Is London as much of a mess as I think it is? - Next 2-5 years
I have lived in London my whole life, and it is clear that it has been in massive decline for such a long time now. Immigration - both legal and illegal - is rampant, and knife crime, and general crime, is unreal.
The UK is importing the worst kinds of migrants, which don't seem to have any care in the world for British values, while the government welcomes them all in with open arms.
There are more problems I can go into but I want to know how you Brits feel about everything. Do you guys foresee things improving in the next 2–5 years, or am I just being generally overly pessimistic?
Cheers!
While some of what you say has merit, you are being overly pessimistic and should probably stop reading the Daily Mail so much.
I don't really care if things improve, none of what you describe has ever affected me. But no, I don't think things improve. There is no catalyst to stop whatever inertia is causing the trends you're describing.
One thing though, if London can give more late night licenses to drinking venues, that would be great!
You don't really care if things improve!? WTF is wrong with you, dude!?
"Who cares as long as I can drink more"
What is wrong with you.
What benefit do I get out of caring if none of this has ever affected me? Just misery?
I'm good thanks.
However bad you think it is, it's 100x worse. I have 6 friends in London - 1 in RE, 2 in HF (both Brits), 2 PE/VC, 1 IB. All of them are desperate to GTFO and come to the US or move out to work in APAC. The posh British illusion of working in the Wharf is long dead. The COL relative to amenities is absolutely horrendous and makes NYC look perfectly reasonable by comparison, especially when you recognize you both make less AND are taxed more. The city is filthy and overrun with 3rd worlders of the worst kind that will just randomly assault people and follow around women without any sort of police intervention. Say the wrong thing (anything innocuous that offends anyone) on X or in public and the police can just show up at your door or stop you then & there to arrest you. Keir Starmer and the leaders of Labour deserve to rot in the tower for what they've done to the UK and the Tories aren't much different.
There is no universe in which things improve in the next 2-5 years. If anything they're going to keep getting worse. Personally I think they're past the point of no return on this one given ethnic British are a minority in London and British/Irish/Scotts are increasingly trending that way in every other major population center across the country. Import the 3rd world and you become the 3rd world. The people who disagree with this either haven't been to the UK enough to see the stark change in just the past 10-15 years or are deluding themselves on what it looks like when a country is experiencing rapid demographic change.
Few things are as repulsive as walking through multiple streets in London and having my sense of smell brutally assaulted without hearing a word of English, just Arabic and Punjabi.
The UK loves Indian food so much that the best curry i've had was at an Irish pub in Marylebone.
Sounds like you can only understand...one language? If other languages are repulsive to you I suggest you go somewhere else.
"Ethnic British"
lol
Despite Netflix's attempts to assert otherwise in their historical dramas, some countries have always been ethnically white. The UK was over 90% white as recently as the 1990s. Pretty impressive how much can change in ~30 years.
Ahahahahahaha
Labour have been in power for 9 months lol. They didn't cause this.
If you think this is a problem that only started in the last 9 months I'd love to know what pocket universe detached from the rest of reality you call home. Sounds cozy.
Edit: To be clear - I did not only blame Labour, I clearly said that the Tories are essentially no different. The only difference being that at least some Tories openly dissent with the overarching support of mass migration vs you will be hard pressed to find any popular figures amongst Labour who are vociferously anti-immigrant.
Tony Blair was one of the first to open the floodgates. It continued since then. All parties are at fault and none worth voting for. Don't know what to do. Haven't bothered to vote in maybe a decade other than the odd protest vote. Doesn't matter since in massive labour council.
Greetings from FFM. While our immigration is heading towards the same dimension, at least living here and saving some money is possible.
Oh boy, you have never taken the NY subway.
I used to live in NY and take it every day. It's disgusting and has many of it's own issues (I've made no effort to disguise my contempt for NYC), but I would rather be in NYC vs LDN 10/10 times given the choice.
This comment is wildly out of touch with reality. Moved from NYC to London. London is cleaner, safer, and equal if not cheaper.
I pay less in taxes in London (people seem to forget that NYC has federal, state and city taxes plus property taxes if you’re lucky enough to own).
Crime and overall safety vibes in London are 100x better than NYC. But of course like any city it depends where you live. If you live anywhere Zone1/2 in London then you are unlikely to see a fight, stabbing or homeless nutcase. I’ve seen all of the above multiple times in high-end areas of NYC (west village, UES), in addition to the alerts to gunshots within my vicinity. In NYC you simply cannot avoid the crazy aggressive drug riddled homeless problem. Ffs, had someone get lit on fire on the subway a few months ago… just another day in NYC.
London is cleaner. In NYC there is a distinct summertime smell from the sewer and piles of trash on every street. That simply is not the case in most of London. The tube is not even comparable tot he subway in terms of cleanliness and effectiveness.
Overall, London is a far more civilized city.
100% facts. There are higher powers who are orchestrating illegal migration to also divide and conquer Britain. It's all deliberate and if you can't see it, may god help you. IF you have the money, move to China, Singapore or another country that isn't full of third worlders and actually has strict laws. Next 15 years in the UK will include more illegal immigration, more crime, more useless police arresting people over nothing, more fear mongering about the fake Russian/Chinese threat, more anti-White laws, more benefits to lazy people, and shit economic policy. Just because you live in Mayfair, doesnt make you immune to the shithole London is. Living in a tiny enclave of wealth is not worth it when you're surrounded by moped gangs, thieves, homeless people, druggies and a shitty police force who do fuck all.
I find it quite amusing that you’re using China and Singapore as places to move to that are examples of “how to do things properly”, while (a) there are so many complaints about the Chinese buying up London, and (b) Singapore’s strengths were founded upon immigration from “the third world”, often of low skilled labourers.
Same goes for the folks that moan about the Arabs in London then go to Dubai.
London has a lot of immigrants, no doubt. The most successful cities in the world do, and it’s not just a European thing.
There is zero chance you have six friends, let alone in another country.
As usual you can't argue with any substance so having to resort to childish personal attacks, how on-brand.
Always funny when "first-worlders" who don't make it blame immigrants and the "left" for their misery... Butit's alright and not part of the problem when your landlord charges you GPB 3k for a 35sqm studio and doubles rent to the bar next door which as a consequence nowadays charges you GPB 9/10 for a pint and 17 for a cocktail... And when your salary does not increase in the same pace as inflation does, because your Bank or "Boutique" is cost-cutting, out-sourcing, or however you want to call it, it's also the immigrants and the left - especially so in an anonymous forum like WSO. Another fun fact - people like you complain about that in almost every major city on earth. Have a good trip!
I totally agree. I got attacked by two of them in London once!
The culuture that the Brits pride themselves on is what is disappearing. This honestly has little to do with the immigration and the two and three tier society that it is creating. In reality it is the capital flight that is the issue. The UK is losing some insane amount of millionaires per day that are eroding the tax base at an astounding rate.
ditto
no one stays in the UK because of the weather, and even less will stay with the tax changes they've been doing lately
agree also with GME's comment above, UK's golden years of being a finance professional aren't fully gone, but aren't what they used to be
Any idea where they are going (US, Singapore, ME, etc)?
All over honestly. I would say commonwealth countries and the US are the most common but the flight is so large that they are ending up all over the world.
Largely ME
.
You'll have to accept the American takes because any Brit who comments on the issue risks having a constable show up at the door asking to see their WSO Commenting loicense.
Sadly true. In 2023, The Times reported that UK police made approximately 12,183 arrests under Section 127 of the Communications Act 2003. According to Grok (admittedly more questionable) in Russia it was approximately 500-1000 per year. What a crazy time to be alive lol.
Hahahahaha SB’d because I laughed out loud at this. But, don’t worry, we don’t truly have freedom of speech here (in the U.S.) either … it’s just that the pressure to “behave” is social/implicit. You won’t be arrested, but you will be “cancelled” / ostracized from “polite society.”
What a wild society, UK and Canada are really going down the drain. Again a net pos for the U.S. as the best & brightest will increasingly move here as in comparison it's just much better.
The one pos these other countries had was better quality of life, if even that is degrading (crime, leftist governments, etc) then the entire value prop goes broke
Finally a reasonable comment. The UK isn't a country but an elderly care system attached to a state. Either the retirement age is raised to 75-80 (yes some people must die before hitting that age) or you ration lifesaving care to the elderly (a valid way to reduce NHS costs).
Short answer yes, in a mess, worst thing is that there's no catalyst or positive upside for London or even the rest of the UK
Agree with a lot that's said here and in general from a lot of commenters here so thank you!
The point you made on identity crisis is very important I think. In my workplace, one of the teams that manages the building left dates for those celebrating Eid a few weeks ago, but nobody left anything for those celebrating Easter this week.
This may seem insignificant to some but shows the change in minds and cultural shit in the UK, which is quite sad.
This is a positive for the U.S. actually. The best Brits who care about innovation / wealth accretion / R&D / etc will be more inclining to move to America. There are other decent places in Europe, but non that even come close to the innovation we have in the U.S.
It's also better for the U.S. in that Republicans can point to the UK failures as to what happens when you give the Dems power
"Farage wanting closed borders" "pragmatic view should be that immigration has been too high in the last decade". So unvetted immigration for over 10 years and the extreme view is Farage wanting the borders closed?
I don't think Farage is as extreme as he used to be, but also the overton window has shifted and its mainstream. Imo any self-respecting sovereign democracy should have control of its borders. Main issue is that the online right and populists to the right of farage are so hell-bent and fetishes deportations and strong borders which alienates a lot of centrist voters. I think there;s a way of communicating that immigration has been way too high (not all immigration is bad), but the level is unsustainable for both domestic labour markets and cultural assimilation. but completely closed borders would mean you can't fix the labour market gaps w an ageing population, you'd have a run on the pound and the central bank would have to intervene and hike rates up. Its important to emphaise quality of immigration, the UK needs and wants doctors, engineers, tech workers etc that will boost productivity and economic growth WHILST making sure the people we import subscribe to certain elements of british culture and that the UK in turn will be tolerant for respecting different cultures (rather than it being enforced). allowing high levels of immigration with net fiscal costs of social housing, benefits etc that has happened is silly, but they way to phrase the argument has to be delicate
So much anti-immigrant hysteria on this site, it's insane. Get out more. Vast majority of the immigrants in London are 2x more productive than the average Brit in the rest of the country, who are some of the laziest people in the world.
London isn't exactly thriving at the moment, but it's still doing well and no worse than most other European cities. Plus getting closer to Europe, avoiding most Trump tariffs makes me pretty bullish on the UK over the next 10 years or so.
Haha, sure buddy. “Productive” meaning setting up a new kebab shop with unsanitary conditions and child labor next door to a kebab shop and a hookah parlor, and across the street from a shitty convenience store and two more kebab shops.
Brits are so pathetic and pear shaped that they absolutely deserve all this and more. Hope the country is run by a caliphate within 20 years.
For every immigrant running a kebab shop, there's someone working in the City. The firm I'm working at would collapse if it didn't have immigrants.
Just no. The idea that anyone on this website knows any imigrants from the "vast majority" is a fucking laugh. The vast majority of people are average at best. Can people be productive? Sure, but to act like the vast majority of migrants are twice as productive as citizens is an isane take.
The increasing burden of taxes (incl. NI and non-dom abolishment, property tax), massive cost of childcare (VAT increase and non-existing tax relief paying nanny salaries) and "against" business attitude is certainly taking its toll. While not representative, my sample size of UHNW friends leaving London is high and that's a real shame as the entrepreneurial and global spirit in London has been pretty high in all my 15 years living here and the calibre of people in my circles has been astonishingly high (wont find the same in any other European city by a long shot in my view)
Crime fluctuates over time, knife crime has been high in the past then come down and high again now. Watch theft has come down a bit (mostly because nobody is wearing a watch) and phone theft is way too high atm. This might get better over time but for now there is no appropriate tackling of these issues, especially with the current mayor of London (some of the police spending is not up to the mayor obviously but cuts have been rampant all over) and the left / liberal government approach to everything. Change could happen but only will happen if things get really bad and voter opinion is changing. Agreed re: pensions etc. unfortunately most European demographics are terrible
That said, if you have money you can live a very sheltered, high quality life in London and basically be oblivious to a lot of these issues (realize that is not the case for most people). The quality of restaurants remains very high, service quality is good, shopping is excellent, private education is good, private healthcare is good, private member clubs provide great evening entertainment, countryside provides great hotels / estates and Heathrow is super well connected to head to Switzerland or South of France regularly. The same can probably be said about other European cities by none of them are as cosmopolitan as London (no way I would move to FFM over London ever)
Where are they moving?
Moving mostly for tax reasons. Non-dom or not having ability to shelter off-shore money is a big driver (and brought many of these people here in the first place). They obviously also mention crime (more of an excuse I think because they have not been affected). Moving either to Milan or Dubai
this tracks with my circle too, unfortunately. A couple have gone to Switzerland and those that can get to transfers to the US are in the process of doing so. My question is what are the downstream consequences of this? If anecdotally we know people are leaving, coupled with the highest number of millionaires per capita exiting the country worldwide where does this end?
Devils advocate on your last point, London living is great but there is no doubt an increase in random crime particularly in the more exclusive areas of the city. I can't comment on if schooling is still what it once was, and the elites will always be sheltered in that sense, but regardless if you live in Belgravia, Chelsea, or Knightsbirdge - you will have noticed the random groups of men circling clubs, restaurants and venues late into the eve. Largely tracks with the data on closing of many restaurants and nightclubs.
Yes, we have seen the guys around - fortunately have not had any issues so far. They are masked up oftentimes, on bikes even in the middle of the day (mostly to do petty crime like stealing phones or watches). Haven't really noticed any issues outside venues in the evening but you have to be more vigilant these days. That said, this seems to have increased post Covid in a lot of places and is not a London specific problem. In Milan for example have had multiple friends getting broken into their cars or robbed of high value items even during the day. NYC crime has also increased for sure, subway etc. Paris has been bad for a while and has gotten worse (also a lot of watch theft) and Ibiza and other higher end destinations have seen a lot more issues (house break-ins, watch theft outside restaurants etc.). Switzerland remains safe
You haven’t made a single good argument in your post. I think you read the newspapers too much.
Immigration is rampant ? So is there more immigration now than before Brexit? Don’t think so and besides, immigration is largely limited to London and is what makes London, well, London.
Re: crime, don’t think it’s particularly dangerous if you live in nice areas (Paris and NYC feel less safe for example).
Re: COL - yeah it’s terrible and impossible to leave correctly with less than £100k. Taxes are horrendous. Cost of kids is a complete joke and so are tuition costs.
All in all great city but excruciatingly expensive.
Do you really believe the numbers coming in before brexit are the same as after? We've swapped EU nationals for low-skilled International workers. This data likely underreports the impact as it doesnt account for illegals and the incompetence of the ONS.
Political shitslinging aside, both those on the right and the left have formed consensus view on immigration and it's net drain on the country. It's upstream of all other issues including the growing welfare state, crumbling NHS, atrophying culture as well as much more.
This issue is perpetuated by a culture of demonising success, persecuting business and a general tall poppy syndrome that is pervasive across the UK. Those of us living in Zone 1 / 2 may feel somewhat incubated from the demise but for me it's really accelerated post 2020. Find a British city where there hasn't been a rise in Turkish Barbers and Vape Shops at the expense of pubs and local businesses. Many productive brits have upped and left, and those staying are largely doing so because they have to (roots down) or are simply in the 0.1% that doesn't feel the strain on every day life.
Future wise - it will get worse before it gets better. As commenters above have eluded to, weekly demonstrations and social tensions appear to be the norm. Southport riots felt like a flicker of what's to come, especially in many northern towns devoid of hope, unity and opportunity.
One side note, i'm surprised some above have commented that the string of issues haven't yet affected them. I've close friends who've had their phones snatched, by bikers and at knife point, as well as growing concerns around staying out late that weren't as pertinent pre-2020. Crime, social decay, growth prospects have all escalated negatively and unfortunately I don't see a way it improves soon. Kudos to those of you staying and fighting - many have left and will continue to do so, and I for one don't blame them
Immigration is literally destroying Europe. London is just one step ahead, but development is the same in most cities... look at Berlin and Paris...
Euros 100% deserve it and more.
London and more largely the UK are going to shite because of the self-inflicted wound that is Brexit. First country in the world to impose economic sanctions on itself. Seems that Trump decided to replicate the same shite.
I genuinely believe that we are, in real time, experiencing the inevitable collapse of the historically infamous Great Britain and our nation’s downfall will be studied one day.
In The Big Short, Mark Baum (Steve Eisman) said to Jarred Vennett (Greg Lippmann) “everyone’s asleep at the wheel?” when the global financial crisis was just around the corner. With this particular Labour government (not labour hating btw) in power for the next 4 years there is not enough time to unwind the damage that has already been done. I am fully convinced that the Labour of today have no idea what they are doing and are indeed asleep at the wheel.
To finalise my point: the chancellor of our entire country blatantly and completely lied on her cv, got caught, and was allowed to KEEP her job. And to top it all off her previous job couldn’t have been less related to the current position she holds, nice to know our countries finances and future is managed by “Rachel from accounts”!!!!
Rant over lmao sorry but the lack of incompetence in power baffles me.
I think this is spot on. Have you seen David Betz doing the podcast rounds of late? PhD from KCL talking about how Britain is the most ripe out of many countries worldwide for civil war...
The internal conflict of our country is insane, and starmer is literally on the side against the British. I haven’t seen those podcasts but I’m definitely going to give them a watch so thanks for that
Haven’t the conservatives been in power for like 14 years and oversaw this pretty noticeable economic stagnation and nothing except make it worse? How’s it labour’s fault? ☠️
I'm staying for 5 more years and then i'm out. It's a shithole. The government hates white people and is actively trying to wage a divide and conquer strategy. Crime doesn't get solved. The police are useless. Leave if you can.
Frankly the best thing that can be said about this is it is poetic justice — basically a self induced reverse conquest given Britain screwed most of the world for centuries. The hilarious thing is they are doing it to themselves! So I have no sympathy
I agree with you in many ways because the UK invaded countries, messed up the Middle East (and the resultant immigration disaster) etc so they brought this on themselves. However, it's a disgrace that the generation born from 1999 onwards have to put up with this shit when we didn't even vote for it.
Most of Africa at that time didn’t even have countries.
London is a disaster,,, until you consider the next best alternative
NY is a dump. I like living in Greenwich but the commute is crushing and the city is like a girl that used to be the best looking broad in the world but has aged beyond recognition
HK was amazing but is basically China
Singapore’s financial sector is the size of Paris. The Asian decade has started like a ton of bricks
Dubai is hella regional
Lol @ Paris
I want to die before I visit Frankfurt
You can’t be a man and live in California
London is the only truly global financial center. That hasn’t mattered much in the past decade given the US dominance of the financial markets in that time but nothing lasts forever.
It’s also the best place to live in the world if you have the money. Most people complaining here don’t have the money.
From NY. Lived in HK and London, Back in NY.
Spot on. I would add a few alternatives for the lucky few in Milan and even Copenhagen.
Milan, yes.
It sounds like you're grappling with concerns about London's future, especially in terms of crime and immigration. It's understandable to feel uncertain given some of the issues you've raised. While there are real challenges, London’s adaptability, ongoing development projects, and efforts by local authorities to address crime and integration suggest some hope for improvement. However, how much change occurs in the next 2-5 years remains to be seen.
I am an American who has lived in London for a few years. Before that, I worked in NY for 10-15 years and grew up in a non-NY major East Coast city. I don't have all the context on how London has evolved over the past few decades in the same way as Brits do so best I can do is offer my perspective as an expat here and comparing it to alternatives.
I have zero regrets moving here, find myself frustrated by London on a daily basis, but can also not think of a better alternative in terms of where to live / work. This city somehow has no rough edges - compared to a place like NY - yet is somehow plagued by targeted crime against rich people in a way that is radically different than NY. It is undoubtedly a better social experience for someone in their 30s / 40s than NY, because people work to live rather than live to work. It is close to where you want to ski in the winter and spend time in the sun in the Summer yet also the worst weather on Earth for half of the year. The cost of living is infuriatingly high on every dimension in everyday life except for real estate / rent (the main cost in life) when compared to NY or major Asia finance hubs. It is a very complex netting exercise in pros and cons in most dimensions.
I find Brits to hate on London more than makes sense to me. There are only three cities in the world where I would ever have a primary residence - London, NY, and LA. And I think London is probably marginally on top at the moment and will continue to be for a bit for someone at my age (late 30s / early 40s) and circumstances (married, no children).
What about Sydney?
What do we think about Geneva? Seems like London without the crime and migrants
Has no tech / VC, and is incredibly dull nightlife wise compared to London.
Geneva is a bit of dump and certainly also has its crime issues. That paired with the French angle and being dead on the weekends makes it not that attractive....Yeah beautiful scenery but I doubt you would move there over London
I was debating the same, despite all the complaining, what would be a viable alternative city to live in for us.
Other than London its probably only Miami, Singapore, Zurich (much better than Geneva but much slower than London) or Monaco (unlikely with a family given the constraints on real estate there). Never been to Sydney but its just too far away from Europe
We struggle to seriously consider moving to the UAE (culture, education etc.)
South London is an extension of Nigeria and Somalia and Pakistani/Punjab. 0 Redeeming aspects like the lands of the "Brits" that inhabit it.
Imagine the smell
Any thoughts on the new Migrant Hotel opening in Canary Wharf for those who work in the region?? (Hotel Britannia's residents/stayers have been completely replaced by refugees and asylum seekers over the past 48hrs - c.550 rooms given to these people, costing the tax payer millions a year, while also eroding the value of the region) - any general thoughts on this?
London is really f'ed up
I've left the country since initially commenting on this thread, one of the last in my circle to do so. The country is quite clearly in a downwards spiral and on its way towards ethnic conflict. I hope for the sake of friends left it gets its act together, but the introduction of the Online Safety Act, the Epping riots and mainstream media's consistent refusal to show what is happening on the ground is only fuelling anger and public resentment. Who knows how this plays out, but I can guarantee things will have to get worse before they begin to get better
plz name gone areas and nationalities causing it
Aut aliquam ut dolorum eveniet ut voluptatem ipsum. Culpa totam quae in eius. Libero occaecati consequatur voluptatem laboriosam aut in in voluptate. Dolorum quia saepe voluptas dolore. Ratione debitis eum est. In vitae deserunt sit quia nisi ut.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Ea placeat adipisci voluptas tempore harum quibusdam. Tempora eveniet non eligendi nisi quas voluptatem. Doloribus et dolores vero laudantium sit illum et. Deserunt doloribus eos optio. Quam vero totam occaecati dolorem voluptatem labore.
Quo quos voluptas earum facere tempore consectetur magnam. Incidunt at quo est dicta error autem. Et rerum expedita omnis omnis quia earum eum veritatis. Iusto ut accusantium aut voluptatem. Veniam totam illum voluptatem voluptatibus. Pariatur natus earum tenetur. Itaque eveniet eos dolores optio saepe.
Alias accusamus praesentium aut vero qui. Maiores enim sit porro velit aliquam et ex magnam. Ut inventore et perspiciatis dolores voluptatem saepe incidunt consequatur. Debitis qui quod natus cupiditate ratione sequi iste error. Ipsam ea laboriosam nam voluptatem alias modi.
Similique temporibus illum numquam. Ullam nobis consequatur esse. Accusantium temporibus accusamus et laborum exercitationem sed. A pariatur odio sapiente quibusdam non. Laudantium nihil eaque repudiandae occaecati aut. Aut a id consequatur quia enim. Qui tenetur explicabo debitis.
Voluptates neque iure optio rerum harum reiciendis. Minus excepturi reiciendis asperiores fugiat. Officia voluptas consequatur voluptatem. Illo perferendis et est.
Voluptas qui ullam vero. Est ratione quam repellendus tempore nemo libero. Expedita fugit consequatur sit est sed inventore sint. Suscipit voluptas ut dolores aut.
Sit illum sunt commodi hic possimus. Perferendis repudiandae ducimus et sint et dolores. Fugit aliquam quod iure aliquam neque vitae reprehenderit.
Maxime atque atque dolorem qui. Qui et exercitationem assumenda ut aliquam ipsam ea praesentium.
Illo cum rerum dolorem. Ab blanditiis at dolores ducimus architecto animi non quas. Possimus error in est perspiciatis sunt.
Quaerat reiciendis ratione sed recusandae. Debitis incidunt neque magni maiores sunt ut. Voluptatem debitis quia harum quis provident. Quibusdam ex dolores minima amet in.
Et debitis dolor iste et. Praesentium maxime minima quibusdam nostrum exercitationem et. Dolores tempora reprehenderit repudiandae enim mollitia suscipit rerum.