Anyone dislike living in America

The grass is always greener on the other side.

Yeah moving to back Singapore or Shangahi in the coming months

I wouldn’t say I don’t enjoy living in America. I really do (and I’m European). But I used to spend time, when I was younger, at my Grandpa’s beachfront estate in Panama. That’s all I’ve been thinking about lately. Getting tired of my midtown NYC 1-bedroom. 

People will disagree with this post, but then slave away for years, save up all their bonuses and PTO just to go live like a regular middle-class European in Rome for a few months....

There are plenty of chill places in the US you could move to. Smaller city in the south or Midwest and people are nicer and more laid back. Can also try moving to a smaller company that’s more chill.

To make money I'd live here but agree the quality of life access to culture cuisine etc in a mid sized  European town (eg Dallas and Milan have the same population) is not even comparable. 

A wise man once said, make your money in America and leave and spend it in Europe. America is for making money. Once you have enough, you can settle in a nice climate somewhere in the Old World and live a beautiful life. If you have a wife and kids though, that may complicate things.

I'm not saying I'm leaving the U.S. anytime soon, but I agree with your last paragraph - the quality of life has definitely eroded over the last few years. 

I lived in NYC my whole life and it's becoming hard to justify the cost of living, taxes, and stress/hours required to afford to live here, when you have the increasing risk of getting robbed (and then the government refuses to lock up that criminal lol). 

The cities are dirtier, the morale and behavior of people seems to be denigrating over time, and it keeps getting more expensive.

Hilarious quote from a 25 year old 

I have shared your thoughts over my career. I try to get out and travel as much as possible. At first, this just made me want to get out more. After 10+ years of doing it, I am slowly coming around to realizing that the thrill of being in new countries does wear off. Not to say I'm completely sold on being in the US, just that the feeling you get now when you're in Austria might change with more time. 

Another consideration is that it is very difficult to make money outside of the US. Cost of living is cheaper so you can afford to live, but your retirement egg will suffer greatly compared to if you were saving in the US. Not to mention your job security is less as you have less leverage. 

My goal is to still find a way to get out of here but for more meaningful periods of time until I can semi-retire. This is something else you can consider. Continue grinding before eventually making your way into a more entrepreneurial shop. They probably don't pay nearly as well, but if you get in early and grind for 5+ years you can end up making yourself a vital component of the company's DNA and start asking for things such as working remotely a few months a year. Do this for 10 - 15 years until you can really step away from work. Basically, grind out your PE job (that I'm guessing pays well) for 2 - 3 more years while hopefully saving up some nice coin, spin over to a more entrepreneurial shop whether it's PE to Corp dev, etc. but one where you're one of the first in the door, grind with them until you're part of the DNA and the company has had success that can be attributed to your work, then start asking for more freedom (maybe convince them with lower pay demands) so you can get the best of both worlds and build up your nest egg until you can eventually either retire or find a low paying job in your location of choice while your nest egg is compounding. Or find remote work, etc knowing that you basically just need to cover cost of living since you already have your retirement mostly saved for. 

Another tip of advice I'd say is age related. You're 25 now? Wait until you're at least 28 to make a decision. Give yourself 3 more years to save and think this through. 25 is still early and even if you waited until you're 30 before finally saying this life just isn't for me and I can't wait any longer and want to go, that's still pretty damn young and you can still run up the experience in your new place. If you leave now at 25 and decide after 3 years that you're over the Austria or wherever life, you're now so far behind on trying to come bcak and compete to get back in a career here. 

I've been to 23 countries and am definitely sure that the USA is the best. Other places are nice to visit, but don't compare to the mighty mighty US of A.

Entrepreneurship is not the path to freedom. The exact opposite. It's the path to working every waking hour, low income, destitution, personal failure, anxiety, sleepless nights, divorce, and poor health. Most entrepreneurs fail. 

Much of the Earth is a nice place to live, so long as you already have plenty of money/resources, an education, family, freedom, modern conveniences, etc. So yeah, life can be better in Europe, so long as you're already a prosperous American. Tell the Italian youth about how nice Italy is as they exit the country in a mass exodus. Tell the Spanish how great life is, which is why independence movements in Spain are consistently top headlines. 

Make your money in the US and spend it elsewhere as Prof G would say

I'd say, as said above, the grass is always greener for a number of reasons, as listed above. However, I'd add:

1. You don't need to slave away at a job forever. Maybe some do, because thats what they want, but at the end of the day you have to ask yourself what its for. To have multiple vacation homes, to have the biggest house on the block? All those things don't mean much at the end of the day. Problem as detailed in #2.

2. Most people talk about money and items because it's universal, but really you want to focus on being happy. Problem is, there's no way to judge happiness. No one talks about someone in a way such as "my friend, he's very happy, always great to be around", they always talk about money "my friend, who makes a lot of money, does this...", so we all get caught in the trap of measuring ourselves against one another based on money.

3. I'd add, having your own business is probably more time than having a job. Yes the payoff is bigger, but you trade more hours for it. 

My dad was a diplomat from Nepal, my grandfather was a top government official.  My cousins run one of the biggest companies in the region (commodity house, at a lower scale, not some glencore or gunvor), but here I am, in the US, a citizen like you, hustling.  

I agree with your general premise, but I feel that this discussion is always to personable to unique life experiences and personalities, to the extent that generalizing anything is dangerous.  I saw fancy europe when my dad was stationed as an ambassador at a wealthy western european nation.  I also saw the regular working class reality for an average european.  There was a time perhaps in the 90s, back when China was just developing, India was still a complete dump, Russia had turned to full self implosion, where most of the world outside W Europe, NA, and Japan was a disaster.  The european quality of life peaked then.  Their economies today are going through some truly crazy times, and the previous status quo, back when half the worlds population didn't live any differently compared to their ancestors 400 yrs ago, is gone.  Gone for good.  

This is important because, to put it simply, you are not making money outside of the US.  I could rejoin the family biz anytime, so I have close ties to Nepal, and wouldn't mind returning.  Doesn't change the fact that its still a corrupt, crony, joker state with no objective future for the next 50 years.  There are kids there who would die to have what I have, perhaps they would want to die a little less if they knew what the reality of life in the US looked like, but make no mistake, their still going to want to die to switch spots with me.  I understand with no uncertainty, that moving myself to Brasil or Spain, isn't going to change my material standards whatsoever.  People need to understand this.  America is the best place in the world to make money, unless you're connected to the general political sphere and "insider power circuits" of another nation.  This isn't you if you don't know that society and/or weren't born into it.  No regular Nepali kid for example will EVER have, what my cousins have for the next 50 years.  Not possible.  

When describing life in america, all over WSO, reddit, whatever, people tend to miss the mark on what's missing.  From my perspective at least, nothing is missing from a infrastructure, or career point of view.  Sure china has better cities, but america is functional as it is mostly for now (though worrying signs are increasingly presenting themselves these days), and there are many opportunities, even for immigrants/outsiders.  The main downside for me is just the isolated, low community, low identity way of life.  It isn't a hugely terrible thing, but yes, harder in some cases to make deep connections on the familial level with people here.  This is easier in other nations for sure if you tick of the right boxes.  Post college you really need to make a concerted effort in building a social circle of like minded people, and the others you want to build said circle with need to reciprocate.  This isn't fun, nor enjoyable, and therefore it isn't achieved by a good many.  It needs to be done though, as your happiness is directly correlated with your communal life.  Being a lonely post modern iron jungle dwelling cosmopolitan is tiring, eventually.  

Lastly, expectations.  I understand why, but a lot of americans have an inflated view of what life is.  It's not a dream, its dreary for the majority of humans, and your fantastical dreams aren't likely to be achieved.  For most, survival is the main goal, and as difficult as that is, our brains our wired to understand and deal with it.  But once you have a comfortable living, your "problems" tend to be more nebolous.  I don't have the right social circle, hot girls don't wanna date me, I'm not vacationing in fancy spots etc.....  This FOMO based nonsense is really difficult for our brains to tackle, since you can interpret these problems differently each time you think about them, literally.  I suppose "beating the socioeconomic game" as you put it, is the only way to deal with these issues, but as you know, only so many of us can manage that.  

Not sure if I made any clear thesis here, or if I just rambled, but regardless, count your blessings and what you have, but do travel and experience the world.  My 1 yr of digital nomading is still the highlight of my life, but there's a reason why it was only one yr and why doing it for 5 would be silly.  That type of life gets tiring eventually as well.  Build a like minded community.  Trust me, if you don't like the US, it's still easier to build up systems to make it easier for yourself here, than to start over in another country that you have no cultural connection to.  I don't love it here, it's to isolated, and I like a slower paced way of life where I can meet extended family, friends, family of friends, and just chill.  When I bolt back home, that's exactly what I do, but only for 2 months or so, till I'm recharged enough to be back in the American gladiatorial pit.  

Beauty of the US is that if you get bored of a region, you can move to another to get new experiences. For example, the Northeast is very different culturally than the Southwest / Midwest. I always loved the Northeast out of all the regions and plan to remain there for the rest of my life outside of travelling recreationally.

Have a lot of relatives (20+) in Canada and ~10 relatives or so that my nuclear family is fairly close with that live in Western Europe (Spain, UK, Switzerland). In the US, my extended family has a huge presence on both coasts (~70).

Have you heard of this parable? It goes like this:

The investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked…

Inside the small boat were several large fin tuna.

The banker complimented the fisherman on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them. The fisherman replied…

“Only a little while.”

The banker then asked why he didn’t stay out longer and catch more fish? The fisherman said he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs.

The banker then asked…

“But what do you do with the rest of your time?”

The fisherman said…

“I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take a nap with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my friends, I have a full and busy life.”

The banker scoffed…

“I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat, and with the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats. Eventually, you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to a big City, then LA and eventually NYC where you will run your expanding enterprise.”

The fisherman asked…

“But, how long will this take?”

To which the banker replied…

“15-20 years.”

The fisherman thought for a moment and then asked…

“But what then?”

The banker laughed and said that’s the best part…

“When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions.”

And, once again the fisherman asked…

“Then what?”

The banker said…

“Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take naps with your wife, stroll to the village in the evening, sip wine and play your guitar with your friends!”

There are plenty of people in the US who don’t live in the cutthroat culture exemplified by this sub. Public school teachers in the Long Island suburbs make like 130k+ with a masters (which can be from any school and part time online) and are pensioned. Same with police officers. Sunce you’re on this sub, I’m assuming you went to school/are working in a super prestige-obsessed bubble, but you can totally get out of it if its really driving you crazy. Life outside the cities isn’t bad.

work in US for 10-15 years, save religiously and put it all in SP500, and then travel around the world for the rest of your life. don't get kids and have a gf that also prioritizes freedom and time together over buying status possessions.

The US is the greatest country in the world. This is coming from a Hong Kong citizen. Most of the discourse on this board focuses on following your passion and doing what you love when that is not even a concept in many other societies.

Take HK, for example. There are really only a few major industries: finance, healthcare, maybe law, government service, and real estate. If you did not choose to become a banker, doctor, go to Oxbridge law, or enter into government civil service/real estate/education, most people are screwed. Unless you are extremely lucky you would start on 30k USD and maybe get to 60k USD in 10 years at a normal "management trainee" job. In the US B4 pays 100k 2 years after grad.

Even finance is tough. Think about this scenario: 8 bulge brackets, each with an investment banking division headcount of 10-15 people. Competition from mainland Chinese escaping a sh*t-tier economy, as well as locals, from Oxbridge, Ivy League, and China, as well as HK. No M&A in HK, only ECM, so less PE opportunities and less exit ops. 1-2 spots per megafund per year. 

The US has so many opportunities. You start off in one career, you don't like it, you pivot with an MBA into almost any industry. There are major name brand global companies in every sector ranging from healthcare to pharma to finance to FMCG to manufacturing to tech to auto to aviation, and so much more. You don't like IBD, you can pivot into any number of jobs like VC, SWF, corp dev, where as that would be impossible in other countries.

Point being that everything you listed is are problems in every capitalistic society (which is the majority of countries) but despite this the US is still the best place globally.

great interview on this subject - 

I think about this a lot, and let me offer a couple of thoughts

1. no you do not need to "beat the game," you need to play a game that you want to play. in my case, I have zero desire to be atop some of the forbes/barrons/FT lists (even though I've been on the lists, just not atop) because after a certain point of comfort each additional dollar of income has diminishing utility and I'd rather spend the time that it woudl take to earn that extra on things I care about
2. you're wise to focus on eulogy virtues instead of resume virtues, because what people will remember is what a good son/father/citizen you were, not whether you did some cool B2B SaaS deal, so it's wise to always ask yourself if it's worth it ("it" meaning the next rung of the ladder). because if you can keep doing what you value and it's not taking your soul, by all means. but if the move from SVP to MD, as it would be in my case, means I can no longer train BJJ when I want, spend time with my family, chase hurricane surf whenever I want, then it's not worth it to me
3. your observation about the rural area is spot on, it's been said that you are the average of the 5 people with whom you spend the most time, this is also accurate for your environment. if you live next door to nothing but millionaires in the rat race, you feel innate pressure to keep up with this (see nassim taleb's story about john the attorney in midtown). 
4. you thinking the grass is greener is not correct in my opinion. sure, some places because of the lack of dynamism of their economy may make it easier to adopt the mindset you're striving for, but you can do it as well, you must curate your environment. much easier said than done, but it is possible. likely not possible if you live in midtown, but maybe if you live in west village or brooklyn. not possible if you live in the valley, but maybe if you skip that and shoot for santa cruz.

so answering the question, no I do not dislike living in america, and I love visiting spain, italy, portugal, france, etc., and could easily see myself living there were my family over there. but having realized that it's not so much the location, it's the environment that matters, I'll most likely be here forever because family is of the utmost importance, which is why I've curated my environment as such

Godspeed

Honestly man, this is not an America problem, this is a you problem. And I don't mean this in a harsh way.

You chose a hard play / high pay line of work. Forget Europe, there are plenty of Americans who live fulfilling lives with less. 

As an immigrant from the UK, I love living in the USA. The culture alone is so vast, every state is different even individual states have their different subcultures. The quality of life based on your preferences, the people here, I could write all days about the beauty of this country and yes it not perfect but it is close.

A lot of great comments on this post. My take, America is the best place for the average person to make money if you're decently smart. It's the best place to speak out about government freely, not that that changes anything IMO, but at least you don't get thrown into jail for it. The things that make America depressing, and if eliminated, could make this country a utopia. You can go bankrupt with the wrong diagnosis - I still find this to be insane given the wealth in this country. Unwalkable cities and urban sprawl really does a number on the quality of life that you and your children can have. Car centric landscapes really disrupt the potential for community building and that compounds peoples isolation - which I think ties into the state of American politics but I digress. The double-edged sword that is credit - sure anyone can have a nice luxury car but it's the constant pressure of debt-laden personal balance sheets and the accompanying non-stop payments that greatly diminishes people's ability to be happy in this country. Like other comments have pointed out, the U.S. isn't the worst place to be, but I definitely don't think it's the best either.  

Make your money in the US as it's one of the best places to do so, and then go spend it elsewhere. 

I admire the strength of the economy but the quality of life here isn't great. 

If you are in the top 10% (but not top 1% as life anywhere will be great) in wealth, life in America is pretty darn good all considered. Crime and crappier cities? Go to a top suburb of DC or Chicago or Boston as you settle down

Culture here / lack thereof is the one thing here that sucks far and away. Loneliness is a HUGE epidemic and there's been a huge degradation in values as we've moved away from religion as a country. Community is nonexistant if you're 3rd gen and onwards, even 2nd gen finds it tough (which is me). 1st gen immigrants find each other and generally preserve all that, but it just stops tricking down after a few generations -- look at the white people who had Italian great-grandparents for instance and emigrated to America

Better rule of law is found in Japan / Scandinavia. But you'll never fit into Japan as an outsider (not that people are bad, just culturally insular -- which is fine, not every country needs to accepts hoards of immigrants and I say that as an immigrant) and Scandinavia is not a ton better. You also don't get upward mobility in those countries though the bottom is not as low as it is in the US, depends on which tradeoff you want. 

Lots of tradeoffs ultimately on what you want. In many countries you gotta realize you just won't fit in if you immigrate to (like some of the above). Outside the US, the places where you can assimilate quickly might be Singapore / Canada / UK / Australia. And one could argue on the latter two, and Canada is a shithole. 

All said, life is good enough here there isn't a real impetus for most to leave but for others I can understand they are doing different math on what tradeoffs they want to make

I think if you lived somewhere in the rural Midwest, you would find that life is based around family and faith here too. I think the US is so large that it’s hard to boil it down to a single argument.

What other country has tons of opportunity outside of the U.S.?

Love America, or leave America.

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The US is insanely big. You can get that same lifestyle by moving to a smaller/rural state lol

Nah

I do think I can add my own perspective here as I'm an American expat working in the Netherlands. The first 2 years of my corporate career were in the states in Philadelphia and Washington DC metro, I was working as a financial analyst at a large firm. I can easily say the living and working conditions are a lot better and you get more value for your salary, at least on an analyst level in the Netherlands.

For the past year, I have been living and working in Amsterdam as a financial analyst. The work culture with the Dutch is very different from the work culture in America for a couple of reasons: it's normalized to work 40hrs per week (if you can't finish it within that window you're deemed inefficient); it's less hierarchal management structure, I can voice my opinion to my managing directors without consequence; you have to use all your vacation days per year; you get a pension plan (like an employer matched 401k contribution) that is at least10% of your base salary, you don't even need to contribute yourself you just get that extra in your monthly net paycheck; you don't have alloted sick days, if you're sick you just take the day off and fully get paid no questions asked; if you get seriously sick, it's the law that the company pays you your full salary for the year, if it rolls over to a 2nd year your company pays 70% of your salary; it's very hard to legally lay-off or fire employees if for example you're a poor performer, your employer needs to start collecting evidence for grounds of termination at least 6 months in advance. 

The salaries, at least in the Netherlands, aren't lower than market rate analyst pay in the states. For example, my net pay is the same amount as to what I was making the year prior in the states. On top of that the prices here for goods & services are a lot lower than where I was living in the Northeast. For example monthly health insurance costs are €140, it covers ~90% of my medical care and if I go to the doctor there's no such thing as a "co-pay" it's all covered already in your monthly premium. On top of that, there are a lot of free or low cost activities if you want to go to a themepark the average cost is ~€25 for the day while Six Flags in NJ is like $70 now. To go out to dinner I pay on average €25 for a glass of wine, entree, splitting a dessert while in the states it was normal to pay $50 with tax, tip included. With the result of the lower costs here, I am saving more money per month than when I was in the states. 

When Americans compare to the lifestyle of Europe, I find many are stereotyping to the likes of Spain, Italy, France. The lifestyles in these countries are quite different to their other European counterparts. I have friends that live/work in Spain and Italy, as it's weak economy it's quite hard to find work. If you are lucky to get a job, the working conditions are hard where it's normal to work 60+ hours per week, with a monthly net salary of €1,800 while the rental prices for a room in Milan for example are rising to €800-1,000, and only 10 days of PTO. A lot of the talent in Southern Europe are moving to Western/Northern Europe where the salaries are 3-4x more with at least 25 days of PTO. 

I am not saying the Netherlands is way better than America but from the perspective of an analyst that has lived and worked in both countries, it is a quite nice here.

Likely to be perceived as a "dumb American" comment, but:

I like public land, firearms, backpacking, owing a car, dirt bikes, lakes etc. 

It happens that the places with ample access to public land, lakes and shooting competitions are also more "faith and family" oriented, as you describe Austria.

If my only experience of America was limited to large costal cities (where I have lived), I'd probably hate it here. However, America has the geographical / cultural diversity of an entire continent. Moving from NYC to Utah, for example, is probably a larger jump than moving from Paris to Berlin.

Tl;dr, yeah Austria is probably better than a decaying city like Detroit or Baltimore. But Tennessee or Salt Lake City are probably closer to what you're looking for and you don't have to cross an ocean to get there.

USA is totally overrated. My relatives came to USA 40 years ago and my uncle and I discussed changes e observed:

1. The dominant Anglo/Irish/German culture is not even real culture for more distinctive people/races/tribes. If you're from Turkey, Uzbekistan, India, Arabia - would you really call American "culture" a "culture" ? FRIES FRIES FRIES. SAMMICH SAMMICH SAMMICH is not a culture. Meanwhile in Turkey: I want a kimali pide or one doner kebab and iskander sauce. 

2. The radical angry White-Guy in a pick-truck that pervades all of the Mid-West:

Met a few of them as a minority and had a few bad encounters. Scary GMC, Dodge, Buick, Chevy "Truck Guys". Who mostly are Republican, hate anyone that doesn't look like them sound like them.   Threat class: HIGH

3.  American society is nothing but a high-cost of living intense consumerism/peer pressure society with Teslas, iPads being the signs of "doing well":

You're really making Visa, Mastercard, CapitalOne, Apple richer. It feels like the USA is nothing but a consumerist trap where you're just some shmuck whose efforts fall up into the financial statements of some Wall-Street company for them and their hedge fund over lords to benefit.

4. Random violence, random-attacks, random-shootings, degradation of "family culture" vs "individualistic I DO WHAT I WANT WHEN I WANT"

5.  MASS LAYOFFS, MASS FIRINGS, LEAST unionization in developed world

I can't live in a country where people tell me when the badge at the door works when they swipe in they breathe a sign of relief.

What kind of ******* life is this ?

6. Personal take - American girls are corny pasty white girls. They don't fit my beauty complex. Good for you if you're a CHAD or BRAD, but I am not and I don't care for Tammys and Jilleans. 

I like Lebanese, Italian, Brasilian, Southern Spain, Arab, Turkish look.

They don't dress as well as European girls and lack the passion, style, grace, elegance of the Mediterranean girls who I think are the prettiest.

I'm really really really not turned on by Tammy from Rockwall Tx or Jillian who went to Abilene Christian College. Sure these are generalizations but

Courtney or Kaitlynn from New Jersey isn't really as sophisticated as Giorgia from Italy or Ilona from Greece. I'd rather take me a Gina, Giorgia, Alessandra any day over these corny pasty white gurls. Maria from Spain also turns me on. Same for Sophia from Zurich.

The only reason you'd like USA is if you get a free ride in this country like those Filipinos, other low-income country people who joint the US Army for free food, free college, minority-card jobs or you're a WASP if you got a free-ride based on your SERVED IN AFGHANISTAN, IRAQ and got a VETERANS based job in Apple making $200K.

Or if you fled an even shittier hellhole like Afghanistan, Pakistan or war-torn Middle East where there is no electricity or safeness.

Look at all the people that come. Palestinians. Iraqis. Afghans. Pakistanis. Somalians. Africans. They're not some standard . They're below standard.

I am far from a racist but I have travelled to other countries and you assess how great a country is by WHO is coming and FROM WHERE and WHAT THEY ARE ESCAPING.

There are no Singaporeans, Dutch, Norwegian, New Zealanders, Japanese, Aussies fleeing to USA. I've also met countless Japanese and Danes who left back to Europe/Japan after staying in the USA.

When we see mass migration to USA from Denmark or New Zealand or Australia then we can say with certainty that the USA is truly a hallmark of nations.