How to get into banking - and WSO myths...
You come from a non-target? Sucks to be you
You have a low GPA? Sucks to be you
You want a job in banking? Sucks to be you
I've been on this website for almost 6 years, and only recently re-started reading some of the posts. Most of them are pointless, but there is the odd post that will entertain me, and make me realise how bad you guys all have it. What really drives me nuts is the posts were people just exchange a lot of useless information and "inform" everyone wrongly.
So I will start with a few myths:
I messed up this question in an interview, I'll never get the job
When I interview people I like to ask the following question: "How do you hedge your gamma?"
When I ask it, I KNOW that you will not know how to answer it. The only reason I am doing this is to see your thought process and how you re-act under pressure. End of.
Should I were a suit with two or three buttons and a sock in the side pocket?
I don't care how you dress. I really don't, and nobody else does. If you are a student I don't expect you to come in tailored. Go to primark or some other cheap place, pick up a suit and a good white shirt and a tie; go even to a used shop to get it! Make sure the suit went through the tailor at the dry cleaner so he can make it look a bit better on you, and that should make it so that you don't look like a clown. You can get dressed for less than $200 including everything. That also goes with: should i wear my expensive watch? I don't care.
The hours are so bad, you are treated like shit, etc...
True. Not a myth. Sucks to be an analyst.
I come from a non target, I have a low GPA, I come from a target etc...
There is only one thing that works, and that is networking. At my old bank (think top BB), we would receive two books of 500 CVs each, that is the number of CVs that had made it through the HR screening out of 6000 to 10000 candidacies depending on the year. I can tell you that unless a kid made a genuine effort of reaching out to us, either on campus, or in some other way; there is a very low probability we will pick you from that book of CVs...
If you are not in that book, it probably does not matter either, if I like you and I see you made an effort to reach out to me, I will ask you to come in for an interview; formal or informal.
Will extra education, courses, the CFA etc... Help me?
Unless you are a chartered CFA holder, no.
MBA, no - only if you are at a top school, it will give you access to me at networking events and that is the only thing that matters.
Excel courses? What the fuck? NO!
Banking is still an extremely rewarding job, but that depends entirely on what you do and whether you are suited for it. Everything is not the same, and if you don't make it in banking. It's ok. I have friends on food stamp smoking dope all day long and they are loving it...
One last piece of advice:
I will take a candidate that shows confidence (NOT arrogance, an arrogant prick will be escorted out of the room after 2 minutes). Determination, not why they want that job, but to show me they want to succeed in life.
Also: don't crush my fingers when you shake my hands, grab the hands not the fingers numb nuts.
A final note I work in equities, but this is valid for the future bankers as well. Trust me, my friends in M&A, DCM, ECM etc... are the same bread I am made out of: human, and they don't like pricks...
Excellent points. Wish
Excellent points. Wish everyone read this before they start networking. A little effort goes a long way.
CNBC sucks
"This financial crisis is worse than a divorce. I've lost all my money, but the wife is still here." - Client after getting blown up
your reasoning that you like
your reasoning that you like people to make the effort to reach out but you dont reward those who funnel effort into learning modelling or CFA L1 for example, doesn't correlate.
and yes, some people do not care what you dress like, but guess what, some people really do.
Good stuff.
Good stuff.
To the starving man, beans are caviar
Very nice, I like. SB
Very nice, I like.
SB incoming.
Summed up the whole notion of
Summed up the whole notion of WSO.
Death is certain; Life aint.
Thanks for the post and
Thanks for the post and information.
I just wanted to note though that when I talk to people about the exact difference between arrogance confidence, they all seem to have different answers and it seems like drawing a line in the sand at the end of the day. But based on my personal experiences, arrogance and confidence is just based on if the guy likes you in the first place and aren't that different.
73 good sir!
kc2siq: Thanks for the post
Thanks for the post and information.
I just wanted to note though that when I talk to people about the exact difference between arrogance confidence, they all seem to have different answers and it seems like drawing a line in the sand at the end of the day. But based on my personal experiences, arrogance and confidence is just based on if the guy likes you in the first place and aren't that different.
When interacting with people, you will most certainly pick up the vibe of a confident and/or arrogant person, eventhough people have a hard time making the distinction consciously.
Personally, arrogant people tend to transmit negative atmosphere to spectators.
Death is certain; Life aint.
Aldushy: kc2siq: Thanks for
Thanks for the post and information.
I just wanted to note though that when I talk to people about the exact difference between arrogance confidence, they all seem to have different answers and it seems like drawing a line in the sand at the end of the day. But based on my personal experiences, arrogance and confidence is just based on if the guy likes you in the first place and aren't that different.
When interacting with people, you will most certainly pick up the vibe of a confident and/or arrogant person, eventhough people have a hard time making the distinction consciously.
Personally, arrogant people tend to transmit negative atmosphere to spectators.
i think there's a big difference between confidence and arrogance. both may have a vibe about them that makes you notice them, but confident people don't look down on other people, and that respect shows i think.
Oreos: your reasoning that
your reasoning that you like people to make the effort to reach out but you dont reward those who funnel effort into learning modelling or CFA L1 for example, doesn't correlate.
and yes, some people do not care what you dress like, but guess what, some people really do.
"effort into learning modelling", I believe it is a useless effort, as you are going to learn all of that on the job, and pick up one year of modelling classes in two weeks of being under the pressure. If you have taken level I good for you, especially if you come from a non-business related background. I would be impressed if that was the case, true. Not if you did business as undergrad, as L1 is your 3-4 years of business undergrad in one exam...
"People care how you dress"
On that one - Please do not mislead people. What matters is who you are and that you know how to tie a tie, that's it. I don't need to see you in Gucci loafers and no need to worry about looking like a Ralph Lauren advert. If your suit does not look like it is 3 sizes too big for you, and you are not wearing clown shoes, that is all that matters. This is not an interview to become fashion director at Burberry's.
Disjoint: Oreos: your
your reasoning that you like people to make the effort to reach out but you dont reward those who funnel effort into learning modelling or CFA L1 for example, doesn't correlate.
and yes, some people do not care what you dress like, but guess what, some people really do.
"effort into learning modelling", I believe it is a useless effort, as you are going to learn all of that on the job, and pick up one year of modelling classes in two weeks of being under the pressure. If you have taken level I good for you, especially if you come from a non-business related background. I would be impressed if that was the case, true. Not if you did business as undergrad, as L1 is your 3-4 years of business undergrad in one exam...
"People care how you dress"
On that one - Please do not mislead people. What matters is who you are and that you know how to tie a tie, that's it. I don't need to see you in Gucci loafers and no need to worry about looking like a Ralph Lauren advert. If your suit does not look like it is 3 sizes too big for you, and you are not wearing clown shoes, that is all that matters. This is not an interview to become fashion director at Burberry's.
they were examples, not an exhaustive list....
i said "some" people (which is true), not all (which would have been false), ergo no misleading.
do pay attention.
Oreos: and yes, some people
and yes, some people do not care what you dress like, but guess what, some people really do.
Agree with Oreos on this one, because I'm one of those people. It's a basic fact of life that if you dress well, not only will you get more pussy, you will be paid more.
Also, OP, are you in Dallas by any chance?
"A man generally has two reasons for doing anything. One that sounds good, and the real one." - J.P. Morgan
BTbanker: Oreos: and yes,
and yes, some people do not care what you dress like, but guess what, some people really do.
Agree with Oreos on this one, because I'm one of those people.
Also, OP, are you in Dallas by any chance?
Not Dallas - but neither Soho London in marketing.
I repeat my point - it's not a fashion show, or maybe your place is BTbanker, but I didn't realise Wachovia still existed. A suit that is not 2x your size, no white socks, and other simple concepts that's all we ask of you.
kidflash: Aldushy: kc2siq
Thanks for the post and information.
I just wanted to note though that when I talk to people about the exact difference between arrogance confidence, they all seem to have different answers and it seems like drawing a line in the sand at the end of the day. But based on my personal experiences, arrogance and confidence is just based on if the guy likes you in the first place and aren't that different.
When interacting with people, you will most certainly pick up the vibe of a confident and/or arrogant person, eventhough people have a hard time making the distinction consciously.
Personally, arrogant people tend to transmit negative atmosphere to spectators.
i think there's a big difference between confidence and arrogance. both may have a vibe about them that makes you notice them, but confident people don't look down on other people, and that respect shows i think.
Thanks for your insights! That's actually a great point about not looking down on others. Still, in this case, it's some of the more obvious cases and rare cases that end up with people exchanging stories over coffee of when they met this really peculiar asshat.
But to play devil's advocate, how about someone looking down on someone for a moral reason like a father leaving their child? Or looking down on someone who doesn't work hard at all and pulls the slack around? There are people who would argue that lacking the conviction to make a judgement and to just be nice to everyone shows a lack of confidence. I mean... if you believe someone who is truly scum as an equal then where does that place your self-opinion? Hell on WSO there are plenty of people who were looking down on the average American kid when there were threads about their math skills. Taking this a step further, aren't people who say others are arrogant (along with all the negative connotations) kind of looking down on others by giving them a negative character judgement?
Of course, one can give me examples that counter the description I made to make the distinction, but it really does get murky with most people since it just isn't that clear where the line is and we don't really remember most people just the extremes. Extreme examples stand up on our minds and makes it feel like it's so obvious. However, if you begin to ask people what their opinions are on some... say rappers' confidence/arrogance, you'll definitely get varying answers.
73 good sir!
BTbanker: Also, OP, are you
Also, OP, are you in Dallas by any chance?
Haha
Disjoint: Oreos: your
your reasoning that you like people to make the effort to reach out but you dont reward those who funnel effort into learning modelling or CFA L1 for example, doesn't correlate.
and yes, some people do not care what you dress like, but guess what, some people really do.
"effort into learning modelling", I believe it is a useless effort, as you are going to learn all of that on the job, and pick up one year of modelling classes in two weeks of being under the pressure. If you have taken level I good for you, especially if you come from a non-business related background. I would be impressed if that was the case, true. Not if you did business as undergrad, as L1 is your 3-4 years of business undergrad in one exam...
OP maybe your post was meant to apply ONLY to the BB/top MM recruiting process, which is fine, just please clarify that b/c it's not the only way to get into the field. You seem to imply the only way to get into IB or high finance is through official fall/winter/whenever recruiting, either by getting your resume picked or networking your way into an interview.
There's lots of boutiques out there, and many of them DO want you to have solid technical knowledge, and maybe even pass a modeling test, because you won't be formally trained on the job like at your "top BB." This goes double for ER which doesn't have much training and often requires some kind of modeling or stock write-up case study during the interview process. Also, I've had HF guys ask me for case studies or samples of my work before. They wanted to help me, but wanted to see that I was pretty competent before they opened doors for me to the bankers and ER guys they knew.
OP, nice post. Thanks.
BTbanker: Oreos: and yes,
I'm a lover, not a fighter, but I'm also a fighter, so don't get any ideas.
My WSO Blog
SirTradesaLot: BTbanker:
Wasn't there a thread on WSO
SirTradesaLot: BTbanker:
"A man generally has two reasons for doing anything. One that sounds good, and the real one." - J.P. Morgan
There are some douchbag
I will add something to this
Oreos: SirTradesaLot: BTb
I'm a lover, not a fighter, but I'm also a fighter, so don't get any ideas.
My WSO Blog
BTbanker: SirTradesaLot:
I'm a lover, not a fighter, but I'm also a fighter, so don't get any ideas.
My WSO Blog
SirTradesaLot: Oreos: Sir
Oreos: SirTradesaLot: Ore
I'm a lover, not a fighter, but I'm also a fighter, so don't get any ideas.
My WSO Blog
Disjoint: it's not a fashion
"Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself."
Currently: PR/MarComm/IMC, semipro dancer, academiphile, Crafter of Stars
Disjoint: A suit that is not
...well, he's no use to us if Detroit is his idea of a small town!
Nice post. Thank you
It's not about the money. It's about the game between people.
Good insight from the OP. As
BTbanker: Oreos: and yes,
Disjoint: "effort into
Capitalist
Oreos: your reasoning that
Great post, so true about the
Delete
There is a difference between
Founder of GirlBankerDotCom, Author of To Become an Investment Banker
SirTradesaLot: BTbanker: