Where Do You Put Your Short-Term Savings?
As the title suggests, I'm curious to see where the monkeys of WSO are allocating their savings. I just finished my first year as an analyst and having some difficulty choosing how where to put my disretionary savings. I started out saving very aggressively for retirement (think 15% to Roth and 401k), just reached my safety net goal and now want to establish some general savings for future vacations, home purchase etc. I'm hesitant to throw them into index funds given how expensive equities are, but feel like letting them sit in a MM account would be wasteful. I don't consider myself skilled enough to select specific stocks so I tend to prefer ETFs and Indexes, but I have considered purchasing a few larger, high dividend blue chips as an alternative. Either that or treasuries which I do think are currently underpriced.
Again, these aren't necessarily long term savings, more for larger purchases and general flexibility within 5-10 years. What do the personal finance gurus of WSO think?
An ETF is composed of a series of industry stocks, so the only true way to know the price of an ETF is to look at the design and contents of the ETF, then value every single stock. Alternatively, you could look at the industry ETF and speculate whether it seems reasonable based on market multiples. ETF's are passive, meant for longer term outlooks.
Warren B is also a billionaire who has different goals and better advantages. Also, remember Buffet looks at companies that pay dividends, are financially strong, sell a good product in a strong demanding market, and are undervalued. Your investment decisions depend on your goals, solely. To generalize everyone's investment goals would be wrong. Your 100k could be better off in a FI account, it's all relevant. If you want to maintain the value of the money and hedge for inflation changes, then FI sounds reasonable - both investment grade and treasury. If you're up for more risk high-yield can be a nice addition.
Why not both, cap. app. and FI? Again, it all depends. Sit down and evaluate your long term goals. Do you have time to constantly track your own portfolio? Are you risk loving or risk averse? Maybe some sort of diversification between CA stock and FI would be best. Both have pros and cons (tax advantages/disadvantages, risk, etc.)
ETFs are generally priced fairly based on the underlying, especially when they are liquid, because of the role of the authorized purchaser.
This paper goes into detail on how ETFs operate from a mechanical and legal/tax perspective. Good read if you want to understand the guts of the security you're buying:
https://www.ici.org/pdf/per20-05.pdf
Suffice to say that the authorized purchaser is the entity contracted by the sponsor of the ETF to manage creation and redemption of ETF shares. Essentially, when an ETF is trading above its NAV, the AP's go into the markets, purchase the underlying, and create more ETFs. They sell those into the market, booking a profit and bringing the price of the ETF back down to that of the underlying. Conversely, when an ETF is trading below NAV, the AP will purchase ETFs on the open market and redeem them for the underlying, and then sell the underlying, booking the spread as profit. It is therefore essentially an arbitrage mechanism that ensures ETFs are trading in line with their underlying.
Note to anyone getting involved in ETFs: you may have recently noticed levered ETFs hitting the market. Before getting involved with these for anything other than extremely short-term trades, you should read up on the concept of beta slippage, as these levered products will trade out of step with their underlying over the course of time.
I keep mine in bearer bonds under my mattress
If a MM is wasting money then those savings aren't really "short term"
I use wealthfront, it automatically diversifies it for you and the first $10,000 is fee free. After that it's a 0.25% fixed fee on your average balance. It generally uses different Vanguard ETFs. (It's a robo-advisor), however the minimum deposit is $500, and to get the benefit of tax-loss harvesting you need $5000. I use it for four reasons
I'd recommend googling it a bit to see if it's something you'd like. and if so PM me I can refer you and we both get an additional $5k allowance managed fee free!
USE CODE TIMFERRIS TO GET A FREE MUG
Not bashing your post but it can't sell a stock at a loss and buy something back to gain a tax advantage unless it waits 30 days. At which point the tax advantage gained might be outweighed by the loss of growth. This is called the wash sale rule. See here for details: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/washsalerule.asp
Praesto That's not entirely true. You are certainly permitted to sell a stock and buy something else, as long as it does not look like you are attempting to gain a tax advantage. My understanding of what Wealthfront does is, after selling a stock/etf, find another stock whose performance is very correlated with the just-sold one, yet won't trigger the IRS to come knocking.
For short term, I use an Ally Online Savings account. I earn 1.20% a year, which isn't great, but it's a savings fund so I'm not running the risk of potentially losing a big chunk of it.
Have $80k in savings. Where to put it? (Originally Posted: 10/15/2014)
Work in London and currently have about $80k's worth of savings from my first year as analyst in IB.
Dont want to leave it in the bank as nominal returns are too low (and real returns are currently negative), and not interested in buying property or making any retirement contributions right now.
I was thinking funds, but had some money in a small-cap fund that basically did nothing for a year, so not sure what best strategy (eg. asset class/sector/geography) is to allocate my capital.
My appetite for risk is quite high, and if there was some sort of hedge fund structure out there t for retail investors, that would probably be right up my street.
So what should I do with it?
Funny, got two calls today asking the same thing.
I'd say that you should keep 50k EMF (emergency fund). The rest there are better answers here for that.
$80k in post-tax savings is insane for a first year analyst. Did you eat or rent an apartment?
Might be at a non-NYC location?
Clearly OP lives with his parents.
$80k after one year of banking.... You must be a miserable person
Clearly OP is no fun. Who saves $80,000 in one year of banking at the analyst level?
Invest in some index fund dude and forget about it.
I think you should invest the $80k in the TwoThrones scholarship. Basically, I need that money if I get into an MBA program next year.
Saving $80k in your first year in London is impossible. I have been there, and it is just impossible. Even if you hide under a rock, reheat the foot you got from your allowance and never go out, it is just not possible.
Lol @ $80 savings after 1 year. Even if you didn't spend a single fucking pound you'd still have less than that because of taxes.
But anyway, I don't really care how you got the money. In terms of investing it, if like risk, there must be some high beta funds out there. And since you're still very young it also makes sense to go for more risky investments. Look for high-beta, they must be out there. If not, EM is always a rollercoaster, or even worse frontier markets such as Nigeria or Turkey offer quite the spectacle.
shameless plug
if you have an emergency fund taken care of, max your retirement savings until the excess is spent, even if this means increasing your paycheck deductions (not sure if you guys have 401k or something similar) and living off your savings account for the money you don't get paid and then decreasing your deductions once your savings goes back down to just what you need for the emergency fund.
if you're asking for investment ideas on WSO, I'll tell you ignore everyone who gives you a stock tip or ETF strategy here. dollar cost average into some good funds (Sequoia and Tweedy Browne are 2 favorites of mine) and let it compound for 45 years.
This. SB'ed .
Keep some money out to play with stocks if you like.
I would save most of it, but if you haven't already, set up a trading account. I don't know what your end goals are, but if you want to go to the buyside, it's better to show that you're committed. Having investments to discuss with buyside interviewers makes you that much more credible, and sometimes could lead to very interesting discussions about an industry or the overall economy; the type of conversation that will get you hired.
When I first started trading, I only put in $5,000, so a token amount is fine.
Bumping this to see if anyone has any more suggestions.
Thank you for the tips thus far. The EM funds idea sounds interesting, will look into that.
Unfortunately working in IBD, ofc dont have time to be researching and trading stocks.
Also, in regards to the other points people raised:
a) yes I live with my parents. No point spending money on rent if I'm never at home, right. b) I can admit over the past year I have foregone any real social life in favour of keeping money in my pocket
Right now all I want from life is capital gains haha
You will regret this at some point in your life
wow, just wow.
Even without rent and a social life, this is insane. A top bucket 1st year is fortunate if his after-tax income is $80k, without spending a dime!
If you're after capital gains you might want to sit on the sideline for a year.
Second this. Wait a while for the correction that currently looks nearby and buy when the market tanks - even in IB, you should have enough time (if the correction isn't too soon) to research at least one company you may want to buy (if you want to move to buy-side etc).
Put $75k in gold bullion. Save the other $5k for strong drinks in case I'm wrong.
jesus dude, again with the gold? don't you work at a long only equity shop? how do those two work together?
In a diversified account with multi-year horizon, what is the argument against XME, GLD, etc. Cyclicals that seem to be in a trough now.
Probably mamas boy OP included his bonus in that sum.
Where to stick savings? (Originally Posted: 03/23/2010)
I I have a pretty decent amount of savings built up, and its all kind of just sitting around. Wanted to know what other people are doing with their savings, where they are investing it, how aggressive they are being in terms of investing it. I am not allowed to invest in individual stocks/bonds due to firm requirements so I am limited to mutual funds, ETF's, treasuries, etc. I would like something that is liquid and not too risky.
Thoughts?
Ally Savings account is where its at
They have some pretty impressive rates on their CDs, but CDs are still a pretty low-return way to go in this market. Plus there's a lot of inconvenience associated with their model, no? Aren't these the guys without physical branches?
CD rates are low, but if you are looking to do something with your cash savings they are a great idea.
Ally does not have any physical branches. The only inconvenience would be if you needed to deposit cash (you can do checks through their mobile app) or needed a cashiers check ASAP. Both of which I haven't had to do in the three years I have had them. I use Chase as my primary bank just in case of an emergency,
Mutual funds are quite liquid. In my opinion, you should contact a financial adviser, they usually have a long list of mutual fund companies with strong returns. For safety go with bond funds, there are also middle of the road one's that invest 60% equities, 40% bonds etc..then there's aggressive..
Congratulations. Easily the worst advice on this forum in the month of March.
Bond funds for safety? I think you must have meant BONG funds. Bond funds are probably the worst place to invest right now.
I've heard money manager's opinions about bond funds... most are moving client $$ into ETFs
Be careful with mutual funds though Billy Ray. Stay away from any funds that are backloaded with fees to the FAs. Also, do some due diligence on the components of the mutual funds. They are not as always as "diversified" as they lead you to believe.
I have a lot of my longer term savings in ETFs. Specifically some tech, infrastructure and international funds.
do you guys invest in ETFs through FAs or brokerage accounts (etrade)?
Gold.
I agree with themacroguy, I keep stacks of gold bars under my bed (and some in my teeth for effect) -- much safer than paper currency with hyperinflation on the horizon
@CNB90 you don't need to catch up on the latest credit news to figure out where bonds will be headed in the next few years.
@ Billy Ray - if you're looking to invest long term, do the sensible thing and construct your own portfolio with index funds. Ask yourself how much risk you can bear, and then allocate your savings among large & small cap value etfs, emerging markets, hold a bit of gold, and if you're optimistic about a certain industry - buy some industry etfs. Check out Vanguard's etf offerings, and compare them with iShares products.
For a long term investor - costs are key. Keep them low and you'll be left with more.
Thank you Edmundo. There is such a misconception that bonds are "safe" and stocks are "risky". If you watch the flow of funds into these bond funds, it's overwhelming. The public is putting all there money into bond funds with the premise that they will achieve a fixed rate of return that is safe. Rates are so low, and destined to move higher.
The biggest problem I have is people that are chasing yield down the yield curve. Rather than collect 3.66% for 10 years, they go out another 20 years on the yield curve to pick up an extra 50 bps. Maturities should be kept extremely short right now so they can be rolled over when rates move higher.
I think stocks are a good way to go, as well as emerging market bonds with short maturities.
Invest in quality blue chips like P&G and such. Many are still priced below their value and offer dividends above that of bonds
1) $8,000 checking account 2) 3-6 months living expenses in a savings account (i.e. ING) or short term CDs 3) I assume you are in your early to mid twenties so I would throw the balance of your savings into ETFs or index funds as follows
30-40% Large Cap Domestic 20% Small-Mid Cap (i.e. Russell Style Fund) 20% Emerging Markets 10-20% commodities 0-10% bonds
Assuming your company has a 401-K match you should be plowing money in there first and then building a diversified portfolio consisting of ETF/Index funds. I like Vanguard and iShares.
In a stripper's g string
SPDRs... think of them as a mutual fund without the fees.
Index funds.
2nd Index Funds (For LT Money) & ally for savings account (6 Months or So of Cash)
Whatever you do - Do not invest in bonds. I just cant see how that is a smart thing to do.
What do I do with my savings? (Originally Posted: 02/18/2016)
Hi everyone, I have a dilemma. What do I do with my savings? This is the breakdown of what I have invested vs cash
Acorns isn't a bad option. I've gotten a 2.6% return over the last year, and I haven't had to do anything. I'm sure you could get higher returns somewhere else if you were a little more active, but I don't mind 2.6% considering I haven't done anything to earn it.
I read some of their prospectuses and it seems they buy mostly into different equity and fixed-income ETFs. The ETFs obviously differ between strategies as well. It's all pretty cheap though, they charge $1 a month if you have less than $5000, or .25% annually for accounts over $5000. Not a bad deal.
https://www.adviserinfo.sec.gov/IAPD/Content/Common/crd_iapd_Brochure.a…
.
Max out your Roth IRA and 401k and dump the rest in a brokerage account (assuming you already have an emergency fund). Put them in some kind of index fund -- a mix of domestic large cap (e.g. SP500), small cap, and developed international.
Not to be aggressive, but that's actually a really bad option. Had you just bought the Vanguard S&P 500 index on January 01, 2017, you would've paid ~$7.00 for the entry trade, put your head down for 9.5 months, and you'd be up 17.33% as of this morning. And you wouldn't be subject to the intangible risks of dealing with a fledgling adviser.
Do you honestly think the 'advantage' of a Roth is still going to be around in 30yrs when you go to collect?
I was gonna say this but you beat me too it. 2.6% is pretty bad for the risk you are taking. A CD would have gotten you not much less with almost zero risk.
OP, if you're a young single girl in NYC why would you want to buy a property? I would rather have my money in equities to grow it fast than in a property which is more or less a store of wealth.
You're at the age where you don't know where you'll want/need to live in 6 months for career moves or otherwise. I don't see any point in buying a property now.
Definitely too much cash; if once you are done with all the tax advantaged accounts, I'd consider opening a brokerage account AND giving Peer to Peer Lending a good look.
Buy PTLA
Put it all on red.
When you've been a friend as long as I have, you can call him Chucky Schwab.
What should I do with my savings for SA? (Originally Posted: 05/18/2010)
As an SA this summer I'm hoping to save around $4,000. Given the current environment and an appetite for risk, where should I put my money?
Any other advice on which online brokerage services to use or anything else pertaining to personal finance for SAs would be appreciated.
Give it to me.
i use tradeking cause of how cheap trades are, 5 bucks, and .65 per contract for options
i think C at like 3.9 is a good bet
hookers and blow ofcourse what else...
ha. close. blow and baking soda. heard you can make mad moneyz in them stuffs.
haha I'm spending the remainder of my disposable income on hookerz and blow....where can I invest my money so I can afford Tiger and Spitzer's girls in a few years?
Damn, I was gonna say hookers and blow
Damn it! When I saw the title of the thread I was going to post "Hookers and Blow" and then I find out two other people already posted it............... I say invest it with the Nigerians, they have like a 1000% annualized returns.
speaking of which how much are the paychecks assuming 70k base? i'd assume they're pretty similar across the board...
Pay off student loans
start a college for your future kids
college fund
open Roth IRA and start contributing. market fundamentals are wacky so I would avoid the stock market for the time being. can buy some blue chip bond, invest in money markets, or just pay off debt. if you're williung to risk short term losses, you can buy some Citigroup... but be aware that a lot of people are expecting the bottom to drop out sometime in the near future.
Pay down student debt. Or stick it in a Roth.
^^ Best part about a Roth is you can pull out your contribution to pay for a car or business school or whatever with no penalty.
For people who are WORKING and plan to go back to school in a few years, a very shrewd tax move is to make huge 401k contributions now and then take qualifying distributions for tuition when you are in school and are being taxed at a lower rate. It makes for an effective 15-20% discount on your tuition. (More if you plan on going to a school in a lower-tax jurisdiction than NYC.)
Having as much fun partying your last year of college because you know you won't be for a long time after that?
^^^^ Probably where the money will end up going. But I'd like to put at least some of that cash to work. Plus I know if I leave it in a checking/savings account I'll go straight through it.
If I lock it up in some online brokerage, I'd have even more cash for, say, a month abroad before starting FT. The worst that could happen is I lose some money. The worst that could happen is I spend it all at the bars and countless other pointless shit I don't need in one semester. I
f the volatility keeps up for the rest of '10 and I limit my losses, I think I could return 10% maybe more in the last 5-6 months of the year.
....and speaking of travel, any ideas on where I should spend that month abroad??
Brazil's not too bad
Buy a pound of chronic and sell it by the eighth
You think treasuries are underpriced? Can you explain your thinking?
What kind of savings/retirement? (Originally Posted: 05/05/2008)
If someone was a career banker at a BB firm starting today, what kind of retirement savings would he/she have 20 years form now, assuming a normal bonus and promotion schedule, and they saved 1/2 their bonus each year. Also, what is the normal promotion schedule in I-Banking?
I know this probably seems like a stupid question to those who are bankers (or even in an MBA), but I don't work in the business (or go to B-school) and I was wondering.
Thanks
Geez, impossible to know.
Could be anywhere from a few million to 50 million.
What is a realistic pay schedule for 20 years anyway?
I dunno. Thats why I asked.
assuming you get to md, it would still be pretty variable depending on how much business you bring in...
Well i guess the best assumption is a pessimistic one
What is a realistic base + bonus for 3rd year associate, VP, Executive Director, and MD?
There is a pretty good compensation survey that will tell you what different years make: http://www.wallstreetcomps.com/2007_Wall_Street_Comps_Survey.pdf
As others have pointed out though, a 20 year total is very hard to estimate. By about 10 years in you will hopefully be promoted to MD (although it could take several more years) and then once you are an MD you can literally make anywhere from $1M/yr to >$50 M/yr. Admittedly, the guys who make $50+ M are very rare, but from what I've heard most MDs make somewhere in the $2-$5M range. Over ten years that's $20M-$50M, which is still a huge range. And that's not even taking into account the market conditions/changes that could occur over a 20 year span.
That is a fantastic survey
All depends on the market
Index funds. Sounds like you're starting a regular investment plan (i.e. x percent of paycheck) rather than putting in a huge chunk of money all at once. In that case, than waiting for the "right time" to enter the market is, in fact, trying to time the market, and you could lose just as much upside as avoiding downside..
Just start investing now, on regular intervals, and you're essentially dollar cost averaging into the market anyways.
Now, if you're putting in $100k, that's different. But even so, it's better to invest some now and come up with a timeframe for the rest. Pushing off investing entirely is rarely the right answer. If markets dip, just don't sell. There's never a perfect time to enter the markets, everything is hindsight, start getting some money to work.
Investing savings in structured investments vs stockmarket (Originally Posted: 07/28/2012)
How are you guys investing your bonuses/ money saved from internships ? that you wont need for 2-3 years
Are Structured Investments worth it ? or is the risk-reward ratio too in favour of the Bank ?
I prefer having a fixed income at the end so I can plan around it but at the same time dont want to get ripped off.
This. The best strategy available for passive investors is to simply dollar cost average. Want to echo BreakingOutOfPWM that you should be investing even if you think the market is rich. At the beginning of this year, had you invested, you would've seen double digit returns by now. Had you not, you would've missed out entirely.
If you're really concerned that the market is hitting a peak, then I would suggest diverting some (although not most) of the dollar-cost-averaging money into dry powder, and saving that on the side for when you see bargain opportunities. That said, that's a more active approach to investing which you said you wanted to stay out of.
All this said, I want to challenge your notion that you "don't consider myself skilled enough to select specific stocks so I tend to prefer ETFs and Indexes, but I have considered purchasing a few larger, high dividend blue chips as an alternative. Either that or treasuries which I do think are currently underpriced"
Seems strange that you don't feel capable of selecting specific securities, however you feel secure in your judgment that entire swaths of the market are either under/overpriced.
I know how it is to feel the way you do - I also had a lot of money piling up in my accounts first year or two out of school. At a certain point I said "This is ridiculous" and decided to have 60-70% invested in low cost indices, with a little of that in growth industry-focused ETFs (for instance, AI/online payments focused ETFs). The remaining 30-40% I began investing in shorter term trades, after playing around with an investopedia fake account for a while and convincing myself I knew how not to be a gambler. Turns out I'm not bad at making certain types of short term plays, have done many at this point and typically experience a per trade gain of 5-10%, sometimes more, but never a loss. Buy low, sell high, don't get into anything that is too exotic, smells of fraud, lawsuits, or the like. Know how to eyeball a 10q or 8K and decide whether there's something funky going on or whether this is essentially a functional, profitable business. Know your appetite for risk and don't exceed it. Most of all, if you want to get good at the markets, watch them. Familiarize yourself with the tickers. You may not be a machine learning algorithm with a strict methodology for entry and exit points, but despite what all the news says, there is a decent percentage of the population that, if paying attention, can make money in the markets without sophisticated algorithms.
EDIT: On the subject of brokerages - I see a surprising amount of love for fintech-y solutions like acorn, robin hood, and the like on WSO nowadays. I can only assume this is because there's a lot of young users that view this stuff as a great idea.
Look, I understand the allure of $0 commission trading, and it's not like you care that it's only mobile since you were weaned on a phone. But I want to caution you and others against investing your retirement with untested brokers/advisors. Sure, today these enterprises seem like the venmo of investing. Go talk to anyone that's been in the markets even casually for a few decades and they will tell you that it's not a matter of whether, but when circumstances will arise that will astound you and shake your faith in some investing startup.
Caps on daily withdrawals from your account in a bank run? That's happened. Flash crashes? Happened. Major brokerages like Schwab or Etrade, etc. having huge system malfunctions during an acutely bad day in the markets? Yep. Don't be a fool and entrust your nest egg to some startup that offers you free trades when you should be trading in blocks of hundreds if not thousands of dollars, anyway. The market for major brokerages is plenty competitive right now, is $6.95 a trade really so much to part with for substantially less brokerage risk?
cash is king
Yeah, structured products are not bad. Obviously, you want the yield to be above inflation. Check out a high yield fund
What if the Bank goes bust ? Banks nomally invest 85% of your cash in 0% bond and invest the rest in stockmarket.
Some people in 08 invested in bank A. Bank A buys a bond from lehman and people lost all their cash even though the stock part didnt crash. as Struc invest are not protected by FDIC all in the pursuit of 5% extra intrest
With stocks its more transparent and you know your exposure but weaker returns
You still think its worth it ?.
So stick to bonds and high yield stocks ?
How easy is it to buy eg 4 year bond for energy company just 1 year before it expires
I think this is a post for thebrofessor
vanguard wellesley
Looks interesting, would this be a viable strategy if you're looking at a 5 year period?
Curious what monkeys who know they're going to attend B-school and need to save do? I guess an s&p 500 etf is too risky (just incase there is a recession/severe correction), so do they leave it in a high yielding savings account, us treasuries, corporate bonds, REITs etc?
If you're within two years of pulling out money it should be in cash or shorter term bonds. Definitely not a REIT if youre going to be liquidating (go look at what VGSIX did from '07-'09 if you want to know why).
I'm fully invested in equities, for the long-term. Any spare cash I have goes into one of three low expense ratio ETFs that I like, lacking any other ideas. Since they're super liquid, once I find a new value play, I'll liquidate part of the ETF, and allocate it into the stock I like. Full disclosure, I have 2 stocks representing 43% of my total investments, and 57% is split between the ETFs.
I live in New York City and throw excess cash that isn't in equities into a NY-based municipal bond fund with a 0.19% expense ratio and 2.09% yield. It is a Vanguard fund and I use Vanguard therefore the actual transaction is free of charge. Pays out monthly and I re-invest the payouts (triple tax free). It's pretty much the best I've found as a city resident when you factor tax/yield.
I was just thinking about this strategy this past week. Glad to hear it's working.
Any idea what the interest would be to purchase these munis with margin...too cost prohibitive that would yield negative leverage?
Double deck blackjack at the bellagio
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