Too many bots in banking?
This isn’t to offend people on here who a great majority have grinded their way to get into IB but it’s a little shocking seeing how many anti-social sweats make up junior classes nowadays. I know it depends heavily on the bank and group, but it definitely irks me when an analyst/associate can’t hold a conversation for more than 10 seconds or just bring up bizarre things when they’re talking as if they didn’t touch grass in undergrad. And the arrogance they have adds to my distaste for this new type of behavior I’m seeing. I understand we want to hire smart and motivated people, but banking is just as much about social skills as it is technical, if not more so. Is this just isolated to my experience or a broader issue? Is it a lagging effect of Covid lockdowns causing psychological issues on my generation and younger? Would like input
Well, that's what happens when you make the process so heavily favored towards those who spend most of their free time on linkedin or technical work. IB and jobs in general used to favor candidates who were more well rounded. I remember in my graduating class back in the mid to late 2010s, most of the people entering banking had decent backgrounds, maybe 1 internship and maybe spent like a month prepping for IB, and that's all it really took. Banks have continually made the recruiting process worse and worse and this is the result. Students have to start networking in their freshman fucking year if they want to stand a chance against some of their peers. They don't have time to focus on social lives because they have to grind out an for an IB internship, along with working on finding an internship for current summer, and potentially working on their internship this summer, while also trying to manage clubs, schoolwork, classwork, and any other obligations. Is it any wonder why these people are anti-social and burnt out? When you make the process as bad as it is, you can't expect students to be well rounded and have depth in all these different areas. You can't expect a social candidate who also has multiple experiences and strong technicals and have all this by sophomore fucking year. My god, I feel so terrible for the students recruiting for IB. I still go to events at my old college because they invite me to stuff(one nice benefit of donations) and all the IB and SnT students recruiting feel like they just want it to be over.
I mean, when does it end? IB jobs postings are happening right now, a fucking year and a half before people even start! That's absurd! In any other industry we'd call this what it is: A dogshit process run by people who don't have any idea what is going on in the daily lives of college students. I mean, how much further can students be pushed? How much more can you expect of people who barely have any grasp of their lives, to somehow be extremely capable and have all these different skills?
It's a result of how competitive jobs and schools have run for some time. Schools and firms both. When you have Harvard students who spent their entire HS lives balancing academics, ECs, essays, and other obligations, when do these people have time to, yknow, socialize? They don't. And when only the people who work incredibly hard and don't socialize make it to top schools these people don't socialize with each other. And you know what else? The only thing these people know how to do, is grind like hell, so that's what they do. They just grind. And so you end up with a culture where only the people who spend 100% of their time grinding like hell ever get a seat. So until you change that element of the culture, you'll never change the end result
I think what you’re disregarding is that the people designing this process ARE explicitly aware of what they are controlling for. As someone who knew nobody in IB/PE/HF/AM growing up (although some institutional RE), I was at a disadvantage to get wind of how “the path” worked and my ignorance of that is what allows the sons of finance professionals to have an edge. If your dad tells you right before college starts that you do xyz to get a job at Goldman Sachs, you have 1.5 years to put in the leg work to make it happen. If you start college with little clue of how things work, you may not get wind of the steps until halfway through your freshman year (especially if undergrad program is not BBA). If recruiting were to start later, the edge of the incumbent crowd diminishes because they have less of a time edge on you, relatively speaking. With this in mind, why would their parents, those in charge, let their kids operate at even a slight disadvantage? Just my 2c, but this is not an accident.
I partly agree. That is definitely a big reason why this is the case. But the problem also has to do with the fact that so many people know about IB/PE/Quant/other high paying careers due to social media. And so, more people are racing for the same jobs early. That aspect is hard to ignore, the social media aspect, and making these careers seem more idyllic than they actually are.
Also, I've been in the rooms where they decide when to recruit. Almost always, it's a game theory decision. If you don't push your applications up a month, and your competitors do, then they get the first pick, and with how rushed the process is with exploding offers and all, it causes a lot of students to sign their first BB offer rather than waiting to see what else is out there. So every bank pushes up the process in the hopes to get a slight advantage with a few select students.
In an ideal world, it would be the schools pushing back on this. And some have, in the past, basically blocked firms from recruiting that early. IIRC my bank was basically told to screw off by Cornell once when we tried to recruit a month earlier than normal, which forced us to back off. But in general, schools are still "okay" with the process, and that's part of the problem. The schools should be protecting the students, but they just aren't.
Worthwhile to add that most banks see analysts as just resources to grind out work for hours on end (and leave for other jobs / burn out) instead of actual assets to grow into career bankers / roles where soft skills and being good at building out relationships actually matter. Being social doesn’t matter from a value creation perspective until maybe like VP or up for them. Hence waves of mechanical grinders willing to go through hellish hours.
Maybe with AI taking out the grindy work this could change and we move back towards good socializing / sharp thinking & instincts matter more.
Used to be the nepo/the chill finance bros would get all the gigs at GS/MS, whereas the nerdy kids would end up in tech or of the like.
As someone above me said, you're not filtering for anything but the kids who are the most locked in or the ones that are the most sweaty. The fact that recruiting starts less than 3 semesters into college, and interviews over our breaks, pushes students to be more sweaty, desperate, rather than going out or having fun. People make this such a big part of their lives now as well.
I think the points above are largely accurate. Could be a variety of things ranging from coincidence to just a less social generation due to anxiety which is plaguing the younger generations more than older ones. I don’t want to generalize, but I will say that when I was on my way out of banking, I noticed that the biggest shift in this type of grinder persona came from largely the non nepo + non target combination. Again, not to say every kid from a nontarget or a state school who grinded their way to IB lacks social skills, but I think having such rigorous criteria for those with not a strong network as nepo hires and target kids filters out the more social and outgoing well-rounded kids at these schools and leaves the smelly grinder who would rather refine a model for their own practice than shower. I may be biased cuz there were two young analysts that I couldn’t fucking stand because of how arrogant and socially inept they were. Anyways that’s my 2 cents.
It's a bit of a catch-22. On one hand, it's believed that you need a massive chip on your shoulder in order to break into IB from a non-target. On the other hand, no one wants to work with someone who has a massive chip on their shoulder. Sorry you had a bad experience.
My niece, who is in high school, tells me that the recruiting prep now starts in high school. The following week after students get their college early-admission results ( which is around the mid of high school final-year ) they started to network with LinkedIn Alumni, some book flights to NYC during winter holiday.
Several even eye-ing internship for the summer holiday prior to college, using family connections to get internship in small funds, utilizing all connections that their parents and uncles and aunts can get.
You have no idea the amount of preparation -- my niece tell me that she has stopped putting effort in high school coursework because cite "the college admission result is already locked-in so high-school coursework is now useless" and she allocate 20 hours per week studying Excel because "its the useful skill for job "and her friends do so too.
One of her friends who turned 18 before graduating high-school, already secured a summer internship at a family-office fund for their final HIGH SCHOOL year.
Another of her friend was so anxious and devastated because he was born in November so he isn't old enough ( 18 years old ) to do a pre-college internship. His dad has connected him for an small bank internship but he was declined for being three months short of age. He complains this over-and over-gain saying its not fair for him to miss an internship because of his stupid birthday, and now he has fallen behind her peers in recruiting and he may always fall one step behind the others.
Can you believe that ? They are just high school kids and already this anxious.
What’s sad is that these kids are grinding so hard for jobs that probably won’t exist or will be greatly reduced by the time they graduate college. 5 more years of AI will destroy analyst jobs.
Yeah, your niece is 100 percent spot on. I remember one coffee chat with an MD. I was talking to her about the process starting freshman year and getting internships every semester, and she straight-up told me that there was no way she would have made it in today.
Normalise calling these type of kids with zero social skills or personality 'Clankers'
Resident doomer student here. I guess I'll chime in and give yall a perspective from the student side, albeit a perspective of one who didn't try nearly as I probably should have and thus will be unemployed. Sorry if I jump around a bit.
It's a generational problem, not just localized to internships or just college in general. Everything that kids back in the day did for fun like sports, art, theater has been comemrcialized and priced to the point where families spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars a year for these activities, and that financial pressure put onto the kid really messes them up. I know kids who did travel baseball in highschool and parents would spend upwards of 4 to 5 thousand dollars a season in order to pay for tournaments, gear, flights, and hotels. The youth sports industry has been bastardized and became a money making industry.
If we're being honest, the entry level job market is practically dead at this point, at least in finance. Of course, it's always been difficult in order to get a job in finance, but there are basically no more formal hiring processes for entry level IB analyst roles. You can more than fill what you need from just your standard SA class, so there's no real incentive to post any FT roles. With that being said, that basically gives college students 3(more like 2 and a half) years in order to get a job which really isn't a lot of time in the grand scheme of things.
The cost of college has also skyrocketed to where the ROI is incredibly poor in a lot of people's cases. I went to an extreme non target for the first 2 and a half years on my undergrad. With no scholarships, I would be paying 50-60 thousand a year just to maybe make 50 thousand at my first job. With such a high cost, this drives students towards careers that actually justify it. I used to hear that college is where you found yourself. Maybe in the old days when employers still valued people as people, but not anymore. There's just too much money at stake in order to do so.
As far as what banks or schools could do, I mean on the banks side they could at least maybe hire more(LOL)? I mean they clearly have the supply, and applicants are more prepared today then they ever were. For the schools, I mean you could tell the banks to fuck off, but that's not happening.
Edit: I still think kids, and people for the most part are pretty social. I'm a pretty sociable guy and if I was working 90-100 hours a week I think I'd be a pretty mute guy by the time the work week was done.
So fucking true. And what's worse, is that we can't just send our kids out to play. They need to be supervised to go to a league at a scheduled time. It used to be that you could just watch your kids from the porch or a bench in the park while they played, or they would have their own independence to explore the world. Now, you have to constantly babysit. I'm hoping to avoid this with my kids, but it's already pretty bad.
Generally, yes. Internships have become a really low risk way for firms to get talent through an extended interview process. And tbh, it's really gross how high interview standards have become over the last couple years. Hopefully a better market will bring those standards down, as you shouldn't need to go through any more than 3 rounds of interviews. What are you going to learn about a candidate in interview 5 you didn't learn in interview 2?
Your line about college being for finding yourself and it not being true rings for me. I went to school when things were definitely expensive. I mean, I know since covid it's gotten SO much worse, but my UG would've cost about 50-60k without good aid. I saw my classmates basically put self development "on hold" until they got a job. I know people who reached 30 and still had no fucking clue what they wanted from life, all because of school+IB+other jobs and roles.
I still talk to college students as a result of my relationship with my school. The kids that are the most social are not those going for IB. They know that they don't want to put in that kind of grind. Usually, they're aiming for consulting, some med or law school, I know a lot that go to work for tech and other finance firms. But a lot of students just don't want to network for 3 hours a day in a soul sucking manner just for a shot to maybe get an interview only to end up in a job working 80 hour work weeks. Can you really blame them?
Ironically, by most metrics, we live in a much safer time than when millennials and Gen X were growing up. Milk Carton kids aren't a thing anymore. I hope your kids are able to play outside alone and especially with other kids, but honestly nowadays that's the number one way to get DYFS/CPS called on you. This might be a hot take by me but I'd venture and say that the IRL world is safer than the internet at this point, especially with AI being so unregulated and extremely realistic.
I'm surprised that the most social kids are the ones going to med or law school. My brother is currently a third-year med student and I kid you not this man studies minimum 7 hours a day. I mean maybe he doesn't have to network but by God is it a absolute grind. Law school also looks like complete hell, especially studying for the bar, but I don't have any first or second hand knowledge of that.
too much brainroot and having friends on Discord leads to this
WSO has become the Discord for finance bros lol.
The truth hurts
This is why I pulled my group of out of our firm’s campus recruiting process and decided to take a more idiosyncratic approach - we happen to be very good at what we do and exits etc, but under the radar so we normally wait for people to find us or rely on friends / referrals from the current group. I don’t care about previous banking experience or even interest in banking, but I want one of four things.
We actually have a lot of juniors and all of them either approached us out of the blue or were referrals. But I prefer the total randomness of it to the current “process”. Also I hate networking, send your resume, we will read it, if you are hiring and fit one of criteria 1-3, let’s cut the crap and get to an interview
I hate the way networking works for juniors. It's like, we know why you're doing this. We want to help you, but we don't have fucking time for the same old questions. Networking in industry is SO different, and I honestly can say I really love networking with people in industry, hearing their stories and such. It's just making friends with people in your industry, and we've somehow changed that into some weird business term. I mean, I like working with people I like, so yes, if I meet someone naturally that I like, then I'll recommend them. But the current system is so unnatural that I struggle to call it networking and closer to just blindly begging strangers.
The recruitment process for this industry has seemingly changed a lot since I joined.
I fully second what you write here. There was always a level o serendipity for certain candidates with "unusual profiles", but the interest in finance and willingness/grit to learn and contribute. In addition, it was also a key criteria to sign-up people you had a feeling would be sane, and fun enough to go for a drink after work or spent X hours working together.
Indeed, most people left at some stage, but links and bonds remained important.
And yeah, banking (most jobs?) is a sales job, particularly at MD level.
Ranger school count for 2?
PM? I have a legit connection that fits 1&2, unsure of 3&4.
As a candidate that matches this criteria, can you please PM me?
OP, you're spitting absolute gospel, but you're still being way too polite about this catastrophe unfolding in front of our eyes.
We've allowed a full-scale invasion of Clankers, Bots, and Socially Neutered Excel Monkeys into what used to be the most elite, charismatic, relationship-driven profession on the planet. And now? It's turning into a goddamn autistic sweatshop where the highlight of the week is someone discovering a new keyboard shortcut.
I've seen it happen in real time. The moment you let three or four of these awkward, zero-eye-contact, "umm actually" types slip through the hiring net, the cancer spreads. Why? Because birds of a feather hire together. It's basic human nature. These bots look around the analyst pool, see other bots who smell like Red Bull and unwashed Patagonia vests, and think: "Perfect. This candidate also sounds like he's been locked in a windowless room refining LBO models since puberty instead of ever touching grass, talking to a girl, or experiencing joy. Immediate offer. Exploding in 24 hours"
Next thing you know, your entire junior class can't order a drink without sounding like they're reading from a pitch book script. Client dinners? Forget it. They're sitting there dissecting cap tables while the MD is trying to charm a CEO over steak and single malt. It's embarrassing. It's career suicide. It's why deals are dying on the vine.
We need drastic corrective action, yesterday:
Post-GFC, we slashed comp, democratized access, and suddenly every hyper-ambitious, chip-on-shoulder grinder from a non-target thinks IB is their golden ticket to respect and money. Newsflash: insecurity breeds arrogance, not charisma. These are the same kids who spent high school refining debate techniques instead of learning how to talk to normal humans.
And yes, let's say the quiet part out loud: the pendulum is swinging back. The return of old-school networks, alumni preferences, and cultural fit is going to naturally purge a lot of these bots who simply do not belong in relationship-heavy businesses. If you're the type whose entire personality is LeetCode for finance and aggressive LinkedIn DMs, that's fine – go be a quant, go to a prop shop, go to tech. But stay the hell out of investment banking.
The ones who belong here are the ones who can run a model and run a room.
If we don't fix this soon, we'll wake up one day and realize the entire industry has been colonized by people who think "networking" means coffee chats and "client entertainment" means sending a PDF.
Save banking. Filter ruthlessly. Bring back charisma or die trying.
Lol thanks ChatGPT
"Finishing School for Analysts – First 6 months on the desk should include compulsory training in eye contact, storytelling, small talk, and basic human lubrication. Teach them how to talk about sports, travel, women/men, anything that isn't "duration convexity" or "my 400-question technical prep guide."
This may be genuinely the maddest idea I've seen on WSO. Fair play
On my old CIB Corporate banking team half the analysts were infantilized. The mental ages of these people were seriously pre-teen, despite being fully grown adults with an education and an elite job. They wouldn't touch alcohol at happy hours if they even decided to go, would just awkwardly stand around and stare at you. At one event I remember it was this girl's first time drinking. I think they were genuinely on the spectrum.
I don't get what the strategy is with hiring these types of people given it's the exact opposite of what the job requires to bring in revenue as you progress. I've heard it's not just with undergrad anymore, these types are getting MBA's and embarrassing themselves at the networking events.
Nah you’re not crazy, a lot of juniors are just socially cooked post-Covid and think being smart makes up for zero people skills.
If people really want to solve the problem
A) ban technical interviews for analysts. You get nothing out of it other than showing someone memorizing something pointless. The best way to judge smarts is actual academic performance.
B) don’t hire finance majors and don’t hire people who were in finance clubs. The people who turn to be the best in finance jobs tend to be the ones with the least interest in finance in college
I’ve done these things and it’s done wonders for the quality of our analyst classes - work wise and personality wise
"Tough luck kiddo you showed too much interest in the industry of your future career"
Best way to show interest is to make yourself an interesting accomplished person
Hire more econ kids. They tend to go far and they're more well rounded.
-- from an econ major lol
I'm convinced 90% of the people on this topic are just frustrated frat boys who couldn't break in 'cause they spent too much time at the beer pong table rather than studying their technicals and researching the industry.
Mediocre whites gonna mediocre white
Not sure why them being white or not really matters
Who GAF about technicals or researching the industry.
Everything you will have learned about technicals is pointless and we will have to reteach you.
Everything you will have learned about the industry is just wrong
Technical skills are just table stakes - any decent finance professional learns them in the first six months on the job (and you need zero prior knowledge) and moves on. I don’t know why juniors and candidates obsess over them
Complaining about "Too many bots in banking" yet you're the MD spending new year's eve on wso.
Perhaps its like college students who are so tied to their college, because it is the only thing that currently reflects their status...?
Look at the recruiting pipeline, the interview difficulty, and the competition in the job market. No kids with social skills or actual interests are going to know to or want to be spending their freshman summer studying technicals to kick off interviews during their sophomore winter break. Add in the fact that success in networking is measured by how many people you can spam email to beg for a referral instead of actually building real relationships. I genuinely don't understand why our interview bank has questions on bond math and accretion/dilution when the technical aspects of this job easily get picked up on the desk. It filters out a lot of people you would want to actually have a conversation with, and instead replaces the industry with these hyperfixated finance nerds who can't have a conversation and spend their senior year prepping for on-cycle.
I don’t understand this at all. IB is an industry where you have to network like hell to break in, why the fuck are analysts referring kids that are bots and giving them interviews then?
Say what you want about bots in investment banking - these kids tip their MDs VERY WELL
The frat bro first year analysts could learn allot from them
Too many fucking rats
Can you please elaborate like physical rats? Or?0
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