)move to a smaller house in a junior trading role ( just saw a guy from glencore make this move) 3) mba or whatever. But honesly traf is quite fair I hear, if you're good and deemed "commercial" (good at sales) you'll get a junior trading role snd if youre good but deemed less commercial you'll probably get a shot at paper trading.

Thanks for the comments and the time it took to write that, I appreciate it. May I ask- is this info secondhand/hearsayish or did work there or had a close contact that did? The insights are definitely worhtwhile either way, i am just trying to get a handle on how much salt to take them with. For what it is worth they match with all my impressions from interviews...

To all- does it makes any difference in Traf told me I was their "singluar, most outstanding candidate?" Or is that just BS to get me to sign the offer.

Oct 9, 2016
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