From Dentistry to Investment Banking
Ever since I could remember, I’ve wanted to become a dental surgeon. Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Statistics, and Calculus were all my strongest subjects. I was one of those kids who studied half as much as others, but still got one of the highest grades in the class. For as long as I could remember I’ve had an incredible memory that borders pictographic memory. I read a long time ago that supposedly no one has complete pictographic memory, which I agree with. Regardless, I’ve been blessed with an above average memory which has saved me throughout my school years.
Fast forward to senior year, and I’ve received admissions offers from the 9 colleges I’ve applied to. I rather keep my identity a secret, but I went to a target school, which was subsequently my number one choice. During my college years, my mind was set on dentistry. Looking back, I have no idea why. I think I eliminated being a medical doctor because I didn’t want to get a random phone call at 2:00am for an emergency operation, and I didn’t want to be a pharmacist because most of my female friends were doing that and I wanted to one up them. Optometrist? Hell no. Male nurse? Good one. Dentistry fit the mold because it allowed me to 1.) Set up my own hours, 2.) Take vacations as needed without guilt, and 3.) Make bank sitting in a chair and basically chill all day. We’re talking about the most relaxing health occupation with a respectable pay, upwards of $100K per year, easily.
I went through it all. I took all the science classes, which were a pain in the ass, and attended 7pm labs. While my friends were out partying, I was stuck studying for multiple exams that just happened to be one after another, almost every week. Being a science major was no joke, and seriously required some depressing sacrifices and late night suicidal thoughts.
Then I took the DAT (official dental exam). I studied intensively for 3 months. My goal wasn’t just to get a good score, no…I wanted to fucking destroy that test. I got a 29AA, which translates to the top 0.1% of test takers (30AA = perfect score). I was on top of the world. I received offers from basically everywhere, including full rides to some of the best dental universities in the world.
Then something incredible happened. I did not want to go. I’ve never seen my parents so mad in my entire life. They called me an idiot and basically every other blasphemous word you can think of. Even my friends were confused. “Why aren’t you going to dental school?!”…”Are you dumb??” were the most popular responses I got.
What happened? I just wasted my entire college career and threw 4 years out the drain. Why did I change my mind, when I had a 99.9% guaranteed, secure future set in stone?
These are the 5 reasons why:
1. Security = Predictability = ?
Security represented a predictable path, which I absolutely loathed. I don’t know about you, but completely understanding my future and knowing what would happen drained the adventurous vibe from it. I’m a risk taker and I thrive off the unknown. After dental school, I would undergo residency, then open up my own practice, then continue until I retire. Sure, I’d be secure and never have to worry about money, but when I weighed the pros and cons – I chose happiness and excitement, rather than the boredom from security.
2. Alpha dogs must have competition!
Dentistry is not competitive! In fact, dentistry looks like child’s game compared with banking. You can open up or even share an office space with another joint dental practice and you’re essentially set. Health is recession proof and very stable. But deep inside, I want competition. I live off of competition. If I’m competing against others to be the best then something is missing. In dentistry the only bragging rights you can have are a better office, regular clientele, and the ability to fix teeth better. What the hell? Just thinking about that made me feel very depressed. I wanted to be the best deal maker; fight for more clients based on my personality, skills, and connections; and most of all, be part of an industry that’s going for the championship. Dentistry symbolized Little League….I wanted to be part of the World Series.
3. All eyes on you
Have you ever heard of a big time dentist? That’s what I thought. I’m not saying that I want to appear on the front page of the Wall Street Journal or be interviewed on CNN or MSNBC, but the prospect that you could be recognized for what you are doing had something to do with it. I like performing on the big stage and being clutch. Michael Jordan always did better in important playoff games when it mattered because he had the clutch gene and had something to prove…that he was the best. I wanted to feel big. Not like Jay-Z big, but I wanted to feel like a prominent person and feel that I deserved it because of the hard work that it took to get there.
4. Money makes the world go round.
If you got paid $30K a year to be in investment banking, would you still do it? Probably not. Most dentists reach their salary peak at around $200-250K, depending on how good you actually are. This is also assuming that you specialize…so most won’t ever reach that type of figure. I love the fact that banking, and finance in general, truly has an unlimited potential. It’s a twisted mixture of luck, skill, and timing. It’s almost like a professional poker player who enters the World Series of Poker. Chances are he won’t win, but he’ll be at the final table 9 times out of 10. I like the thrill of gambling with deals and being part of a market that not only welcomes skilled players, but also ruthlessly smashes you if you had a bad day. All dentists make around the same type of money based on years in practice, but bankers are truly defined by their ability to win. Bring it on.
5. The Managing Director I met changed my life.
I can’t state this enough. After college, I realized that I had no investment banking internships, let alone any financial internships at all. No bulge bracket would take me in. I didn’t even bother submitting my application to Goldman Sachs, J.P. Morgan, and all the other big dogs because they would just laugh and wipe their asses with it. I chose a different route. I completely hustled by connecting with my alumni database and asking around. I got in touch with one of them and we connected. He was very hesitant because he didn’t understand why I would leave dentistry and randomly go into investment banking at such a late-stage in my life.
Well, I gave him a deal that he couldn’t refuse. I offered to work for free for one month and then he could either kick me out or keep me, no questions asked. Let me tell you, this month of unpaid internship, or slavery, was brutal. He really tested me to see how badly I wanted it. At one point, I almost broke down and called it quits. But I had to make it through, because my pride was way too inflated to beat down. After the month, he called me into his office.
He handed me a yellow sticky note.
“2000”
“What’s this?” I asked.
“Stop eating McDonald’s and also go buy yourself some new dress shirts,” he said.
Turns out, it was the payment for my month of working roughly 80 hour weeks, for one month, unpaid. Well now, it was paid!
“Oh and one more thing…welcome to the team. Keep doing what you’re doing.”
I shook his hand, said “thanks” and walked out. The type of bliss you feel from achieving true success from painstaking hard work is very hard to describe. Once you reach that plateau, you’ll understand what I’m talking about. It's a natural high that makes everything seem perfect, for a brief amount...maybe minutes, maybe hours. Simply put, I was happy beyond all measure.
Today, I’m still working harder than ever in a middle market investment firm and learning as much as I can from the MD and the rest of the firm, who gave me a chance.
I hope those of you on the borderline of a career change are as sure as I was when I made the 180 degree turn from dentistry to banking. My advice is to weigh the pros and cons...imagine who you want to be, but more importantly what type of person you want to be 10 years down the road. That should help make your decision a little easier. It’ll be the toughest decision of your life, but as one saying goes, “the hardest part is the beginning.”
amazing story. well written.
OP -- you should become an orthodontist.
My old orthodontist is one of the most balling people I've ever known. He makes his own easy schedule, goes on vacation all the time, doesn't have to deal with emergency dental work, and makes a pretty ridiculous amount of money.
Excellent read.
you are getting into finance at a very shitty time though. so it looks like you didn't do your homework on the dental life, and you've not done your homework on the finance life either.
Awesome story, SB for you
you sound like a very humble guy. keep truckin' there squirt
Great story and great read! I've had a similar 180 degree switch situation. I was on track to get my PhD in Biochemistry but decided to call it quit's at the Master's level and try breaking in to consulting. So far I'm still on the grind, and your story has re-ignited my desire to get what I want and work hard to get there.
SB for you if I had one!
This was the best post I've seen on this site in quite some time--wish I had a SB for you.
My dad was in the same boat. Top percent on his MCAT, then realized he didn't want to spend another minute studying medicine or biology. Does commercial litigation now, funny how that works.
Also, the picture for this thread is hilarious
I wonder if there is a dentistoasis.com site out there with a post called "from investment banking to dentistry"...
Thanks for sharing your story. Way to make the most of your opportunity!! Keep up the good work.
Awesome story, thanks for sharing.
Great story. I'm not surprised at all by your success though; you're clearly incredibly intelligent and hard working. That combo never goes out of style.
After reading this I think I want to go from banking --> dentistry lol
when u get laid off by UBS, let me know again whether u prefer banking to dentistry.
Lol, Besides the fact that he is clearly not at UBS, this is ironic since one of the reasons he said he switched to something like banking is because he didn't want the stability- takes away from the adventure.
Holy shit. An actual good post on WSO. Probably the best in a few months.
lol what a critic.. didnt you catch this post? http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/so-you-made-it-to-banking-now-what
lol what a critic.. didnt you catch this post? http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/so-you-made-it-to-banking-now-what[…] Yes, that one was great too. I was being melodramatic.
Thanks for sharing atmosphere. Congrats on your progress!
Its weird how closely your story mirrors mine. I did well at school - got all As in my Chemistry, Biology and Physics A Levels in the UK. Went to red brick university in England and studied a Biology degree with a view to attending Dental School in North America. I realized mid-way through my undergrad that it wasn't for me and did some soul searching which led me to investment finance. Unfortunately my lack of drive meant I slacked hard during my undergrad and came out with a mediocre GPA equivalent. I've since done a masters in Finance, am close to CFA completion and have taken a two or three stepping stone type jobs that finally helped me land a job in project finance, which I enjoy. I'm still not quite where I want to be but I feel I've come a long way and feel vindicated in my decision to have followed the dream.
Great post and I wish you the best. However, when did you make the jump? It seems like pretty bad timing and with bonuses at 20-30k, you might actually have come out ahead in dentistry.
"Dentistry is not competitive!.. ..Most dentists reach their salary peak at around $200-250K, depending on how good you actually are." Why do you think that is? Because they do not make it competitive. I know a dentist raking $400,000 per year, he is quite competitive.
Too little for you? Greed is your goal. Too far of a 'salary climb' in dentistry? Then you are not competitive.
If you were just good with science, then maybe investment banking is your path. If you have a passion for science, I urge you to turn the other way. If you are like me (left science for finance) you may be disappointed in the long run.
Years later, I returned to science, but on the VC side of the business. I still feel the urge to get in a lab, but to my focus, I am no longer qualified.
Great story, good luck in your endeavors. Keep us posted!
Such short term perspectives here. Even in this market (which will certainly improve), Ds are making 750k+, junior MDs are making 1mm+ and group heads are making 2-3mm. This will only go up. And the job is still a very interesting one.
Sounds like you've had it made your entire life.
Nice work fella.
There is someone who went from Dentisty --> M7 MBA --> BB S&T
Not going to out this person here, but you can find him / her if you know where to look.
plus women don't wanna say "i slept with a dentist" they wanna say "i just bagged a cardiologist" or something along those lines. so i think you made the right choice
The short story about the unpaid work is well written, but the post overall seems superficial and also puzzling. Dropping a stable career path to join the investment banking club, making colorful pitchbook after colorful pitchbook, so you can be rich and famous and better than others? It's refreshing how the words "analyze companies" didn't show up once in the post even in any sort of vaguely related permutation. If you just want an unpredictable competetive job where you can be rich and famous, maybe you can be a boxer instead. Would let you avoid those "brutal" 80-hour weeks. Make sure to get a good mouthguard though, as you wouldn't want to lose any teeth cuz that would just be ironic!
Absolutely loved your post. Personally, I agree with you on your first point. Knowing what the future beholds really takes away the excitement out of it, which is probably why I will never pursue certain careers, such as dentistry, medicine etc.
Well written. But I tend to agree with another poster who labelled your post as superficial. It was unnecessary to go on and on about what an ace you are (you got a hint of Prestigious Pete in you). And also, you got into investment banking because it was competitive? Everything in this world is competitive. I would of given you more credit had you did something like open your own store and figured out that evaluating businesses was what you wanted to do.
I sometimes wish finance positions didn't pay as well because it would really separate those who have a true passion for it from those are in it for the money. As in the NFL, the ones who are only in it for the money will dwindle out eventually (e.g. Jarmarcus Russell). And those who do it for the love of the game will constantly try to improve their game regardless of how tough it gets. Essentially, the reasons you switched were 1.Fame 2.Money and 3.Power. What ever happened to having a purpose in one's own life?
I'm not here to hate on you or judge you (congrats on the offer) but you just strike me as one of those kids who feels as if they deserve a powerful position because of (insert here).
Career switch not unseen.
See Alexander Dibelius: From surgeon to head of German-speaking and Eastern Europe at Goldman Sachs.
Great story. Thanks for sharing.
Love the post atmosphere as I can relate to your story. I'm glad things worked out for you in the end.
I wanted to do pharmacy (didn't want to look at peoples' eyes, use the cavitron all day, or spent so many years to become a doctor). During college, I started to have doubts as if I really wanted to be a pharmacist the rest of my life. I finally discovered what I really wanted to do after I read a few of my friend's investing books. When it was finally time for me to write my personal statement the summer after my junior year, I couldn't do it. I told my parents that I didn't want to pursue this path anymore (they damn near wanted to disown me). Stuck it out an extra year to get my finance degree (beats the hell out of a biochem degree), and it was completely worth it. The only thing I would have done differently was to really network and tapped the alumni database like you did.
+1 dawg Going from a neurobio major prepping for MCAT to grunt work in finance was an extremely uncomfortable decision to make but I knew my passion would ultimately yield higher returns. Graduating high school in 08 gave me quite a warped view on economics and finance in general so when I finally gathered the funds for college I knew I would be out there pandering for a job with a business-based degree. I gave bio my best shot. I tried to love it because I knew it was a path to financial security for me and my aging parents. Then came the reality check, I absolutely loathed sitting through lectures on protosomes and nematoda. Labs without physical dissections or DNA extractions were simply a waste of time and it was unfortunate to become part of the student class that just tries to pass a class without learning jack. I remember the day when I decided that a life in medicine (though extremely blissful) was just not for me. I knew that regardless of my profession I would always be creeping onto WSJ and forums like this for my "finance-fix". Markets, investments, capital raise, structuring a merger - shit is exciting! While I'm still uncertain about my exact path in finance, I know that there will come a day when I will appreciate the physical and mental challenge my profession will bestow upon me. I will do my best to excel until I drop.
Billy Beane joined MLB for the cash. Apparently, his biggest regret in life was not going to school instead...
Money is a huge motive for most people in life. But I don't see how that's a bad thing necessarily, it keeps the world moving. just sayin.
You do realize you could have opened multiple dentistry offices and could have earned more money. You failed to see the entrepreneurship opportunity. Sure you can make a lot of money in banking. But you've got to think about the difference of holding down a job versus owning a business. Unless you enter banking with the mindset that someday you'll own a firm, you'll be left in the dust when you decide to try to start your own firm. There are senior bankers who have worked for 20-25 years, sure they've made good money. But it ain't no CEO of GS/MS type of money. And well, chances of becoming CEO of GS/MS is heavily stacked against you.
I honestly don't know why you chose banking. I'm not even sure what type of banking you're in. I'm guessing IB since you said you basically said you worked like a dog.
If I had chosen to become a dentist, I personally, would have opened multiple offices, hired junior dentists, developed training programs, and then sold them equity shares or franchised businesses. Essentially, you wouldn't be a dentist for very long, you would be an entrepreneur.
So let me get this straight:
You tossed a guaranteed career in dental surgery - where you could been rich while setting your own hours, taken all the exotic vacations you wanted, been your own boss, healed people, and told girls that you were a "surgeon"...
...for a career full of no personal life, bone-grinding 90 hour weeks, yelling bosses, divorce, thinning hair and powerpoint administrated misery.
Way to go, bro. Follow that dream.
+1 for this is retarded.
there are no barriers to entry for IB and the macro environment is going against the securities industry.
healthcare will always be in demand, can't say that about finance.
regardless, if you are top in any field, you will find success. but, on average, dentistry is a much more stable field and it's expected value on the long run is much greater than IB.
look back at this post in 5 - 10 years and see what everyone who said this was retarded was talking about.
Awesome thread! I am in a somewhat similar situation except it took me a bit longer to realize to make the switch (put off the whole med school application, decided to work in industry a few years (which turned into 5 and going on 6 now...) realize just wasn't for me and during this time developed an interest in finance/business side of things.
Also disagree with everyone saying you should have stuck with it because in the end regardless of how much money you could have made, if you weren't happy doing it and wanted to try something else it doesn't matter. Although I have a rather secure job and make ok money (no where near as much as a dentist though) in the end, I am not happy with it and I would not forgive myself if I didn't make an effort to at least try to break in (rejection over regret is a mantra of mine).
Kudos on your networking to break in though that is awesome. Currently I am trying to the MBA path so we'll see how that goes...
Don't take this the wrong way, $20 says you're Indian.
Not to bring controversy to this thread but I wonder how much one's "race" influences the factors in considering the career switch? STEM fields generally attract high driven minorities who seek security as you mentioned, and there is a recognizable trend in finance for people of certain race/religion to be favored over others. For some it may not be such an 'easy' change due to certain circumstances.
I must say I wish I could leave finance for medicine.
I've even left for a while to take the premeds but I seem to lack your capability in the sciences at the college level. All those smart kids with AP sciences in their recent memory. I will take the middle of the road view - kudos to you for doing what you love and following your dream. Don't let anyone dissuade you. But still, I personally wish I could trade finance for healthcare - where you can actually help others and have stability to boot, as opposed to always wondering when you'll get that tap on the shoulder because the econ is bad, and so you work 80 hrs per week.
I'm married now and all I want is time with my wife and time to raise kids, but it's not possible now. Really I am looking just for a stable way to raise a family without the feast or famine of banking.
And a bit of time to spend with family. Dentistry would be a dream come true. I have a friend who is a periodontist - makes $1.5mm per year. More than I'll make in a decade in banking.
I did a google search on "Dentist vs IBanker" and came across this post. I am in my first year of dental school in NYC and I'm starting to regret my decision to pursue dentistry. Here's why 1) loans, I will owe about $350K (before interest). 2) Dental school is just as tough/time consuming as being an analyst. 3) A high paying salary is not a guarantee in dentistry either, especially with loan repayment 4) I find myself my interested in the business aspect of dentistry (ie how to run a lucrative practice) vs the science of dentistry. 5) Now that I am actually learning how to drill teeth, I find it somewhat monotonous and unsure it will bring me pleasure as a career. 6) I have friends who are analysts and they talk highly about the career. 7) making $1M salary is something I find intriguing.
That being said, I'm looking for some input on my situation since unlike the original poster, I am already in dental school.
Dentistry is a horrible profession. Looking at teeth all day? Investment banking sucks too. Doing excel models all day?
Whatever happened to good ol' project management? Babes babes babes
hey atmosphere, i was in dental school and left my dds program 2 years ago to do healthcare investment banking at a BB...you're the first person i came across who had the same thought process i did previously...i just sent you a personal message with my email address....feel free to email me to chat some more
hey atmosphere, i was in dental school and left my dds program 2 years ago to do healthcare investment banking at a BB...you're the first person i came across who had the same thought process i did previously...i just sent you a personal message with my email address....feel free to email me to chat some more
I actually went from top 5 dental school -> top tier MBA. I currently intern for a middle market and honestly, realized dental school wasn't that bad. My bank is def struggling and working 14 hour days (complete with shower and in office cot) for bottom barrel deals make Dental School seem nicer and nicer...
Awesome post and great humor throughout. Though I am surprised that with your personality, you thought about dentistry in the first place!
this guy is hungry
Atmosphere, I can empathize with your situation. At the end of the day, you lay awake at night asking yourself the question "am I doing everything that I want to do?" It doesn't matter if society perceives your profession to be "stable" or "respectable." If you judge yourself by "what you've done," then you will always try to do what you see to be the most difficult or most challenging (in this case, your career). Dying with regret is the worst. Do what you want to do and...just crush it.
Interesting story. I can empathize with your career change from dentistry - I felt the same about science after a PhD in Molecular Biology. That feeling like I'd rather shoot myself in the head than run another Western Blot or look into a microscope one more time. However, for me it was a lot easier decision to jump ship, since there was no money to be made in science. In your case I'm not sure you are guaranteed to be better off in terms of money if you think about probabilities of making it to MD in banking comparing to having your profitable practice in dentistry.
Incredible story. Thanks a ton for sharing!
from dentistry to investment banking... you never even started dental school
good move - most dentists are complete fags
As far as the "I've figured out my life" posts go this one has to be one of the most shallow and infuriating ones I've read. Only the WSO community would just look at this and on consensus say "Awesome job bro."
Banking and dentistry both sound like complete wastes of your gifts. You're at a pretty critical juncture right now so thought I'd share a few thoughts. I've got about 7 yrs on you and I worked in banking for some time. On the whole I found your post immature, boorish, and superficial (as I think GoingConcern mentioned). You come across as extremely self centered, money driven, narrowly focused and very unsure of what you really, actually want - banking has too many of you already and you're doing banking for all the wrong reasons, "Alpha Dog." I don't doubt you've made yourself believe you've made a good choice but I'm not convinced and I actually think you should reconsider your considerable options.
1) Agree that predictability in life is a recipe for disaster but why not consider a career in medical research - you might just find the cure for cancer or Alzheimers, right? Or become a plastic surgeon and start a cleft palate clinic in Morocco? You could do breast augmentations and nose jobs to pay the bills.
2) I found your analysis of career options flat out stupid - how is having to occasionally be on call to save lives worse than dealing with investment banking clients? And ruling out a profession because you want to 'one up' women? I hope that wasn't a serious comment. You seem to think a career is about showing off and getting recognition and approval from others, which is the telltale sign of the insecure macho man.
3) Don't ever, ever, ever use the word 'slavery' in this context again.
4) Leaving dentistry is not a dumb choice. Spending four years studying it, on the basis that it 'fit the mold' of a career where you can be lazy and rich, was a dumb choice. Why did it take so long to realize you wouldn't be happy sitting in a chair looking at teeth? You're too smart to have ended up there.
5) Leaving dentistry to become a banker, might be a bad choice - that remains to be seen. I know you're excited about it now, but please check back in when you've worked an 8 month M&A process and the seller and/or buyer get cold feet 2 weeks before closing. The longer you stay in banking the harder any of the possibilities in point 1 will become. I wouldn't give those opportunities up quite yet if I had your talents (which I clearly do not). If anyone asks you could always just say you took a gap year to see what investment banking was like.
6) I assume you don't want to just be a banker, because that actually is a very predictable path. Especially in M&A, the clients may change, but the BS is generally about the same - M&A is more or less commoditized at this point, and you're only as good as your next deal. I'll assume for now that at some point you want to go to the buyside or become an entrepreneur.
I really think you need more deep and introspective thought because right now frankly I'm really not totally convinced you've made the right choice, and your decision process seems pretty self-centered, money driven, and shallow. Banking certainly fits your personality much better than being a dentist - hard to imagine a bigger difference in careers - but there are also literally thousands of other things you could do with your life.
My two cents.
Good call on plastic surgery, but as for medical research, you have no idea. If you care even a bit about prestige or money, medical research is a horrible career choice. "Find the cure for cancer", right, LOL
Actually I think they almost just did bro!
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/health/a-breakthrough-against-leukemi…
Fascinating article. Very thought provoking. I wonder if this switch was really so risky at it seemed at first glance. If you can get a 29AA on the DAT, you must have a very determined work ethic. That sort of thing would be very helpful in any career, including investment banking.
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