Hey guys:
My buddy currently goes to UVa, and he got accepted to Wharton as transfer. If he takes the offer, he'll start in wharton as a junior. But at the same time, since he's in-state @ UVa, he has to take an extra of 50000-60000 loan for wharton.
this guy has 3.97 GPA @ UVa, likes UVa a lot, probably going to be a top student @ McIntire School of Commerce, member on varsity crew team, works for private equity firms every summer/winter break. With this kind of experience and academic performance, I think he can be the star @ UVa and land on the investment banking job he wants after undergrad. However, he wants to do banking or private equity in Europe immediately after undergrad, and thinks Wharton can give him an edge here. I guess he also wants to meet some more brilliant kids at Wharton. he has made up his mind yet. Do you think it's worth it to transfer?
No, don't transfer. 3.97 a UVA with sold internships is fantastic and will not hinder his employment.
Why is it just Penn vs UVA? With that GPA he should consider H/Y/S which will get him even further than Wharton long term.
Transfering would be a terrible idea. With a 3.9+ from UVA you will have your choice of any BB IB job. Also, you can have an awesome time at one of the most well rounded schools in the country vs going to Penn where you will not have nearly as much fun.
eh, I think he should transfer.
If he can find a way to average that 3.97 GPA with the GPA he's going to get at a real college, and perhaps graduate cum laude, that would be far better than sticking around with his crap non-target school.
dude, normally i appreciate your comments. but you can't fling shit at UT, UMich, Berk, or UVA...those 4 state schools while no Harvard deserve more respect.
Did you actually go through IB recruiting? Because based on your numerous posts...you have no idea what you're talking about.
During my superdays at BB firms, UVa had multiple candidates present. A friend of mine who goes to UVa had IB superdays at several BB firms. It's not as strong as say Harvard or Wharton, but it's absolutely a target. If he's doing that well, he should stay.
You have got to be kidding me. UVA is definitely not a crap school. It is a target. Get your facts straight, I've been through recruiting lists, there are a lot of analysts coming out of UVA.
According to what you've given us, he should stay.
If he believes that the opportunities at Wharton (lifestyle, networking, prestige, etc.) are worth the price, then it's his call. He will be able to get to where he wants to go either way.
I was faced with almost the exact same decision after my freshman year at school. I went and talked to the dean about it and he convinced me to stay. He said it's far better to be at a school where I'm already happy and where I've proven I can stand out than at a school where all of that is unknown. This was particularly true in my case, because at that point I already knew I wanted to pursue banking, and my current school, from a recruiting standpoint, probably wouldn't have closed any doors to me--my only trade up would've really been for the Ivy name brand and not for a very meaningful recruiting edge. Given that, I took his advice to heart and busted my ass all four years, got very good grades, and made a splash in the finance program and in other areas on campus. At the end of the day, I had a great time and had plenty of career options from which to choose once recruitment season rolled around. Never looked back.
Now, having interviewed plenty of kids, many of whom are from UVa, your buddy's in an excellent position from a recruiter's standpoint. If he's happy there, I'd say don't risk it all and wipe a very strong slate clean by moving to Wharton, even if they are a great school.
"that would be far better than sticking around with his crap non-target school."
Yea, NYU is REALLLLLLLL good.
Addendum, attaining a 3.97 and thus being top 5-10% of the class deserves more respect.
although uva is a target.... i would just for the wharton name....down the road...it will make a diff....
I agree in that aspect, but Grad trumps Ugrad entirely. If he enters Banking or PE than top grad school shouldn't be a problem.
This is a no brainer. Lots of banking opportunities plus a better college experience. UVa's sports, hot girls, laid back atmosphere can't be beat.
I would stay at UVA, where he will still have plenty of opportunities to go into banking, and he will actually be able to have fun in College.
As TexasIB said, UVA has hot girls, good sports, and a fun atmosphere. UPenn has none of that.
Why would anyone ever transfer from a quality school they enjoy just for a slightly better chance at banking? Or for a worse reason, "bc it might look better down the road"? College is way more than just career opportunities, 10 years from now the difference in schools wont matter at all. Tell your friend not to transfer its a horrible idea.
Agreed, it's not exactly community college-to-Columbia or something like that. Plus Upenn's crew team, though Ivy, is not particularly competitive (sorry if I'm offending anyone, but I own almost every Penn shirt I've rowed next to ...not getting more specific than that).
And I also gotta say, coming from a target, meeting "brilliant kids" ain't all it's cracked up to be. True genius doesn't necessarily make 'em sociable or friendly, and that's before you add money-grubbing and egotistical to the mix. Don't bail on a good thing for an ever-so-slightly better thing (in name only).
wow sternfox, you lose more respect everyday.
The way you put it it sounds as if he wants ANY reason to stay at UVA which I would in his situation. Happiness + a very solid chance at banking trumps unsure social life + excellent chance at banking.
HE SHOULD NOT leave UVA. He is going to Wharton for the name and network connections that he will gain along with a slightly better chance at ibanking.
He is ALREADY at a target school, in the top 5-10% with an incredible gpa, he has great work experience on his resume and an excellent shot at ibanking AS IT IS.
He can easily land a BB IBD gig and can quite easily leverage that along with his stellar gpa and resume from UVA to go to Harvard Business School or Wharton for his MBA.
Imagine if he went to Wharton and his gpa went down significantly to below a 3.3
He would clearly be worse off than where he was before.
He has an incredible situation going for him and to transfer to Wharton for the networking advantage and better name recognition especially when he is already doing extremely well at a target school like UVA not just gpa wise, but also in terms of extracurricular activities and current IB potential would be foolish.
He will easily clear the academic and work experience hurdle for any top 5 MBA program since I would be shocked if with his current position he did not gain at least 1 BB offer.
Stanford, Harvard, Wharton, Kellogg or MIT/Columbia (whatever you want to put as the 5th program), will definitely be viable options for him and as we know after those MBA programs you can pretty much go anywhere.
"easily" go to HBS? ha ha.
Seriously, people seem to get stuck on the whole "GPA" thing. All top MBA programs are hollistically processed, and undergrad GPA doesn't mean much at all especially since most have four years or more of work experience.
Eh, the thing that cracks me up about these responses is that about his stellar GPA UVA blah blah blah. You seem to forget that maybe 0.7% of all applications even get an interview.
What also cracks me up is the fact that most of you guys are obviously teenagers. The college you go to in Undergrad stays with you for life. Shallow as it sounds,it's the name of the school that you say when you meet people later on in life, not the GPA. When talking to a business associate at age 40, "I went to Wharton" sounds better than "I went to fucking UVA".
UVA is just another run of the mill school like NYU, Carnegie-mellon, etc.
Having a high GPA doesn't guarantee him a banking job, kids. That's only a fraction of what recruiters are looking for. There are many other variables.
When I went through recruiting at stern, I personally knew a few folks from stern scholars who didn't even get past first round. And this is at a target which is better than UVA. One guy had a 3.9, relevant majors, one banking internship, and still didn't make it. Another guy had a 3.6, JP BB summer, boutique, didn't make it either. They messed up on other factors, of course.
Secondly, his plan is to go work in Europe. Nobody in Europe knows what UVA is or gives a damn. It's all Ivy brand names there. Why should the london branches hire some yank from some college they've never heard of? They have plenty of pedigreed home-grown blokes they can choose from.
The name of your undergrad school stays with you for life more than the GPA in my opinion. Going to Wharton, paying the extra $ and averaging that perfect GPA into a much harder program will give this bloke an unfair advantage against his wharton peers since wharton kids suffer from grade deflation. I'm assuming this kid is entering his third year, right?
That means he has two semesters of Wharton to average into his GPA before recruiting time in senior year.
The worst he can do would be bring his GPA down to borderline 3.7.
Secondly, BB's regularily take two or three times more people from Wharton than semi-targets like UVA.
He'll get an interview with that GPA.
No one gives a f%ck what school you went to at 40.
Varsity crew and solid internships more or less guarantee he'll be getting first round interviews.
Yea, he'll get interviews. Will he get into the best bank? Will he get into Goldman, Lehmann, Morgan,or JP? Not so good if he sticks around at a semi like UVA....
The brand name of your school follows your ass around when you apply for MBA. Even at 40.
This kid has the chance to bring in a perfect GPA into the most competitive undergrad finance institution and deflate the competition. I wouldn't give that up.
The fact is, you kids aren't thinking long term. There is life after a two-year analyst slaveshop, children.
I think this point is just a generalization, at best. Even with a 4.0 at Wharton, if you can't interview well, you won't get the job. You may have a slight upperhand than someone from UVA with a 4.0 but that is not the issue of concern in this thread. The point I am making, is that although GPA does not guarantee a job by any means, it strongly assists you in getting the interview. Especially with a 3.97. This kid will get interviews with all of the BBs. If he doesn't get the job, it is because he screwed up the interview, but this would happen at Wharton as well.
This kid does not need to transfer. The connections you make at Wharton undergrad in my opinion don't even hold a candle to the connections you make at Graduate school. No offense to any Wharton ugrad's on this forum, but a high SAT score and good GPA in high school does notneccessarily translate into highly successful, intelligent people.
As for the argument about no one in Europe knowing of UVA, that argument is fairly weak as well. The BB's in Europe know of UVA and will definitely know of the BB internship this kid lands in New York during his Junior year at UVA.
is this even a contest? Transfer muthafucka.
Look, there is definitely debate as to whether UVA is a target - it's a good public - but homey please, Wharton IS the target. It is the shit that makes banking. It may be the best recruited in the world for banking.
You're also talking about an Ivy League education which DOES matter down the road. You've proven yourself at an academic level always. It's always there. The connections, the respect, the network.
Furthermore, forget GPA, you're also getting a way better education. He is clearly not being challenged at UVA (hence the 3.97), and would be WAY more challenged at Wharton than what is going on now. A GPA is important, but a kick-ass education is WAY more important - that's a fucking definite at Wharton.
Go for the best mate, why sell yourself short because you go to a semi-target when you can go to the best.
The MOST key point is Europe. No one outside of the US has heard of UVA. It may be a semi-target for the Lehman DCM desk in NYC, but fucking hell, he doesn't stand a chance in London with a UVA degree when all the cats here are Oxford and LSE. Wharton will make him a monster in Europe. And considering that is where he wants to work after graduating, he better god damn well transfer.
First of all, UVA has a great business school. The overall difference between an Ivy league education and excellent public school education is negligible.
With a 3.97 at UVA, he has more than proven himself academically. "Long term" UVA and then, in all likelyhood, an Ivy MBA is on Par with Penn and an Ivy MBA. The MBA is what will matter most.
He shouldn't have ANY problems getting interviews with all the top banks - all of them recruit at UVA.
Like TexasIB said - the girls (I bet he gets tons of hot ass since he's on the crew team, compare them with the mingers at Penn), sports and lifestyle don't even compare.
Dude, are you kidding? You think people outside the US have heard of UVA and/or Mcintyre?
Also, an MBA in europe means fuck all. And, I think he improves his chances by having monster references from a BB and a Wharton undergrad. Why do you think this doesn't matter. Pedigree matters.
And don't pull the girls shit. Penn State isn't that far and I'm sure he won't be worrying about that butter face sophmore he SO could've nailed on Virginia beach when he's pulling models and bottles in Manhattan/London.
Having tried to get into Europe from the US--Wharton or UVa, it will be pretty near impossible. Because of the visa laws, it's difficult to justify hiring an American bachelors degree holder who lives in the States. I was applying from a top target (HYPS) and put down London and NYC, HR always removed me from London as an option as I went through rounds.
If he really wants to come to London, he should stay at UVa and use the money he would have spent at Wharton to do a masters at LSE (I'd say Oxbridge but their courses are either hard core financial math or MBAs). He'll get into any good London job with that for sure.
BTW if you choose a school for the girls you are extremely stupid. Hot girls going to your school has nothing to do with whether or not they'll get with you. And if you're good looking, you'll be able to get hot girls at whatever school you're at, even if there's a smaller number of them.
I'm one of the few (it seems) females on this board and honestly, the crap you guys say about women is ridiculous. As though proximity to hot women means that you can have sex with them. 3.97 GPA--gonna take a guess he's not the biggest partier, plus he wants to "be around real intellectuals" at Wharton.
Most of the guys that post those things here are obviously virgins.
To my experience, being in a relationship generally causes things like GPAs to drop...
He's probably going to wind up in NYC anyways. Why should he drop an extra 60 grand for no reason. I'd bet my balls on him getting BB interviews out of UVA. I'm not suggesting he choose his school based on girls. I'm just saying that its a nice perk. While proximity to more girls doesn't equal surity, it sure as hell increases your chances ...
While he might not be the biggest "partier" on campus, he is on a varsity sports team at a huge public university, meaning that he probably has some soft skills and has a good time once in a while.
fp175,
I was surprised by your comment about visas - I was always under the impression that it was simple - certainly many people from outside the EU get visas so logically I thought that people with strong American links would have an easier time.
Having said this once you;ve got some experience visas are easily obtained....
The Home Office requires the employer to prove that no one with the appropriate skillset could be found in the entire EU to apply for a work permit. That's very difficult to prove if 1. you don't live in the UK 2. you've never lived in the UK and 3. you don't have a degree from a UK university.
Even if you've spent a year abroad in the UK, it's much easier to get a visa. But honestly, not only is it more work for HR to interview you and coordinate with the US office's HR (and you know HR don't like to do more work than necessary), there are so many graduates with the same or better skills in Europe, many of whom are bi- or tri-lingual.
I'm in the process of getting a UK work permit now--American citizen with a British degree. I've done a bit of research into it so I can guarantee you that this is pretty much how it is. The Americans working at banks in London meet one of the following criteria
1) studied in the UK 2) have dual citizenship with a European country 3) were transferred by their company
Haven't met a single American yet who just applied to the UK with no contacts and got in.
I beleive u ;-)
I had been told at final rounds that visas were easily obtained for people outside of the EU.... just off the top of my head I know a lot of Russians who have been given work visas though they do have british degrees - in fact I think anyone graduating now has a year to stay and find a job - so all of this is covered under point 1.
I always thought with ivy league grads it would be easy!
languages are way over valued by people looking for jobs - they aren't a huge asset except for a very small number of positions
Your school is great and GPA even better. To transfer would surely be a mistake. The risk of not doing as well and not enjoying Wharton far outweigh the upsides of the network and pedigree.
The point of junior year in college is not to enjoy it.....If you enjoyed college in junior year you must have seriously messed up or not reached your potential. It was the most miserable year for the vast majority of us.
Secondly, I doubt a 3.98 GPA athlete is frankly enjoying much of a social life.
thirdly, he has TWO semesters at Wharton. He could get an average of 3.15 at Wharton and still maintain a 3.7 total GPA. Not a bad deal at all. Do you have any idea what a 3.7 or higher at Wharton, no.1, means?
Not only do more and the most prestigious BB's recruit on Wharton, but the annual quota they take from Wharton is easily three times more than UVA. The reason of getting in Wharton is not only the long run pedigree and network, but the fact that this guy would get a shot at the best positions at the best banks.
If you didn't enjoy any one of your years in college, you seriously messed up.
He should should stay. It sounds like he is doing pretty well for himself at UVA. Transfering just for a better name is a mistake. With a GPA and resume like you described, he seems like a perfect candidate.
UVA is also way more fun than Wharton...
Not only do all BBs recruit at UVA, so does Blackstone, Lazard, and Greenhill. This guy is in the top 1% of UVA kids. If he can interview well, he'll be nailing offers with top boutiques along with GS/MS/Lehman/ML and other banks. There are not be as many alumni as Wharton, but the ones who do make it have loyalty to their school and are pretty damn successful. UVA/UMICH/UCB are great academic institutions with an awesome social life. Don't transfer dude.
BTW, UVA is much more respected school academically than NYU. NYU is full of people who couldn't get into Ivy League schools.
You clearly don't understand the recruiting process. A certain BB may take a dozen kids from Wharton, but at UVA? Maybe 3,4. Wharton is the no.1 banking recruitment place next to harvard. UVA is a non-factor.
Social life should not be a factor in his decision because he doesn't have much of one anyway.
NYU Stern is much higher ranked than UVA and regular NYU. I got into Colombia and Cornell BTW.
Looks like you made a bad decision on which college to attend
I can almost guarantee you if he tried to recruit in London, he would have a ridiculously tough time. Considering he has said he wants to work in europe, Wharton is the only school that makes sense.
Furthermore, fuck GPA - what about a quality education? You don't just go to harvard for the grade inflated grades - you go for the environmnent, the sick professors, and the connections.
You will get a better education at Wharton. Plain and simple. In the short run, it is expensive, but in the long run, it is really quite cheap. Those with degrees from big name schools will tell you the same.
He wants to work in Europe. That's one for Wharton. He wants to be around smarter people. That's another for Wharton.
Telling him he'll be fine at UVA misses the point. This guy will probably get a job for sure regardless of the school he goes to. The question is, he's hit the glass ceiling at UVA - he could also do VERY well at Wharton. Imagine being the top guy at Wharton?? Lehman would give you hand relief in your dorm room.
Remember, no one knows UVA outside the east coast - Wharton is fucking global and the best. Don't settle because you 'might' make it anyway.
Also, I'll be a complete asshole here. People will treat you differently if you go to Wharton. They respect you. You forget about the old boys network and the deals made over dinner and hanging with your old college buddy. It's VERY important that all his friends be in high places - that's how business is done. Any sell-side trader will tell you he more often than not has a buddy on the buy side and pulls business that way. When all your friends are in high places, you improve your added value ten fold.
Wharton in some ways can become more valuable AFTER you leave. This is non-existent at UVA.
Agreed.
Sternfox.
You have no idea what you are talking about. UVa has several summers in our BB SA class. You're right, it's no Harvard/Wharton, but being at the top of that pool, he shouldn't have a problem.
Although someone already took down your whole "interviewing" reason for going to Wharton, you clearly don't know how the transfer process works either. You don't carry your GPA in when you transfer, so he won't have any "advantage" over the other Wharton kids. He'll actually be at a disadvantage, cause he'll be starting from scratch taking upper level classes. Not the best way to keep a high GPA.
Clearly the decision is up to him, but your reasoning is flawed and your information is incorrect.
Tell me, how many Stern kids got into Goldman in your year? compare those numbers with those that got in from Wharton. UVA is even further in the bottom of the pile.
As for transferring process goes, I've seen resumes with mixed GPAs from two schools.
As being in an academic "disadvantage", a guy who regularly gets 4.00 at an ok school probably wouldn't have problems being a B+ student at Wharton.
As for the dumb comment, I chose Stern over Columbia and Cornell because 1. I didn't want to get a totally useless econ major 2. wanted to major in finance 3. wanted to be in the city etc.
I'm pleased with what I have since I've left.
This discussion might be getting a little off-topic and a little to personal. There are only a few things that I want to make a few comments on:
We have no idea what this kids social life is like. His friend says he likes UVA and is clearly doing well there, so to assume that his social life existence is fairly ignorant.
The emphasis everyone is putting on undergrad school is absurd. This kid is going to be successful at UVA or Wharton and can break into i-banking no problem at either school, assuming he doesn't mess up the interviews too horribly. He can go to Grad after that or wherever he wants, his work experience alone will be considered vastly more important than his undergraduate school. Once again, the way sternfox is slandering UVA is inaccurate. Although BBs do recruit more heavily from Wharton and Harvard, to call UVA a "non-factor" is beyond ridiculous.
Has anyone here considered that when he is interviewing, he will have to explain why he decided to leave a school that he enjoyed and was extremely successful at, to attend another one simply for the name. Ibank's appreciate drive/commitment but also loyalty. Believe it or not, they want SA's to stay for years and move up on the corporate ladder.
"Furthermore, fuck GPA - what about a quality education? You don't just go to harvard for the grade inflated grades - you go for the environmnent, the sick professors, and the connections. " I'd like to point out, that I would rather take a class taught by Damodaran (I believe you should be familiar with that name sternfox) than by any other teacher, at Harvard or Wharton. Don't let the prestige associated with these schools blind you from the actual quality of education they can provide.
Finally, as everyone is bored of my rambling, I will conclude with this. I have stated it before so will simply reiterate it. The connections at undergraduate Wharton are not that fantastic. These people may or may not be successful. These people may or may not be as motivated, driven, and hardworking as someone from semi or non-target school. In the end, you can't say that building a list of connection from undergraduate Wharton will give you a sustainable advantage.
Good post, but I disagree with several points.
2.Undergrad was the middle point of most of our education, but the POINT IS NOT IF he can break into I-banking, but If he can get a shot at the most prestigious analyst roles that would be CUT off for him at UVA. He probably won't get into Goldman through UVA but he might be able to do it through Wharton.
If you call it "slander", I disagree. When I went through recruiting, the majority of kids 3.4+ didn't make it. Many of them landed into RM, back office, etc. They ended up with positions that were not their ideal. That's life. UVA is even worse of a target than Stern, and his chances for a job he wants are more limited there.
No one has loyalty in finance anymore. Everybody knows it in all levels. Your point here is not a factor. Secondly, the kid's going to get booted after a 2-3 year stint anyway like most analysts. Drive and commitment at a school that is obviously too easy for him????
Wharton has a more varied curriculum than UVA.
Connections are what you make of them. But having a Wharton Undergrad brand with a stellar GPA stapled on your forehead is worth it if you are given the opportunity and served it on a silver platter.
That's patently untrue. Unless Morgan Stanley (5), Goldman (3), Lazard (3) and Blackstone (2) aren't good enough for you.
http://www.commerce.virginia.edu/career_services/CCS_Destination_Report… (scroll to page 8)
But I'd still go to Wharton. lol
You don't think whether someone likes the school they go to should be an issue when deciding whether or not to transfer??? You usually have pretty decent points but.....
We both aren't familiar with the curriculum at either of these schools, so let us not discuss something we do not know about. Even if Wharton is more "varied" variance is not always good. At my undergrad, I was furious that I had to take Anatomy, Physical Science, Philisophy, Literature etc. Wouldn't I be better served take a course dealing in finance or economics than any of those? This is not the point though. Variance in curriculum doesn't neccesarily leave one better prepared in ibanking.This I agree with. But deciding whether or not this kid's financial situation would be the equivalent of a silver platter is definitely up for debate. Also, he is already succeeding at UVA. I see very little incentive to switch.
Talk about loyalty to the CEO of an IB who started as an intern (can't remember exactly who this is right now, anyone feel free to fill in my blank). Someone who excels at something doesn't neccessarily mean that they are doing something to easy. I'm sure this kid works extremely hard to maintain this GPA.
I think the above post shows that his opportunities are not limited. Additionally, at my BB we recruited about 5 people from UVA for the SA position.
Apologies to all for typos and grammatical confusions as I wrote this from my PDA.
And UVA is University of Virignia. It's the first link you see when you google UVA.
Oh boy, this is a bad post.
Undergrad is ALL that matters in Europe. Considering he wants to work there (which everyone seems to be completely ignoring), using a US bias does not help your cause. Frankly, even in the US, with a Wharton undergrad, there are many jobs he could have where he wouldn't need an MBA. Much less so the case with UVA.
Simple answer to this: 'I wanted to challenge myself further.' Banks LOVE analysts who will push themselves and keep themselves uncomfortable. They will LOVE the passion and work ethic and the desire to move onwards and upwards.
Your damoradan point is utter nonsense. Stern is a target, but you're gonna have 50 damoradan types at Wharton, probably none at UVA.
How do you know about the connections at Wharton? Did you go there? Everyone with a decent degree will tell you how important connections to your classmates are. They will for the most part be all successful. That matters a lot in business. Your 'driven, hard-working business' is not also silly. You become more driven and more hard workign when you go to Wharton b/c everyone around you is smart. Furthermore, your undegrad will be with you on your CV for the rest of your life. And in the increasingly competitive banking environment, you need every advantage you can get.
Also, at any other point in your life would you choose UVA over Wharton. Say, in high school you had this choice, you'd pick Wharton in a second. Say you had a son, and he had to make the choice. You'd pick Wharton over UVA for him in a second. Say a friend asks you for advice on schools and says Wharton or UVA. You'd say Wharton. Why, all the sudden, at this instance, do you define logic and then pick UVA. This kind of thinking misses the big picture.
This kid will get a BB internship next summer with a BB as a SA assuming he doesn't mess up the interview process. With this on his resume, he can go to any BB in Europe. Deny it if you want, but it is the truth.
Let's be honest, banks don't draw that drastic of a distinction between a 3.97 at UVA and the 3.5 he would probably get at Wharton. If you think they do, explain why so many people at Wharton with 3.5's get turned down and so many at UVA with 3.8+ get accepted.
I on the other hand believe your counter point is "utter nonsense". As you are not personally familiar with the faculty at Wharton, UVA or Stern, I feel you are talking in areas where your knowledge is extremely limited.
The kids in UVA business school are smart, this kid is proof of that. Wharton kids might have worked harder in HS and had no social life. Isn't high GPA/SAT what is important for admissions there??? I know kids at Wharton who haven't done an internship going into their senior year. These kids are not going to be that successful. Compare the starting average salary of Wharton and UVA kids. Very small difference (check Business Week for actual amount)
And your last point is irrelevant. This kid is not making the initial choice between Wharton and UVA. He is at UVA, not Wharton. He is doing well there.
Sternfox- you seriously need to take a step back and look at yourself. You are going to an average school solely so you can get a "better" job out of high school.
Stern may have a very slight edge over Mcintire but I guarantee that there is less competition for BB IB jobs and he will get a better overall education at UVA than anyone could ever dream of at NYU.
Also: Econ. major is not useless, finance majors are useless, if anything. College isn't about pre-professionalism as much as you don't believe that it's true. I've said this before and I'll say it again, kids that majored in math or econ at Harvard, Columbia or even Cornell will be getting the same interviews you will and you will have no advantage over them with your finance degree.
That and the fact that you will have a sub-par liberal arts education and I think you will get an average education at Stern
You've never been to Stern. It's a good school and very highly ranked, 2nd in finance. It's no harvard or wharton in terms of recruitment, but I'm satisfied with what I got and learned after I graduated. I would have transfered to Wharton if I had the chance junior year though.
Secondly, you're a little boy. I love these random personal attacks, they are so amusing and nonsensical.
I am sorry but I have a dumb question: what does UVA mean? I searched wiki and came up with UVA: Ultraviolet A-rays with wavelength 400–320 nm. Please explain
Exactly.
Can you post a placement list for Stern? I've been looking for it but all I can find are the MBA ones...
I will cast my vote and say Wharton. There is something about being the best that can never be diminished. Better alumni network and a more helpful friend network? Sold.
On the surface it sounds like a very difficult decision... but it's not.
There's something to be said for personal resolve and gumption. Your friend sounds like he has his priorities aligned to do well no matter what. He's already accomplished what so many fail to do.
I agree with FP175 in the sense that the money could be used in the future either towards an MBA program abroad or a top 5 B-School in the US.
Knowing what I know now... this is what I would advise.
The wise sage.
Undergrad b-school ranking mean next to nothing. Those rankings are mostly full of shit anyway. I don't say that lightly.
1) Stern is ranked 7th, UVA is ranked 2nd after Wharton in BusinessWeek. Sorry sternfox. Wharton scores a 100 on the index, UVA scores a 98; doesn't really seem that big a difference. Stern is lagging at 85.
2) Indiana is ranked 4 places above WashU but WashU has a higher average SAT score by almost 300 points.
3) Most of the ranking status is about gaming the system. It is also funny that you say you wanted to study finance sternfox and not get some "useless" econ degree because any honest person who studies finance will tell it is something that you can easily learn on the job. Econ, engineering, science and other liberal arts teach you a lot more and give you a wider tool set than someone who studied DCFs for 4 years. As proof, consider that BBs get their largest numbers of analysts from schools that don't even have b-schools. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Columbia, Dartmouth, Chicago, Duke and others all send plenty of analysts, most of whom have never taken any finance classes of any kind. After their firm training, they are considered equal to all the double finance/accounting majors from Wharton etc. On the flip side, I doubt that your 4.0 finance major from Wharton could step in and be a civil engineer or a biomechanist.
Before you say, well BBs also take large numbers of finance majors from Wharton/UVA/Stern, keep in mind that is mainly because being a finance major indicates an interest in finance. The advantage of the finance degree itself is pretty much nullified with 3-4 months of working (compared to non-finance analysts).
I find this interesting how this whole discussion has moved toward attacking the relevancy of getting a finance degree in a finance job and stern, blah blah blah.
2.Stern has a highly ranked finance program which is the program that matters for Banking recruitment. It is weaker in other areas like marketing, management, etc. which frankly didn't bother me at the time since I had no intention with these fields. I did finance/CPA accounting with the intention of getting the CFA/CPA charters eventually.
"Econ, engineering, science and other liberal arts teach you a lot more and give you a wider tool set than someone who studied DCFs for 4 years."
Not in the field of .....FINANCE.....
Economics is totally useless, BTW. At least Engineering teaches you the quantitative skills to make a good trader, RM, etc.
Valuation is only one facet of Finance. Damomoradaran taught Investment Valuation at Stern, BTW. I 'm also interested in the field in general as well. There are course that were offered that provided good preparation for trading, risk management, etc.
"After their firm training, they are considered equal to all the double finance/accounting majors from Wharton etc"
Some will not on the pay scale. Hence not equal.
No, they lag behind for half a year after the two month training.
You seem to forget that there is more in life than one's monkey analyst two year post-college stint.
I have the ability with a CPA/CFA background to go into a wide variety of other fields in the industry and not only to perform the IBD skillset.
Moving buyside into HF, for instance, or becoming a quant.
And...I'm tired of repeating this dumb argument. A strong college education you can get for business is accounting/finance. Period.
So what exactly do you do? Are you an accountant/auditor?
So you are telling me that your accounting and financial analysis skills will enable you to be a quant? Do you know what quants do? Just because you can solve black scholes doesn't mean you are a quant buddy. Nowadays, the high-freq trading desks or the structured product desks use high level statistical and scientific tools that are generally learnt in grad school. Certainly you can move to the buyside....not as a quant.
You didn't refute my argument; anyway, someone else can weigh in if they want. I may be biased because I was an economics major. Also I don't think rationality will work with sternfox, who seems hellbent on defending Stern and finance.
You didn't have an argument to begin with. You just went off on an anti-finance thing again. I think this the second time we've gone through this?
I've brought up valid points. Recruiting for BB at Stern is stronger.
people know wharton in europe, but not that many know what McIntire is.
I assume my views of UVA are much different from most since I've interacted with many bright UVA alums and the school has a strong reputation in my corner of the hf world. For me, there really isn't a difference between the quality of top students at both school.
Feel free to disagree with me, but your view of both schools will converge over time as you work with alums from both schools.
On a side note, the kid has no chance of doing Eurpoean PE straight out of undergrad regardless of school.
ok, so the kid probably has to decide soon. whats he thinking?
sorry for trying to get this thread back on track...
Thanks for the insightful comments, guys.
My buddy parties a lot, actually. C'mon, who on crew team doesn't party? He just manages his time fairly well.
when does he have to let wharton know? a couple of weeks right?
You don't read very well Ratul... you also seem to be taking these comments extremely personally.
Don't playa hate.
On a serious note, you are advocating a school in Virginia over Wharton. Let's think clearly now about who has comprehension problems.
Go to Wharton - very simple. Better classes, better profs, better network, connections, pedigree and training.
why dont you guys get back to the point? whats he going to do?
I just wanted to put some closure on this thread.
Thank you for all your input. It was very helpful and entertaining.
go to wharton get a 3.8. network, at worst get a job at GS . Thats a great fall back plan
...
Staying at UVA was a tough choice that worked out really well. I couldn't be happier with my academic, extracurricular, and social lives. To end all the speculation about internship placement, I'm excited to be going to Lazard this summer.
haha what?
I was reading the comments for a while before realizing its an old post.. glad you made the good decision..
If you really want to go into Europe, try to do got study abroad in LSE or Oxford.. they are recruited heavily for banking jobs in Europe..
Ling~
Wharton sounds like a school full of terribly boring people who spend what should be the best 4 years of their lives using people as springboards to a banking career.
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