Is Trading right for me? Or am I in fantasy land?
Hey,
Right now I am a university student looking to go into trading. Probably something like FI Options at a BB, but we will see where I can get my foot in the door.
Basically the appeal of trading to me is the following:
playing the "trading game" - the harshest, most challenging, exciting, dramatic, mentally and emotionally stimulating "game" (yes, I appreciate how real the risk is) in the world.
the trading floor "meat-head culture" - basically the insane high-pressure environment and atmosphere (shit-talking, go hard or go home, etc)
Now I realise that I have a highly glorified vision in my head, and that reality will be very different. I am not actually expecting to step into some Wall St. Hollywood movie, but I would like to have a challenging and exciting trading job in a high-pressure 'hardcore' competitive environment.
I was recently chatting to a trader, and the impression I got from what he was saying was this:
- these days a lot of marketing making/ flow traders (e.g. non-prop BB traders) are being replaced by MIT geeks, and the "trading game" has been replaced by the aforementioned geeks programming algorithms.
How true is this? Whats the future of flow trading and marketing making? Which desks are being replaced by computers? Which desks are the most "meat-headed"? If flow trading is being replaced by computers, whats the future of propriety trading and how do they (prop desks) recruit if flow trading requires a completely different skill-set (programming)?
Basically, what I want to know is where can I find the the experience I'm looking for? Just to clarify, I am pretty good at mathematics, and more then happy to apply my quantitative knowledge; but I'm not interested in programing.
- the trading floor culture is dead, and these days its a very corporate and "professional" environment. I guess this point is being discussed in another thread, which I will be keeping tabs on. Which desks and/or banks have the kind of culture I'm into? I guess this is just a repeat of my previous question: where can I find the the experience I'm looking for?
So, to summarize basically I am interested in finding whether the kind of experience I dream of still exists, and if so, where can I find it (in particular, what desks and/or banks)?
Thank you
I'm also interested in this
The chances of getting on a trading desk at a BB w/o having need to do any sort of programming are slim, if they even exist at all. While no hardcore C++/SQL knowledge is required on most BB trading desks (excluding quant roles, algo/high-frequency trading desks), simple VBA with excel to automate processes are still required to some extent - if you happen to be the junior kid on the block, chances are you'd be the one doing this.
i dont think this is true at all. I trade mostly rates and FX on the buyside and none of the salesman/traders i talk to are programmers at all.
I meant the sell-side...
Honestly, I wouldn't even really count using VBA to do EOD processes or market monitors as "programming" because its just automating simple tasks, not really relating to trading itself. I would say some of the younger traders have programming knowledge (especially if they came out of a MFE for example), however after seeing several desks (from cash to exotics) I don't recall a single person working on any real programming tasks other than the aforementioned market monitors. In my experience, the quants usually do all of the programming stuff, not the traders.
Most of the electronic trading occurs in very liquid markets, most of FI Options for example, simply is not.
UBS runs a fully automated trading system in the OTC and OTCBB markets, certainly not what you would consider very liquid. However, sometimes you can lock them and make some easy money if you know what you're doing so it can definitely be argued that in certain instances an actual person has an advantage over a computer
indeed, i was talking about sell-siders. I know a bit of VBA and it has helped me in my career because as Revsly said in the past when i was trying to impress people and advance from quasi ops jobs I could help older guys automate processes and maybe retrieve data more efficiently...but thats it really. Being able to trade or make markets really has nothing to do with programming, they are two entirely seperate skills except at a few high frequency algo shops.
So what are we coming down to? Re-defining what constitutes programming and VBA?
Obviously, VBA's are used mainly to automate processes as opposed to revolutionising the way things get done, but I'd be truly surprised if there were too many desks around that did not use a single macro/VBA-engineered process which is essentially handled by the interns/analysts on the desk.
I must have been living on a different planet at my BB otherwise...
You're missing the point. The author was discussing "desks being replaced by computers" as in algo-trading, not using VBA to calc up the desk's PNL.
Look who's talking. Read between the lines, mate. Why do you even want to expand on algo-trading to someone who explicitly tells you he/she is not interested in programming?
So strictly speaking, are you suggesting VBA doesn't constitute programming?
to the 2nd question, I would agree that trading cultures are much much tamer then a few decades back
Dude, the author asked which desks are being replaced by computers/programming. He further said he was not interested in programming. I answered the question, not going off on tangents.
I'm not saying VBA is not programming, however the piecing together of code snippets in VBA any mildly intelligent and capable human being could do. You are not a "programmer," you just happen to be using some code to make background processes easier/more efficient. I would say most people learn it on the job by seeing examples online, its not something you need prior knowledge in (though of course it will help you do it faster).
So are you oblivious to the fact that the author specifically stated he has no interest in programming? Or simply turning a blind eye to the obvious before jumping on a moot point?
How does that detract from the fact VBA remains an integral part of most, if not all, BB S&T desks? As mentioned previously, if you're telling me VBA is not programming (in which case you must be delusional), then that's another matter entirely...
Relax, I'm not attacking you. To your first point, I was just trying to point out to the author that your primary job as an analyst is not programming. There may be aspects to it, but they are generally rather simple and if not, are given to those who want to do it.
Of course VBA is an integral part of a lot of desks (but not all), and I don't know about your bank but all the important things are built by actual programmers and quants at mine. I think we are disagreeing over definitions, we are mostly saying the same thing.
Obviously, the culture of the place you're at differs greatly from mine - there's hardly such thing as "given to those who want to do it" where I am.
As mentioned in my first post, you just have to brace yourself for VBA assignments (however simple you define it to be; I've seen my fair share of folks struggling with this) come what may. It's quite another matter entirely if you're talking about SQL, C/C++ where clearly such requirements would need to be spelt out prior to you being hired should the role require such expertise.
In short, clearly as I've indicated in my second post, the only point of contention as to what constitutes programming surrounds whether you regard VBA as a language in itself (which I obviously do)...
Haha I think that's the difference, I generally don't (at least with regards to tasks I've seen/had to do) coming from a C++/C# background. I guess we've also shown it depends on the bank.
In general if you can program to make stuff easier for people they will be appreciative.
"marketing making" in o.p... this made me laugh
Hey,
Thanks for the replies everyone.
I'm sorry that my original post was not clear enough. What I intended to mean by "not interested in programming" is that I want to trade myself, rather than programming a computer to do it. Minor programming to enhance my, or others, ability to trade (e.g. VBA automation) is no problem at all.
"In my experience, the quants usually do all of the programming stuff, not the traders."
"Most of the electronic trading occurs in very liquid markets, most of FI Options for example, simply is not."
So there is a clear line between quants (programmers) and traders? For more liquid markets, there are more quants than traders on the desks because of the increase in electronic trading, whilst for less liquid market the traders still outnumber the quants greatly because computers don't know how to trade these products? Is this correct?
Are all desks eventually going to be electronic, even ones focused on less liquid markets? How many new quants do they hire for every new trader?
Basically, is there a long-term future for a non-quant traders who are just starting out?
@BnewzSrumr
Typo :P
Of course, you're making it sound like we are in the Matrix.....
Strategies are different at every Fund/Bank/Firm, none will ever be completely taken over by computers, prop traders may shrink but you have to hedge your trading subroutines with human desks. I can't imagine a firm being successful doing just one or the other.
IMO the best firms that are emerging are combining the two, and those that find the right balance between the two will be the most successful.
Agreed. OP: You obviously don't want to be sitting in front of a monitor all day typing away C++ and Java. Those quant jobs are further from the money. I'm in the same boat as you. You want to have control over what you're trading, but you want to utilize computers to help you increase efficiency and trading speed. The line between quants and traders is getting blurred, as m.c. said, but the best and most successful traders will be able to integrate programming with trading. If you aren't willing to "get your hands dirty" with programming, you're shutting yourself out of a lot of opportunities.
bloodbath of the quants... look it up
Agree with a lot of the points already stated.
IMO the distinction between quant and traders is growing more blurred, particularly in highly-liquid products (Cash, spot FX, etc.). A lot of banks these days (GS, MS) have a strat & trader model where they have a group of dedicated quants that develop the underlying models but give the traders the flexibility how to utilize the models/tools. It's sort of like a tool box of custom approaches and traders has the low touch flexibility to change his "trading strategy" to accommodate the market and his particular view.
Agree with M.C. Trader that the best traders in this context are those with a quant background that can roll up his/her sleeves and take a high touch approach and program and modify the trading models themselves.
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