Notre Dame or Oxford as an Intl to Both
Background:
International student for both schools.
Finance at ND (Mendoza) vs Economics & Management at Oxford
Would graduate ND debt-free, but take out significant loans (think near 6 figures) for Oxford.
In my mind, some Pros and Cons.
Notre Dame Pros:
Awesome traditional American campus. Great community. Amazing alumni network. Target for Finance with nice NYC placements. Relatively affordable. Nice location (according to me, i guess this is controversial). Traditional college experience - football (I'm a big fan) and other extracurriculars i.e. more holistic, all-round experiences. The OPT visa option so I don't have to H1B directly as in the case of Oxford.
Notre Dame Cons:
Not quite at the HYPS + Wharton level for Finance placements. Not quite as much reach in New York and Wall Street. Slightly lower prestige than the aforementioned schools. The weather, I guess? Somewhat? Small dorms?
Oxford Pros:
Super-target for IB and Finance. International recognition. Tutorial system is great. 3 year degree (not sure if this is a pro).
Oxford Cons:
London IB doesn't pay nearly as well as NYC, so I don't know how long I'd have to work to pay the loans off. Can't really go to the US immediately after graduation as I'd have to look for H1B sponsorship. UK doesn't sound like the best place to be at in general. Not a big fan of the really old architecture. Less of a tight-knit community compared to ND. More expensive. Not as much extracurricular and cool other fun stuff to do - more of an academic environment.
I'm also waiting on results from other ivies.
Some perspectives and opinions?
ND Student here. Placements to Wall Street are much stronger than reported. Career center expects to place ~300 to the street a year. Huge BofA, GS presence, just underreported. Look into SIBC - it's a fantastic recruiting funnel that gets almost everyone their job, and is much easier to break into than Ivy clubs that recruit the first week of your freshman year.
Aside from placement, this place is significantly less toxic than Ivies, and the finance community here is tight. Sports fun, culture fun, dorms are great. Give it an honest look.
Yeah I've definitely heard that Mendoza's outcomes tend to get underrated by people in the community that still consider it to be like a Semi-Low Target when in reality it places far beyond that. Also heard great things about SIBC, the Wall Street Club, and the Alumni network.
Does ND place as well into Wall Street as it does Chicago? I would've thought that it gets a bit overshadowed by Wharton, HYPS, Stern, Columbia etc. in the City.
And are these outcomes consistent for internships? What sort of things do you reckon I could do as a freshman to be a little bit ahead of the curve? As an international student I'd really like to make sure I'm doing everything I can to really maximize my chances of landing a role in the US upon graduation.
And as a student do you feel like ND ever plays second-fiddle to UChic/NU in Chicago or the aforementioned schools in NYC, or is it more of a case like, you go to a target school so you tick the first box and the rest is more dependent on skills/experience etc?
I get that you may not have all the answers since you're not in the industry yourself, but just genuinely interested in your perspective even as a student.
And for what it's worth, I really love the idea of going to ND. It seems like such a wonderful school. The campus, student body, dorm system, football, all of it seems like something I'd really enjoy. I'm just trying to also ensure I'm making the best choice for my future.
went to a school similar to ND (semi target/ Midwest) for undergrad and oxbridge for masters, here are my thoughts:
Culture: i would agree with you that ND or just american schools would have significantly better culture in sports especially football, but I would like to caveat that Oxbridge also has great culture within its college system (you can look it up) which is really unique to its own. British people have their own sports that they are into: for example rowing is really big within Oxbridge.
Placement: UK pay is generally 20% less than America with similar living cost (NY vs LDN), but i would also caveat that at the end of the day, ND is still a tier 2 target/ semi-target for NYC/ SF and would rank on par or half a tier behind UChicago and Northwestern in Chicago whereas Oxbridge is THE school for recruiting.
Most firms in LDN sponsors international students as there are so many continental europeans working there whereas its less common to sponsor a junior in america (not to mention the BB/EB that don't sponsor at all) and you can also internally move back to america if you end up working in LDN (can verify JPM and BofA have such options and I can imagine other firms do too)
I was also a UK hater before coming here and most of my friends warned me about the god awful food and weather. However, I really enjoyed my time here and thats why I decided to stay. If you haven't experienced UK/Europe i strongly recommend coming here and see it for yourself before making a decision.
With that all being said, I do understand money is going to be a huge and realistic factor when you are making your decision and it is ultimately you and your family's decision. Good Luck on the future and I hope you won't regret the decision.
i realize that it's been a few months, but this comment was extremely helpful and helped me make the decision to go to Oxford this fall.
Very wise decision. Oxford is a top target school (along with LBS, Cambridge, LSE) which could take you far for IB process.
You'll really enjoy your time here especially Oxford is just approximately 1hr from London, which is the only city along with NYC that's considered an Alpha++ city for a good number of reasons.
Weather is not too bad as many people say. Yes it's awful during winter but during spring/summer, sun comes out pretty frequently and london suddenly becomes the best city in the world.
Food scene in London is just awesome it's incredibly internationally diverse. I also came to the UK as an international student but never really had the stereotypical British foods here cuz there were way too many good options and I was spoiled lol. London is so much more international than NYC in my opinion as I am currently in NYC right now so you'd certainly find your peers.
Also, for the pay, it's usually going to be 20% lower but there are number of banks that pay on par with NYC, some even better so it's not too bad. London also has better WLB, free healthcare (unlike the US), better proximity to other countries so a quick weekend trip to Europe or further out is not uncommon here, and you don't have to pay £100.
Have fun tho!
ND is no where near a semi target.
I will say it feels with every class semi-target finance club kids (and even non-target finance club kids) take more and more share of the placements. Likely due to the process moving earlier and earlier. Obviously there are still spots taken by the stereotypical Ivy kids who don’t know what WACC is, and of course the finance club kids at targets get insane placements
delete
I was deciding between Brown Applied Math + Econ and Oxford Math + Stat and ended up choosing Oxford instead... I made a similar post here, think it'd help you out: https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forum/hedge-fund/oxford-vs-ivy-league-us-immigration-issues-green-card
(But the cost for Brown and Oxford were the same to me)
Didn’t you also post about pay gap between U.S. vs UK to justify your decision lol
cool lol i hope we both enjoy being at oxford this year. what college?
DMed :)
that is EXTREMELY attractive, the US visa situation for non-canadians/mexicans is so uncertain and volatile while the UK seems to be a lot more okay with it. i think i'd be okay working in london for 3-4 years and then with my oxford degree + experience going to a top MBA in the US and landing the H1B to work in NYC after that.
Oxford is the right choice here, you will never regret that you accepted it. Congrats and best of luck OP
Oxford and it's not particularly close.
Notre Dame if you want to be in the US (if you care about pay, you should), otherwise Oxford. People underrate ND for some reason.
would it be reasonable to go to oxford, work in London IB for 3-4 years, then go to a top american MBA and get to the US that way? as an international, putting all my eggs in the US basket rn seems a bit risky considering how unpredictable this administration seems to be with visas and OPTs.
Why do all of that? It seems unnecessary, draining, and time consuming. If you want to be in the US it's ND, if you want anywhere else it's Oxford. The second point is all up to your risk tolerance, I can't argue that there is uncertainty but I'd sway on the side of you being fine.
Notre Dame is the better school no question but I would still go to Oxford because of your visa situation. There is no guarantee you get an IB job in the US as an international no matter what school you're from. Few banks sponsor and it's a total crapshoot.
this was my thought process too. and i imagine i'll have opportunities to move to the US later after getting an oxford degree + london ib work exp.
Are you OK? Did this guy really just say "Notre Dame is the better school no question" against Oxford? Oxford arguably is the most respected university in the world on par with Harvard... 99% of people who have heard of Oxford have never heard of Notre Dame
OP, do not listen to this BS - Oxford is a better uni and visa situation in UK is a lot easier. Good luck in fall.
Bro fr said Notre Dame is a better school than the University of Oxford...
Hahah this guy has to be joking, no way
Nvm! You alr made your decision.
Don't be short-sighted. Oxford carries so much more prestige in the world. Then go work in London, and if you really really want the US just do an MBA in your mid 20s. Oxford + solid post undergrad work xp, + strong GMAT should land you into a top tier MBA like Harvard or Stanford.
ND does not have anywhere the same global cachet. This is a very US centric and biased forum but trust me it's night and day. You'll probably do way better for MBA admissions with oxford on your CV.
You'll also have more fun in your early 20s in Europe trust me... Then if you feel you want to crank harder and make more money you can go to the US in your mid 20s....
pretty much exactly my thought process. oxford --> london IB --> top US MBA --> US IB seems a lot more safe considering my situation as an international and oxford's global prestige (that goes beyond ND's semi-prestige in finance circles) as compared to ND --> NYC IB (as an international needing sponsorship)
My three years at Oxford were the best years of my life. Go to Oxford and party every single night in your 2nd year.
ND is a great school, but go to Oxford
As an Oxford student, go Oxford contingent on the exact size and how manageable the loan is.
I can’t speak to any experience of “prestige” since I’m not in the real world yet, but I imagine it’s better at Oxford.
What I can tell you is the opportunities here. I often meet crazy smart people who have done really cool things or want to go on and do them. This kinda stuff is pretty invaluable to me - I love being around people who’ve got interesting frameworks on how they think different industries and structures of the world work, learning more about how it operates, and how they seek to contribute to it. I don’t doubt there’s plenty of impressive people at Notre Dame - but these people here really are world class.
E&M is a piss easy degree. I’m the moron stuck inside staring at Analysis II while e&m students are out partying and probably networking all day and all night long. Yes, there’s an academic focus, but you’ll have fun in your course if you look for it.
Now in terms of pure enjoyment, I don’t doubt Notre Dame has us beat. My friend goes there and the pictures of their football games look sick. Shotgunning beers at tailgate parties, you’re not going to have that at Oxford. Don’t get me wrong, if you want to have fun you can find the groups for it here, it’s just a different scale. So if this is your primary concern - yeah I do think you’d have more fun at ND.
Hope I’ve provided some insight. If you’ve got any more questions lmk I’ll be happy to tell you what I know. This is a big decision and you should carefully analyze it.
some pretty nice insights thanks. i'm going to be attending oxford. i think i like the idea of going to ND more, but it's very difficult to justify NOT taking oxford, even if purely for the weight it'll carry on my CV forever. and as you said, i'm sure i'll find my fun partying lol i've heard brits do it different (plus the drinking age not being 21 is a blessing).
with the loan - my parents are willing to help pay it off, although it'll be tight financially for them, so i plan to pay them back in the future - basically, i have some flexibility there.
the way i see it, i can work in london IB till i have enough saved up to go do a top US MBA and move to NYC IB that way. sure, it's a longer, more roundabout way of doing it (and i'll be making less money in london) but it feels a lot more secure than going to ND and potentially not getting a firm to sponsor my visa in the US and then having ND on my resume which doesn't carry nearly much weight outside of the US as oxford does.
just all around, oxford seems like the better choice. plus, the 3 year oxford course essentially gives ND a 1 year opportunity cost.
Was Notre Dame the best school you got into in the US or did you have other options? (Ivies, uchicago
no ivies unfortunately, just waitlists and some other semi targets i got into (UNC, UT, Kelley, Rice)
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