Is recruiting rigged against non DEI semi targets ? (Objective view)
Now that Im starting a graduate, I owe all desperate semi target non DEI kids an explanation. Here is what I learnt after going through multiple recruiting rounds at target and non target schools. This is purely objective (it is easy to say I am hating if you feel targeted instead of fixing the system):
- Target kid: This where HR get their "best" candidates to make sure the bank doesn’t collapse in 5 years time
Non-Target:
- IF you are DEI: HR heaven. Recruiters only screen DEI/female candidates as to fulfill the non/semi target schools quotas as well as DEI quota. Two birds with one stone.
- IF you are white male/asian: you are doomed. Being in a semi target makes recruiting 1000× harder even if you have the same level as target kids.
I find this extremely unjust for low-income students who, due to their family situation, couldn’t attend a target school (fewer resources or simply less informed, especially among blue-collar families). As a result, DEI initiatives often benefit Black/female/minority candidates from wealthy households instead of those who had to work through high school and college to pay for tuition.
It is quite a novel concept to think that banks could be committing reverse racism!? Whaaaattt???
All this whining about black candidates would make me think finance is filled with black people! I haven't really met many in my time though. Where are they hiding?
trying to break in man
I'm being facetious. I'm black and I'm over this refrain from people like OP that I've been hearing for going on 15 years now that DEI/affirmative action/whatever you wanna call it is taking away jobs from white people in finance.
It's an excuse for underqualified people to rationalize their failures.
"oh non-target DEIs have it easy" give me a break.
Wym they all work at BBH
Maybe the already small pool would be even smaller without DEI?
i agree, i'm not opposed to DEI, but the way it is currently implemented lacks a lot of nuance. i think it should be based on parental income. lower income black prospects have had significantly more barriers to entry than higher income black prospects (same goes for a white person or asian or whatever). this way you eliminate considerations of race and look at applicants in a more nuanced manner (how has x person performed within the bounds of their social class). seems like a very simple idea - not sure why it isn't more mainstream.
also grouping all asians together is very strange - there is a lot of variance in median income between different ethnic backgrounds (like indian vs camboadian).
If they actually cared they would offer things like scholarships for less privileged talent or similar. Anyways, just saying "look we have 50% women now, we absolutely care" wont change the corporate world in any way.
Whack comment... DEI is implemented to increase diversity. Just because a black kid grew up rich, went to a boarding school, then an Ivy doesn't change the fact that they're still vastly underrepresented in IB/high finance. Do you think that there exists no incremental culture-add from a black person in Goldman TMT just because they went to Deerfield and Harvard?? Do you think that they don't still get pulled over by police and profiled?? When a kid from a less fortunate background gets in, ya'll complain and call them stupid. Then they get bad reviews because they don't "assimilate to the group's culture" if they're lower class–if they're upper class then they don't really count as diverse lmfao. So fucking stupid there's no pleasing you guys
It’s undoubtedly true. At my MBA, there were separate events / career fairs for minority candidates, which were the only events that some companies attended (ie, no recruiting outside that). McKinsey had filled up their diversity recruiting bucket early, then decided to pull back on total recruiting numbers, but since they already filled up the diversity bucket based on normal recruiting numbers there were no spots left. Lastly there were specific fellowships only available to diversity candidates. Usually they would say “please apply if you’re a woman, black, etc etc.” A quicker way would have been “if you’re a straight white/asian male, forget about it.” Those are more blatant, in the open examples, but I’m sure much worse happens behind the scenes
Lol welcome to the other side bro. All of the zoomers and reddit kiddies on here will say that this type of discrimination is imaginary, but those who have been on the other side of the hiring process have 100% seen some shit.
I don’t usually click into the DEI threads on here, but I’m actually glad I did this time. I’ve got some wild stories from being involved in interviews and candidate selection under DEI initiatives — some of it honestly felt borderline illegal.
I mean yea just like everything else in the world, it’s rigged against poor people and is easier for rich people. There’s just no incentive for banks to change it because people aren’t tracking things like % of intern class on Pell grants for DEI metrics.
It was pretty bad at my MBA this year (M7). Top spots went pretty exclusively to DEI folks (your usual suspects- white & Asian beckies, POC, LGBTQ, vets, etc). Sure, there were some outliers but honestly it was more luck than brains
LOL is this CBS
Could be Wharton also. At my summer program, everyone that was from Wharton was a vet or female
Its never been about equality.
Its about showing off to investors how progressive they are as a firm. They dont want actual diversity.
If they would, they wouldnt start by lowering entry barriers for DEI / women. They would start to create opportunities for disadvantaged candidates / talent. Maybe establish a scholarship program for people facing financial hardships, info sessions at schools in less privileged districts / areas or change something general to make the career path more appealing to women.
Who would have thought, that a career taking all your lifetime and energy while having a very rough culture and relentless pressure isnt the goal of every young women?
100%. I remember when I was helping with recruitment at my alma mater the HR team had minimum quotas on females and DEI. Involved passing on candidates who were more qualified (this was just a resume dump, so spare me the interview angle) in favor of filling specific minimum quotas. This included passing on a 4.0 finance major for a 3.5 female English major.
Let's do the full math. What % of seats are taken up by DEI? Because that's the highest % of seats that were taken away from you.
Let's say its 25% (women plus URM candidates). Is that fair or right, no. But they still did leave 75% of the seats remaining for you. If you couldn't grab one, and were well qualified, then you need to blame the fact that there's just way too many people applying for way too few seats, forcing the banks to make their lives easier by going to the tried & true targets.
More like 50-60% going to DEI
NY intern 2025 class at my bank
20 women
28 men
-4 obvious diverse men, rest is ambiguous so lets say no lgbt and 4 only
50% spots gone
Spring programs in the UK are between 80-100% DEI (some programs are exclusively Black/Women)
Wrong! You failed to secure one because your interviewing skill set is poor. Those who get them, convert and end up with full time position - hence qualified.
.
if the field favors DEI and targets, again, why would you even start by aiming for it. Information is widely available and the DEI injustice and competition is notorious in IB. If you wanted to challenge yourself, you did it, you are exactly where you wanted to be: With the odds against you.
so for all those that complain about how rigged is the system/how retarded is HR (I fully agree), what you gonna do about it? waste precious time proving it on X/LinkedIn, or are you gonna close your laptop, go outside, and do something useful for your career?
If you want to be successful, focusing on things that make you feel like a victim/you have no power to change is an extremely bad start and also a bad habit.
Isn't DEI dying, though? In two years, could we see more non-diverse and non-Nepo people being hired?
well with how far the pendulum has swung since DJT has come in, if Dems win in 28 then its plausible itll swing very far the other way (incl DEI maybe)
i fear politics is going to keep going to extremes on both sides in the US
wish we could go back to the times when people from the other party were "colleagues with a different view" rather than "second coming of hitler"
Yes, my buddy at Duke (white male from a poverty background, ~3.8 GPA, and good extracurriculars) was getting no traction with NYC IBD and buyside shops and had to settle for a regional mutual fund in Charlotte, while his sister at NC State got UMM PE sophomore year summer through Girls Who Invest + EB TMT IBD NYC junior year. She got asked way easier Qs than he did.
I see DEI helping women a lot. Like seriously, a lot. I don't see it helping black people. There's one black guy at my firm. He's a harvard grad and very senior.
I mean there are definitely more spots going to nepo hires and alumni of the MD’s boarding school / frat so even if they did zero DEI hiring you probably wouldn’t have gotten into one of your top 15 groups. If it makes you feel any better.
When I worked at a bank that shall remain nameless (it was Shiti), we were resume screening for interns from my undergrad school. We went thru and picked out the people who stood out at events that we did (info session, happy hour, etc). The HR lady then said there weren’t enough women in the pile (this was back as far as 2019). She said we should go back thru the reject pile to get more women. No joke, she was making us pick women’s resumes out of the pile who hadn’t shown up to a single event. In case you were wondering if HRs completely useless.
Also let’s just say you have 10 internship slots and 100 candidates (90 men, 10 women). Your bank wants 50/50 demographics so you take 5 men and 5 women. The acceptance rate for women is 50%. Now, is parity setting the same exact quota that totally skews the acceptance rate like this? Or would a fair way be to ensure that people’s acceptance rates are roughly in line with the proportion of people applying?
A good book is when Race Trumps Merit by Heather MacDonald. It highlights how far DEI goes in education and is crazy
You spent most of your post talking about women then shifted it to race lmao.
Did you notice that the people who stood out to you during happy hour were most like you talking about topics you most liked? Unless of course you were testing for technicals on the spot - but probably not. If someone did bring up something nerdy, you probably struck out that “weirdo” or “international” kid. That’s why HR made you revisit your list
Interesting theory. Or it’s because the people we had to revisit did not attend any events per all sign-in sheets. But yes probably implicit bias erased their names from the sheets
"Is recruiting rigged against non DEI semi targets ?"
No.
As someone who hired into associate roles, it’s even worse than most imagine. HR is ruthless in applying quotas and instilling fear into hiring managers. If people don’t play ball they can be fired, and I saw one guy fired for speaking up about this although obv they blamed it on something else.
It’s not even strictly about creating opportunity. Once you hire someone due to quotas AND they then underperform on the job, they’re nearly impossible to push out. Or the hires will blame their underperformance on racism/misogyny/the weather/“microaggressions”. It’s absolutely corrosive and destroys firm cultures
Personally, yes, I think non-DEI semi-target is a difficult position.
Blackstone London REPE Summer: 13 Women / 10 Men lol
and what is the problem with that? Women are represented, and men are just as represented. Don't women deserve a space in an industry that is overwhelmingly men? How is it that being a woman serves as a threat? Working women are also more likely to obtain an education than men in the UK.
Lol this is a stupid answer. If there are 13 women and 10 men while you have 3000 men applying vs 1000 women then obviously it is not fair. This is statistics 101
I know this may not be a popular opinion on WSO, but it’s something that needs to be said.
As a person of color, I refuse to call myself a DEI individual as the meaning and original intention of the word has significantly changed in the current political landscape. It attributes most of my accomplishments to my race, which is truthfully false. My hard work is based on my immigrant parents' endurance and my constant persistence being a first-gen person, while still managing to obtain several academic merit scholarships to go to college.
Firstly, most of these universities that are targets for these banks and PE firms have an undergraduate population that is mostly comprised of white and asian students. Other POC make up 8% or less of the entire university population. Even at these banks, the majority of those working there are white and asian. For these PE jobs, go on their websites, and look at their associates; most of these individuals are overwhelmingly white and asian.
This rhetoric that POC are taking opportunities away from you or making your work lives harder is quite frankly false. If you believe POC are unfairly taking opportunities from you, it might be worth asking where that belief comes from, and whether it's grounded in fact or fear. If you see any POC individuals working at your firm, they are most likely some of the hardest-working individuals you will know. Most of them don’t have their daddy's money or connections landing them jobs at these firms, and don't have to worry about how their “ethnic names” would be perceived on their resumes. They have most likely had to break down several barriers just to be where they are today.
Secondly, the idea that women are categorized as “DEI” on Wall Street is harmful. Women make up more than half of the population. We obtain more college degrees than men in America, often having to work harder than men, while still enduring unequal pay, Wall Street's fratty, patriarchal, and mansplaining culture. The very idea that women are lumped as DEI is further testament that Wall Street sees anything that is not a male white man as an anomaly and untouchable, and threatens a space primarily occupied by white men.
Thirdly, much of the backlash to DEI emerged during the Trump era, giving bigots a voice to blame any and everything on minorities, all the while scapegoating them, just like it has historically been done in America since its existence. The word DEI has now been transformed into a modern slur. DEI - the idea and normalization of undeserving black and brown people.
Moreover, whether you like to admit it or not, being a white man in America historically means you are born without the fear of having to experience racism, discrimination for your name or accent, benefit from legacy admissions, segregation, redlining, generational wealth, networks, and so much more. Truthfully, the system was built for you, and while black and brown people have had to fight for their rights just to exist, many white individuals were generations far ahead, and that's the whole reason DEI initiatives were needed in the first place. If you have to blame black and brown people for your shortcomings, you are quite frankly not working hard enough, cuz talk about having been born with (DEI yourselves).
So next time you want to blame POC or women for taking away your spots or making your work lives harder, call it what it is: your racism and insecurity. Your perceived threat of brown and black people that you fear threatens the institutional racism and the social and racial homogeneity that Wall Street historically held. Next time you see a black or brown co-worker, just be aware that they have had to work harder to be where they are, fighting against all odds just for being born brown or black in the United States.
Rather than focusing on POC’s and DEI, focus on yourself and your goals, because at the end of the day, white and Asian men are still the majority and are overwhelmingly represented at these banks and these PE firms.
So, no black and brown people are not taking your spots and are not a threat.
Congrats - maybe you’re one of the exceptions. But the reason that DEI has been rightfully skewered is because it mostly leads to unexceptional people taking the place of the exceptional. Solving for equality of outcome and putting quotas in place is the furthest thing from meritocracy.
Most people in this thread have worked with the incompetent intern who gets an offer anyways, or the incompetent analyst who gets top bucket despite shoddy work, or maybe even the incompetent MD promote where everyone whispers and laughs about them. And we’re sick of biting our tongues about the clear double standards created over the past 10-15 years that were supercharged when George Floyd OD’d on fentanyl and the world went crazy. We’re tired of hearing BS equivocating and “oh but nepotism and white privilege.”
Come back when you’re fighting for equal representation for women in coal mining and utility construction jobs.
This needed to be said.
For context, I'm an Asian woman and have held both GS IB and McKinsey offers - recruited through main rounds and never participated in diversity events because I always wanted everyone to achieve through merit. I have always been very low-key about myself because of all the awful campus bullying, jealousy, and sabotage. However, this did not stop men saying to my face that I got interviews because I'm an Asian woman (mind you, this man got a C in a first-year math paper). This did not stop someone who got ZERO IB interviews telling me how I got easier questions because I'm a woman. This did not stop someone saying I was getting a boost as an Asian woman.
Even during my GS summer, a man who did not get the IB SA role (but who got a different team) was telling me how I got easier questions. This rhetoric is extremely harmful. No one has any idea the blood, sweat, and tears I put in to get to where I am since high school. When I was crying every week during recruitment thinking I would never amount to anything, I always picked myself back up and did more prep than I thought I could ever do. I have worked my ass off, networked my ass off, and NEVER used the fact I am a woman to get anywhere. Heck, I was even explicitly told to use the fact that I was the best woman in technicals this banker had ever seen to my advantage, but I never used diversity. I went through the main rounds, and I still get this much hate to my face (yes, people say much worse things about my back and gossip because they have no lives).
Now, I don't oppose diversity programmes, because if you think about it, the structural barriers a woman faces are so vast that they're simply not comprehensible as a man. Growing up, I have had people tell me to be a teacher (a good job for a woman), that grades don't matter because I'm a woman so I can just get a rich husband - you name it, I've probably been told it. We are constantly being told we will never succeed nor should we even try - passive microaggressions are simply enough to deter women from pursuing their dreams. Then there's the issue the above commenter has pointed out - trying to fit into the culture. I myself am a severe pushover and I ashamedly never stand up for myself. I never argue back, and has that harmed my career? Yes, but it's not something I have learned to change.
Often, the women are of higher calibre because we have to work 150% to prove we are not a diversity hire, that we deserve the place every bit as much as a man, and that we are enough.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
"You get easier questions" like they were in the room with you interview. They're pathetic.
Total BS. You don’t have to be hired through DEI streams at all. Generally, banks have gender quotas and in order to meet them they lower the bar which is what was done in your case. I myself (BB staffer) was pressurised by HR to hire women to make it equal. These women were in the bottom quartile of the 10 candidates I personally interviewed. I had to give away 3 spots from the 6 available so our group-head can meet his DEI target.
So cringe. You dont see me walking around calling myself “as a white man”. I dont care if the finance industry is filled with purple people, just stop letting in such wet blankets
So what you're telling me is that the reason White/Asian candidates have a very low success rate and the reason Black/Latino candidates have a much higher success rate, is that Black & Latino candidates are just better at the job. I dunno, sounds pretty racist.
They are afraid to highlight the real beneficiary of DEI which are women (mostly white). The reason poison of DEI lingers on as we are selective in how we view DEI. Women DEI is viewed favorably by the white population while Black/Hispanics DEI is viewed negatively. Hence, unless we unequivocally condemn DEI in all shapes and forms, vile philosophy will continue to penalize young men.
As an Asian dxxk who fits "perfectly" in this category of this post, I want to say something as well. I've been told since young that guys should be strong, get married, sustain the family and wife, ultimately increasing our standards of outright masculinity. Just looking at statistics in East Asia, the wanted income for guys is at least 30-50% higher than female counterparts.
As a dude, I do want to provide for my future wife and my beloving mother. But the problem is when I see my hard work and sacrifices seem meaningless when liberal advocates of these DEI programs want these high-paying jobs as much as I do through a DEI pipeline with obviously easier questions and an HR love letter, claiming that my demographic is "overrepresented." It's even more saddening when I hear I'm privileged. But still, they want people like me to not complain and pay for the bills because I'm supposed to be a man.
My question is, what advantages does an Asian guy have in America (same goes for white people like JD Vance)? Japanese Americans had their citizenships revoked. Ex Korean American vets protected their stores from the LA riots with barely any attention from the LAPD. Immigrants from emerging countries like Cambodia and Vietnam don't have settlements and good English. What do these people have that DEI candidates don't? This will be hard to digest, but let me just say it out load: it's work ethic. Confucianism values work ethic in Asia and that makes this group so fiscally successful despite Affirmative Action and DEI barriers. It's just hard to swallow. College admissions know that, which is why Harvard puts a negative personal rating on Asians. Why is it fine to say Asians get good test scores but are not personable when it isn't fine to say Blacks are personable but get bad test scores? Isn't this reverse racism?
This pressure on work ethic and need to succeed is what drives the culture. Is it healthy? Fuck no, I think it's fucking toxic and I hate it. But it isn't something to penalized. This is the reason these "model minority" strive for jobs like finance, engineering, and so on so forth. Why can't we have DEI in the NBA, Hip-Hop scene, or anything else? Why isn't there DEI in female-majority jobs like stewardess?
It's just more likely for boys to download Robinhood in high school and trade stocks like it's a game. There's just a higher chance that a guy plays LoL and acts immature out of it. It's just MORE LIKELY that a dude is going to feel more catharsis by making $10 out of some random memestock trade. Thus, this is what skews the demographics in finance, just through straight up interests and hobbies like I was. Vice versa, I definitely can't compassionate as well as girls do since boys are admittingly immature at most times when it comes to situations.
And for the Asian girls as well. I'm really curious what disadvantages they had in this generation? Asian parents these days pour thousands of money just for education and to go to a good college regardless of the sex. In fact, some developed East Asian countries prefer to have daughters over sons. I can literally hear from the back that they had it easier because of DEI. I can literally hear from the DEI executive board of a club that it's even easier for DEI candidates to break in. They just can't swallow it when I say it out loud to them because I'm so overrepresented and privileged.
I'm not saying discrimination doesn't exist. Of course it does. There are 330 million people in the US alone. But is there systematic racism against these so-called minorities? I don't think so. I'd rather say these DEI programs is 21st century Jim Crow, gaslighting people like me that others who look like me had it better when we really didn't. I can't believe I've become so right-winged when I considered myself a liberal in high school who believe it or not was extremely touched when seeing a Black dude get accepted to Stanford just my writing BLM on his essay and see my sports heroes bend the knee.
Is there a problem? Maybe.
Does complaining about it do you any good? No.
If you are good enough, you will break in. If you don’t, the first person you blame should be yourself.
People break in from the most random backgrounds every year.
Thankfully I’m able to see both sides of this issue. Is DEI a bad thing, of course not. It helps people associated with underrepresented groups in the industry break in. Has it gone too far with definitive hiring quotas, yes.
I ultimately believe that the best people for the role should be hired no matter what race or gender they are. I understand the frustration some people may have with seeing a group of women and minorities have easier access to a role than them, but Wall Street has a way of weeding people out who are not qualified. Interned at a BB and have seen so called “diversity hires” who are not all qualified. However they usually burn out or don’t get the return offer (a lot of that last summer). On the other end of the spectrum I’ve seen women and minorities be the most qualified candidate for the job often rising to the best analyst / intern in their group. It sucks to see the under qualified crowd dragging those down that really do deserve the recognition and praise for their hard work and sacrifice to be the best in their role.
I think DEI should be positioned as learning programs or opportunities to help underrepresented groups in the space to break into the industry. Allowing those who want to learn and the hardest workers to come out on top. However, I disagree that there should be distinct hiring quotas requiring firms to hire someone just because they look like X. Hopefully with learning programs it helps more people who do not have an easier path to Wall Street become more competitive down the road. It may take some time but that’s my .02.
But definitely need to stop calling everyone women or POC a “DEI hire” off the rip because there are so many accomplished and often over qualified people in this group that have gotten in without the help of DEI programs and hiring practices. And even if they did, if they’re qualified, work hard, and are the best person for the role they should be hired anyways.
Again I disagree with diversity quotas of any kind. However, if a women who happens to be the most qualified for a role also happens to get hired under a DEI quota then it’s a double win for the bank as they get to fill their quota and hire the most qualified candidate.
Want to reiterate the message that just because someone is hired under DEI doesn’t mean they aren’t the most qualified candidate.
if you ultimately believe that, then you would believe DEI is bad. race/sex based hiring was destined to lead to quotas from the get-go. affirmative action proved that decades ago.
Man I don’t control if the system leads to quotas or not 😂 . But I’m entitled to my perspective and what I feel DEI should be.
DEI is baller. I even think there should be minimum quotas on how many white dudes get drafted into the NBA
Intellectual dishonesty is widespread from the beneficiaries of DEI (mostly Beckies and their facilitators). Flip to pg 6 of this racial audit by a big bank. See how unrealistic their DEI targets are, ie 50% women in VP+ roles, and they provide no justification for them. 20% of the SLT comp is linked to these targets meaning MDs will be forced to artificially create diversity by holding back men in recruitment and promotions. Besides women, they are only interested in prioritizing Indigenous / Blacks males.
https://www.td.com/content/dam/tdcom/canada/about-td/pdf/esg/2023-td-racial-equity-assessment-report-en.pdf
My bank hired somebody recently way out of cycle, very last minute. Good school, bad GPA, no relevant experience. White straight male w well educated parents and not a cheap home. True story.
Anytime I’ve seen these happen (10+ years), these exceptions are always like above and some CEOs kid. We have more of these in a year than black or Hispanic kids in 3-5 years total. Very reputable US bank. Thx
Epicentre of DEI policies. Trump needs to defund these karens,
https://g7.canada.ca/en/g7-information/gender-equality-advisory-council/
Yes yes, where is Chris Rufo when you need him?
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