Honest question - why is everyone in Banking so toxic/abrasive?
If seniors were just a little bit more understanding and took the time to help new grads in a supportive manner, the culture would improve significantly.
Unrealistic deadlines, no guidance on how to do things, belittling analysts for making minute errors at 3am.
How can we fix this?
I think it's a negative circle where people feel that they went through hell so everyone else should have to do it too. However, there are also other aspects that play into it. You are dealing with transactions that are very significant to the clients. Sure, the mistake in the footnote of page 87 won't change anything in the end but it makes you look sloppy and it affects the trust your client has for you. Moreover, everyone in banking is overworked and I am yet to meet anyone below VP who even remotely enjoys the job. As a result, everyone just wants to get their work done and leave the office ASAP. Sure, people could spend 30 minutes helping you with something but that would result in them leaving the office at 3.30 a.m. instead of 3.00 a.m. This is also why people get unreasonably pissed off when you get stuff wrong. If you get stuff wrong, that means someone else who is already overworked and sleeps 4-5 hours a night now has to spend time fixing your mistakes or double-checking your work.
Not defending the behaviour in any way, just trying to explain the possible reasons behind it. I think the solution comes down to hours and seniors actually starting to care about people. You always get this BS of "it's the nature of the industry to work 90-hour weeks with extremely tight deadlines and unreasonable client requests, you can't change it". That's total crap. Just as an example, have a look at MBB consultants who work in the PE division. They work on the same deal as you, they have the same client as you, they face the same external deadlines as you, and they face the same expectations on quality of work from the client as you. Yet, they leave at 10-11 pm every day, never work weekends and have a significantly better culture.
How can that be the case? Well, they are not as overworked as people in IB. They just do 1 project at a time as opposed to 3-5 projects at a time. People care about each other and want to further each other's development. Seniors want you to succeed and want to help you learn. Meanwhile, in IB they just see you as a resource that they should maximize output from. As such, the problem in IB boils down to lean deal teams where everyone is staffed on 3-5 projects where culture is not a priority amongst seniors. If people were able to work shorter hours, they would be able to get sufficient sleep and have a life outside of work, which would make them happier. This would also result in them being more accepting of having to stay 30 minutes extra to teach an analyst something or double-check someone's work after a mistake. Of course, you would also need culture to become a priority. I know people across pretty much all the banks and I have never heard of culture even remotely being a priority at any bank.
Of course, the downside to the suggestions above is that pay would likely decrease. If you make deal teams bigger / reduce the number of projects people are staffed on then productivity goes down. Lower productivity = lower pay. However, I think most people would be totally fine with a 30% decrease in total comp to reduce hours from 90+ hours to 50-60 hours in line with consulting and get a better culture. I know 10+ people who did internships at MBB and top BBs / EBs and had offers for both. Every single person went with MBB despite the lower salary. For most of them, culture and hours were the main reasons they went with MBB.
Good points above and will agree.
One thing you did miss in comparing with MBB is that IB is not comped at an hourly basis, it comped as a % of deal basis which kinda plays into lot of the dynamics of pay and why folks are staffed on multiple projects
I’ve found this attitude follows bankers even after they’ve left IB to go into PE, CO, Corp Dev, HF, etc. Due to this among other things are why I think generally ex bankers make the worst managers.
For context, I did the whole BB IB internship deal during UG and it wasn’t my cup of tea so I jumped straight to the buy side after I graduated from my semi target. I was able to land a pretty cushy seat at a lifeco or so I thought at the time and ended up in the only group in the firm run by ex bankers.
The difference in attitudes was radically different between my group and others in the firm. While the other juniors received guidance and mentorship as was expected in our training program my seniors decided on day 2 that it wasn’t worth their time to make an effort to train me at all (before I had even met them). Instead, they threw me straight into the fire and expected me to replicate the output of the guy that had just left who had 7 years of experience in my seat in the middle of earnings season which went exactly how you’d expect.
Once they saw that they’d need to invest any amount of time into my development they lobbied behind the scenes to get me fired instead of help me. They had the capacity to train me without it impacting their lives as they only worked 40-45 hours per week but just chose not to. I ended up getting laid off after only 4 months on the job, which was a huge slap in the face. I was the first person in and last person out of the office, worked weekends to get up the learning curve, spent $3K to get my own training, and even helped one of them move crosstown into their new place to try to extend an olive branch. All I got in return was being berated in front of the whole desk regularly, cussed out when I asked any questions, and threatened to have my bonus cut anytime I made a mistake.
Since then they hired and subsequently laid off the analyst they hired to replace me within 6 months. They’re currently on their third analyst within a 10 month period and it’s insane to me how these people don’t realize that they’re the problem or are held accountable for being shitty managers.
Sorry to hear that and very good points. When banking is your first job, you think that is the way a workplace is supposed to function. As a result, you will bring the same shitty culture with you into PE.
I also think banking is quite unique with regard to the extreme hierarchy. Anyone who is superior to you is you boss and most often the person managing you day-to-day is a senior analyst / associate with 1-5 years of experience. With that said, people become "managers" after much less experience compared to other industries. Moreover, they receive no managerial training / guidance whatsoever. At any other workplace, you would receive significant guidance, training and upskilling in managing other people.
Cause I went through it, so now you have to.
But also, why do I care about a junior who is most likely going to leave in two or three years anyway? You’re not family or someone I love, why care about someone who isn’t personally important to you and is a flight risk?
Also, if you hired more people so the work load was less, the pay goes down. Without pay, what’s the point of this grind of a job?
My guy don't be dense, this is a self fulfilling prophecy. The reason there's mass exodus's every 2-3 years is driven by the shit culture at banks and the fact people go 3 weeks straight without sunlight on a semi-regular basis lol, guarantee turnover would be dramatically less if a few easily fixable things mentioned on this thread are implemented lmao. I personally really enjoyed so many aspects of the job, but after 3 years it simply was not worth the relentless bs that came with it, a lot of which was easily preventable (getting screamed at in front of the whole floor for a 2025E EBITDA multiple not footing on page 72 of a hail mary pitch, spit flying in my face of my raging mad Directors mouth for a stale footnote I missed 4am for something assigned at 10pm that day that was also a totally fake deadline, random calls from a VP on saturday at 11pm ordering me to get my ass online and run a new pointless div. recap case that client didn't even ask for) just to name a few.
Sigh. I don’t understand why people twist my words.
He asked why there are toxic and abrasive people in finance. Why people act like jerks. Why people behave like bullies.
And so I answered. I provided the rationale for why people act like jerks. I didn’t say it was correct or valid or even logical. I simply answered why I think finance creates these personalities or attracts these personalities.
Yet people downvote or reply like you did, assuming that I am defending or justifying the toxic behavior. Your reply is in response to a comment that isn’t there. I simply gave the rationale for being toxic, and you replied as if I said the toxic culture is good.
You can see how you twisted my words right? And why I got flack for no reason? Right?
This is exactly the problem in banking. Negative circle. Be better than this.
And this, even I hate it so much, is unfortunately true. Maybe not because 'you're going to leave in two years anyway', but it's more of a thing that banks treat juniors as 'resources', not prospective leaders and long-term value-ad . If a MD has a pitch that potentially can net the firm $XXM, he is going to do everything in his power to win this mandate, and will treat you - an Analyst - as a resource to do so.
I hate it, but that's just how this industry is set up. We should all be more mindful and change into a better direction though. This can be done - look at consulting. These guys work as hard and for as demanding clients, but WLB is much better for juniors.
Aside from the excellent points made by others here, a career defined almost entirely by the pursuit of wealth does not attract good people.
Picked last in dodgeball syndrome
because either:
1) their pops put them there and they received special treatment and can't really understand what it takes to learn everything for yourself
2) many feel that they're self-made aka they sacrificed a lot, they made their paths, etc. so they expect others to be able to do the same without guidance
3) everybody is fucking stressed and emotional exhausted so they don't have the patience/interest to really sit there and see someone doing what it looks to be in their eyes a kid drawing a Sun in the corner of the page or they simply may be less empathetic due to the exhaustion = not giving a fuck about it/not caring enough
4) some are so insecure that they feel that any help/guidance they will provide will make others out compete them. Straight plain they're a-holes.
Because they were studying and working their whole lives, the social part of the equation lacks.
Because they think they are doing gods work when they are actually just making up numbers and sucking each other off dry.
Let me make it better these seniors will get on your knees to please their clients with bullshit materials than please their wife’s
Unrealistic deadlines - senior team members who either didn't start in banking and don't understand how long things take and / or overworked seniors who didnt put enough thought into how long the deliverable should actually take. The bigger issue is that flagging the real timeline to these senior bankers is often disregarded, and that is when the junio employee's mentality shifts frrom 'this senior banker you're an idiot / clueless' to 'this guy is an actual asshole who has no regard for my wellbeing'. Once that shift happens, it is unlikely the junior banker will ever want to work for that person again.
No guidance on how to do things - this one is tougher because there's always going to be a handful of strong Y1 (and most of Y2) analysts that simply know how to do things. Good leadership will walk you through new tasks and outright ask you if you've completed a task they assign it, but laziness and overworked middle mgmt (read: Assocs / VPs) often neglect this step, which ultimately leads to their own demise as junior employees spend 2-3x as much time as needed to learn something from scratch vs. leveraging a template.
Belittling Analysts - This is the easiest one; senior management is either really smart and an asshole or really stupid, insecure, and also an asshole. In the former scenario, senior mgmt expects perfection because they were the top bucket Analyst and expects comparable quality work from everyone, even if they just hit the desk. If the latter, they arent very good at their job and are super insecure about their own shitty performance, so any mistake dramatically influences how they see themselves, and thus, they scream and throw a tantrum at the least responsible person, the Analyst.
How to fix it is much harder. When I left IBD, I cited the awful people to work for and explained how they treated me vs. the other people. I outright said, I loved working for [insert 3-4 strong Associates], but I really hated working for [1 Associate who made me hate my life]. If I knew I wouldnt have to work with said associate any more, my POV would be different"
For context, I wasnt a particularly good IBD Analyst and made a lot of mistakes, but I was first in last out and earned the respect of most folks because 1. I improved rapidly and 2. I always had a good attitude and looked to help out wherever possible.
OP, I know the lateral market sucks right now, but that doesnt mean you cant try to get out. Do not take unnecessary shit from small minded, insecure little nerds who likely got picked on all throughout HS and College, and now have the smallest modicum of power and wield it around like Jeff Bezos. The most toxic people I encountered in banking were huge losers or legitimate sociopaths, and working for those people will always suck.
Teams are too lean. Everyone could go home earlier if MDs hired more analysts.
Find a job in tax if you can't handle the work.
It’s a war of attrition not intelligence, behaviors are not rewarded, only transactions.
you get promoted not because you demonstrate management ability and some mastery (like +90% most businesses), you get promoted if you close deals. This leads to MDs who have ZERO business managing people much less a whole team of people.
Hardos copy the behavior that they see work, they appropriately decide this is all that matters here, what doesn’t matter is demonstrating good soft skills.
I have seen kids come in who were relatively normal, after a few years they were zombie dickheads.
I've been reflecting on the world of IB, and it's struck me that it often revolves around monetary pursuits and an unquenchable thirst for wealth. The financial sector places tremendous emphasis on bonuses, salaries, and climbing the corporate ladder, sometimes overshadowing the connection to the real world. We've seen instances where individuals in this field get caught up in trivialities like font choices and formatting, oblivious to the more important things of life such as health, and family etc.
I encourage everyone to go visit a hospital at least 1x a month to see young and older people that are battling life-threatening illnesses... this really puts things in perspective. They are fighting for their lives and you all care about your bonuses..psh
These younger IB goons built a bubble around themselves, isolating them from the pressing issues that truly matter. Empathy sometimes appears to be in short supply in finance, with many seemingly prioritizing personal gain over contributing positively to society. While not every finance professional fits this mold, it's worth pondering whether we've struck the right balance between ambition and humanity. Success is undoubtedly important, but it's essential not to lose sight of what truly matters in the grander scheme of life.
Narcissists. Left. And. Right. Jesus.
Eveniet doloribus quo consequatur maxime quos ipsam hic. Tenetur in omnis iusto nulla magnam est. In corrupti quibusdam consequatur similique harum et voluptatem. Nobis sapiente temporibus quis et magnam. Saepe nihil adipisci est repellat molestiae est architecto.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Dolor vel nihil velit quis dolorum. Odit sit ut enim non dolores porro. Rerum dolores iste accusantium nobis saepe asperiores amet.
Voluptatem amet a id. Amet molestiae et vero quod quia debitis eius. Omnis magnam minima dolore quaerat amet sint ullam. Quasi voluptas autem animi et ratione nihil. Maxime non et et officia libero. Similique aperiam dignissimos iusto sunt.