IB exit opportunities for women that want to have kids
Hi all, I am AN2 in a bulge bracket bank in London.
I have to say that I enjoy what I do, but I'm not too fond of the hours or lack of separation between my personal life and work.
I learnt a lot and am a strong performer, but I can't say I have a life outside my job.
This experience made me realise I value the time spent with my friends and family and my spare time for travelling and developing my hobbies and interests. I used to think I could have both, but now it looks impossible.
I used to dream about PE MF for a long time, but REALISTICALLY the work-life balance doesn't look MUCH better.
For example, maybe 60 hours a week would allow having more free time for friends and hobbies. However, I struggle to imagine how you then have a kid and do 60 hours. TBH I can't even imagine how you do 40 hours and have a child AS A WOMAN. I think it's fair to have a nanny to help, but I don't like the idea that a stranger raises my child; I still would like to be a very active parent. At the same time like intense finance, so if I slow down too much, I quickly get bored. I hardly see myself in a corporate role but maybe I am wrong.
I would like to know what exit opportunities would allow me to be in finance, have a family and time to enjoy it and optimise the compensation.
I want to start a family in a couple of years, so I don't have time to make it to the top of the corporate ladder. I don't mind intense hours when needed, but it can't happen most of the time.
I'm sure many of you have been in or with someone in the same situation. Aside from the exit opportunities or good companies to recommend, it would be much appreciated if you have any advice on how to deal with women in finance with kids situation.
Comments (91)
Entrepreneurship could be an option. Can maintain intensity but with lower and more flexible hours.
Unless you're talking about OnlyFans or like doing some Etsy side hustle, this is terrible advice. Private consulting maybe, but unless OP has some niche skills or sector expertise that's not really happening as an AN2.
You don't need to be a niche domain expert to start something.
Marriage
Marry rich
Very creative answers guys
I've seen very successful women M&A and client coverage bankers with several kids and a rich family life so it absolutely can be done. That said, these individuals are some of the most disciplined and organized people I know.
An obvious call if you enjoy finance, like banking but want to a more normalized lifestyle is capital markets. The nature of ECM and DCM work is jnherently more structured and once you get it jnto it, it's a lot of fun and market interactive. I'd lean more towards syndicate myself but that's a personal choice.
Other options that pay well but have a more structured lifestyle
- credit funds (both corporate and infrastructure)
- asset management (both hf and long only)
- investor relations
Just caveats - Super competitive to get a LO Analyst seat, esp at a top fund (HF is a dime a dozen for L/S) and you have to be hot to get the 3rd one
too true lmao
How much better are the hours in capital markets?
Senior people are nicer to women. No way you are half as nice to us older dudes.
Investor relations 1000%. Occasional long hours, but you will know when they are - otherwise 40h or less and you're free to leave at 2 or 3pm if you need to grab kids
High pay too.
yeah people really undersell how much investor relations comp is
What is comp progression like?
Nonsense.
I'm sorry to burst the bubble but I would hate for naive ibankers to jump on the IR bandwagon hoping for greener pastures just to be deeply disappointed in the lifestyle, and find that they aren't doing terribly interesting work to boot.
Context: I worked in both the deal side (REPE and growth capital) and IR for multiple PE funds, as well as a year as head of Asia cap intro for a bulge bracket.
Generally IR takes as much time as deal work. IR is certainly less intellectually strenuous compared to deal work. After all, it's more about outreach and parroting the party line. But IR is a logistics and sales-management challenge which is by its nature incredibly time consuming.
Of course there is firm-to-firm variance. And it is possible that if you're doing IR for a well-established or name-brand PE fund or hedge fund then things are easier. It also helps if you have a decent-sized IR team, can leverage placement agents or cap intro. But that's a somewhat rare situation.
The vast majority of IR professionals are either working at a megafunds under very demanding AUM expectations, or working for emerging managers with ambition. And if you're at an EM you really have to work to get money raised. You spend a lot of time in outreach, following up, and trying to close. You're just one of literally tens of thousands of fund managers trying to get noticed. You will be researching LP preferences in Preqin and Pitchbook, trying to curry favor from other IR people and placement agents so that you can target, outreaching, scheduling, etc. And don't forget, IR people are flying around to go to conferences, setting up meetings in 30 min increments and then doing an inordinate amount of follow up.
40 hour weeks or less? Please. No one is getting off work at 3pm. This is still finance.
Would you say people at an LP usually have a more chill lifestyle?
No offense dude, but I recognize your name only because you have made 15 posts shitting on IR on this site and your experience is not the sole reality. Sorry you don't like IR but it is a solid career to stay in finance and make decent money without working 80 hour weeks and weekends. Obviously no job is perfect and this girl should do this type of diligence before committing to it.
I have multiple friends and a GF working in MF IR and their lifestyle is excellent - and yes, D/MD leaving at 3pm to get the kids and logging on for a few hours later is a very common occurrence. Obviously MF makes it a little easier to get clients. LMM/MM IR, probably not the best spot to be in.
Investor relations, although I'm going to IB ina. Year, currently I am interning at a media company doing investor relations, one of the higher up took like 4 months maternal leave and is able to leave during the day to
Pick up the child and work from
Home and hours arent that intense, hours only get intense during earnings week, so a week or two, or a big m&a announcement
I think private investor relations (fundraising) would be more appropriate than public for this scenario but still a good call.
Asset management is the answer here if you have any interest in investing
This post shows a lot of immaturity. Typical day of a 3 year old who's parents have busy lives in their mid-30s.
Goes to daycare/pre-school: 8am-4pm. Snack: 4-4:30pm, Swimming/Baseball/Soccer: 4:30-6pm, Dinner: 6pm-7pm. Night-time routine: 7-8:30pm and then sleep. Give or take an hour here or there. Maybe no snack and just dinner before evening activities. So the child is busy for 8-10 hours a day typically anyways. Replace "daycare" with a "daytime nanny" and then some form of morning routine.
The key for a senior finance professional to navigate the above schedule with 50-60 hour work weeks is a supportive spouse and switching shifts for routines each day. Hiring a part-time nanny to help at times is also far "someone else raising my child".
If you want to have children before your 30s, very soon after meeting/marrying your spouse, being a stay at home parent and so on that is fine. But the belief that no one in an MD role has a happy family life is a bit laughable. Similar schedules go for doctors/dentists and heck even artists at times.
Your posts reads pretty defensive. OP never said "no one in an MD role has a happy family life". She said she would like to be an active parent, which presumably means wanting to take their kids to school, pick them up after school, go with them to swimming/baseball/soccer, etc. It's just a different personal preference. No doubt your scenario works for many people, but I think the OP is just looking for something different.
The above schedule has everything you just explained.
OP wrote "TBH I can't even imagine how you do 40 hours and have a child AS A WOMAN. I think it's fair to have a nanny to help, but I don't like the idea that a stranger raises my child; I still would like to be a very active parent.".
That schedule the child is busy 40 hours a week so go ahead and "imagine". You can call it being defensive but I call it having experience and maturity for how things really work. Guessing you are also in your 20s since again you seem one cannot be an active parent with that schedule.
The key assumption here is that you have a supportive spouse. Often, the wife is expected to be that supportive spouse, i.e. works less than the husband and sacrifices her career for the benefit of her husband's career and the children's wellbeing.
I'm not trying to attack you, just pointing out some ingrained assumptions that our culture might hold.
OP's post shows immaturity? She also never said anyone in an MD role doesn't have a happy family life. Everyone is different, and if you find that the schedule you laid out above works for you, great. But pretty crazy how feminism today doesn't support a women who wants to be involved in their childrens' lives considerably more then the schedule you outlined above. Especially on WSO, where odds are a couple together have plenty of skills/opportunities to either both take less demanding jobs or one be the main breadwinner.
You have never been a working mother, obviously. I second corporate or commercial banking or investor relations. Also, if you consider part-time work, a stint in a government Treasury office/central bank might be worth considering.
These hours are completely ridiculous. Seems like a sweatshop pre-school. Even in high school I only had to put in 7 hour days. When the child is younger there's often early dismissal / short days which brings weekly commitment down to low 30s. I did do some ECs but these were at most 1-2 days a week for an hour. Expecting a 3 year old to be productive for 50 hours a week is insane.
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Literally all of my (male) MDs admit they have no real relationship with most of their children, especially those born before they were MD.
We had a female MD who gave a talk in WLB/parenting and she had 2 pieces of advice 1) have kids after you make MD 2) Have a 24 hour live-in nanny
Why even have kids if you'll be a shitty parent. Most senior dudes are real betas at home or terrible fathers. Some good people too and they also happen to be the chill ones to work for.
Asset management has some great hours. Caveat, hard to break in but once you're in, you're gucci. For example, the investment arm of an insurance company will pay decently and give you good work life balance. The only exception is Athene; Athene is owned by Apollo and your hours will leave you childless, single, and eaten alive by your cats.
I disagree with the common answer of "corporate development". I've met way too many people that work awful hours in corp development and it makes me wonder why not stay in banking and earn at least 3 times more in compensation.
I can vouch for the investment arm of an insurance company. I work in a team like this at a major UK life insurer. Most of my colleagues are senior investment professionals with kids. They are paid well and have very flexible hours. I've seen people take time off during the day to drop children at school, medical visits etc. I realised why they decided to settle in this team. I think it's also about sharing responsibilities between the two parents.
This is my first job so I wish it were faster similar to my HF internship but it's a great buyside role.
These are basically FoF roles right? You work across primary/secondary/co-invest
Hard agree on the corp dev comment. I know so many people who get absolutely crushed for limited comp and career advancement. Really depends on where you work though, some people have interesting gigs with decent pay (but much below IB).
A few observations made in London:
- child's schedule is way less predictable than suggested upthread. NHS guidance is that children have on average 8 colds a year. Any illness will throw out any routine, especially sleep schedules. And no nursery if the child is ill.
- people make it work with either one very flexible parent, very involved grandparents or nannies. Couples that both work full hours and travel have a live in nanny.
- IR in PE can require a lot of travelling. Depends on seniority but people I spoke to travel 25-50% of the time, at principal level. Increases with seniority. The day and week is client driven, you need to be able to be flexible and react
I think it is very respectable, and based on colleagues and friends, if you want to stay in banking, go to corporate banking, way easier hours, very good perks, good money but less upside than IB.
If you dont like banking, corporate development in a large company, but you need to research well the culture, as sometimes these roles are tough if the head of the group was an ex banker that still wants to run things as an M&A group.
Second asset management, investor relations as good examples. For asset management, a long-only job or a job in investments at an insurance company etc. are great options. I would also try a boutique shop, more likely to offer the flexibility you need.
Also high finance outside of NYC (Midwest, South etc.) is more likely to offer cultures that fit this lifestyle and obviously cost of living/lifestyle would be more supportive of raising a family. Comp goes much further obviously given cost of living and you can live in suburbs 20 minutes from downtown vs. commuting an hour from CT, NJ, Long Island. Plus your bulge IB experience would stand out for a lot of these roles. Asset management and IR are much more spread outside of NYC than banking. Tons of asset managers big and boutique located outside of NYC and obviously same with public IR. I am biased because I live outside NYC but this is the lifestyle I want when I eventually find the right lady and I'll happily take my 50 hour weeks in asset management and buy a 3k sq. ft house in a nice suburb 20 min from downtown. Hard to beat it.
What no one seems to be addressing is the fact that as you move up you're not really doing 60+ hour weeks anymore, certainly not in the butt in seat capacity. I know plenty of people on the buyside and sellside that are 15+ years older than the OP and they have kids and are not working that many hours on a consistent basis. Once you get to a certain level you're not really creating deliverables. Many friends, even those in IB, joke they no longer know how to use excel and powerpoint. You might be reviewing docs and taking calls more frequently but its not the same dynamic as in the analyst/associate or even vp years.
In terms of paths, as stated above, IR, long only, credit, or even corpdev type roles are all good paths. To a degree its less about the specific job and more about the company and culture. There are even some verticals in IB that don't require tons of hours once senior enough.
Which verticals in IB do you think require the least hours once senior enough?
As someone who had a nanny while growing up. They did not "raise me" they were just there. I am much happier that I now go about life with the expectation that women are super driven and successful (like my mum) than expecting them to just look after the every whim of a child. I have three siblings and they are all great in large part because they expect women to be equal to them in their intellectual pursuits.
My fiancé is building her own consulting practice. Will probably be able to make $200k - $250k on 20 - 30 hours a week and then ramp down to 5 hours - 10 hours a week once we have kids or stop working if she doesn't feel like it
You could do the same? You need to find a GREAT niche though and I guess entrepreneurship isn't for everyone. Although I would call a consulting practice with 1 or 2 employees more of a small business.
Should add it was only easy for her to get clients since I helped her build her offering to cater to my network and then lined up clients lol. She also practiced on a few of our cos first
Fantastic spousal support allowing her home consulting biz to take on a few small engagements with your companies to build up credibility
I summered at citi and one of the female MDs during summer orientation was bragging about how she gave birth and was back in the office the same day
the worst part is she genuinely thought we'd be impressed by her commitment…
obv culture has (thankfully) changed, but just know it takes a certain type of psycho to be in this industry long term
She was probably exaggerating...but there are crazy ass people out there so she probably had limited down time, a couple of days. I really don't think the hospital wouldn't even let you leave that quick, so I find that extremely hard to believe. There are so many tests that need to be run on both the baby and the mom and they want to monitor the baby for like 24-36 hours. Maybe after a few days sure, which in itself would be nuts, but I call bullshit on her. Also, like you said what a weird flex. Its like, thanks ma'am...I will be sure to know to not join your psycho ass team.
Similar vein, I have a friend in PE that had a female partner take only a few days off for her kid...therefore when he had his he was back to work after a long weekend. Needless to say his wife was pissed.
Great point about the hospital
Truly, stop commenting on things you know nothing about. Many insurance companies only pay for 24 hours after normal delivery. Really good ones pay for 48 hours post birth. Women go home SAME DAY quite often, sadly. A cesarean delivery can get you up to 4 nights if you are really lucky, have complications, or are over 35. Really, it doesn't help to speculate about things you have no first hand knowledge of.
So she was lying about being back in the office?
This is the most Citi comment I've ever heard. of course she thought it was appropriate and not embarassing to flex about that. +1.
Thank you all for posting different options and ideas. I think the best approach is to research all of them and keep in mind that some factors may be company specific. So again, research!
My vision of being an active parent is not about picking up kids; I'm ok with a nanny doing that. But I would enjoy spending quality time together, playing, doing homework, reading a fairy tale... I don't want to say no to my kid because I have to please some stupid client. (I can do it a few times when needed but not as a rule). I need some flexibility to do my work.
Of course, I see mothers in IB and female MDs(very few), so having kids is possible. Irrespective of gender MDs (but also VPs and above) work less in terms of hours etc, but the expectation is still to be 100% available. MDs spend the whole day on calls. They still have issues and often cancel plans or don't even plan holidays. I can't even imagine making time to pick up the kids. Yes, they have kids, but I don't think they spend a lot of time together, and often I hear that their kids are grown up by nannies. I had never heard about great IB mothers. I only hear about workaholic women with kids like the one from citi.
I don't enjoy being a buy-side client's slave. When I started this job, I knew I wanted to do it to learn the skills and move elsewhere.
I used to think switching to PE would be a solution, but after speaking to more people, I realised it might be ONLY slightly better than banking. I heard about principals/partners on calls daily and doing their work by night, so I don't know how I could enjoy having kids. Maybe smaller PE can still offer a good balance? Happy to hear about any good experiences.
Now my dilemma is to find a job where I can use the skills I learnt and have my personal life the way that makes me happy.
I'm not expecting it to be easy, and I don't know how parenting will be. My ideas about IB/PE parents may also be incorrect, so I'm sorry for my ignorance. I'm here to hear different opinions.
I'm just trying to find my way, and I hope this can be useful to anyone else in the same situation.
Some jobs aren't always compatible with certain desired lifestyles. This is one of them.
PE Co-investments is a good option. 40 hours per week and same pay and progression as IB.
Highly variable based on the shop you're at, sometimes the volume and tight timelines to turnaround an answer can be a total bitch.
I'd like to tackle this from a different angle.
Not woman, but wife and I have two kids and both have (had? She's on mat leave) somewhat demanding roles. I'd say above all pick your partner carefully. I was ok with using flex hours after kids (having a supportive manager helps), so we coordinate on what are must-dos and nice-to-haves at our respective roles. We also hop on work after kids are asleep, which helps us catch up. Talk to your staffer, manage their expectations, they might be more understanding than you think.
Also, look at transitioning to different groups. CB had a flatter growth trajectory vs IB but probably is more sustainable in the long run, kids or no kids. When most of my class called it quits, I hopped over instead and have so far enjoyed being rated highly every year while having more reasonable hours.
Do you mind sharing what exactly are your hours in CB? And how did they change from Associate -> VP?
Private Wealth Management
Portfolio Management for REPE funds is more often than not a low-hour well paid job
People are still recommending FO roles. Truth be told the jobs with the best lifestyle are the back office jobs where people treat the job as a job and go home. Think financial reporting, vanilla FP&A, forecasting, business analyst, etc. I know some people who work in these and they work 20 hours a week except for month close which is 40 hours. If you want FO/MO I would recommend to network and look for a team that is female dominated. I interned in one and it was basically the norm for the women to go pickup/drop off kids so the group hours were essentially later in the morning until early afternoon and then late nights (after kids went to sleep). From what I've heard from others this is actually more standard than you'd realize (and I assume applies to IR as well).
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I grew up with a single father and he was a HF PM. He seemed to always be able to make time for me for everything - school, sport games, hosting my friends. Don't think my dad is super special or organised or whatever - just found a gig and was senior enough by then to be able to manage his schedule easily. So I guess there's that…
Surprised no one has said it yet but corp finance at a tech company is chill and pays well or move to the client side in corp dev. It's a pretty popular move at least here in the states where corp dev came a solid $250 - $300K+ as a senior manager or director and you're doing 40 hours max
Tech
Have you considered consulting instead? I'm obviously biased but I think the work is at least as intellectually engaging, if not more, so that's a wash. Meanwhile, you get better hours, a generally more flexible work schedule, a work environment that is probably going to be more evenly balanced between men & women (and consequently more understanding of motherhood), and enough time off after giving birth to recover and bond with your child.
Main downside is that you get paid less, but hey it's not like consultants - especially the ones who make MD/Partner - are hurting for cash either.
Have worked with plenty of women with kids in Client Service, Investor Relations and Institutional Sales. This is not to say it's easy, but it's certainly more manageable than working in a deal-oriented role. You can make very good money in these roles if you find the right seat and develop the right network/skill-set (Insto Sales is particularly lucrative if you can pull it off).
onlyfans
It's not exactly finance, but I think it could worthwhile for you to look into strategy roles at F500 firms. These roles typically require 2-3 YoE in IB or management consulting, so I think it's reasonable to think that the work will be at least somewhat similar to what you're doing now and definitely engaging. For example, netflix currently has a listing for a film content and strategy associate which sounds like a dream job, at least to me.
Yep! As a VP with kids, this is definitely a potential future exit for me. I'd love to see them
Almost half of the women in senior positions in investment banking have no children, according to new research seen by The Observer, ...
The stat might still hold, and I wouldn't be shocked if it did, but it is based on a 2008 informal study of 34 senior IB women across London. Should be taken with a grain of salt.
Senior IR staff at large financial institutions get paid so much better than bankers and work fewer hours.
Stay at home mom managing your husband finances
Hello! We have a baby at home and I work in PE, my partner is a software engineer, so this my real life experience. I think people above have provided very good advice, but let me summarize my own perspectives here.
#1 advice: the partner
Sheryl Sandberg was insanely right when she said the biggest decision regarding your career is who you choose to partner up with. My partner has been pestering me for kids since 2016 and is the happiest in years as a parent. The software engineering gig is a more relaxed job and allows for more flexibility, so I do less of the childcare with the slack taken up by my partner (who regularly works max 40h a week).
I am not sure how to advise you if both of you have high flying jobs with 24/7 availability needs - I've seen it done (e.g. Catherine Petty at CVC is a great role model), but this usually means 1x person from the couple takes the foot off the pedal at least temporarily (3-5 years usually) or you rely on staff 24/7 (live in nanny / au pair).
#2 is to get a nanny
We were deciding between daycare and nanny for a while but we're happy to have found an awesome one. Daycares have 2 major downsides / 1 of those debatable. The biggest issue is that they won't accept the kid if they're ill, which is a problem as for the past 2 months our baby has been ill 2-3x, each time 2-3 days. Someone needs to be home with the kid while they're ill, so that's a big problem.
The second issue is more of a debatable point, but just as I was preparing to sign the docs for daycare, I read research stating that these environments are loud/end up being stressful for very young children towards the end of the day, which has the potential to lead to behavioural issues later in life. To be honest this isn't something I'd swear by, but it scared me enough not to send the kid to daycare quite yet (he'll be in a few hours a day pretty soon for socialization though).
Our schedule is basically:
The obvious downside of having a nanny is the cost, but hopefully with the right job, you don't need to worry too much about that.
It sounds like you are worried about spending quality time with your future kid and not having it raised by a non-parent. I spend time with my kid every day 7 am to 8:30 am per the schedule above, and we also do as much as we can together over the weekends. Kid prefers us vs. nanny way more, even 6+ months in. We cuddle him more, do as much as we can of his favorite stuff when we're together while trying to not spoil him too much. It's just a different type of relationship that is way, way closer.
All up to you
Let me tell you, before I had my kid, everyone was like: "Oh you'll see, you'll want to quit - you'll want to spend all your time with the kid." I always thought this was silly and 200% did not sound like me. And I was right! I am still driven, this is still the career I enjoy as much as possible. If you know yourself and what you want, you'll make the right decisions that fit the lifestyle you want.
In terms of jobs that are still in finance but a bit easier hours, I'll echo what others have said: investor relations (with the caveat of travel on occasion; but will be less of an issue for larger funds where you can have roles where you travel less), fund of funds (avoid co-invest / secondaries teams and focus on fund investments; former 2 are deal-driven so can spike, for the latter the workload is well-telegraphed) either as part of a pension fund (e.g. CPPIB is very prestigious), regular FOF or SWFs. Good luck!
Wholesales at Blackstone or Carlyle, Fintech or Cybersecurity SAAS sales, or S&T.
I work in IR for a public company. More analytical work than relationship building but prob depends on size of company. Obviously IR for PE would be more relationship building, more dreaded logistics work. I make $330k in a low cost of living city with possibility for promotion to $500k. I work 30-40hrs except during earnings when it jumps to 60hrs for about 3 weeks every 3 months. Travel 20%. Plenty of women with banking experience in these roles. Without sell-side equity research and buy-side experience, you won't be super effective but the best part is no one will know whether you are effective or not.
What level are you and how has your comp progressed over time?
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