Decision Matrix for Choosing Between Offers - How did you choose?

nb84I used the same methodology, but I did it in my head...I call it decision-making haha. I think it's going to catch on.

no way, i doubt it

Gekko21I sure hope you accepted the banking offer because you are perfect for the job. I mean you haven't even started working yet and you already learned how to play with the model so that the outcome you really wanted was validated by the model.

Haha so true. They need to have a VALME function where you can just tell excel which outcome you want (sell your company) and it will manipulate everything it has to in order to get there every time.

Gekko21I sure hope you accepted the banking offer because you are perfect for the job. I mean you haven't even started working yet and you already learned how to play with the model so that the outcome you really wanted was validated by the model.

This is actually exactly what I ended up doing. It's like when you flip a coin and before you see the outcome you go "I hope it's..." that's when you know where you really wanna go.

Likelihood of taking you to the next step you want for your career. Culture is also important

At this point in your life/career the worst thing you can do is decide based on money, unless you have special situation. At this point for you, experience trumps money. Also, the differences in pay at your level at most banks will be nickels and dimes, which after taxes isn’t that big of a deal for someone under 30 years of age(unless you have a special situation).

It’s likely you’ll only be in this role for 2-3 years. This has been the case for most analysts across the street for years. With that in mind, there is nothing wrong with you using this role as a stepping stone. Therefore, I think the best approach is the reflect hard on what your near-term (5 years or less) end goal is. Do you want to do PE/HF? Is your focus to get into a top MBA program? Are you looking to exit to Corp. Dev? Would you like a place with a clear opportunity to rotate around the bank? The whole point of this is to get an understanding of the career path. Once you have that, see which opportunity is most in line with your career/life goals. If you want to go to a debt hedge fund, Lev. Fin. is a better choice than Energy coverage. If you want exit to a tech corp. dev role, TMT coverage is a better choice than Industrials coverage.

No need for a gut feeling on this decision. There is too much raw data out there to collect to have to rely on your gut. Too many LinkedIns, networking opportunities and forum posts to review, which should help you form a view on where you could end up with the options you have. Do that work and pick the group most in line with your end goal.

Lastly, you might go to banking, become a superstar and stay forever. Just saying.

For me it came down to location and fit - was not too obsessed about "prestige" as I knew that I did not want to go work for a megafund post-banking.

The interviewer said not really because you can just get promoted directly to associate. This isn't the 80's where you had to go back to b-school to return to banking.

Choose job on (1) which job will help you get to where you think you want to be (2) which job creates the most optionality (not just exit opportunities) - the fact is you're 21 years old and don't know dk as you've never worked in the real world. Your preferences / interests change but if you position yourself for a job that creates optionality, that's a great first job. That's really the major reason I recommend kids do IBD classic. Not that I think it's some earth-shattering experience. IBD classic gives you options to go to corp dev, PE, HF, whatever whereas maybe ER role gives you more direct line of sight to HF - harder to move into PE and corp dev w/o transaction experience.

If these two tie, go w/ culture. If there's absolutely no difference after that just go w/ prestige. It's such a cop out but it will likely tie back into #2 for the job that provides more flexibility / optionality.

This is a very important post. I have offers from EY and KPMG. KPMG offers me about 10k more and is in Federal Real Estate tax which I like. I liked the people at EY a tiny bit better, but it is just FSO tax and wherever I would be needed.

Which do you think has best to move up?

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Also, I have no idea (and this may be an accident) how I am in Investment Banking Forum. I actually have an offer from JP Morgan PB. But, I still feel all of this information is helpful for anyone trying to decide an offer(IB, PE, AM, or Accounting)

This has been covered a dozen times on this forum. If you want S&T for a career than go with UBS. If you want to do something with asset management than go with GS. If its an internship its better to get experience in the field you plan on going for FT recruiting. A UBS S&T internship would be looked on better by JPM S&T than the GS Asset Management internship.

Just for the record, I think Asset Management is used loosley. Is this GS private wealth management or more of a ER fund research role?

It really depends on which part of GSAM you do. which group you get the offer from? good luck

flip a coin

UBS

Depends on what the GSAM role is - that covers everything from from GSIP to PWM. Given the available information, UBS.

institutional sales for GSAM

What do you want? Do you want tech banking, MM PE, or, uh, Citi (provided it exists a year from now). That's how I'd approach it.

Thanks much! My bad on not including the information earlier.

I'm hoping to end up somewhere like Silver Lake eventually, so tech is a definite goal. The MM PE fund wouldn't deal with the industry, probably mostly industrials, but it'd be PE experience as well as a lot of modeling. Citi'll probably stay around, although I can't say in what shape, but I really like a lot of the people there and it's still a BB.

Like tooth fairies and unicorns, "promised offers" don't exist.

If they like you so much, why don't they just take you this summer?

If that truly is your line up, go with The Riverside Company. They are a good middle market shop do a sizable number of transactions (although they are pretty big).

~~~~~~~~~~~ CompBanker

I realize "promised" offers aren't guaranteed. This is just an attempt to measure them up so, regardless of whether I ever get to make the choice, I can set goals or some kind of career path.

and rndmacnt, maybe that's a good point. my resume was supposedly dropped at each, although i'm sure people say that to get college students off their backs. I was later told that next year, if I wanted it, I'd have the position. Citi doesn't really take freshmen, while Savvian, as a fairly reputable shop, is currently able to recruit a lot of talent that'll have a shot of joining full-time, unlike me. With the SA class fully saturated, there's no room. At Riverside, they're minimizing costs -I'd have to go through training, as my only experience with modeling is sneaking into MBA classes on DCFs. As I'll be learning more at a boutique IB internship this summer, they'd then be able to take me on later, whether during the school year or the summer.

But those are just stated reasons. You could be right. Even so, the three are significantly different opportunities I need advice on. You likely have more experience than I do.

edit: CompBanker, it's much appreciated.

I would take Citi FIG.

GS GH BJ has a very China-centric culture. Expect to speak Chinese almost exclusively in the office. It's dominated by locals and there are very, very few expats. If you are a Chinese native and have no qualms about this it's a fine choice. Making global pay in Beijing will allow you to enjoy a lifestyle that cannot be matched anywhere else in the world.

Conversely, Hong Kong is still a "world-city", The expat population is significantly more, and the operating language within the office is typically english. A larger variety of deal-flow is also available (China, SE Asia, etc.). Also keep in mind that FIG is a great team to be on at the moment as some of the biggest deals out of Asia are out of these FIG companies (AgBank, AIA, HSBC IPO etc.), Citi runs their China coverage out of Hong Kong so you will have great exposure to Chinese companies if you wish.

All in all, choose Hong Kong unless you have a strong preference for Beijing (e.g. family is there or something). Beijing is really quite a pigeonhole. It doesn't mean you won't enjoy a FANTASTIC lifestyle, but I mean once you're there it's pretty difficult to get out.

Citi FIG.

I don't know about Citi IBD, but their capital markets in Asia (HK and SIG) have the best infrastructure and market penetration of any BB. However if you know mandarin (I assume you are native/very fluent since you got the Beijing job), I would highly recommend you go to GS Beijing. Everyone I've talked to agrees there is going to be a lot more activity on the mainland = bigger deals, better career experience (and more money down the line). You would have to very strongly prefer HK to pick it over Beijing IBD career-wise.

GS-GH plans to double it's office size with in the next 3-years, due as mentioned above, to exploding deal flows.

With that said, moving from Hong Kong BB -> GS GH will be relatively easy especially if you know people there. Moving from GS GH in Beijing to Hong Kong will be that much harder.

I'm all for going to Asia early (when deciding between HK vs. NY), but I think you do want to leave yourself some options. Keep in mind, that yes, China is doing extremely well of late, but whether the economic model will work and is sustainable over the long-term is still unknown. Bottom line- you want to leave yourself some flexibility this early in your career.

Again, keep in mind that Citi and most other BB's (exception GS / UBS), do not have front-office operations in China, so all the China coverage / deal-flow is routed through their Hong Kong office. Working at Citi FIG in Hong Kong will give you plenty of exposure to China.

I dunno man - both are great offers. To me, if you're looking for a better life style right away I'd go with Citi in HK. HK is in many ways cooler than Beijing at the moment, the hours will probably be better (I've heard GS in Beijing is death), and presumably you'll make more as second year.

On the other hand, if you're looking to get RICH one day, and to really become a super powerful banker, I'd go with GS Beijing. GS will be insanely china-centric, but isn't that sort of what you want? I mean - China is where the growth is - and you could build some serious relationships (And guanxi is everything here) at GS Beijing. I know you say you don't like it here that much, but when was the last time you came over here and chilled? Beijing is getting cooler and new bars, clubs, malls, etc, open up every day. The hot female situation here is also completely legendary - just straight fucking legendary (beijing = shanghai > HK).

If you don't speak Chinese (but i'm almost sure you do if you got an offer from GS) or don't like Chinese culture (drinking a lot of baijiu with clients and fending of prostitutes and all that), perhaps HK is the way to go, but if you can handle that I'd go with Beijing. In China you have to be close to the Gov to have real power, and in Beijing you're right up in it. Both opportunities are sick though man - well done.

For the record, you will still have to fend off prostitutes in HK.

Citi by far, it is expanding the fastest so far and will be a very strong player.

^ are you kidding me?

I meant expansion wise and penetration of the market. Also HK is a much better experience than Beijing.

agreed, but i wouldn't say citi is even the best BB in HK. but i would agree with citi hk > gs beijing

I agree with you, sorry it's been a busy Saturday, I can see I wrote it wrong, edited now.

do you work in Asia at all boutique? If not, how would you even know CIti is expanding in HK?

I would go with GS bejing..the relationships you build there will be very valuable.

Plus, HK is quite close to bejing, just gotta hop on a plane and sleep for a couple hours to party in HK if you really wanna do a getaway

Yes I work with our boutique's HK office. And you obviously HAVEN'T if you think we are talking about "experience" as it relates to his PARTY options. Fuck it then why not work in vegas.

HK is the headquarters (much like NYC) for all of Asia's investment banking industry. Beijing is the office that is there just because you have to S china's D just to get anything done from a regulatory and compliance perspective. The experience of HK vs Beijing is vastly different (again, I don't mean PARTYING) you fool.

As far as relationships, yes if you want to build 1 year relationships with corrupt government chinese officials who will be in jail as soon as their puppet master is done with them, go to Beijing. If you're interested in actual INVESTMENT BANKING connections/networking, go to Hong Kong.

^ agreed.

^ yup.

Hong Kong has been booming because it has been the legitimate place next to the wild/rough PRC. Yes, HK is still the financial hq of the region, but as PRC gets on its feet, I expect Shanghai/Beijing/Shenzhen to become relatively more important than Hong Kong. Think about 10 years ago, 15 years ago- HK was FAR ahead of SH/BJ/SZ, but now can see the shift already.

Similar to SG being so successful partially because Jakarta and other regional cities are so awful. but, as Jakarta becomes a more stable place to base a business (whenever that happens...), Indo-focused companies are no longer going to have such propensity to base themselves in SG, raise capital in SG, etc..

I myself am actually thinking of moving myself to PRC in the coming years because i think experience there would be so important, even if i may have to join a less prestigious bank in the move (due to lack of mandarin fluency).

Though GS - GH bears the brand of Goldman Sachs, it is nothing like its presitgious U.S. big brother. A quick factmining on the web, you will find out they've been struggling to grow their mainland biz ever since its inception back in 2005-06.

Prior to this year, GS-GH really just served as an expensive research arm to look for/after GS private equity's investment opps in mainland China. Yes, they did a few transaction here n' there, but most of the deals were relatively low-profile and small in size. The recent ABC deal they were on had a sh#t load to do with their HK and US and a few ex-GS guys who also happened to be in the White House at the time. And also, recent GS PR drama didn't do well for them either before local gov. and regulators. Really, if you are looking for building up biz/gov relationship, GS-GH won't offer any of that as they are still having trouble dealing with the culture difference/shock issue.

Last but not least, the exit opps isn't great as PE shops in Beijing prefer candidates with real local and China-oriented IB deal know-hows. And GS-GH isn't the best place to be right now, though they've improved a lot since 08 n' 09. You never know one day you may see being a IB lifer isn't the best option, so hedge your bet early on.

On the plus side, you can still enjoy the brand and global pay comps (40%+ local tax rate though vs. 20% or so tax cap in HK). You will have a solid training w/o a doubt and decent deal experience. But with all that said, CITI HK is the way to go.

Just in terms of the lifestyle, Citi HK > GS Beijing any day (unless you are native Chinese) Quality of work, contacts, learning experience wise there would not be much to choose between the two (unless you are nit picking). Plus, you get to be a 2nd yr Assoc a year ealier

boutique, asia, aabb and vaguefunda and everyone else is correct. Go with Citi HK.

Is it not possible to transfer to GS HK after your analyst stint in Beijing?

also, how big is the analyst class at GS-GH?

... Yes... on the GS-GH team there is exactly 1 expat (as in non-chinese) at the junior levels. And he's an Aussie fluent in Chinese from Citi's Australia M&A team. The guy took two years off to study Chinese-full time in China.

What can white kids who do not understand the language, do not understand the culture, do not understand the industry/players, and do not have connections contribute to the China-team?... Ladies and gents, China is a different beast altogether than the Western world...

@chanmonkey, GS-GH had an intern class about 10-15 this year for IBD. They're expanding aggressively though, and are picking up laterals from Hong Kong left, right and center. GS will not put PRC (Chinese) people in Hong Kong because they're running all China deals out of Beijing now. The Beijing office is bigger than the Hong Kong office (roughly twice the size). GS HK only has mostly cantonese people left on the team.

bump

Positions are few and far between from what I've seen, but credit research may be something you may want to look into. IMO, high yield is pretty interesting in terms of investing. Not as main stream as ER.

therealslimmonkey>While I do enjoy writing and performing qualitative research, I don’t know how much I would enjoy chugging away at research reports strictly for the sake of putting out reports. ER associates, how insightful do you find your work? Do research reports feel more like a chore or are they legitimately part of your analysis process?

A lot of analysts publish quick notes, insights, newsletters, etc so they stay visible within their coverage universe. There are some analysts at my firm that I see stuff from at least once a day.

Thanks for the responses. streetwannabe, I've heard that there are few positions in ER, but doesn't credit research have even fewer? Plus it would be a hard sell for me to get a high yield gig since I'm working with investment grade loans now.

Hoping to get more responses, thanks again

While they are much harder to come across, they can be very interesting and usually (from what I've experienced), credit analysts like to find people whom have prior credit experience. Not sure how particular they are about HG vs HY, but it seems like it'd be more relevant than ER.

Yeah, high grade, investment grade same thing.

Does anybody have an answer to my question about corporate systems/protocol? One thing that I'm really curious about is if my job in particular has a lot of these annoying hurdles, or if the relatively higher up corporate jobs (i.e. ER and IBD) will have just as many

if you divide it up in terms of big picture, finance is either sell-side or buy-side. i.e the client vs client services. start there and then narrow it down

I flipped a coin.

This is where networking comes in. Networking isn't just a means to get a job. By speaking with professionals in different niches of the financial services industry, you can get a really good perspective on whether their sector (AM, IBD, PWM, Risk, CM, etc...) sounds like a good fit for you and a career path you could pursue.

I largely determined what I wanted to do by lots of reading and talking to people about their experiences.

double post sorry