Turn down McK and keep dreaming?
Hi everyone,
I'm new here but I've been following the forum for quite a while and I find it very interesting.
I'm a engineering undergrad at a good university in Europe (though not target for finance, but definitely for the industrial world). I interned twice in management consulting and have the opportunity to start fulltime next year at McK.
However, I feel that my longterm goal is to work in the financial industry (IB/HF/PE), since I've always been interested more in the financial side of businesses.
The problem is obviously that banks do not recruit at my current campus.
So I'd have to join a target school for a Masters program, which would cost me additional 2 years (plus 1 year doing all the prereq courses), but then I will be able to get in contact with BBs.
Alternatively, I could start off with McK, apply to a top MBA program after 3 years, and network with banks and buyside firms in business school.
But, after doing quite some research on the web, I'm not sure what chances are to move to the buyside after MBA without prior-MBA IB experience (e.g. PE almost ONLY recruits from IB analyst pools), and I'm also not sure how 3 years of consulting experience will be valued by buyside firms these days.
Important note: The last thing I want to start here is another McK vs GS battle where I believe that the greatest one is already on this board. I seek to collect your opinions towards the possible paths:
1. Masters in Finance at target school ---> IBD ---> PE/HF
2. McK ---> MBA ---> IBD ---> PE/HF
3. McK ---> MBA ---> PE/HF
So, if you were me, what would you do?
Thanks a lot!
You can always move from McK to most PEs after 2-3 years as a consultant. Especially in Europe, the focus isn't so much only on IB Analysts but also on Consultants. Given the current trend away from just financial engineering to operational engineering, consultants are becoming more and more interesting candidates for funds. I would advise you to take the McK offer and make use of the McK network to get into PE. If that doesn't work out immediately after 2 years, you can always take your leave, do an MBA at a good school and try that way.
it genuinly is mind boggling how someone can think that doing another 3 years in school, spending 75k plus in the process and not really getting on the job skills or references would be a better option that starting at one of the most prestigious mngt consultancies in the world, getting paid for it, getting references for future jobs as well as practical skills.
Also you say your goal is to work in IB/HF/PE, thats quite generic to say the least, so doesnt sound like you have done the research or decided on what you actually want to do, which makes it even more ridiculous that you would go through another 3 years of school for it.
Its a no brainer, do McKinsey.
lol McK + MBA to get into IBD as an Associate? Nice logic.
MCK FTW
Believe it or not, I've seen quite a few Mckinsey consultants directly get into PE after a few years. I can't imagine turning down to chance to work at Mckinsey. Don't throw away an opportunity like this. Many would kill to be in your position and work at Mckinsey. The brand name is just that good.
Besides working there opens doors to many routes. In a few years time you might realize that you don't actually want to be in finance and you actually want to do something different altogether.
More than a few European megafunds take in a significant number of consultants, Permira comes to mind, but even traditional US players such as BainCap. Interestingly, many London funds take ex-consultants without MBAs.
Take McK, don't look back, you'll be golden for PE in two years. Seriously. And I'm not biased, since I'm in a BB.
Getting a pre-MBA McKinsey gig is far more impressive than getting a typical analyst job in sell-side investment banking. Working there will not significantly hinder your chances of getting a pre-MBA buy-side job provided that's what you really want to do.
In short, you're crazy, OP. Congrats.
Thank you all very much for your replies and encouraging words! And espacially nice to get insights from people working in the industry.
It looks like McK cannot be a bad choice anyway and provides good ex opps to finance, which is nice to hear. And of course, I'm actually very glad to have that opportunity and will seriously think about it.
BUT (and I have to state the but because this is gonna be a major decision)...
I'm still convinced (also after seeing how some of you respect consultants lol) that 2-3 yrs IBD would provide more ex opp in the financial industry. But it means also 3 more years of education for a Masters, since it's next to impossible to break in with my current degree (engineering, 3.6, non finance target). 3 yrs certainly hurts yes... But it CAN also be the right investment: in europe there are some places BBs regularly recruite from their Masters programs, so, if admitted to the program, chances are not bad to land an analyst position. And if ending up with no offers, one can still get a good job outside finance. So the downside of this is limited, but the upside much higher (kinda asymmetric return?) You're absolutely right that 3 yrs are a great amount of time, but I mean, compared to the 40+ yrs one has to work, it can't be sooo essential can it ?
@ametista: thank you for your encouraging comment. Since you're in BB, I wanna ask you, is it possible to join an IB analyst program after 2 years McK? Or does one have to do MBA and join as an associate? The thing I've about associates is that they have less ex opps than IB analysts since they're considered to have a longterm banking career. But no clue if it's true.
@derivstrading: yes I didnt state what EXACTLY I want to do, because I can't due to my lack of experience. I'm interested in a job where valuation and financial modeling / fundamental analysis play a role, and it is applied in both PE ad HF (or at least some of them). If it sounds ridiculous to you well, I cant do much about it unfortunately...
@nycbandar: if it is the common way wallst looks at consultants then I'll rethink 10x before going to McK (lol)
Thanks again!
Please - please - don't go back to school. You'd be making a big mistake, even if your ultimate goal is to work in finance. I personally know several guys from MBB backgrounds that went straight into PE after two years along with their IB counterparts. More still moved from MBB over to IB either during their analyst stint or afterwards. You're going to have a much better shot getting the job you want with McK on your resume than with three more years of school, I guarantee it.
Why the hell would you want to do an BB Analyst stint after 2 years at McK? That experience already puts you way ahead of any of the new analysts they have joining, i.e the option of jumping to PE, positioning yourself very well for a top MBA, and a host of other opportunities that will randomly pop up after the conclusion of your time there. If you're really dead-set on banking, go get an MBA afterwards or (preferably) gun for a PE stint then do an MBA. Keep in mind that there will be people breaking in banking as post-MBA associates with less impressive backgrounds than yours.
In short, you'd be insane to pass up an opportunity to work at one of the most well-branded firms in the world to waste more money and time on more school. Not only are you spending money and incurring opportunity cost, but you may actually set yourself back professionally considering you will have years and years of school with zero real experience after it's all said and done.
Everyone else has said much of what I already would, but I would also point out a route a lot of people didn't mention. You can always take the McKinsey position, get 6 months of work experience under your belt, and start looking for banking jobs. The old adage 'it's always easier to find a job while you have one' is very true, and in your case, you're looking to move from the most well-regarded, "prestigious" management consultancy ... so it's not like you've been a slouch in terms of your first job.
There's a guy who sits pretty close to me in my group (one of the ones well-trumpeted about on this site) who spent one year at McKinsey before moving over. He's doing well; 5 months into his first year, he recruited for PE. That would have happened anyway given the group we are in, but he really stood out because not only was he in a very well-regarded group, but he had an additional year of experience to bring to the table during the interview process and to his work if they hired him. So they hired him. They basically got a two-for-one; a guy who is going to be a financial guru when he starts, but also has the broader skill-set of a consultant. He didn't have to go back to school after working in consulting, he didn't delay graduation to stay in school longer, he took an amazing job and then figured out how to maneuver himself into the role he really wanted.
As a disclaimer, I don't know the first thing about recruiting in Europe, I really don't. This advice may not apply as well to you, but I hope you find it helpful.
McK/BCG will definitely give you a shot at many of the PE funds in Europe. Just to point that out: I'm currently working on a presentation for one of our clients which happens to be a pretty well-known PE fund. They have quite a few former consultants in their team besides the usual GS/JPM/MS monkeys. One of them has been a summer analyst at Goldman's Nordic M&A desk and started full time at McK in their "corporate finance" practice. Another Associate spent two years at BCG before joining the fund.
I wouldn't be too concerned about the McK -> PE transition. However, if you are planning to go down the HF route, banking is the better choice for sure.
This. You're being dealt a great hand. Play it
agree with McK...
Take McK and go do PE, its very doable in Europe. Just prepare to get completely fucking raped in your first year in PE (gl building an LBO if you've been finger painting for the last 3 years).
If your set on the HF side McK will be kind of useless though.
It seems like OP just wants to have "Investment Banking Analyst" somewhere on his resume...instead of focusing on more logical, tangible goals.
OP, you say you want to go to the buyside in the long run. Well from what more experienced posters have repeated, working at MCKINSEY will give you those exit ops.
You don't NEED to have "Investment Banking Analyst @ ______ Firm" on your resume to land a PE gig.
I think this is it.
People on this board need to stop giving horrible advice re: career mobility.
Going into a consultancy does not mean u cant get into an HF, PE etc etc, you can do what you want. I know of a guy personally who did McK and then ended up trading in an HF. Moving jobs is not about the CV, its about you and what skills/knowledge you can bring to the table.
Also OP, you are thinking of doing another 3 years in school to POTENTIALLY get a sellside BB gig instead of taking a guaranteed McKinsey offer in a time when BB''s are massively cutting down and at the same time giving up probably close to 175k gbp of compensation for it and paying 75k gbp+ for the education.
And you think this is an assymetric risk with little downside? What the actual fck?
Is this really a "McK vs. Going back to school in Europe during the most difficult financial crisis scenario since 1929 with major banks downsizing thier IBD practices" thread? 1) getting into McK is probably as difficult or more difficult than getting into GS and sure like hell more difficult than getting into Barclays, CS, DB etc. so you really put yourself ahead; 2) who the fuck cares about those Wall Street morons who think a McK consultant is a pussy? Were you a nerd who had some bullism problem at high school? This is not a "who has the longest penis" decision and anyone who thinks a jpm banker is always smarter than a McK guy is an idiot; 3) i have seen ppl from less regarded firms (read LEK and ATK) landing jobs in nice funds with >7 bln AuM; 4) if you still want to move to banking you can move directly as an analyst or post MBA and this would save you some hair and some furrows, give you a more extended network, a diverse skills set and 2 years of party at HBS or Wharton or, if you are not a top performer at McK at MIT or CBS which is not that bad; 5) people will ask you during interviews 3 yrs from now, if you go back to school, why MCK did not hire you after 2 internships and if they find out you rejected an offer to go back to school they will label you as an idiot/insane person; 6) IBD is not a finance think tank. Ppl in the industry know that what you do as an analyst is something a monkey can do. You may end up hating it and you did not even try it with an internship. Did you like consulting? If you think you can do it, don't miss this chance to try to get something you may hate; 7) do you really know how successful ppl from McK usually are? Almost any CEO at top firms in my european country was there at some point down his career...
Thank you all so much for your replies. It really looks like it would be insane not to take the McK offer.
Well, I think you somehow got me. You know, I've always hated justifying myself when I do or try to do something. I hate it if ppl stare at me and ask me "what are YOU doing here" and I've to tell them "well I'm here because bla bla bla..." So I kinda thought it would be the same in finance: I apply to a fund with 5 other former GS/MS/JP guys and they'll ask me "what the hell are YOU doing here, you dont belong to here and try to take our job away what the **** ", then I'll have to tell them "well I've been interested in finance blabla...", just to get slashed down again in the next moment... So I thought with IB analyst on my resume I would avoid all that inconvenient moments. --> It was my original thought though, and after reading your posts, seems like theres nothing to worry about it.
Yeah the risk-reward-analysis should be revised I guess : )
So to summarize briefly:
Again thank you very much for your time, and any further opinions/views would be much appreciated.
Peace
You could also consider the fact that you may actually develop a strong interest and liking to consulting after your stint with McKinsey...who knows.
Life never really goes according to plan anyways.
This
Masters degrees are a Farking JOKE!!!
75k to get a piece of paper, or you could get paid to get experience and move on without it.
newbs
European masters aren't 75k and its a lot more common to do them.
lol
They'll also fold his laundry and jerk him off periodically.
What the fuck, OP?
Take McK, and don't look back. Enjoy working 60% as much as bankers, with 80% of the pay, and about 50,000% the potential exit opportunities. Not to mention it likely being a lot easier to get into a great MBA program, if that's where you eventually want to go.
I'd give Matt Damon a handy to land a job at McK. No questions asked.
OP,
No disrespect but I think you are over-analyzing and over-thinking scenarios that doesn't really matter.
You should not even care about what people think whether you should be there or not. YOU should be the one knowing why you are there, how you are going to add value for the company and further your own development.
What matters is that you now know that: McK --> PE/HF in Europe is a very likely possibility. My opinion is that you should take the McK offer, be the best that you can be at your gig and opportunities will surely come knocking.
Going back to school for 3 years, at its best case, only provides you with a sellside analyst gig, which is a downgrade from McK's worst case scenario outcome i.e. you need to go for a MBA.
We are here to help you but ultimately you must make your own decision.
All the best.
MCK by far. OP that name is worth gold on your resume especially if you are a top performer there.
What? This is beyond retarded...
This
How'd this pussy get an offer?
Seriously, if you can't figure out why you should take it, it makes me question the hiring process at McK.
Take McK, kill it, and either (i) lateral to BB IB during first couple years (ii) directly to PE after first couple years or during them or (iii) Top MBA into IB/PE (harder, esp. if through IB associate route). Europe is different than US, EU much more open to consultants in PE. Also, not sure if you have a trust fund, but working at McK and earning $$ is better than 3 years more in school. You might even be able to get them to pay for your MBA although I know it comes with strings (1 year after commit?). I am fairly unbiased: BB IB --> Ivy MBA.
I want to call you bad names but I won't. Take the McK gig, you're torturing these sad college kids.
Incredible how you are able to get a job offer from McK but can't seem to figure this one out...
Thank you all for your comments.
@cibo: ppl like you are the exact reason why I hesitate consulting online boards... if you dont believe it, I cant force you. You neither know me nor my work during the internship nor the relation to my coworkers/managers, so it's somehow difficult what you say (plus your interesting choice of words).
And hell yes, I find myself in a truly weird situation, having that great opportunity on the one hand and wanting go to finance on the other. Thats what makes the situation so difficult. But as you said, the transition is doable which is nice ofc.
A friend of mine has an undergrad degree in business and interned in IBD at a major BB. He could also have stayed for an analyst stint. But instead, he went on to LSE for a Masters in Finance (2 yrs), to position himself better. This shows that a Masters degree (at least in Europe) is really not that bad as many of you think, even if one has the opportunity to work straight out of undergrad.
@YGH: you say it, at the end of the day I have to make the decision and be accountable for that.
@Angus: I agree with 60% of hours and 80% of pay (but still, it'll be less, maybe also 60%). On ex opp: 50000% in total maybe, but in finance, it's likely to be 50%. You realize? It's just gonna be a 60/60/50, instead of 100/100/100
@euromonkey: thanks I have these options in mind too. McK will pay half the tuition for 1 year commit afterwards. Or you can pay it on your own to be able to change right out of BS.
Peace
You'd have to be out of your mind to turn down MCK. Plenty of people go directly to PE/HF from there. And you can still network/apply to finance jobs after working at MCK for a year; you'll likely be much more attractive with a year of MCK than with a masters and no work experience.
Like I stated before, OP just wants "Investment Banking Analyst at _____ Firm in _____ Group".
Case closed.
This is wrong.
So, you are still saying that a Master positions yourself better than a FT offer? I am European and nothing can position you better for full time than GETTING a BLOODY FULL TIME OFFER. How can you say "he had a FT offer in IBD in a BB and he went back to LSE for a MSc to position himself better". What is "better"? Seriously, you can go back to MSc if you don't have a full time job. I am European, I did my MSc but I did it because there was no way to get a top job from my unknown undergrad.
Man, stop a second and just think that you have not tried banking. Banking is not nice, especially at the analyst level. If you end up doing something you did not like with 30K pounds/euro committed you will spend every day of your next 2-3 yrs (at least) thinking about the opportunity you just wasted. McK is THE TOP. It can open you so many doors that you cannot even imagine. If you perform well, they will send you to HBS, Wharton or Stanford and from there you can target IBD of PE directly and just jump the analyst-shitty part. Don't even think about a 1 yr commitment or something. THEY will open that door and then, with the MBA, you can go wherever you want and just refund them back (which is doable when you get into a PE firm of even as an IBD associate).
Why the fuck are you asking for advice here if you do not pay attention to what other people are telling you? No one on earth will advise you to lay down a McK offer to go back to school for a MSc to look for an IBD job (which you can still get while working at McK). And, just to clarify, if you start at McK and during the summer you apply to IBD graduate programs, you will get the chance to interview with several firms (i.e. Evercore, MS and Nomura who usually consider, in Europe, also people that are currently working in respected firms).
Accept the offer at McK, network over to finance.
Problem solved.
@cruel3a: Well I hear you I understand your point, I really do and I appreciate it. But please just take another second to try to understand me:
I'm gonna tell you a (true) story I've heard in some online audio interview (no clue which site and when it was): There was a guy who has graduated from MIT and worked 3 years for McK, he's done some PE related due dill project while he was there, and made it into the HBS mba program. Before winter began, recruiters came on campus: wellknown HFs, PEs etc. He actually got interested in investing prior mba through his little "PE experience", so he joint the HF/PE recruiting sessions as well, together with 40-50 other experienced HF analysts who were also in that program. And he talked to those HF recruiting people over and over... Now it comes: ALL he had realized was that even the recruiters talk to him, they did it SOLELY out of politeness, and in reality, they didn't care a SHIT about his former consulting background. You understand? He was a top performer at McK and those HF guys didnt care a SHIT about his experience. Why should they?? They had a tone of experienced hedgefunders to choose from, why waste even a second thinking about some consulting guy? For him, that was hard, sad, but it was the reality. Same with PE megafunds (Blackstone/KKR).
He ended up cold calling small funds, organizing weekend trips to nyc, conducting lots of meetings on his own, always offering unpaid internships, week after week after week, and finally got an internship offer. You think this way of finding an internship is glorious and prestigous?? Then lol to that...
So please understand that the "McK--mba--buyside" route is just b******t. It is and will always be a myth that you can do everything you want with MBB and HBS on your resume. You just cant.
Now you might say: well then do MBB-->PE pre-mba. Yes it can really be an option and I'm seriously considering it. But let's be honest, what kind of PE firm can you target? Blackstone? KKR? TPG? There is actually a huge risk to end up in some small sector focusing funds. Would that seriously help me to keep up with all those goldman guys in business school?
And to refer back to my friend: after his Masters at LSE, will he be able to return to the bank he interned at? Of course. Will he have a higher chance to join a better bank? Abso - freakin - lutely. HE has no downside with his Masters. Not - a - bit.
And thinking about my risk-reward-analysis above: even after the Masters, I would have a good chance to come back to consulting due to my good relationships already to the firms (= downside). And my upside? (not gonna continue here since some of you would then pull me to 1000 pieces).
Peace again.
10 seconds search. Asked them instead of listening to some random guy who was pissed because he was not able to crack interviews and click with those recruiters.
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/karan-malhotra/19/25b/238
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/aleksander-baranski/0/418/70
http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=8147309&authType=NAME_SEARCH&au…
http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=58763403&authType=NAME_SEARCH&a…
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/rohan-pradhan/5/6a1/454
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/amit-jain/8/708/322
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/charlie-young/19/b21/717
http://www.linkedin.com/in/kesslercraig
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/karl-eber/12/164/b31
http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=71701737&authType=NAME_SEARCH&a…
And I stopped cause I have to finish a pitch. Otherwise I am pretty sure I would find at least 100 people in megafund, of former megafund guy, with McK and even BCG in their background... and no one here said anything about Orcel (former BCG, now a top, very top, banker) or Mitt Romney...
This is false, and absurd. McK guys go to top funds with regularity.
Risk? What fucking risk? MBB -> finance
End of story. Take the job. You won't do better within the next five years if you don't, guaranteed.
Ok guys, seems like I can never beat you :D (never used linkedin extensively, but indeed impressive profiles there)
Well I'm convinced, and I'd never gained so much insight without you all, so truely thank you for your time. And sorry for sounding like a bastard downgrading MBB with no respect, I really dont mean that since I enjoyed both of my internships and respect my colleagues and managers very much. It was like I had to find a way to express my concerns...
I think, if Blankfein doesnt come on this board tomorrow and tells me to do the Masters so I can join his firm after that, I'll go with Kinsey. Thus, this discussion can be seen as completed from my side.
Thanks and god bless you all.
You guys are feeding the troll. Please stop.
To be fair people are overhyping mck a bit much in this thread top bid still puts you in a better position for pe and much better position for hf, op is still trolling though.
This is just beyond silly. For every consultant with a Harvard MBA that gets turned down from a top-tier PE shop , there's probably 1 former IBD analyst.
Personally, I think IBD is a shit job. Would never do it, and it's worked out fine for me.
Stop under appreciating your opportunity at McK JUST BC you don't have an offer from BB. Stop glorifying IBD.
This thread is pretty awesome. Let the man get his masters! Pursue your dream! 3 years of extra schooling just so you can get mindless number crunching 80-120 hours a week experience of IBD prior to the same or worse exit opps you could have gotten through McK. DO IT. I bet you don't have the guts to break the mold!
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